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Tisha-1
writes:DearCupid sees many stories about men and women who find out after they are married that their partners have more sexual experience or partners than was initially understood. It is a very real problem for the one who is devastated to discover the news that the wife or husband was not in fact a virgin prior to the marriage.Or for some reason, the known sexual history of the partner suddenly starts to bother the other one. Vivid images start playing in his or her head and the relationship becomes at risk.Some aunts and uncles on the site have worked through these problems, successfully, and have emerged on the other side with a perspective and some practical advice to offer.Others seem to be stuck in the cycle of blame and shame and cannot break free from the anger that has consumed their thoughts.Why am I writing this? Because all too often, I see these anons posting over and over again on these threads, offering no practical advice, just anger and targeting aunts and uncles who might be suggesting something other than anger as a solution.So HERE'S your thread to argue. THIS is the place to hash it out. Here you can debate and discuss. BUT, it must be respectful of the aunt holding a differing viewpoint. You must keep in mind that you may disagree with another aunt, but keep it cordial. If you can't manage that, don't bother posting, it just shows that you aren't really able to offer helpful, constructive advice to the people who come here hurting and in need of assistance.So here's my challenge. Let's come up with a PRACTICAL and HELPFUL guide for those who have discovered this devastating news--what tips, advice, suggestions, solutions do we have on offer?
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reader, Sophocles  +, writes (18 October 2013):
One thing nobody seems to be considering is that retroactive jealousy might be part of a broader, underlying psychological problem.
After some time wondering what the hell could be wrong with me, I have been told by the local "Complex Needs Service" I probably have Borderline Personality Disorder, & possibly Narcissistic & Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorders as well. At first I'd imagined the extreme retroactive jealousy I'd been suffering about my girlfriend's brief one-night-stand phase was a stand-alone, OCD-type thing, similar to hypochondriasis, for which I'd successfully had CBT some years before. But CBT proved woefully ineffective. I flirted with the idea the real problem was alcoholism; after all, it was only when drunk that I raged at my girlfriend about her past. But sobriety didn't stop jealous thoughts & fantasies torturing me day in, day out. Neither was it clear why my girlfriend's count-'em-on-one-hand flings horrified me while my own much more numerous encounters with prostitutes counted as no more than a harmless past foible.
Now I can make sense of the jealousy as part of the Borderline's or Narcissist's characteristic shame-dumping, projection, exaggerated fear of abandonment, underlying feelings of worthlessness, emotional disregulation, love-testing, & relationship sabotage. And I am getting treatment for a pervasive & deep-seated psychological problem that RJ is merely the main current manifestation of.
I urge anybody suffering - & making his girlfriend suffer - from retroactive jealousy to have a long hard look at himself and his overall conduct in and feelings about relationships and himself. If you are swinging from anger & hatred to lovingness & "what the hell was all that about?" in a matter of hours on a regular basis, that is a classic indication of Borderline Personality Disorder. The essential pathology is that the Borderline cannot control his emotions. Bad enough, but the emotions in question tend to be misaligned with reality because the borderline is hypervigilant for signs of impending rejection or denigration. The Borderline also tends to be highly impulsive. So we have out-of-control emotions misaligned with reality, that we act on impulsively.
For us, & for anybody in a relationship with us, this is a recipe for HELL.
The good news is that BPD is TREATABLE, & most people improve with the right therapy.
Check out this description of BPD & if it sounds like you, then please, get help.
http://www.mind.org.uk/mental_health_a-z/8037_borderline_personality_disorder
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reader, thoushaltovercome  +, writes (1 October 2013):
As someone who's going through a horrible wave of retroactive jealousy, I would like to ask those people who have not experienced it for what it is, or who have not experienced its devastating effect to the fullest, to pause for a second. Please understand that none of us 'macho guys' want to go through this hell. None of us choose to dig in the girlfriend's/wife's past just for the heck of it, or experience this burning pain, this miserable cloud, this all-consuming anger turned inwards. We do not enjoy condemning other people - much less the women we are with. But some psychological condition is at play, and it may well be considered a kind of 'disease'. It's surprising how little is known about it. It's scary to find that only recently there are some internet sites with information or advise about this condition. On the other hand, I'm glad not many people suffer from this, or at least the proportion is not that high; because this is living hell. So, what do I have to share about this?I have recognized it in myself as a neurotic symptom, a compulsive habit and psychological complex. It has little to do with the girl I'm with: I remember having experienced this 'beast' with almost every girlfriend - to various degrees. But it's heavier with women who have had casual sex, one-night stands, or just had sex with a friend a few times, or who appear to somehow have been more sexually active than myself. So it's only a matter of scale, but the problem remains with me, not with the girl. It's very important to realise this because it has little to do with value judgement, and a lot to do with our psychological make up.Because I have resolved to deal with this - and I believe you can learn to deal with this 'beast' and why not, even overcome it - I have looked deep inside myself to get some insight about its cause. One factor that I'm recognizing as a great contributor is the fact that I have experienced 'late' sexual activity, even though in my fantasy I was the rock star who scored lots of chicks. Whereas my fantasy life included free sex with any woman, in my real life I was very repressed. This was due to family and society, but mostly an inability to claim what I wanted, to express myself, and to communicate naturally with the opposite sex. I remember feeling extremely shy and tense around girls that I really liked. If I happened to have an erection in a public place or bus, I was horrified: so everyone here will think I'm a pervert or dirty. To cut it short, a lot of this repression went on to teenage years and later. The conflict starts when faced with a woman who has not had the same repression or inhibition in her past life, and therefore has experimented more or has been with many guys. This sparks an almost unconscious war within some part of my psyche: so she was able to screw around with other guys, but I could not do that freely with other girls. You feel you are in an inferior and unfair position towards your girlfriend. Then comes a certain anger or jealousy.Anyway, I'm not able right now to provide a thorough analysis, but I have discovered in myself that the root cause is not her 'promiscuity' but rather my lack of it. Or a conflict between the two, except this conflict takes place within my mind, and that's when hell begins. You can't talk to her about it because any additional information only fuels the destructive fire; you can't question her past behaviour 'cause she will become defensive; and it takes a lot of tact to communicate to her that this neurotic conflict is a condition and that you are a sufferer, not a judge. I saw a brilliant post on this site, which I think might help all those who are struggling with this horrible condition. It's by a poster namet Yos, and I'm reposting it here, hopefully will be of some help to others just like it was to me. I hope more constructive advise will flow so we can take positive steps to get out of this toxic pollution. Cheers.I'm writing this as someone who has experienced crippling retroactive jealousy at one stage of my life, and over time overcome it. Noting that having done so, it's not a permanent guarantee of being free of it, but rather a place where some ongoing effort is required not to fall back. But I am thankfully free of the obsession, the jealousy, and the agony. It was the most painful experience of my life, and coming through it changed my personality and identity deeply.I also post frequently here about it, and have read countless accounts, as well as had direct correspondence with numerous men who are suffering from this.I'll state my overall feelings on this surprisingly common and often horribly crippling and painful condition. In other words, this post is a statement of opinion only, without focussing much on the justification:- This is different for men and women. Mostly due to the different nature of male and female jealousy, but also for other reasons. This makes empathy about it, and communication about it particularly difficult between the sexes. Neither is 'right', but we are different, and that creates misunderstanding. This misunderstanding can quickly destroy relationships, as well as leading to nasty arguments between men and women on the subject in places such as this site. It also means the majority of women "don't get it" when it comes to understanding why men get so extremely tortured by this. No ones fault, that's just how it is. Men also suffer from this much more than women.- It's not about how many past partners someone had, or what they did. I've seen this caused by a single kiss. And frequently men in their thirties are in agony over their wives having had perhaps one or two partners before them, which by almost any standard is very few.- I believe this condition is essentially a form of obsessive compulsive disorder. The victim becomes compulsively obsessed with visualising their partners past sexual activities. These visualised images trigger jealousy and all the standard attendant jealous behaviours: intrusive questioning, distrust, paranoia, imagining things that didn't happen, and discounting positive information whilst over-weighting negative information. As well as mental anguish. The OCD keeps the condition continuous, triggering the jealous emotions and behaviour over and over in a vicious circle. It can also make it very hard to communicate to someone about, as when they are in their obsessive jealous state they are not generally open to much meaningful input; instead being caught up in their own inner turmoil.- It happens mostly in loving relationships. Jealousy is shadow of love: the more we love, the more powerful the jealousy. It is often triggered at a point when a relationship becomes more committed. This makes the condition particularly tragic: since it is usually damaging what are loving and intimate relationships. ie, the good ones.- It's not rational. The most common mistake is to blame the person experiencing this. We must understand it's not a choice on the part of the victim, and that the OCD and jealousy lead the rationalising of the situation. The person experiencing this is not choosing to have these feelings and thoughts, no more than the schizophrenic is choosing to become insane, or the narcissist is choosing their delusions. Blame is often flung at the retroactively jealous person, which is the wrong thing to do.Because it's not rational, 'thinking your way out of it' is not possible. All the thinking does is feed the OCD, it is counter-productive. Each thought just triggers more obsessive visualisation, and more jealousy. This makes talking about it dangerous, since conversation requires thought, and those thoughts can trigger another attack.- It's nothing to do with morality. As part of an attempt to grapple with their emotions, men frequently resort to 'moral judgements' and labels. Whore, slut, impure, etc. These are an attempt to make sense of their feelings, and to justify the illusions their jealousy is creating. Clutching at straws. But morality is essentially a complex set of rational rules, and as I have said, retroactive jealousy has nothing to do with rationality.Personally I try to be highly sympathetic when helping men with this condition, but when it comes to moral judgements I will be very direct and intolerant of this specific part of their behaviour. Why? Because at the core of all morality, no matter it's particular flavour, lies empathy, compassion, forgiveness, and a letting go of judgment. Truly seeing the others point of view. Walking in their shoes. It's essential that anyone suffering from this condition understands this, and does not use morality as a weapon to judge, belittle and hurt, which is sadly usually the case.- As a fusion of OCD and jealousy, this condition is biological in it's root causes, not cultural. Discussions about this often get caught up in cultural trends, double standards, modern society, feminism, etc. These are all dead ends. In terms of practical advice, I generally believe these things:- It's best not to go there. Don't ask questions, don't dig into the past. The more that is known, the more mental material there is to obsess over. Each additional piece of information is another log on the fire of the obsessive jealousy. However there are some exceptions: I do believe understanding someones emotional history is valuable in overcoming this, but this precludes the type of factual interrogation that retroactive jealousy seems to almost always lead to. - Breaking up generally doesn't help. It may stop the immediate pain, but the condition is an inner one, and will return in future relationships, unless that person finds someone they consider 'pure'. Which admittedly does happen sometmise. For this reason I usually try to coach the victim to try to overcome it: it's a life condition and they may as well deal with it right away. On top of that, they're usually in love with the person they're jealous of, and love is precious, rare and worth saving.- As for the solution, I agree with much of what Miamine has said below. Buddhist meditation is a very viable treatment. So is any kind of activity that teaches us to let go of obsessive thoughts and free our minds. Personally I found tai chi extremely valuable, but similar things like yoga etc are also very worth considering. There are many other tips and tricks that can help in this vein, such as mantras, visualisations and personal rituals. The aim is to refocus the mind away from the obsessive loop it is trapped in, and onto another path.Since this is essentially a form of OCD, the standard treatments for OCD are also worth considering. This can include use of anti-depressants. The problem with the standard treatments for OCD is that, like regular treating OCD, they are often not particularly effective. OCD is a powerful disability, and required deep therapy to really beat. It takes time, a great therapist, and great determination. Unfortunately a relationship can often be irreversibly damaged in the mean time.This is why I believe approaches in the category of meditation and tai chi are better: they can have a more immediate effect which can be felt relatively quickly and bring optimism and hope instead of the state of despair sufferers are usually in. But also this kind of approach is good for another reason:I believe that in the end, to beat retroactive jealousy, it is necessary to change oneself a deep level. To let go of the embedded beliefs that are fuelling the obsession and jealousy. The (usually childhood-based) baggage that gives us the insecurities and patterns that make us vulnerable to retroactive jealousy. But to literally change who we are is possibly the most scary thing any of us ever have to undertake in our lives. We cling to our identity as the one true constant in our lives. When we realise that we must change, our lives become a sea of confusion and disorientation. We pull back from that cliff and retreat to our comfortable pattern: in this case retroactive jealousy.This is something therapists often talk about: that the true barrier to being 'cured' is our own desire not to change. We cling to ourselves.This is why meditation, tai chi, yoga, and the like can be effective. Because at their core they focus on the realisation that there is no 'I'. That our identities are an illusion and that by letting go of that illusion we can set ourselves free. We can free ourselves from the painful cycles of life, from 'samsara' as the Buddhists call it, and become at peace with ourselves. This is the prime objective of meditation.The way out of retroactive jealousy take a conscious choice: to choose to become someone who does not care about our partners past. But to make that choice means that we must become a different person: namely the person we would be if we did not care. It's that fear of change that is the true barrier. Second,
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reader, Joego +, writes (7 March 2013):
Retroactive jealousy may exist, and I'm currently going through the symptoms now, related to one specific event in my wife's past. However I believe it is certainly a weakness that can be overcome. I just read about it for the first time last night and can't believe how some people have such an immature and negative outlook. I got depressed reading people's negativity. The human mind can overcome any obstacle, it may be difficult but you have to keep that positive faith. There are grandparents out there finding love again, imagine the amount of past they have. It is not about the amount of experiences you have had, it's about your willingness to completely liberate yourself with your current partner, learn how to love what they have done and experience it for yourself with them. The fact is if you can get over any of your wife's past, you can get over all of it.
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reader, anonymous, writes (12 October 2012): I have had this since i was in college--a long time: )
I don't want to crush hope but I have found that it never really goes away forever--it comes and goes depending on what's going on in your life, how you feel about yourself, how far you can separate yourself from triggers.
If you are constantly running into old boyfriends, you don't really have a chance
I have tried therapy, meds of all kinds...this has even resulted in a divorce
And, Thanks to all who help with rational thinking but, forget it, it's not rational when the thoughts and questions begin to spin in one's head.
I'd like to get your help and attack this from another angle:
what do we all have in common?
I'll start:
I had a super tough dad--basically we lived in fear of his wrath and he made us feel small.
so the resulting insecurity is not unexpected
when i did have a crush or cheat on my first wife it was much worse- i think it's guilt and the notion that if I could feel for someone else, she must, MUST HAVE!.... on and on
When my Dad came back from Viet Nam after a couple years, i was little but I'd imagine i had my mom all to myself then "the former man" came back
Freud would love this one..
I have had people tell me this is a sign of being secretly gay--if that's true it's a bag secret in my case .. don't think so
I'd love any comparisons similarities. Maybe together we can find common reasons and work on them?
I have found on e drug that has helped but it has opened up all kinds of new problems. I don't want to post it because, if you're like me, you will run to this solution and it's a band aid on an amputation.
I am now married for 12 years, together for 15--with 3 kids, a career, house, cars, etc
I am determined not to allow this to undo me again
If anyone has a trick, please let me know. This is one of the "bad times"
Anyway, let's talk
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reader, Sophocles +, writes (22 August 2012):
I'm currently suffering from retroactive jealousy about my new girlfriend's past and am determined to get over it. I empathise with most of what other sufferers have said, but it's important to bear some salient points in mind. The number-one thing is that your partner is NOT accountable to you for ANYTHING they did before they entered a committed relationship with you, let alone for anything they did before you showed any interest in them, let alone for anything they did before you even knew them. If they have had one-night stands - and it is usually the one-night stands that get to you, even if there weren't that many, were clearly only a phase, happened when she was on the rebound, etc. - & you are struggling to understand how your sexual relationship can be "special" as a result, ask yourself - did you ever have one-night stands? Do they make the relationship less "special" for YOU? Ask yourself, did your partner want to repeat her sexual experience with any of her one-night stands? Does she want to repeat her sexual experience with YOU? Did she fall in love with any of her one-night stands? Has she fallen in love with YOU? Did she give up having sex with other people after any of her one-night stands? Did she give up having sex with other people after sleeping with YOU? If she wants to repeat sex with you, has fallen in love with you, and doesn't want sex with anybody else, these are pretty "special" things about YOUR sexual relationship that never applied to anybody she had a one-night stand with. As against that, you have the relatively trivial counter that maybe she was prepared to have sex with the one-night stands more quickly than she did with you. But were you even available when you met her? Did you show any interest in her? You can bet the one-night stands did. She was prepared to have sex easily with them when you were out of the equation. With you IN the equation, she's not prepared to have sex with them AT ALL. She's doing it WITH YOU instead. YOU HAVE WON. Be happy.
Can't be happy with a promiscuous girl? BUT if she's being faithful to you, SHE'S NOT PROMISCUOUS, & YOU are the reason she's not. Perhaps if she'd found you earlier, she'd NEVER have been promiscuous.
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reader, JealousySucks  +, writes (22 April 2012):
I've just discovered dearcupid, and it is quite a relief that many other people (mostly guys apparently) have the same problem as I do. That doesn't solve it for me unfortunately though.
I can see that it's been quite a while since this thread was active last, but I hope someone will read it and will be able to help me find some course of action, because what I (and my girlfriend too) am going through is absolutely horrible.
I apologize for the length of this beforehand, but I really need to get it all off my chest, whether anyone wants to read it or not, I just need to get it out in words.
I have been with my current girlfriend for a year. It started out online, and after a number of months we decided to meet up (we'd seen each other on pictures and webcam etc). Now, she is british, I am danish, so I took a flight over and we had an amazing week. We are both rather insecure people (and I have no doubt that this contributes hugely to the problem), but we truly love each other. However, when we admitted that there was probably more in this than friendship, she also disclosed that she'd come out of a relationship 4-5 months before, and wasnt completely over it. I was a mixture of over the clouds with the fact that she was attracted to me too, and scared half way to death due to her not being over her ex. But I really was very attracted to her, and I dont regret for even a second that I decided to go for it.
So, this guy she was with before me, he was swedish and he'd been her first sexual partner (at age 19, we met when she was 20), so the only one before me. She says that she fell in love and went over, and she felt ready to lose her virginity and she trusted him, so that's what happened. She was with him in Sweden for 8 days but had known him a couple of months before.
After she'd gotten home, she was obviously very happy and genuinely felt that she loved him, but they'd broken up a few months later. Now, they ended up breaking up because he thought she was being too clingy basically, and she was devastated.
However, it goes with the story that the guy actually doesnt come across as a total asshole to me, because there still was a lot of back and forth between them online for months after, and I do think that he genuinely did feel something for her and wasnt just after the sex. More on that in a bit. He'd call/write when he was drunk and say he loved her, and then say he didnt when he got sober, so she was obviously very confused.
He was in the army, and he went to Afghanistan about 4 months before she met me. So we hit it off while he was away.
As it so happens, he came home while I was visiting her the first time, and he wrote her that he was safely home, and she wrote something along the lines of "I am happy that you are safe but I am with someone else". He got arsy about it and was like "well I just thought you'd like to know I was safe, but Im sorry for saying that Im alive. Have fun with the guy" and the way he said it he made it sound like she'd done wrong just because she wouldnt wait around for him to make up his mind. However it affected her a lot, and she texted him back and forth and her mood was terrible a couple of days after. In the end I did something I'm not proud of, and I've done it more than once since. I checked her messages and at some point she said something along the lines of "Dont be like this, I love you. But you left me and I couldnt wait for you forever". And she actually did write "I love you". I didnt confront her with it however, as I didnt know what to say. Especially the fact that I'd checked her phone.
I kinda forgot about all of it for a time, and the next months I actually didnt have any trouble. She had a bit of hangups with my past sometimes actually (I've been with 2 others before her, the first was basically a one night stand with a girl who was a virgin too, the other a very short lived relationship (1-2 months)). None of the other two girls I was in love with though. I know it makes me sound horrible, but I think it was more just the affirmation as I was quite late in becoming active (first time was at 19) and also very insecure.
However the girl I am with now I loved right from the get go. I know things such as love at first sight is generally disbelieved by most, but it’s nearest I can come to describing it. I knew within a very short time that this was a girl I could spend forever with. I realize how naïve that sounds, but she is just an amazing person. And as time passes, I love her more and more, and I feel closer and closer to her.
But that is also part of the problem. Because the closer I got, the more her past with this guy started bothering me. I would imagine her doing the stuff with him that she does with me, and it drives me to absolute insanity. I’ve heard her with it too, because it always comes out as if I blame her. Which Im not even sure if I do. I just don’t know what is wrong up there. When I think about it rationally, of course a beautiful girl with an amazing personality like her has had plenty of others in line, and I should be (and am) happy that she is with me over everyone else. And the fact that she’s only had ONE other guy, that’s nothing compared to some. But nothing helps. It feels like it is eating me up inside. Even as I am writing this I have a feeling of pressure in my chest and I feel like crying but the tears just don’t come.
We have access to eachothers social medias (facebook and another one we use) and again, I am not proud of this, but I once ended up going through her messages, all the way back to when she was with this guy. I found messages she’d written to close female friends about how she’d lost her virginity and it was so special (there was nothing graphical in it thank god). And it’s just pure self torture. It hurt so bad reading it, yet I kept reading more and more until I actually had to go and throw up I felt that ill.
I’ve talked to her a whole lot about it all. But I’ve asked for way too many details. I know what stuff she has done with him (all very normal stuff, normal sex + oral) and we’ve discussed everything through. There isn’t really a lot more she could tell me, and obviously she does it because she trusts me. She’s told me that she did love him, but that she doesn’t anymore, and that I am the only one she wants. And I trust her on that.
Anyway, at some point the stuff I’d read came out, and we talked about that too. She forgave me for checking her things out. But what I read has just stuck in there. Even if I hadn’t read it, I’d just have some ideas about the same sort of thing in there. I also once found pictures of them together that she’d forgotten to delete (to be fair, they were in the recycling bin on her computer which she didn’t know about emptying actually), nothing of a sexual nature (she aint that kind of girl luckily) but just seeing her smiling the beautiful smile I love so much while with someone else, it borderline makes me want to kill myself when I think of it.
She’s been amazing all way through though. She has supported me when I’ve been down, and forgiven me all the hard times I’ve given her. And yet I keep doing it, and when it happens it just turns everything to shit for a while. Unfortunately I can’t change her past, and neither can she. Part of what makes me so afraid is that I’m afraid that even if she could change her past, she wouldn’t. I get afraid that if she’d met us at the same time, she’d have preferred him. And that somewhere inside, she still feels something for him, but she has buried it because she loves me too. And that the only reason she doesn’t want to be with him anymore is that she can’t trust him, not anything else about him that puts her off. I realize how that sounds too, because of course not being able to trust him should be enough reason to not want to be with him. But to word it in another way, what I fear is that if somehow it was suddenly possible to trust him, she’d prefer him over me. That she loved him as a person more than me, there was just one single trait that was a dealbreaker, whereas there’s no dealbreakers with me, but the rest is just lower as well. She has never said anything even remotely like that, and still it pops up in my head.
I’ve seen that for many it affects their sexual life, and I can’t say it has with me. I am so attracted to her, anytime there’s a chance for sex I go for it without thinking about anything else than me and her. The sex is amazing, we connect so well. I’m just beyond terrified that the RJ is gonna affect that one day. Like I said, we are both quite insecure people, and if the affirmation we give each other through sex about how attracted we are to one another, then I don’t know what’s gonna happen. I can’t stand the thought of losing her.
I know that this is just one big confused pile of stuff, but atleast I got it off my chest. If someone has any sort of advice, I’d be happy to take it. However, any sort of councelling is out the question. I am a student, and as such barely have money for food and shelter.
Thanks for reading.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (2 December 2011):
 "Boris, there is a third option: find a girl with values and morals towards intimacy that are the same as yours. They are rare, but to me, they are worth looking for."Well, I'm that kind of girl... my sexual history is so low, that I can tell everything to my parents and I do.But the problem is, alphamalesyndrome you don't sound attractive to me. Waiting to judge me, thinking to tell me what is wrong and what is right. Never loving me, until some day you judge that it's all right to put in some commitment, because you've finally decided that I am worthy. And the worst thing is, you still might leave if you find a woman who has had one less guy than me.... It's a form of perfectionism, and I don't think either me or any woman can live up to the high standards that you have set. I got a lot of potential too, and why should I pick you, when there are so many guys out there who don't have your issues?Sorry, it's only my humble opinion. Nothing wrong with your values, but the type of woman you want, may have some big problems with you, and that's why your not dating women like that, even though I know they exist.
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reader, alphamalesyndrome +, writes (2 December 2011):
Boris, there is a third option: find a girl with values and morals towards intimacy that are the same as yours. They are rare, but to me, they are worth looking for.
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reader, Boris Grushenko  +, writes (30 November 2011):
 @Yos: You say "I've certainly heard from men with RJ who have used it as an excuse to be unfaithful. The 'logic' goes something like: 'since she was a slut, then I am justified in being one too', or something along those lines."I've been suffering from RJ for over two years now. I've ended up with a severe depression, spent the last 10 months in a psychiatric daycare center, lost my job, havn't heard a friend in 4 months and being a loon prompted my entire family to turn it's back on me ...I've given the idea of having sex with random people (both men and women, although I'm a heterosexual) a lot of thought and I believe that currently, I have two options left.Option 1 is to never have sex again, in order to avoid the emotional implications of being the umpteenth partner, hoping to never be comfronted with the (emotional) emptiness of sex with a partner who's had a huge number of one night stands again.My second option is to "cheat" on her. Not because she did things that I don't approve of but merely because it looks as if the only way to SURVIVE this is to strip sex of all emotional meaning too. Not that I really want to achieve this, but at the moment it looks as if I'll never be able to enjoy sex in the emotional manner again. It's lost all meaning to me, I don't think there exists anything besides a meaningless fuck. I can only speak for myself, but from my perspective, cheating seems like the lesser evil ...What do you think is the most terrible thing? To achieve this banality by sleeping with a few random people or turning my back on her?
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reader, alphamalesyndrome +, writes (30 November 2011):
So after sports, reading lots of material here on DC, and a good night's sleep I've figured out what my problem is.
I think that most everyone, but especially very intelligent men, tend to overthink things and circle ideas in their head over and over again. This can be an enormous strength, because it helps you really sink into a problem and solve it quickly. But when you sink your mind into something negative, it eats you up inside and destroys your relationship.
That thought-circling is one part of the problem, and it's the part of the problem that has nothing to do with the partner and likely will appear over and over again.
The other part of the problem, at least for me, was falling in love with someone, letting my incredibly strong guard down a bit, and then finding out that a person that had a lot of good qualities wasn't what I was looking for in a mate after all. That was really painful, and that's what triggered the compulsive thinking. This is particularly bad for me, because all I want is to find a woman who I can give my heart totally and make her happy. But since I am a great guy, and also very sensitive (I'm a designer & artist), I have high expectations for a mate I plan to spend the rest of my life with. I can't give me heart completely to someone whose values towards intimacy don't line up with mine. I could surely have a great relationship with them, but my heart would never fully be theirs. And since I am still relatively young, unmarried, no kids, I don't want -- and don't feel like I have to -- settle for less in an area that is of key importance to me.
So after the dust of disappointment and hurt has settled, I'm leading the relationhip with my intellect again, and not my heart. This is so disappointing. I'm still on the fence on whether to continue the relationship. My intellect says that she adds a lot of positive value to my life, she is also profiting from us being together, so I should at least stick with it for a few more months. But I don't really want to be in a half-hearted relationship again. All of the relationships I've ever had were half hearted. But then again, since I'm still relatively young, and the rest of my life is still in flux and transition as well, it's probably not likely that I will meet a life partner at this stage in my life. She's a lot closer to what I want in a mate than anyone else has come so far, so maybe I should just enjoy this for now and see where it leads, just like the projects I am working on in my professional life aren't exactly what I want, but are far closer to it than what I had a year ago.
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reader, alphamalesyndrome +, writes (29 November 2011):
Yeah I have this too. I've had it since my first girlfriend, who had 5 guys before me when I was a virgin. That really sparked it in me and started those thoughts. Since I have always had a tendancy towards compulsive thinking, this has haunted me for 10 years now, in all of my relationships. At one point in my life, I thought that sleeping around a bit myself would help me understand and accept girls that sleep around. I was wrong -- it made it worse, and now I have to live with the fact that I've done everything I hate about other people and have to listen to people telling me I have a double standard.
I'm 27 years old, tall, good looking, educated, make lots of money, am in peak physical condition, and am very confident in my sexual skills. I've read tons of topics on this at DC, but it's usually by guys with very little experience with women. I haven't seen a case where a legitimate alpha male has these issues.
Yet, when I develop strong feelings for a girl, it bothers me if her sexual past is even remotely promiscuous. This girl I am with now, she is the type of person I could see myself spending a very long time with. I recently found out that she had a one night stand. One. And a couple of friends with benefits. Probably less than 10 guys in her life, at 27, and a very good person at heart. My experience and the way she treats me tells me that not only am I the most amazing guy she's ever met, but also that she's sexualy relatively inexperienced, even though she's had a couple of guys. My rational mind has dissected all of this perfectly. But knowing this doesn't help me quell the intense emotion I feel when I think of the girl I care deeply about giving her body to some random guy after a drunken night at the club. The feeling is horrible: it's a deep stinging pain in my chest, that goes down to my stomach and into my upper arms. It hurts so badly, it feels like I'm dying.
After ruining one great relationship a few years ago, I've gotten at least good enough at recognizing when it happens that I don't resort to verbal abuse anymore. I just sort of freeze in my tracks and tell her that I'm hurting, and she gives me affection and calms me down. She's great. So understanding and loving, it amazing.
Reading the topics here hasn't really helped. I'm familiar with medtation techniques and CBT, but I can't really apply this here, since it doesn't change the fact that she did these things. It just helps me ignore it, but I don't WANT to fool myself into thinking this is okay with me, because it's not and never will be.
And I guess, at some level, I don't think that my opinion is wrong: I want a woman, that knows what it means to give her body to someone, that takes this very seriously, and only does it after careful consideration, in a relationship to someone where love and connection is flowing. I don't think that's asking for too much. It's not like I want a virgin -- I had one and it was awful in every respect. But I am friends with girls that have the values towards sexual intimacy that I am looking for. So my thought process is: if I know there are girls like that out there, why wouldn't there be a girl out there like that for me.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm expecting too much. Sometimes I think to myself that, maybe this is just one more respect in which the world doesn't live up to my expectations, and I just need to live with it. Maybe what I have with this new girl, and what I had 5 years ago with my last relationship that died over this, is already the best that's out there. I mean, a pretty, smart, caring, flexible giver who is crazy about me and I have great sex with -- what more could a guy want? We could have a great relationship, better than most people in the world have or will have.
But on some level, that's just so....disappointing. I don't know if I could give all of my heart to a woman that is promiscuous, no matter what other positive qualities she has. It feels like I'm settling for less on an issue that is super important to me. And I don't like settling for less, since I have SO much to offer to a woman. It kinda feels like, okay, she is getting the perfect guy, while I have to settle for less.
So in essence, I think that what I place value on is my business, and that I am not expecting too much....but my RJ, that disproportionate, painful reaction, is what bothers me. That, and that it's so hard to leave a girl where I like everything about her but her past.
I'm really struggling with this.
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reader, popeye_loves-cuspi +, writes (20 October 2011):
Thank you @Tasha-1 thats very kind of you to say and wish.
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reader, aresu  +, writes (20 October 2011):
 this is a very interesting thread, and i would want to contribute too as best as i can, and hopefully bring more insight in this topic.
OK, first of all i want to start saying where i stand in all of this. im a virgin male by choice, and from a very early age i made up my mind that i would want to have my first time with someone who is also having their first time, and of course someone who i had a very strong connection and chemistry, and who i could fall in love, so that became one of my life long goals, and something very important and personal to me, basically something that i would defend not matter how hard it got, and i would not fall back, because i would would wait for that special someone and i would not accept anything less that what i was looking for.
and now years latter im having trouble with that, not because im regretting or i tough that that's not what i wanted, because it was, and still is, the problem is that i think i waited too long, because im already 19, and im entering a phase in my life where the virgin requirement is going to start to be very hard to come by, maybe not the others, but this one surely is, and i wont back down now, not after how far i have come. the reason i didn't start earlier was because i wanted to be more mature, to be able to take relationships more seriously and not just stupid teenager flings.
but by the time i was 17 everything dawned on my one day, that when i would actually start dating it would be very hard to find a virgin like myself, but there was no helping it, i still didn't feel ready, heck im still don't feel ready quite yet, im almost there, i think i will give myself one more year before i start dating, but still that only makes my odds worse, but i don't want to back down now, i waited so long for this, if in the future i don't follow trough then all this was for nothing, and would only be one of my major disappointments and regrets in my life, ever.
well i ranted long enough about that, so now i think i can go to the topic at hand, i just wanted to make clear why i felt like that, and why are my reasons my way of thinking.
well i can understand the issue of the past sexual partners, as i said, i wouldn't be with a woman who had sex before me, and not because i think she is less of a person, because she is not, but she wouldn't fit in the qualities im looking for, if only one, but as i said, is extremely important to me.
one of the main problems that makes this so hard, aside from the fact that is very hard to find, is that people will give a hard time about it, like if the long and painful search wasn't enough, i don't judge people who have different opinion on sex, as i can understand where they are coming from, but almost everyone will not give any sympathy for someone looking for a girl with no sexual past, and i think that this issue is due to the fact that usually men who want virgin partners are considered sexist, and trough history a lot of times men would be out there mating like animals and then would demand a virgin wife, so i think that is the general idea of the concept that remained, some men are still practicing it like that.
so for me at least i find it easy to see why people would not be able to see it my way, and why most of them would not even attempt to, because the first thing that they think is that im must be some kind of sexist douche, and no one likes people who discriminate unfairly, so they are quick to go and the defensive and start judging themselves, and im actually not mad for that, i knew where i was getting into when i decided that i would make the virgin factor a deal breaker for someone who could not give it themselves, but still, is very tiring and hurts so much to not be understood.
a lot of people has said to me that what happens to love, and if i put virginity on top of it, so i will say that no, i don't, and i don't know why people make that assumption, is obvious that someone who want a good relationship is looking for love too, i don't know why they jump to these conclusions, my guess is that they probably feel offended that i reject them for something that they don't consider is worth it, i base that in the fact that im pretty sure that if i was asking for something else, per say that if i wanted my mate to have some type of personality for example, they would not be quick to go against it claiming that im not looking for love, if i was saying any other thing they would just accept it as something normal to be expected from my partner according to my tastes.
a lot of people also are quick to claim that the past is the past and that there is no one else business to be digging in ti, but i don't think that's true, the past helps us knowing what kind of judgement that person is likely to have, also if you are getting serious with someone is better to come as open as possible, you would not want to marry someone who you only know half of them, or just a portion of them, and then years later down the road they surface and the other partner is shocked, and even then the party who was kiping them hidden then expects him to not be, is that partner was the one who was hiding it in the first place, if she didn't want it to come as a surprise then then she shouldn't have occulted in the first place.
a lot of people say that the lying is because they are scared of how the other partner would react, so they say a lie to not hurt their feelings, but this is so unfair for the fooled party, because you are basically stripping them of their right to be with some other person who they could truly like, and not what kind of person they were led to believe they had.
a lot of people who want to make a point for the people who doesn't understand this kind of thinking would try to get to them trough an example, like a former poster said that you cant solve anything saying "the past is the past" and he gave an example of saying that to a rape victim, and i saw another poster enraged because she didn't like how something as wrong as rape is to be considered in the same standard of that to a sexual past, and i will tell you people, is not because we think is similar, but is because we are trying for you to see it in another way, because you don't relate to our issue, then we try to put an example of something that everyone can relate to. i have seen a lot of times different kind of analogies about it, and always someone ends up enraged at the two being compared, and is not because we think they are alike, but because we try, and often fail, to make people understand our pain.
and by that analogy someone here questioned if we really feel that way, if we really are in that much pain in comparison to a rape victim. i cant know for sure, thankfully i have never lived that myself, and i don't know of anyone(that i know of) that has been a rape victim. but what i can do tell you is that, YES is hurts so much, it really hurts and torment us for a lot of time, in fact im sure that if end up not getting with the kind of girl i want i would be devastated for life, that's how big of a life goal this has become for me.
another thing i want to address is that i don't think that sexual promiscuity is ok, for any sex. and i had a lot of people say(most of them girls) that men had made that double standard, that if a man sleeps around than he is a stud, but if girls do it they are sluts. and i don't agree with this, all the decent males i know don't think like that, the only ones who really and honestly feel like that are the manwhores themselves or aspiring manwhores who want to be just like them. and sometime a lot of time guys will seem to approve of it even if they don't, and most of that is because of insecurity of being judged or they simply feel intimidated about the topic, i remember when i was younger and more insecure i would go with the flow when some of those guys where giving high fives between them if they were scoring a lot of sexual relationships, now that im more secure of myself i will simply wont say anything, and if asked what i think i would simply say that i don't agree, period. what im trying to get with this is that don't be fooled of thinking that most guys think like this, a lot of them will act like if they approved, even if they didn't.
but what i want to say that men do admire is how these manwhores have so much skill in attracting women, because for the most skilled ones seem to be able to have any girl they want, i have seen a lot of supposedly really hard girls to get, and these men make them have sex with them in a very short amount of time, even in less than a night, those kinds of skills to be able to get anyone, even i admire those kinds of charms, i can only wish i had that skill, and my search would become much more smooth.
and for a lot of males those kind of things is what make them doubt girls, because girls are always complaining about the manwhores and douches, and still they seem to have no problem whatsoever in sleeping with them, so this only further confuse us.
for the moment that's all i want to say, i know i posted a lot, but i hope i was able to help in this, and honestly it was very refreshing to be able to get all that off my chest.
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reader, Yos  +, writes (10 October 2011):
 "Could RJ be some devious attempt by some part of my brain to get me to seek extramarital adventure? What about jealousy in general? Do you think people actually sometimes become jealous in order to invent some excuse to be unfaithful?"
I've certainly heard from men with RJ who have used it as an excuse to be unfaithful. The 'logic' goes something like: 'since she was a slut, then I am justified in being one too', or something along those lines.
Jealousy drives us to terrible things. It sounds like you are in a good place now, in that you have become very aware of it and it's effect on you.
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reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (10 October 2011):
Tisha-1 is verified as being by the original poster of the question Hi popeye, it sounds like you have managed to overcome your RJ in a very successful and positive manner. I certainly know no one WANTS to feel RJ or suffer from it; it is not a conscious choice. I guess though that your example and that of other posters on this thread is that choosing to tackle it and choosing to resolve it are conscious choices.
I wish you and your wife a happy future together!
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reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (10 October 2011):
Tisha-1 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionHi idea, I'm sorry I've just seen your comment here. If you have a question, it's a good idea to post it on the site here: http://www.dearcupid.org/ask
Otherwise, just take a look around and scroll through the questions in various categories. You might find the search tool useful here: http://www.dearcupid.org/search
Your analysis of why and when you suffer from RF is an interesting thought and perhaps those who suffer from it might post their experiences here as well. I know Yos has written extensively on the topic and you might find his previous posts on it interesting and enlightening.
The thread remains active; it was intended to be a place where people could discuss RJ in a positive manner.
Hope to see you resolve your issue!
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reader, idea008 +, writes (27 September 2011):
I'm new here and not exactly sure how this works (is this thread still active?), but I've been reading this thread with interest and wanted to pose a question to see if anyone has any insight.I've suffered from RJ quite a bit, through four serious relationships including my current marriage. I think I have reasonable control over it for now, and that I have a pretty good marriage despite it, but it has caused some real problems in my relationships. I know for certain that it is not something you can just "get over". It's miserable and painful and no one would choose to experience it. But I feel limited in the extent to which I can expect sympathy for it, because my RJ has caused quite a bit of undeserved misery for my girlfriends/wife as well. Part of the irrationality of RJ is how unfair it can be to the target of the RJ.In trying to overcome RJ I've thought quite a bit about whether it could have any function/purpose, in the sense of part of my brain actually trying to accomplish something by experiencing RJ. I know that RJ can be thought of as a pathology, a kind of OCD, and I don't really disagree, but I also wonder whether it could have some kind of function. My logic is as follows. I've noticed that I tend to experience RJ more with my wife when I feel sexually restless with her. That is, we've been married for a while, and the relationship isn't as sexually charged and exciting as it once was, and occasionally I find myself getting restless, wondering if all my days of sexual adventure are really over, etc. And when I feel this way, sexually frustrated and a little resentful perhaps, RJ towards my wife tends to emerge. Almost like I would use RJ to (very unfairly) justify my interest is seeking sexual excitement with someone else. As if she would deserve for me to be unfaithful, because of sexual things she did before she was with me, and as if my being unfaithful would alleviate my RJ. Don't get me wrong; I know these impulses are unfair, and I haven't acted on them by being unfaithful, or even come close to it. I'm just trying to understand what might be going on in my brain, in the hopes that by understanding it I'll be better able to control it.I should stress that the RJ itself doesn't "feel like" a justification for infidelity; I don't experience it consciously like that. It simply feels like jealousy. It's just that I've noticed a correlation between feeling sexually bored in my relationship with my wife, and experiencing RJ towards her. Could RJ be some devious attempt by some part of my brain to get me to seek extramarital adventure? What about jealousy in general? Do you think people actually sometimes become jealous in order to invent some excuse to be unfaithful?
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reader, popeye_loves-cuspi +, writes (18 August 2011):
What people fail to understand is that as said, its not something guys choose to do of a morning waking up and saying "oh, il be jealous of your past today" Its something we cannot help and its there in our minds randomly one day and thats it, to get rid of it is hard, and then harder some more. I post this from personal experience, being that i was very jealous of my wife's past, the fact she has been with men and women before me, having slept with (including me) 13 people. To me, that was way to much (and still is IMO) but, the one thing that i did that helped, was to talk to her, not in a condescending manner or to make her feel dirty or that she did wrong, i just talked to her on a human loving level and wasn't trying to be some macho arse to her. I told her that i felt insecure that she had been with them and that i was scared and worried that i wouldn't be good enough as them at least, and she didn't go ape at me, or scream im making her feel like a lose woman or something of that nature, she understood me, heard my feelings were genuine because of the way i feel for her, and she did he best to reassure me, not lie to me as i saw someone post else where on here (believe me, a guy knows when a girl is lying about bedroom ability instantly) and that helped me gain confidence in being with her and not losing erections and feeling like bursting into tears. If she loves you as much and you are not an arse in the way you bring it up, then by talking (IMO and experience) It can be helped and subdued. I still have moments where it rears its ugly head, but i have the confidence in her that im able to bash it away and take control of what i feel and not feel insecure and jealous. I honestly could not ask for a better woman to spend the rest of my life with, she is my entire world and would do anything for her, being with her everyday makes me happy in ways that i never thought were possible, so it is possible to get over and move past.
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reader, rile962 +, writes (6 August 2011):
@Yos: That DOES shed light on the issue! So our human tendency to label people, then "file" them into a particular group and treat them according to the way we believe that group deserves to be treated is at play here. While this categorization can be helpful in some situations (I will file small children under the category "innocent" and treat them accordingly, for example, or I will file apples in the "food" category and realize I can eat them), this particular human tendency can also be very destructive. Very good insight, and perhaps a help for some if they realize they can change their filing system.
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reader, Dorothy Dix  +, writes (2 August 2011):
Hello again. The one main thing you need to do now, is to learn to accept it, because it can't be changed. It's history.
You can't change history, but you can change your attitude towards it.
Even though you still have issues with it, if you can't live with how you feel towards her now because of this, you might then have to make a decision about whether you should leave or stay.
No-one else can make this decision for you, because you are the one living your life.
Love means total acceptance, without conditions.
If to be in a relationship you have to be half of who you are, well then that cost is too high.
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reader, Yos +, writes (29 July 2011):
"I see men who suffer from RJ calling women sluts and whores, and I see women who suffer from RJ calling their SO's past gf's sluts and whores. What's the deal on that? A woman couldn't become a slut or whore unless a man was willing to sleep with her, so why does she get the label? Do you have any additional understanding about that issue?"
To me it seems you are asking two separate questions. To answer the second one first, and please remember I'm generalising here:
"Why does a woman acquire the label of slut from men, when men are willing to sleep with her, giving her that label by doing so?".
Many men quite easily divide women they'd have sex with into two categories: fine for sex only, and relationship material.
A man can quite happily have sex with lots of "sluts" then look for a "nice girl" to settle down with. It's the famous double standard we all know about, since he won't really see himself as a "slut" for having done this. A man will also generally prefer to settle down with a woman that hasn't had sex as with guys who saw her as a "slut" when they were sleeping with her. Previous 'proper boyfriends' are usually much less of an issue for male RJ sufferers than one night stands, casual sex, and exes who treated her badly.
The problem is one man's "slut" is another man's "relationship material". All women are relationship material for someone. Fortunately.
For the other question:
"I see men who suffer from RJ calling women sluts and whores, and I see women who suffer from RJ calling their SO's past gf's sluts and whores. What's the deal on that?"
I believe this is complex, due to many factors both biological and social. But the main part is that each sex experiences the emotion of jealousy slightly differently.
As I said below, men focus on casual sex and many partners. They fear losing the woman they love to a future male partner, or perhaps unknowingly bringing up a child that isn't theirs. By attacking his partners self esteem: calling her a "slut" and a "whore" he is trying to keep her! Odd I know. But think of how women with very low self esteem tend to stay in abusive relationships.
A woman who comes to believe she is indeed the "slut and whore" her jealous partner accuses her of being will believe she is not worthy as a person. She will stay with him because she feels she cannot do better. She will not feel attractive and hence be less likely to "stray". And, emotionally crushed, she will consent to his desire to control and monitor her. It's very much like the beaten wife who will not leave her violent husband.
This is what male retroactive jealousy is trying to achieve, albeit subconsciously through obsessive emotions. The man is not deliberately trying to do this, nor does he normally realise it. This is why blaming the man is wrong, and instead trying to get him to understand his own emotions and behaviour is the way to go.
For female RJ the pattern is different.
She usually fears she will lose him to his former love, to a woman he showed high commitment to in the past.
So, by calling that woman (or women) a "slut and whore", she's trying to make him believe that she is indeed a "slut". She's trying to make him move the ex from the 'relationship material' category to the 'sex only / slut' category. That makes the ex much less of a risk: he's not going to leave her and go back to his ex if he believes his ex is a slut.
I witnessed this first hand. My gf, at a very inappropriate moment (amongst friends) started screaming that my ex wife was a "whore". She wouldn't stop, and we had to leave. At the time I was very upset, and no doubt I upset her more by telling her: no, my ex was actually a virgin when we met and has only been with one other man since. Exactly what she didn't want to hear, I realised later. But really she was only giving me a taste of my own medicine: I was suffering from intense RJ at the time and had said many terrible things to her.
I want to add that this pattern can sometimes reverse, but it's rare in my experience. I know one (former) male RJ sufferer whose jealousy was focussed on one main ex boyfriend. But that ex boyfriend had become a famous millionaire, a fact his girlfriend was quite happy to mention. In that situation, I think it's easy to see why this was the case.
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reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (28 July 2011):
Tisha-1 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThanks for the new additions to the thread, I really think this is a good way for these topics to be covered in a respectful manner. I often see anons posting such bitter and angry words, using the words 'slut' and 'whore' and would invite them to post on this thread but I think they prefer a diet of anger, rather than a healthier diet of understanding and forgiveness.
My admonition to be civil and respectful goes for the aunts who attack people who suffer from RJ as well. I have to admit to falling into the 'it's in her past, get over it' camp but as I've spent time here at DC, I can see it's a genuine problem with unhappy people who are seeking help. I think the advice to 'get over it' in this case would be the same as telling someone with depression to 'snap out of it.' NOT helpful, not in the slightest.
So let's keep the great discussion going here, thanks to you all!
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reader, rile962 +, writes (28 July 2011):
@Yos, I have a question for you, wondering if you might have any insight about since you do have much knowledge about this subject. As I've read many posts and comments across the web, I see men who suffer from RJ calling women sluts and whores, and I see women who suffer from RJ calling their SO's past gf's sluts and whores. What's the deal on that? A woman couldn't become a slut or whore unless a man was willing to sleep with her, so why does she get the label? Do you have any additional understanding about that issue?
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reader, Yos +, writes (28 July 2011):
Good addition Tisha
Whilst I agree with much of what she said, i have a couple of differences.
Most significantly, she appears to be saying that RJ is the same for men as it is for women. I don't agree. I'm not saying it's worse for one sex or the other, only different, although it does appear more common in men.
The main difference I've observed is that whilst men tend to obsess about casual sex and low-commitment relationships in their partners past, women tend to obsess more about the high-commitment relationships. A man will think to himself "how could she have sex with those lowlifes" whilst a woman will think "What if he loves her more than me and goes back to her?". I'm generalizing of course.
Women also tend to blame themselves more tyan men do: a man with RJ will typically demean his partner, whilst a woman will try harder not to and often find a way to blame herself, or at least shoulder her part of the burden. A generalization again.
Studies of jealously show many differences between male and female jealousy, so it's not surprising there would be differences with retroactive jealousy.
This is also I think part of the tradgedy of RJ: because men and women relate to it differently it is especially hard to empathise with each other when it occurrs. Smething I have seen over and over on this site: women acting with hostility towards men who come here with RJ, and men (not ususally hostile because the women start from a more balanced perspective) not "getting why" a woman would have those issues.
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reader, Yos +, writes (28 July 2011):
Good addition Tisha
Whilst I agree with much of what she said, i have a couple of differences.
Most significantly, she appears to be saying that RJ is the same for men as it is for women. I don't agree. I'm not saying it's worse for one sex or the other, only different, although it does appear more common in men.
The main difference I've observed is that whilst men tend to obsess about casual sex and low-commitment relationships in their partners past, women tend to obsess more about the high-commitment relationships. A man will think to himself "how could she have sex with those lowlifes" whilst a woman will think "What if he loves her more than me and goes back to her?". I'm generalizing of course.
Women also tend to blame themselves more tyan men do: a man with RJ will typically demean his partner, whilst a woman will try harder not to and often find a way to blame herself, or at least shoulder her part of the burden. A generalization again.
Studies of jealously show many differences between male and female jealousy, so it's not surprising there would be differences with retroactive jealousy.
This is also I think part of the tradgedy of RJ: because men and women relate to it differently it is especially hard to empathise with each other when it occurrs. Smething I have seen over and over on this site: women acting with hostility towards men who come here with RJ, and men (not ususally hostile because the women start from a more balanced perspective) not "getting why" a woman would have those issues.
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reader, rile962 +, writes (24 July 2011):
@JustHelpingAgain, I find it interesting that one of the "groups" you mention compares RJ to being like a racial prejudice, because my bf, who suffers from RJ, is very racially prejudiced. It drives me crazy! Maybe people in the group who have contradicting beliefs are more judgmental in general??? Thoughts?
Also, I saw on a different website where an RJ sufferer had listed groups of "triggers," and I'm wondering if anyone here has put together such a list on this site. I think it's helpful to know what will put the thoughts into motion so that a person can avoid those triggers, or at least be aware of them when they happen, so they can have a strategy to short-circuit the obsessive thoughts before they get going.
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reader, JustHelpinAgain  +, writes (21 July 2011):
OP, a great thread. The anon poster just below summarises very well the symptoms of obsessive behaviour. The causes can be varied. Reading through the threads and adding my own experience I recognise some distinct groups.1. Contadicting beliefs. Many people just think its wrong to have done this or that or had x number of partners etc. Seems to trouble newer relationships more. Its a bit like a religious or racial prejudice. 2. Comparison between yourself and partners exes. This is tougher to work out, your partner loves you but did more with/for an ex. and then they try to tell you that you are more special, on top of that why did he/she need to tell you, couldn't they imagine you'd be hurt. 3. Broken image. Over time you think you know everything about your partner and then something comes out that makes you feel like your whole life has been a lie. It feels like the person you knew has died, and just like mourning you reflect insessently on every detail that hurts you until you are drowning in pain. Luckily time numbs the pain, but can you ever respect and trust anybody as much as you did, ever again. I don't know.
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reader, person12345 +, writes (19 July 2011):
 Wow, what an incredible description.
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reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (19 July 2011):
Tisha-1 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionI just HAD to copy/paste this answer to another thread. It was a personal distillation by an anon poster as she struggled to come to terms with her boyfriend's RJ. I really like how she breaks it down into concrete chunks so we examine each piece of the puzzle. Without further ado:
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A female reader, anonymous, writes (18 July 2011):
I'm going to add my 2 cents here, and it's long. I've been doing a little internet searching on this type of problem and I want to add some perspective to this issue.
I'm 50 years old and so is my current boyfriend. We both had long-term marriages that ended in divorce. We both were sexually active as teens and had relationships as teens. We've both been divorced several years and have had one long-term relationship each with different partners since our divorce plus a few other sexual partners. I'm telling this part so you understand the perspective from which I write.
In my search to understand, these are the things I've discovered:
1) This issue has no age limit, young or old, and is not gender specific, and it happens across many cultures. Both males and females of all ages and all sexual activity levels can have a problem with this issue.
2)Men are more likely to have a double-standard in this area. By this I mean that they may have had multiple relationships/sexual partners while their current girlfriend/wife may have been a virgin when they got together; she may have done nothing more than kiss or "make-out" with another man,yet the men who struggle with this problem still think of that girl as a whore or a slut. Women don't tend to see their husband/boyfriend as a whore or slut, even if the man has had more sexual encounters than the woman.
3) Because this problem happens to both males and females, it cannot be attributed only to a man wanting a virtuous woman, i.e. saying evolution has programmed men to want a virgin whereas women want an experienced man, or it's the natural order of things for a man to want a virgin. Nor can it be put down to female insecurities because men also feel this way.
4)The issue has nothing to do with the level of promiscuity (tons of partners in the past or an unequal number of partners in the past)because both partners could have been virgins, could have been each others' "first," yet one of the partners will have problems with obsessing about any type of experience, even holding hands, which their partner did before.
5) The obsessive partner could actually have had more sexual experience/partners than his/her partner. The obsessive partner will feel his/her past relationships are okay (even if he/she feels guilty about them), but the partner's past is not okay.
6) Male obsessors will play the "evolution" or "natural order of things" card while female obsessors can't fall back on that excuse, so they usually blame their own insecurities.
7) Some people (both males and females) who comment on this type of issue will quickly call females who have a sexual past whores or sluts, even if it's just one experience which doesn't even include intercourse. Men with sexual pasts are not called these names.
8)Some people, both males and females, who comment on this type of issue attack both males and females who are sexually active, not realizing that their own judgment/pride is the greater sin. I call these people "blind hypocrites." You're free to have your own opinion; you're not free to attack.
9) Some male obsessors admit to wanting their partner to be completely untouched, as in she shouldn't have even held the hand of another boy. However, those same males hold themselves to an entirely different standard. I reiterate this point because it's cruel,illogical, and unreasonable to hold another person to a standard you yourself have not met.
10) All obsessors say, "I could get over this, BUT..." and then go on to label a behavior they see as unacceptable (such as, his family still likes his ex or one of her partners was a different race than the current partner, or if only his past gf wasn't so much younger than him), which then somehow justifies all their obsessive feelings.
11)Male obsessors report wanting to kill or beat up their partners' previous bf's/husbands, even if his partner parted with her ex on good terms.
12)All obsessors report intense feelings of sickness, disgust, nausea, pain, and a desire to be violent in some way, even if only by ranting and screaming. Some actually vomit at times, or have other physical stress symptoms such as rashes, or become suicidal. Obsessors then claim that they love their partners intensely and that their partner is perfect in every way, except his/her past.
13) Obsessors will often quiz and harass their partners, often for hours, until their partners finally answer their questions. The obsessor will be very upset or angry when the answer comes, or if his/her partner fails to answer, or if any details vary even slightly from past answers, even if the partner is struggling to recall details from 10 or more years ago.
14) Obsessors say they have never loved anyone as much as they love their current partner, but then go on to hurt their partner will hateful accusations, name-calling, and derogatory remarks. This is not love. This is abuse.
15) Some non-obsessive partners say that their relationship with an obsessor deteriorated into further verbal, emotional, and sometimes physical abuse.
16) All obsessors said they play mental video tapes complete with a sound track of their partners' past relationships/sexual encounters. I found this interesting as people have several different ways they can imagine things: as moving pictures, as sounds only, as still images, etc., but obsessors chose the most real-to-life type of imagination or recall.
The answers I've found:
1) Leave for your own sake or the sake of your partner. No one is winning in this type of relationship.
2) If you don't want to leave, seek therapy immediately, like yesterday. Hypnosis, behavioral, cognitive, whatever...just find something that will work for you.
3) If therapy isn't an option because of affordability, you must practice strict thought and behavior control. No stalking anyone at any time. No snooping through emails, texts, diaries, etc. STOP your thoughts as soon as you recognize them. DO NOT INDULGE YOUR THOUGHTS. Your thoughts at this point are like an addictive drug, as are your behaviors. You're actually addicted to feeling bad, and your partner might be addicted to feeling bad, as well, which is why he/she tolerates your behavior. Search online for ways to STOP thoughts. Emotions come and go, but our thoughts are totally under our control.
4) Talk to people who don't have this problem or who have overcome the problem. It's great to find people who are struggling with your same problem,but unless you're encouraging each other to STOP, you're making each others' problems worse, not better.
5) See number 10 above and do not say BUT. You have a problem that needs to be fixed and you are the only one who can fix it because you are the only one who can control your own thoughts. Your BUT is no more significant than anyone else's BUT.
6) If you really want to love your partner (your current behavior is not loving; it's abusive) DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO GET OVER, AROUND, ABOVE, BELOW OR THROUGH THIS PROBLEM (stick to legal fixes, not things like attempted suicide or homicide or physical abuse).
So where do I fit in all this? My boyfriend is struggling to overcome my sexual past, even though we have similar pasts. I DID NOT want to talk about this subject, but he drilled me and drilled me until I did. STUPID! Put it down to lack of memory about dating, plus I haven't had a problem with this in any of my past relationships, and I haven't had a serious relationship for over 4 years. His behavior should have been an immediate red flag, but I was blinded by his sweet behavior when we first met.
I have no problem with his past, even though I visit him in the house he and his wife bought together, and I sleep with him in a bed which he bought while he was in a long-term relationship with another woman. Run imagination tape: he made love to her in this bed, in this bedroom; they did the same things together I'm doing with him (edit explicit details - you know what they are); he told her he loved her in this bed. My response to tape: How lucky they had each other for that time; I hope they enjoyed each other; I'm sorry things didn't work out between them, but I'm sure glad I've got him now!
Here's the scoop: Do I love him? Yes! He's incredible in so many ways! But I'm ready to walk. His hypocritical double-standard is driving me crazy. We're both 50 for the pity sake! If he wants a 22 year old virgin, he can get one. Maybe his children will appreciate a sister. If I stay, I'm as mentally unhealthy as he is, and I don't want to be that unhealthy. I want to enjoy my children, my grand1hildren, my life, my health, everything that life has to offer me at this stage of the game. And just so you know, my boyfriend is a successful businessman, very handsome, and has an incredible body and a delightful sex drive. Not only that, he's wonderful to his children, has a great sense of humor, is intelligent, and knows how to relax and have fun. Yep, he's great in almost every way; but I'll leave all that to get away from this nonsensical abuse. I hope this helps someone in some way. Good luck to all!
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The above was posted on this thread: http://www.dearcupid.org/question/obsessed-with-bf-xes.html
Thank you anon for that extraordinary summation.
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reader, DizzyDame +, writes (23 March 2011):
I love this thread, so happy I found it! I'm a 29 yr old going through this horribleness as well. My 45 year old bf of 1.5 years told me about his menage a trois and swingers expericences from his 15 year marriage. He's currently going through a divore and one of the issues was that ten years ago he had a menage behind his ex's back. I guess he thought it wasn't cheating since they'd done it so many times before...as if! When I first found out I was intrigued, but that turned to jealousy really quick as he's extremely sexual and I can't help but think that he's fantasizing about 3-ways with my friends or women from his past. Don't get me wrong, I'm no virgin and have my stories, but none come even close to swinging although it is something that I once considered with an ex-lover but backed out of...We're deeply in love but he's totally hung up on his messy divorce (hates her) and doesn't ever want to get remarried or have kids or prolly live together so all these things add to my retro-jealousy as I don't have any real commitment with him, plus if he could cheat on his wife what would stop him from doing it to me? I don't want to leave him although the anti- marriage/kids thing bothers me, but I just need to stop envisioning him ravishing a harem of chicks. I even contiplated having a go at it myself so I can be on the same seual level as him so to speak, but also make him jealous as well. Of course that's ridiculous, but it has crossed my mind. I also entertained us doing it together (with another man!) but I'm afraid that would just spark his desire for it and who knows wat would happen after that. He never brings this stuff up but he's completely honest with me about anything I ask him. Its just hard to get over it because we have such a great chemistry and still have immense passion for eachother...I try not to obsess over it, but he lives an hour and a half away from me and I only see him on the wekends...wow, I just realized everything that sucks about our relationship...
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reader, Boris Grushenko +, writes (1 February 2011):
I'm suffering from Retrograde jealousy myself (+/- 60 one night stands vs. this being my second relationship (and that's really all I had) ...)
It even lead to a major depression (this is not the first time I suffer from a depression, I know I have other issues). Due to this depression, I started reading "The Compassionate Mind" by Paul Gilbert.
Currently, my major struggle is with the idea of a complete lack of intimacy, i.e. the idea that each person has his (single) way to experience sexuality and that for my GF sex is on the same emotional level as going to the toilet whereas for me ... let us say that I often find myself trying to get rid of all the naive and romantic emotional implications that come with sexuality. It's a thought that - although, I must admit never expressed so strongly - seems rather common.
I must admit that, when making love, it feels like we're a very intimate couple, the problem is that "I need a fix" every two hours (which is not realistic, to say the least) to avoid ruminating on these thoughts.
Another important note is that she's even more devoted to helping me over my depression and my issues with her past then even my closest family (who only know of my depression).
I've stumbled upon an intersting insight on this subject that I want to share ...
(I try to remember this every time I start to mull)
But first, I think I need to give some context:
First, there's the concept of psychological archetypes (I got this from wikipedia):
The concept of psychological archetypes was advanced by the Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung, c. 1919. In Jung's psychological framework archetypes are innate, universal prototypes for ideas and may be used to interpret observations.
Second, there's the concept of social mentalities
Paul Gilbert developed a theory on "social mentalities" that are (my interpretation) basically prototypes for behavioural patterns that determine social interactions very much like Yung's archetypes determine individual behaviour. In his book, Gilbert describes the most important social mentalities.
And then, there's the interesting quote ...
Social mentalities can be blended together. So just as a blend of yellow and blue make green, a blend of caring, cooperating and sexuality gives rise to affectionate and sharing sexual experiences in which partners cherish each other and build a bond through their sharing.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (23 January 2011):
OCD and obsession... but you speak as if you have no choices. The thoughts come and you decide to allow the "horror" movie to play in your mind and drive you insane.
I know it's not as easy as it sounds, but thoughts can be controlled through meditation (buddhism) and also through CBT (congative behavioural therapy) It's a damaging habit which can be changed with professional help.
Of course this is not logical. She's now with you and she's willing to spend her life with you and all this is at risk because of one incident.
"You see, for someone like me, I can't help but feel like she used me for her first sexual experience, and then went to have another one, only to come back and decide to be with me."
Who is "someone like you"? Is this about your own feelings of inadequacies and self-worth? Do you have self-confidence issues that your are fearful to tackle, so you project your worries onto your girlfriend?
That's why I think this is about your own anger at yourself. You didn't formalise the relationship, it doesn't sound as if she was unfaithful, she didn't have a committed relationship with you, for whatever reason.
Four years is a long time to suffer like this. If you don't find an effective solution then you and her can't be together. You can't continue to feel like this for 20, 40years.
Yes, I understand the disappointment of broken perfection. It hurts a lot. But I also know the regrets that come from a life wasted over senseless problems creates a bitter sadness that never leaves you.
You want perfection back... not possible... but your spoiling the perfection that may be available to you in the present and in the future. Your spoiling your own happiness this way.
I know that it feels beyond your control..But it's not. Your head is telling you stories to make you unhappy. Hypnotism (Hypnotherapy) is another method which can help. Repeating "I don't care, she's now here....." anything which will turn off the tape recorder in your head and allow more positive thoughts to come through will be helpful to you.
We are not our thoughts. We can choose which thoughts are important enough to listen to. The mind will think hundreds of thoughts in a minute, you choose to grab one and make that one important. You can choose to just watch and listen to them and let them pass by.
Try to sit still for 10minutes, and afterwards write down every single thought you have. You will find that you think about your girlfriend, the state of the economy, the wings of a bird and the fact that your back itches. This is the beginning of meditation, just learning how to sit still and not move and not pay attention to the thoughts that come.
You think your girlfriend did something wrong, but she hasn't, there was no proper commitment. She came back to you, she's with you. Try to cure yourself or you'll loose her forever. Try to concentrate on what you have, not what you have lost.
Here's a longer post on the condition and an extended article from Yos... http://www.dearcupid.org/question/retroactive-jealousy--how-do-i-overcome-it.html
I wish you both wellbeing and happiness
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reader, Somewhatdamaged +, writes (17 January 2011):
Thank you for all of the responses. I regret mentioning the suicidal thoughts, as I don't want that to be the focus. Many people who suffer from OCD and obsessive thoughts think of any way possible to relive the torment. Unfortunately, sometimes suicidal thoughts become part of that obsessive thinking thought it is never considered an option or taken seriously. Regardless, it does help to explain just how horrible these thoughts and retroactive jealousy are.@Dorothy I understand fully, that I have no "right" to truly be upset with her since we were not dating at the time. While it is not as much of a trust issue with her, as for the past 4 years she has been more than faithful and honest with me, as it is a matter of jealousy. I felt like something was taken from me actually when she didn't tell me she lost her virginity to me. You see, we always had strong feelings for each other but we were seeing each other long distance. Because of this, it took a little longer for our relationship to develop. Still though, I was always serious about her, and we continued on our way dating but not officially. When she slept with the other guy and I found out about it after we started dating, I couldn't help but ask why she didn't tell me about losing her virginity to me. Her main answer was, "I didn't want it to be a big deal.". Well, it has become one now and for the last 4 years, but for all the wrong reasons. You see, for someone like me, I can't help but feel like she used me for her first sexual experience, and then went to have another one, only to come back and decide to be with me. While you can look at this as a good thing, to be it is horribly traumatizing. I feel like I had something perfect taken away from me.Please realize I am not being sexist at all here, I am just trying to explain my genuine emotions. I know I have no control over her or her actions when we were not officially dating- but that doesn't take away the feeling of pain and jealousy.I guess my question is, how am I to get over something like this? For 4 years I have tried therapy and the idea that with love I would forget this over time. Well, as things get more serious and marriage is a real option, these feelings of jealousy and hurt are only getting worse.
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reader, Dorothy Dix +, writes (15 January 2011):
Hello there SomewhatDamaged. So your girlfriend lost (or said she did), her virginity to you before you were officially dating.
No real problem there as I see it.
You started dating about six months after that, but about 3 months or so after you both first had sex, she had one other sexual partner in between. That's about right, isn't it?
So her second partner was 3 months or so before you and her actually started officially dating as boyfriend and girlfriend.
You weren't even dating her when this event happened.
So really, you had no hold over her at that time did you? You weren't her boyfriend then - you were only friends.
You are actually jealous of the fact that someone else had sex with her in between the lost virginity (by you), and you and her going out together as boyfriend and girlfriend.
So when you look at it that way, what purpose does this retrograde jealousy really serve? It proves nothing, in fact it gets in the way of true happiness. It's a real barrier.
What's past is out of your control. You can't change history, it simply has to be accepted for what it is - history. It's dead and gone.
You might be having trust issues towards her and because she had sex with one man, after you and her first had sex, it is possibly leading you to wonder whether or not you can trust her now.
Relationships do come down to trust, and if there is ever any doubt about trustworthiness, well then it will cause many problems down the track.
I feel that more than anything else, trust towards her, might be the biggest problem you are having now.
Your biggest concern seems to be the fact she had sex with this other man in between you and her becoming an item, and you are having serious doubts that she might stray away from you at some time in future - because of it.
Perhaps at that time, although you and her were not dating, that you already had intentions of her becoming your girlfriend at some point, but she might not have been exactly feeling the same way then. Obviously, she liked you enough to have sex with you, but relationship wise, she was possibly on a different page to you.
You then waited around for her to be ready for a relationship, and it took her about 3 months or so, for that to happen - then you found out about this other guy.
You were understandably upset. This is a normal reaction.
Bringing this all fast forward to now, you are in a relationship which is probably getting fairly serious, but you can't get this thought out of your mind, so it haunts you.
As long as you both get along really well, and she has given you no reason to doubt her faithfulness to you all this past 4 years, well then there is no reason to mistrust her at all, is there?
My advice is to trust her completely, unless she ever gives you any reason not to.
Once you do learn to trust her - and it will take a little time - you will definitely find that all these doubts you continually feel, will simply fade away altogether.
You may be having doubts that you can ever trust her again, but believe me, you will just so long as you have faith in her always doing the right thing and treating you properly and with respect. You do need to have faith.
It certainly seems that she has given you no reason to doubt her since then, in this past 4 years, so now it's up to you to simply allow yourself to trust her completely - every single day. Just consciously trust her, and don't allow any doubts to come into your mind at all.
The worst thing that could happen if you don't decide to just trust her, is that it might push her away from you altogether. It would certainly put some doubts in her mind also, and place some further tension on the relationship. You really need to think about that very seriously.
I'm sure you don't want to lose her, and you do risk that happening, while ever you choose to not trust her.
It has become a habit for you, but all habits can be broken with some conscious decision-making.
When you live your life with trust, it just deepens your love for each other so much more. You will also be at peace with the world.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (14 January 2011):
Somewhatdamaged,
Tisha is right, it sounds like you badly need professional help and counselling. Your situation is slightly different from the usual RJ cases we here, and I suspect there is anger, hatred and guilt, over wrong choices that have been made, that you both now regret. Please contact your doctor and ask to see a counsellor as soon as possible. I think if you talk to someone it will provide you with some relief.
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reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (14 January 2011):
Tisha-1 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionHi somewhatdamaged, it sounds to me as though you should seek counseling immediately if you are having suicidal thoughts. I would recommend that you see your physician and get an appropriate referral immediately. There are treatment modalities available for people with OCD and depression--you need to go avail yourself of them right away. Please do not feel that you can do this by yourself, from what you've written, you require professional intervention. Best wishes to you.
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reader, Somewhatdamaged +, writes (14 January 2011):
I stumbled upon this post today, searching for some help with this exact issue. I hope that the people who started and commented on this thread are still active, as I would love to hear some insights.First of all Tisha, Yos and Miamine- you have all done an amazing thing here. This discourse is exactly what I have been looking for. Thank you, a hundred times.I am a male, 25 years old, who has had somewhere around 25 sexual partners. I too suffer from "retroactive jealousy" in a my current relationship of over 4 years. We are in love, as much in love as I can ever hope for. But, as has been stated here, with this growing love comes more pain for me. Here is the "curveball" with my issue. Yes, I have had quite few sexual partners, but my girlfriend actually lost her virginity to me. This occurred about 6 months before we started officially dating. Once we started dating, she revealed to me that she lost her virginity. At that time, she also revealed to me that she had sex with someone else a few months after she lost her virginity to me. So, this is where we are. She has had 2 partners, the first being me. I can fully understand her having partners before me, and I never went into this relationship thinking anything else. My retroactive jealousy focuses on the fact that she lost her virginity to me, and then had sex with someone else. She never told me about her losing her virginity to me, and over the past 4 years this has become a growing issue. I have intense feelings of panic attacks at times, and have suffered depression and even suicidal thoughts trying to deal with this retroactive jealousy. So my situation is a little different, in that the subject of this retroactive jealousy happened after we were together though not officially dating. And yes, I am come to terms with that fact that I am suffering from OCD regarding this issue.I thought I would share my story, and would appreciate any insights anyone could offer. Have you heard of a situation like mine?
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reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (19 December 2010):
Tisha-1 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionYou're welcome! Thank Yos and other aunts who came before you and made me realize I did not know how to help. So here's the safe place to discuss it. I'm delighted to have been of help to you. A real day-brightener!
Best wishes to you and your girlfriend.
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reader, truffle31 +, writes (18 December 2010):
@Tisha-1
I just want to thank you for creating this post, I have this kind of feeling towards my girlfriend's past...and the response in here, all the posts, it has helped me a lot and I am now able to feel much better than before. I will keep reading these posts over and over again, as it keeps me peaceful and my mind in a much better state.
Thank you for creating this post.
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reader, Pyroshadow +, writes (1 September 2010):
@ Miamine
Thanks. The 'rape' analogy I use to portray just that.
What good does attacking the victim here do?
My opinion is so strong because it is something I struggle with everyday.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (30 August 2010):
This interesting post has come up again.. I'd like to repost something pyroshadow said which I thought was very helpful.
"You should be trying to help him. Trying to tell him that its not his fault he loves someone who has done such awful things. That it is okay if he can not love her, that it's okay to let go. That he shouldn't feel bad for letting go of her and shouldn't stay with her for her stake just because he is the best guy she ever dated. Its her mistakes and something she has to deal with, not him." (Pyroshadow)
Now some of what he says I find debatable.. but the advice to treat people suffering from jealousy issues kindly and in a more sympathetic was is very, very good. Suffering from jealousy doesn't make somebody a bad person, walking away from a relationship that is causing you suffering is also not wrong. I know myself and other aunts have not shown enough kindness or sympathy for the men and women who suffer like this.
Thanks Tish for this very helpful and constructive post.
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reader, person12345 +, writes (22 August 2010):
Yos, your answers are amazing. Can I just say that? You should write a book. You could really help people I think. I completely agree that being promiscuous in the past in no way affects his or her ability to love. Love and sex are/can be separate from each other.
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reader, LilPixie +, writes (21 August 2010):
 I haven't read all of the posts on here yet, but I will when I have more time.
I posted a question on this subject before because I was finding it difficult to deal with my boyfriends sexual past. I knew his history before we got together and at the start I wasn't bothered by it but as time goes on it seems to hurt more and more, maybe because I lost my virginity to him and he'd slept with 2 girls and had 4 girlfriends before me... Some of the answers I got wasn't very helpful and actually quite hurtful. One of the answers I got was:
"You realize that he has a RIGHT to his past, and it's NONE of your business and that by fixating on this your're going to screw up a good realtionship... Now, grow up, and if you can't your NOT READY for a relationship... you have no right to judge anyone... let it go- he's made a decision to be with you, and if you can't grow up, he's going to realize that he's made a mistake."
Ever since it started bothering me I've been trying to find a way to stop it hurting. I don't want to feel this way and I know I shouldn't. I don't really know why it started to bother me when I was fine with it at the start.
I think this Article was a really good idea and maybe I'll find an answer to my problem once I've read all the comments. I have tried many times to tell myself that there is a reason why he isn't with any of those girls anymore and that he is with me because he loves me and not them but that just doesn't seem to help.
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reader, Yos +, writes (21 August 2010):
"How is a guy supposed to know if a reformed bad girl is really leaving her promiscuous past behind? How can a guy know that she's not "damaged goods" (that is, has a reduced ability to associate sex with love, or to form intimate emotional connections)? How could a guy know she really believes that, after all the guys before him, he's the special one?"
That's a seductive argument. I fell for it myself once, when gripped by retroactive jealousy. I liked that argument because it appeared to justify my loathing of promiscuity I was feeling at the time. It suited my needs and allowed me to stay trapped in jealousy.
The thing is, like any theory, it needs to describe reality. And I don't believe it does.
As Tisha states, it's not unusual for someone with little sexual experience to start to wonder what they missed out on. In a long term relationship they start to think of making up for this, by cheating or breaking up.
That is one side of your argument. As for the other, what you say here is key:
"a promiscuous woman... has a reduced ability to associate sex with love, or to form intimate emotional connections"
My life experience has taught me that this is the opposite of what tends to happen, with most women at least.
I have had partners with little sexual experience, and in general they have been less sexual, more restrained, and less able to express intimacy and love through sex, to use your words.
I have also had partners who have been very sexual, and had 'storied pasts'. In general they have expressed themselves more strongly through sex; being more able to be intimate, open and physically loving. This is especially true of my current partner. She has had many one night stands, being a very sexual woman, but we currently experience incredible intimacy and love, our sexual connection being a great part and enabler of this.
Having studied retroactive jealously for several years now, and having spoken to a great many men and women about it, I have hears that my experiences in this are the norm.
Put simply: female promiscuity in no way implies a reduced ability to express love and intimacy through sex. In fact, rather than in theory, the opposite is commonly true.
A man who believes in the 'damaged goods theory' is listening to his own inner dogma, not looking at the world as it really is around him.
As Einstein put it: in theory, practice resembles theory. But in practice, it doesn't.
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reader, Stonemason +, writes (21 August 2010):
 Tisha-1, thanks for addressing MY issue, which was a little different from the original poster's, mine being that my wife was always alluding and referring to and mentioning some little thing about her past with other men in many social conversations. I said it was a form of bragging and that she seemed to be taunting me, and my very recent way of dealing with it is to finally break my own silence about my own past and allude to it as she does--publicly. It has shut her up, and so on this issue I am satisfied...
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reader, Miamine +, writes (21 August 2010):
"when I get into these debates my ratings on this site go WAY down (from above 8 to usually around 7.5)" (anon)
So that's how it's done... good thing that I aint really worried about my ratings, cause I would have left a long time ago.. but it sure hurts when people insult me by saying because my scores are low, I must be talking nonsense..
Nope, I tackle difficult issues and say things that upset other people.
I agree anon, about the hateful language some posters are using. But the whole issue is upsetting in my humble opinion, because at it's heart it's men seeking to control a woman's past... (ok, yes, it can happen to women too this jealousy thing) But as I said, I'm here to understand and therefore will hear things that are upsetting..
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reader, anonymous, writes (20 August 2010): "For example, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone, male or female, who does not believe the world would be a better place if that small percentage of men pumping and dumping 300 girls in their lifetime would cut it out."
I agree. I'm sorry, I just took serious offense to your wording as it implied a double standard that applies to women and not to men. It's definitely true that relationships would have a lot less baggage to deal with if people weren't sleeping around as much. Everyone gets jealous of past partners I'd imagine. I only take offense when it's a one way street, like I can sleep with 100 people, but if you're not a virgin I'll get rid of you because you're a woman.
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reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (20 August 2010):
Tisha-1 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThis actually kind of illustrates one of the things I wrote in the original post:
"BUT, it must be respectful of the aunt holding a differing viewpoint. You must keep in mind that you may disagree with another aunt, but keep it cordial. If you can't manage that, don't bother posting, it just shows that you aren't really able to offer helpful, constructive advice to the people who come here hurting and in need of assistance."
Perhaps rule number one is not to post in anger? Anon, I don't believe he was actually referring to you in specific, so why would you allow anger to overcome you in this way?
The other anons who post things like "Divorce her. She's a slut. There's no other option." are posting out of anger as well, and I don't really believe they have anything except negativity and hurt to offer our RJ-suffering posters.
So now that anon has attempted to school others, can we please get back to the point of the thread? And remember my first point? If you disagree with something someone has said, go ahead and write your rebuttal, but do NOT attack another aunt here, 'kay? Easy-peasy.
So, anon-last, what helpful, constructive, useful advice do you have for sufferers of RJ? I challenge you to take that anger and modulate it to something that will help these posters.
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I know I'm missing a great deal of the posts but I wanted also to address this challenge:
"How is a guy supposed to know if a reformed bad girl is really leaving her promiscuous past behind? How can a guy know that she's not "damaged goods" (that is, has a reduced ability to associate sex with love, or to form intimate emotional connections)? How could a guy know she really believes that, after all the guys before him, he's the special one?"
I don't have enough time to really dissect this one but here's a quick stab at it:
How do you define 'bad girl'--someone who had sex once or twice and then didn't tell her husband-to-be that she had done so? Does this person fit the definition of 'bad girl' or 'promiscuous'?
I'd argue that the woman who has had sex in relationships isn't a reformed bad girl. She's someone who has had sex.
Can I flip your question?
"How is anyone to know that their partner will be faithful, true and able to have a healthy relationship?" Whether or not they have had a sexual experience in the past. We get posts here from guys who have only been with one woman and they are contemplating cheating because they feel they are missing out. Wouldn't this be a valid worry? Someone who has had a little sexual experience could be considered to have sampled what's out there and has settled on the ideal partner. (Assuming both have had sex.) We have lots of posts where the sexual drives of the partners are vastly different and in some cases the sex drive of one has completely dried up.
Getting into a relationship and committing to marriage is a leap of faith.
The ability to form intimate connection, a deep bond, should be pretty evident, I would think. After a year of dating someone, don't you think you would have a good idea of whether or not they can do it? It seems obvious and easy to me, but perhaps it's not to those out there in dating land. The point remains that there is no crystal ball to see into someone's heart. At some point, you are going to have to trust that person. If you have trouble trusting, then even if you date a girl who has never so much as kissed a guy, your mind will begin to wonder if she might stray at some point, wouldn't you think?
There was that whole chastity belt thing--lock 'em up, even if they were virgins prior to marriage, right?
My point is you can't ever know for certain that your partner/spouse won't stray. You have to have trust in them.
Okay, that's all I've got for now. Sorry if I have left some discussion points out of this, I just don't have the time to devote as I would like.
Take care all! And remember, play nice. Many anons on this site like to sit there and take shots at people, and it does seem rather cowardly. I mean, it's as anonymous as you want to make it, right?
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reader, Odds +, writes (20 August 2010):
 @ The Anon:
I can rephrase my question, if it will help (I've already agreed not to say "slut," for similar reasons). It appears that I touched a nerve, and if you have been hurt in the past by similar comparisons, I hope you possess enough self-assurance to recover from it. The intent of my words was to express feelings, not to hurt them, but if two words of sexism (and all they imply) warrant two paragraphs of anonymous bile (and all that implies), perhaps we can just ignore each other from here on.
We can disagree on the nature of promiscuous urges, but what is natural and what is right are not the same thing. Feelings should not be condemned, but some actions must be.
The point I probably should state outright is that I really, truly believe that everyone would be happier if everyone were less promiscuous. For example, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone, male or female, who does not believe the world would be a better place if that small percentage of men pumping and dumping 300 girls in their lifetime would cut it out.
So, to restate my question:
...this could really apply for both genders, but I'll write from a male perspective again.
How is a guy supposed to know if a reformed bad girl is really leaving her promiscuous past behind? How can a guy know that her past has reduced her ability to romantically bond and enjoy sex on an emotional level? How could a guy know she really believes that, after all the guys before him, he's the special one?
Note that the question is "how can a guy know," not "how can it possibly be true." Perception is just as important as reality, and if there is no way to address one person's feelings, why is it wrong for them to just leave and find someone less experienced?
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reader, anonymous, writes (20 August 2010): Yos, I'm sorry but I take serious offense at being referred to as damaged goods. It's incredibly disrespectful and so incredibly sexist it literally makes me see red. I am not goods first off, as I am a human being. Not an object. I do have sympathy for men suffering from this as I have stated you cannot control your feelings and everyone feels jealous. I have sympathy for the jealousy people feel. But the way some people refer to this is sexist. I will not tolerate being referred to as an item, which has been somehow broken or damaged by some other man. It paints women as objects who are owned, like used cars. Every time the car is used, it loses some value. And I am not an object, I am a human being. Being penetrated does not make me lose value like a scratch on a car. I am disgusted that a woman can be talked about in such terms. I'm sorry, but seeing as I was just felt up on the street by a hobo cause I'm a pretty "thing" I am very sick of being thought of as a thing to be acquired.
As for the anonymous posting, I know it's a dumb reason, but when I get into these debates my ratings on this site go WAY down (from above 8 to usually around 7.5) and I'm proud of my high ratings from other aunts and OPs. I am debating, not trying to be as diplomatic and objective as I am when I answer questions. I've noticed it happens to other female posters who argue anything about porn as well.
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reader, Yos +, writes (20 August 2010):
"I lost every last ounce of respect I had for you when you referred to women with sexual pasts as damaged goods"
Anon, please have some manners yourself. We are talking about a condition where men explicitly feel women with sexual pasts are damaged goods; so of course it will come up here. Not attacking men who suffer from this is the entire point of this discussion. A point you appear to have missed?
If you want us to repext you, you can also stop posting behind the cloak of anonimity.
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reader, anonymous, writes (20 August 2010): Any assumptions about what is best innately is speculation at best. Yes, gorillas sort of have harems. But in these harems it's extremely common for the female gorillas to sneak off and mate with other males. As well, chimpanzees don't have harems. The males don't have more sex than the females either. Nearly ever study in the past decade or so is realizing that women don't actually generally have lower libidos than men, as well they are realizing that women don't have a lower desire to cheat than men. So basically what we can conclude is that men and women have about equal sex drives (yes, there's the myth of the lower female sex drive but most anecdotal evidence is contrary to that) and that men and women cheat equal amounts. Men are not "meant" to have more partners. If they were there wouldn't be more men born than women.
"Civilization (and the idea of monogamous marriage in particular) prevents this state of nature, offering wommen the exclusive protection of a man in exchange for sexual loyalty."
Marriage is not to "protect" women. Marriage was instated by men (not women) first off to protect the royal lineage. As well it is, as you say to keep women in check because they cheat so much (just as much as men). It's an agreement, I won't have sex with others if you won't because both parties suffer. Men aren't "made" to have more sex partners than women. It's an absurd assumption and generalization that isn't backed by science, quite the opposite in fact.
I would look up a bunch of studies and prove you wrong, but I lost every last ounce of respect I had for you when you referred to women with sexual pasts as damaged goods. That's a ludicrously sexist and politically incorrect statement and I hope no woman should ever have the unfortunate circumstance of having to prove that she's not damaged goods due to having had sex before you.
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reader, Odds +, writes (17 August 2010):
@ Miamine
I think we're just talking about two different groups of guys. Frat boy culture is one thing, I'm talking about more traditionally-minded family and church folks. The rest of society is debatable, and TV culture is a royal mess. Not sure which section of the culture you're thinking of. We can agree to disagree on the content, though I admit I was not careful in the delivery.
In any event, it is heartening to see someone trying so hard to see how others think. I'll try to find a better word than "slut" for now.
@ Anon, Re: evolution
Chimps and monkeys tend to screw everything in sight. Gorillas, baboons, orangutans, and humans tend to form more of a dominance heirarchy in a state of nature (human civilization prevents this). In these heirarchies, a handful of males (silverbacks, alphas, dominant males, whatever you want to call them) get all the sex, and all the other males get little or nothing until they can depose the top-tier male.
The human male drive to promiscuity is not independent of the desire for attachment. Top-tier strategy is to have several primary mates, but get lots on the side (because a few minutes is nothing compared to even a tiny chance at reproduction). Humans tended to form bands large enough for this to happen - as well as raiding other bands and capturing their women.
Civilization (and the idea of monogamous marriage in particular) prevents this state of nature, offering wommen the exclusive protection of a man in exchange for sexual loyalty. Importantly, everyone agrees not to touch each others' spouses (though cheating exists, always has and always will). Entire books have been written on this (The second half of "The Red Queen" by Mat Ridley, or "Why Men Gamble and Women Buy Shoes" by Satoshi Kanezawa are good ones), but that's the gist of it.
I'd like to ask a question, though. Thinking about it, this could really apply for both genders, but I'll write from a male perspective again.
How is a guy supposed to know if a reformed bad girl is really leaving her promiscuous past behind? How can a guy know that she's not "damaged goods" (that is, has a reduced ability to associate sex with love, or to form intimate emotional connections)? How could a guy know she really believes that, after all the guys before him, he's the special one?
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reader, anonymous, writes (17 August 2010): "those who asking about the rape comparison.
Everyone has something that is intolerable to them. This could be it for them. The bad past."
Holy cow, you actually do think it's a fair comparison, having a sexual past and being raped. You obviously have no respect for the horrendous, monstrous, life-destroying crime that is rape. I'm sorry, but that's really crossing the line.
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reader, anonymous, writes (17 August 2010): I both agree and disagree about the insecurity issue. I think yes, women who sleep around are generally more insecure. I do think men who sleep around are more insecure than those who don't though, rather than the other way around.
However, I would like to make a point about the male need to spread seed and sleep around. This has little to no basis in science. It is purely speculation, mostly from outside the scientific community. If this were indeed true that men are naturally more promiscuous, then why do we not see anything similar in any other primates/apes? In our closest relatives, the chimpanzees, it is actually the females who philander and are promiscuous more than the males. And the idea that men who sleep around a lot are more likely to produce offspring would be a good idea in theory. However, women are only fertile for 5 days in the whole cycle. As well, when the male reaches her, she might already be pregnant, she might not be on one of the fertile days. Even if he does land on a fertile day, the sperm has a somewhat low chance (considerably less than 50%) of reaching the egg. If somehow the egg does get fertilized, she has around a 30% chance of miscarriage. All in all, each meeting would have only a 1-2% of making a baby. Then, once the baby is born, if another male came along he would kill the baby to make room for his own. Not to mention when humans first evolved, population density was so low and travel risks were so high, that the odds of even finding another female let alone having the energy to attract her or rape her are ridiculously low. Then try the strategy of "mate-guarding" what all other closely related apes do. A much higher chance of successfully producing offspring. So it's a nice theory and it seems good as an easy answer, but no banana. Men aren't programmed to spread their seed any more than women.
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reader, Pyroshadow +, writes (17 August 2010):
@Yos
I was talking from a personal exp. My case is one of the more extreame ones.
@those who asking about the rape comparison.
Everyone has something that is intolerable to them. This could be it for them. The bad past.
My case, have sex blindfolded with 6-8 stranger your partner had picked out.
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reader, Yos +, writes (16 August 2010):
You ask good questions Miamine. I will try to answer. You say:
"Many jealousy posts are from men who have remained virgins or had few partners, who then are given the news that their woman has slept with the whole world"
Yes that happens often. It is not the only time retroactive jealousy happens however: it can happen to a man who has had many lovers himself, and it happens often to woman who dan only had sex with a few men. Which has made me realise it is not really about quantity. Quantity has an effect for sure, but it is not the reason for retroactive jealousy. It's not the cause, but only something that can make it worse.
But back to your question: why is it so common that a man with few sexual partners ends up with a woman with so many?
Consider this possibility:
What kind of man has very few lovers until he settles with someone he loves? And what kind of women has very many lovers until she settles with someone she loves?
I think the answer is often the same: someone who is not confident, who has low self esteem.
For an unconfident guy it's most common for him not to have much sex. But for an unconfident woman, it's common for her to have a lot of sex!
This may sound strange, but for example, in 'tips' for men on how to be a 'player', the most common advice is to find an unconfident woman and to flatter her. It is usually the insecure women who will sleep with a man to feel attractive and desirable, and most easily fall for the flattery of a man who just wants sex. I have experienced this myself: how easy it can be to make an insecure woman be attracted to you sexually compared to a woman who is more secure and strong in what she wants. It is the strong women who say 'no' if they do not really want you.
What does this mean?
It means that the same kind of personality type: unconfident and insecure; results in such a big difference. Men who do not have much opportunity for sex and women who end up having a lot in situations they after regret.
It means that it is often the same kind of personality types end up in relationships that have a high chance of retroactive jealousy. A couple: two people who were unconfident in themselves yet found each other and fell in love. The man having had little sexual experience and the woman having 'too much'. Yet the both of them quite similar, often quite suited to each other, and also in love. Which is a terrible tragedy: two people so similar yet in so much pain. Two people who should have empathy and understanding for each other, but instead are destroyed by jealousy and misunderstanding.
I just want to add that although i've labelled people as 'unconfident and insecure', in life we all have times when we are like this. It's as much about certain times in our past as it is about who we are now and who we can be in the future. People change. By overcoming our insecurities we can overcome retroactive jealousy.
Miamine, you said something else I want to comment on:
"why should men be asked to understand, accept or forgive such behaviour if they have been taught a different type of morality…"
In that sentence you put your finger right on the biggest problem with morality. And also on the biggest misunderstanding.
Think about the phrase you use: "a different type of morality".
This phrase is a contradiction. A paradox!
Morality means… a shared value system that we live by. The important part of that is the 'shared' part. When we believe something to me moral, we believe it applies not only to ourselves: but to others too. We naturally expect our moral beliefs to apply to the whole world: this is why we can judge others by them. If our morality was only ours, then we could never make moral judgements about other people because our morality would not apply to them. Morality is in its essence a universal value system, not an individual one. This is what makes something a moral instead of a personal belief.
This means that if a man with retroactive jealousy believes he has a 'different' morality to his partner, then he should also believe that his morality does not apply to her… since her morality is different. Or, to put it in similar words to your question: if a man's wife has been taught 'a different type of morality, then what right does a man have to judge her by his own, different, morality?
The answer is none.
I have come to learn that morality is something different altogether. It's not about criticising and judging others. It's not about us seeing ourselves 'better than' or 'purer than' another person. Instead it is about putting ourselves in their shoes: understanding their feelings and their life, and accepting them for who they are. The moral choice is to understand and accept, not to judge and disapprove. Every religion teaches this, and so do most of the accepted secular moral philosophies.
Now consider your question again:
"why should men be asked to understand, accept or forgive such behaviour if they have been taught a different type of morality…"
The answer is that a man who has been taught that has not been taught morality at all. Rather he has been taught a particular social code that is now damaging his life, his love and his partner. And, if he is a moral man, he should let go of his judgments and negative feelings, and instead understand her, accept her and love her.
This is the truly moral act: to overcome our own negative beliefs that are hurting us and our partner, and to be willing to change ourselves and become happy, and bring harmony.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (16 August 2010):
Actually, picking up the morality part... many guys with this retrograde jealousy make a point of pointing out that the values of the woman who sleeps around disgusts them very much...
This is the point that Odds and Pyroshadow were trying to make I think... Many jealousy posts are from men who have remained virgins or had few partners, who then are given the news that their woman has slept with the whole world...
This is difficult for them to process and understand because they have been taught that good girls wait and keep their bodies pure, whilst bad girls have no respect for themselves and will sleep with any and everyone...
This is the question that Pyroshadow left me with.. a woman who sleeps with many men, why shouldn't she be called promiscuous (hate the word slut) and why shouldn't she be judged for her behaviour by people who think that sex is special and should only be done with one person who you love and adore and intended to stay with for life..Yes relationships break up, so yes, a couple of partners is understandable, but 20, 30, 40, 50 or more, why should your partner believe that you think that sex with them is special.....
This question got me stuck.... why should men be asked to understand, accept or forgive such behaviour if they have been taught a different type of morality...
Sigh... am still thinking...
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reader, Yos +, writes (16 August 2010):
Working on the book :) Thanks!
You said:
"Only a few decades ago, it was pretty much unthinkable for women to go out and have one night stands or have any sex outside of wedlock but now its almost thought of as being a rite of passage during the uni years etc."
This is true. But when looking at history, we tend to look back a generation or two and no further.
Things were conservative in the 1950s for sure. They were also very conservative in England in the late 1800s as well.
But then look at the US in the 1920s with the 'flappers': a new generation of women for whom being more sexual was completely acceptable!
Or go back to the Romans, where female sexuality was celebrated and our Christian anti-sex values had yet to arrive. Rich, respectable Roman women would regularly pay money to have sex with male gladiators who were essentially slaves. This was considered perfectly acceptable behaviour for upper class women!
Basically, it's wrong to say things were more conservative in the past.
What is historically correct is that different societies have been more or less pro-female sexuality at different times. There have been some very conservative times in human history, but there have also been some very liberal times. Our current trend is not unique, it's not the first time this has happened.
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reader, anonymous, writes (16 August 2010): This a great thread. Although I would like to add that, things are slowly changing when it comes to the double standards of one night stands and sexual expression. Only a few decades ago, it was pretty much unthinkable for women to go out and have one night stands or have any sex outside of wedlock but now its almost thought of as being a rite of passage during the uni years etc.
This said, its very hard to overcome the innate dislike of women who sleep around. Biologically speaking, men cannot afford to waste resources on children that are not theirs and although now this is much less of an issue its still hard wired into us. The slander created by other women when it comes to 'sluts' is probably also innate. By pointing out the 'sluts' the other women can secure more mates for themselves.
In order to overcome RJ, the best thing to do would be to only have one partner in your whole entire life. Of course,t his is not possible Or rather it is not probable in this day and age so the next best thing would be soem good solid tips on how to deal with this. Yos, write a book.
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reader, Yos +, writes (16 August 2010):
The root of the double standard is our genetics and biology. Certainly it would be possible for societies to exist where this double standard was seen as unacceptable, but given it's deep roots its not easy, and would always tend to return.
The biology is complex, but it comes down to the simple fact that sleeping with multiple partners can only result in one child every year or so for a woman, whilst a man can theoretically create a child every time he has sex. Unless in the future we create children in vats ala brave new world, or men routinely become pregnant, this imbalance will remain.
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reader, anonymous, writes (15 August 2010): It's definitely true q. I think women are actually more loud and vicious about calling each other whores and sluts than men are. When I hear men talking about the issue, I think the more often than not are complaining to their friends or family, whereas women will make sure everyone knows she's a slut and will call her that to her face more. Basically slandering her. Why women do this to each other? It's because is one woman is calling the other a slut, it elevates the name caller above the others. It's very complicated, but yes, women are generally cattier to each other. We bring others down by destroying their self-esteem and reputation in an effort to keep ourselves on top. It's awful. I'm more afraid of being called a slut by a woman, but it hurts more if a man says it. Obviously these are just anecdotal observations, but it seems to hold true for everywhere I've been in North America anyways. As with everything, I think no one is in the right and as with everything it requires education and a little more banding together. The sluttiness thing is a double standard, but yes women definitely perpetuate it. More than men. But we do so in order to make men like us, rather than the skanks and sluts that we created. Because we know men don't want a "slut" even if she really isn't one.
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reader, anonymous, writes (15 August 2010): "Namely that many women encourage 'man-sluts' because they sleep with them. That is a form of approval."It's a combination of everyone really. Men in that they high-five each other and celebrate their conquests. They're encouraged to accumulate as many bed post notches as they can, as that will elevate them to alpha male super stud status. Women sleep with them because usually these super studs are very smooth, very handsome, and elevate them in status in some way in a sense for being sexy enough to be picked. However, at the end of the day no woman wants to stay with this guy as they know he's a player who sleeps with everything that moves to boost his ego. A woman who does the same is generally not respected farther than a booty call or one night stand either.The problem comes though in that women who sleep around are called sluts for doing much less than the men, and put in a much lower social spot than the equivalent man. Men can be called sluts, but it's nearly never used outside of joking around (oh man dude you're such a slut hahaha). The majority of the time that that word is used in a truly negative way is to label women. She is a lowly slut, he is a quite a bit higher player. You'll notice there's no magazine marketed towards women that uses this word, slut, in its title. There is however, a playboy as the player is somewhat celebrated for bedding women. They're only equality is that no one really wants to date either.As well we must examine the roots of "slut-shaming." One important reason that women have always taken the brunt of being labeled negatively for promiscuity is that before birth control was popular and widely available, the promiscuous woman could get pregnant. Calling women bad names and lowering them in society was a way to prevent unwanted children. Unfortunately even though we now have reliable cheap birth control, the stigma is still attached.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (15 August 2010):
Men and women BOTH, encourage the idea of the promiscuous male super stud lover.. :)
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reader, Miamine +, writes (15 August 2010):
"But as you admit sometimes you speak too soon rather than taking the time to reflect on what has been said. I think this has happened here."
@ Yos....
I hate that word Slut.... grrrrr
But yes, I was wrong... :)
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reader, Yos +, writes (15 August 2010):
@ Miamine
To this...
"The only people who seem to approve of man-sluts are women themselves (evidenced by the fact that they, by definition, continue to date and sleep with man-sluts), and not even all of those by a long shot."
You responded...
"You have a very strange view of the world, it doesn't seem to be based on anything approaching reality, and doesn't correspond to the many posts that appear on this Dear Cupid website."
Miamine, you know I respect your opinion and your insights. But as you admit sometimes you speak too soon rather than taking the time to reflect on what has been said. I think this has happened here.
What Odds said does make sense seen from a certain perspective. Namely that many women encourage 'man-sluts' because they sleep with them. That is a form of approval.
I'll give you an example. My oldest friend is one of these guys. He has slept with over 300 women. I've seen him pick up a perfectly normal girl on a bus and take her right home and sleep with her. Many times. The girls are willing participants, he's very clear they're not getting anything more than sex, and they're totally fine with that. So far over 300 women have agreed to do this with him... that's a lot of women who think 'man-sluts' are totally ok, and that they're willing to have sex with one! He is, I should add, incredibly handsome, charming, funny and confident. As well as being a great musician. But also isn't manipulative or dishonest: it's very clear what he's offering and what he's not offering.
So, in a sense, many women do condone this male behaviour: because they have casual sex with a guy like that. I believe most women would do that, in the right mood and circumstances (the majority of women have had one night stands).
Personally I wouldn't use the word slut. I've come to realise that people can have intimate, meaningful sex, and they can also have random casual sex. One is certainly more fulfilling than the other, but neither is right or wrong. There is nothing wrong with two people having casual sex if they want to.
Words like 'slut' imply some kind of moral judgement. ie, that casual sex is somehow wrong. It is this false belief that traps so many men in the hell that is retroactive jealousy. They would rather cling to this moral judgment than let go of it and be free of the pain of RJ.
Why?
Personally I now believe that the men who call women sluts are doing it as a form of ego-preservation against these few men, like my friend, who have the ability to get so many women into bed seemingly effortlessly. The rest of us men like to make ourselves feel better by saying 'well at least we are ethical'. It's our way of making ourselves feel better about the fact we don't have their genes and charm, and just can't pull women like they can. I've seen this over and over again from men suffering from retroactive jealousy, and I did it myself when I was suffering.
If lots of women want to have one night stands with the super-handsome charming alpha-males, well, that's their choice. It's been happening for millions of years, and will keep on going on until we become extinct as a species. And it has nothing to do with morality.
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reader, anonymous, writes (15 August 2010): "It's no different form a woman refusing to marry a man just because he's been to prison twice for victimless crimes (it's all in the past, right?)."
Well sex isn't illegal and doesn't hurt anyone (quite the opposite when done well). There's really no such thing as a victimless crime. Someone or something is hurt, that's why it's illegal. To reiterate, sex=fun/good. Going to jail=illegal/morally wrong things. They're not the same. Men have sex, women have sex, it's pointless to try and find something else to compare it to. The only equivalents to women with lots of sexual partners are men with lots of sexual partners.
"If women are "stifled" it is only in that most men don't want a former slut for a wife, which every slut-in-the-making knows before starting. They have every right to feel that way, and are not bad people for doing so."
Exactly? Women are stifled because men, like yourself, unfairly label them as sluts for having sex with anyone else even before meeting their current partner. Yos said it brilliantly below, that this has a lot to do with proportion. In order to justify the feelings, the sexual acts are blown out of proportion even if they did nothing wrong in the slightest. Like Miamine said, women are called sluts while men are called studs. I was going to get all indignant and launch into a tirade about this paragraph, but nothing I say could possibly point out how sexist it was better than that which came from the horse's mouth.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (15 August 2010):
"The only people who seem to approve of man-sluts are women themselves (evidenced by the fact that they, by definition, continue to date and sleep with man-sluts), and not even all of those by a long shot."
You have a very strange view of the world, it doesn't seem to be based on anything approaching reality, and doesn't correspond to the many posts that appear on this Dear Cupid website.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (15 August 2010):
"Since when is it "OK" for a man to be promiscuous?"
Men are called studs and applauded by other men when they ;have sex with many women. Men and boys boast about the amount of women they have slept with and always lie and say the number is high. Men call other men gay and homosexual if they are virgins, they reject and make fun of virgin males...
I don't know which world you live in, but anon is completely right about the double standards that exist. Only in religious communities is male promiscuity looked down on and forbidden. Mainstream art and culture backs up the view that a man with many female partners is someone who is looked up to..
In most societies men are not expected to remain virgins, and are expected to take as many partners as they can before they are married.
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reader, Odds +, writes (15 August 2010):
@ The Anon Below, Re: Sexist double standards
Since when is it "OK" for a man to be promiscuous? No one is saying man-sluts are good; quite the opposite. Fathers warn their daughters to stay away from cads, husbands search diligently for a wife who has steered clear of them all her life, brothers try to chase the rakes away before their sisters get used and hurt.. The only people who seem to approve of man-sluts are women themselves (evidenced by the fact that they, by definition, continue to date and sleep with man-sluts), and not even all of those by a long shot.
The closest to approval those types of guys get from other men is the acknowledgment that it takes a very rare charisma to sleep with many, many women. A guy who can do that should, logically, be able to teach a lot about women - a subject that many other men find confusing.
Sluts of either gender are not physically prevented from being sluts. There's no law against it, and the means to sleep around indisriminately without catching a disease or having a kid are cheaply available in any drug store. If women are "stifled" it is only in that most men don't want a former slut for a wife, which every slut-in-the-making knows before starting. They have every right to feel that way, and are not bad people for doing so. It's no different form a woman refusing to marry a man just because he's been to prison twice for victimless crimes (it's all in the past, right?).
Only women as a group can eliminate the double standard is for women to stop knowlingly rewarding cads for their promiscuity. These types of guys do not care what other men think.
Personally, I wish I didn't care about a girl's past, but I do, and I know it makes rational sense to care. That narrows my dating pool quite a bit, but we all have to live with our own standards.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (14 August 2010):
Ah.. thank you Yos.. finally I understand the feelings people get through Retrograde jealousy. I have clinical depression and in the past I have felt bad enough to try to end my life...It wasn't rational, and it wasn't controlable and at the time I didn't see this, death made perfect sense to me. Once I was given anti-depressants I was able to think sensibly. I now know that my negative thoughts was a symptom of my sickness and not sensible at all...Now if I get bad thoughts, I am able to see that they are destructive and take steps to ask for help to remain normal and not do anything stupid...Out of all proportion, yes I can see this now, and I understand that the pain and suffering that someone with retroactive jealousy feels... Nope, telling someone to get over it, forget about the past is useless... it's a form of sickness, the brain has gone funny.
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reader, Yos +, writes (14 August 2010):
@Pyroshadow
You said "Trying to tell him that its not his fault he loves someone who has done such awful things."
The problem with retroactive jealousy is one of proportion. In the great majority of cases the woman has done nothing out of the ordinary.
She's had sex, basically. Maybe some one night stands, perhaps an unhealthy relationship or two. That's it. Normal, common, everyday, average.
Yet the guy with retroactive jealousy blows these acts out of proportion so they become, as you put it 'awful things'.
In cases where truly awful things have happened then the situation is different. But in most cases I've heard of, her past is quite normal and it is the guy who has lost his sense of proportion as his jealousy distorts reality.
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reader, werther  +, writes (14 August 2010):
if you are in a relation ship a serious one, you give all that you got, holding back trust is going to wreck it....not trusting your partner (that had sex before you)after you heard what they have done is you steping out of the relation, you should never be with someone because they are so in love with you, or you are their best partner, you should be with some one that you LOVE, if you cant trust them after hearing these things , look at yourself..... she gave you a gift , she trusted you when she said this, guard what she said to you, don´t disrespect her honesty.... she didn´t do those things to hurt you(unless she is daily rubbing it in your face (although some spouses/partners enjoy getting that rubbed in))i used SHE alot but it could just as well be HEit can be hard to trust like that,but with it you might last for a very long time.....so for me sexcommunication Trust lovethey all go hand in handif you lose one you could end up losing them all
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reader, anonymous, writes (14 August 2010): "Is the feelings of jealousy really as strong as the complete devastation and worthlessness people feel when they have been raped."
Wow I hope not. If I'd really hurt my boyfriend that much I don't think I could live with myself. If I hurt anyone that much. You know Godwin's law, that whoever mentions the Nazis first loses? I think comparing to rape is similar.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (14 August 2010):
Yes, anon, I asked Pyroshadow the same question, but it hasn't come through, so I'll ask it again, and no judgement is meant.....
Is the feelings of jealousy really as strong as the complete devastation and worthlessness people feel when they have been raped.
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reader, anonymous, writes (14 August 2010): @ Pyroshadow:
I guess I missed part of your post, but it kind of appalls me that you would compare having a sexual past to being raped. And it's not like she can change the past. It's not like she cheated on you. It's not like she did something horrible in the past. She had sex/gave blowjobs/whatever. I'm still kind of in shock that you'd compare sexual pasts to rape.
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reader, anonymous, writes (14 August 2010): I really want to try to be understanding of the guys who feel this about women (not based on religion or moral reasons to remain virgins). I really do because I understand you can't control your feelings.
That said, this is an incredibly sexist "problem." Women are put under far greater scrutiny than men in regards to sex. If she has sex like a man, she's clearly a slut and undeserving of love. If she's had sex when not in a committed relationship, clearly a slut. But if men have casual sex, they're just being guys. Following their libidos. It's a complete double standard. Women have libidos too, but when women express their sexuality in any way other than that which is currently socially acceptable (even if it's still less promiscuous than what is OK for guys), then there's something wrong with her. Women are held to this ridiculous standard that men aren't. There's also the whole madonna-whore complex, which is very readily apparent in that guys want a whore in the bedroom, but no way they'd ever marry one. They need a virgin to bring to their families (by virgin I mean someone with less than say, 2 partners). Men are free to express sexuality in really any way they want, but women are stifled. I mean look what happens here? Some of the men on here sound genuinely angry that people think it's OK and acceptable for a woman to be sexual before meeting her current partner.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (12 August 2010):
Oh dear, Pyroshadow, your one of the people I'm talking about who is helping me learn to understand this jealousy thing...
As I said, I'm still pondering hard about the last question you set...
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reader, Dorothy Dix +, writes (11 August 2010):
When you meet a new partner, once you get to know whether you like each other and get along, with things in common, it's really of no consequence, the previous sexual experience each has had.
That's ancient history and has no relevance in the grand scheme of things. It doesn't mean that the one with more experience has been unfaithful. It simply means that they have dated more. Besides, it was before they met you anyway.
Perhaps in very young people (teenage to early 20's), one might be anxious about it. That's really more to do with self-esteem than anything else. A feeling of self-consciousness and maybe of being judged by the other more experienced partner.
In later years - mid 20's onwards, you could naturally expect that they might have been with someone. It's probably unrealistic to have the expectation of no previous sexual experience.
Is there any real need for virginity prior to marriage anyway? What would it really prove? Certainly, just because one has had sex with a couple of partners before they met you, doesn't mean that they don't love you.
The whole of life is a journey.
It's much more important that you both have genuine feelings for each other and that you love and respect each other completely. That is what will make you truly happy.
Best Wishes.
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reader, Pyroshadow +, writes (10 August 2010):
@ Miamine,
I know we have gone over this before privately, but just in-case there are others who also are strong women who are looking out for other women.
"they become no longer worthy of respect...."
Yes, So what? You are 100% right. So people can not be with someone who is not the same religion, same skin color, same social status, ect. This just one of those things.
Also,
Yeah the women with colorful past have made bad decisions. We all do, and we all have to live the consequence of our actions. For these women, their colorful past might cost them the most meaningful and most caring partner they ever had.
THIS DOES NOT MAKE THAT GUY A BAD GUY.
Why should he have to suffer with his emotions because of the poor decisions made by his partner?
When questioning these women, these men are often trying to understand why they did what they did and trying to find a way to accept their partner.
"shut up and get over it brigade.. the past is the past",
Is bullshit. It just is. Maybe one day the people who say this will understand. Maybe....
Saying the past is the past is like telling the victim of spousal rape that though shit. The past is the past. Get over what he did to you or leave him.
Now if you believe that telling a victim of spousal rape the past is the past is the best advice. You do not belong here on this site.
You have to view the man who is with a woman who has colorful past as the victim, because he is. He was seeking a life partner. Yeah, He was not expecting a virgin he knows every girl has some past. But when the past is so extreme and he has already fallen in love with the girl he has to question himself.
You should be trying to help him. Trying to tell him that its not his fault he loves someone who has done such awful things. That it is okay if he can not love her, that it's okay to let go. That he shouldn't feel bad for letting go of her and shouldn't stay with her for her stake just because he is the best guy she ever dated. Its her mistakes and something she has to deal with, not him.
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reader, Odds +, writes (10 August 2010):
@ OP: You're half right about the sex being something won or bestowed. However, I'm writing from the perspective of a man. Sex from me also has to be won or bestowed on the girl in question - I'm just writing from my own shoes. She may very well be worrying that I'm thinking of prettier or raunchier girls from my past. Maybe she worries that loved longer, more tenderly (or more roughly, if she's into that) with other girls than I would bother to do with her. That's just speculation, though; I'm writing what I know.
For that matter, there's always the pressure on guys to have a certain minimum level of experience. It's the price we pay for having a higher standard before retroactive jealousy kicks in (with most girls, anyway).
I also missed a point in my last post about the predictive nature of past behavior. If a business partner cheated you, would you work with them again? If a politician broke every campaign promise, would you vote for them again? On a more positive note, if your best friend has always come through when you needed them most, would you call on them in the future?
Everything we know in life is based on how things worked out in the past. So, if I'm with someone who slept around, cheated on their exes, and generally displayed a lack of both self-control and empathy, odds are pretty good they're going to continue that behavior in the future. If they claim to have changed their ways - well, it's the evidence on one side and their word on the other.
If I choose to accept their word over the evidence, I risk serious emotional harm if they're lying (or even just honestly wrong). I they're right... well, I'm still going to feel intense jealousy. Thank you, mother nature. Either way, it doesn't pan out.
I'm not saying anyone should be forbidden from having a past, and I would never look down on anyone who did. I just recognize that a past is incompatible with my desires in a girlfriend, and I politely excuse myself from those relationships to avoid the drama, wishing them the best of luck in the future.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (10 August 2010):
I'm one of the "shut up and get over it brigade.. the past is the past", but with the help from you men brave enough to tell their stories, I'm learning my advice is not helpful at all...
I'm learning...
But, I speak to a lot of women who suffer at the hands of men that continuously demand they relive a past that is gone, who insult them and call them nasty names, men that think because they made mistakes when they were young, they become no longer worthy of respect....
With the help of the people on DC, I am learning to control my temper and think about the person with jealousy in a more sympathetic way....
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reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (9 August 2010):
Tisha-1 is verified as being by the original poster of the question@Stonemason, thanks for posting. No, your situation wasn't one of the ones I was referring to. I've been on DC for a while now and the situation I see again and again is the man who posts that he's just found out his wife wasn't a virgin, or that she had more sexual history than he knew about (anywhere from handjobs through oral sex to multiple partners). These guys are devastated to find their wife of 10 or 20 or 30 years had lied to them. It's a real problem when there is such a history in the marriage and children are involved.
Your situation seems to be one where your wife is bragging about her previous sexual activity? Where she is actually kind of taunting you? Wow. No, I was not speaking to that situation. She does sound manipulative and punishing to bring it up over and over again. Very strange thing to do, to try to undermine her husband in such a low way. I trust you have made good progress with getting her to see how that is hurtful and that she has stopped that bizarre behavior?
@Odds, thank you for an insight into some thought processes that go on here. What intrigues me about that post was the notion that sex is something to be won from or bestowed by the female to the male. Is this part of that evolutionary theory you referenced?
So for those reading now, the whole point of this thread is to allow a safe space for people to come and talk about this, rather than create more hurt and upset for these posters I described by telling them either "get over it, it's in the distant past"--not helpful or "dump her, she's a lying slut"--also no helpful.
I have no magical solution. I just have read a lot of answers here from aunts who approach this problem either from a position of anger and wishing to inflict further pain, or from a position of having been through the experience, searching for answers and coming up with strategies to cope. Sometimes the anon angry voices get so bitter that it becomes a detriment to the poster, the one with the immediate problem.
The OPs deserve helpful, nonjudgemental, practical advice, I think, so here's this spot for people who want to discuss/debate/argue and for people who want to come up with practical steps one can take to tackle the problem.
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reader, Odds +, writes (9 August 2010):
I'll leave aside the usual explanations I give for this issue on the site about instincts, hormones, and evolution. Instead, I'd like to address a lingering rational/emotional concern. We'll also assume that there are no past STD's or pregnancies to complicate the present.
When I'm with a girl long-term, I know the vast majority of them have a sexual past, and I'm fine with that. However, beyond a certain point, I start to wonder if I'm really so special anymore.
Leave out the emotional stuff for this next paragraph; we'll get to that.
I don't do one-night stands, but a lot of girls have. If a girl has had many one-night stands, and I date her long term, it takes me far longer to get into bed with her than the previous guys did. I have to pay more of my time, attention, and (theoretically) money to receive the same physical affection that a complete stranger did. Then, I have to wonder if she was doing more fun (deviant) things with some other guy than she is willing to with me. Essentially, she has given more freely and deeply of her body and sexuality to some other guy who offered nothing in return than to she has to me. Wow, sure makes me feel special.
Emotionally, the more men there are in her past, the greater chance she still has strong feelings for at least one of them. The chance is greater that she will be contacted by an ex looking for a booty call. The chance is greater that she will give in to one of these advances and cheat on me. Meanwhile, I have to compete with more men in her past to provide her the emotional "high" of love and devotion. She has beenw ith guys who know how to make every word attractive, and she has seen every screw-up in the book. After a certain amount of history, anything I can do would appear unoriginal to her. How can you fall in love with someone's words when you've heard similar ones from an ex years before?
Of course, this is all academic. None of us deserves more than we can get for ourselves. Most single girls these days have long, storied sexual histories, and will lie about them anyway. Whatever my feelings, I choose to ignore the past, but always remain ready to walk away. That sort of security is the only thing I've found that helps.
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reader, Stonemason +, writes (5 August 2010):
Your sentence, "It is a very real problem for the one who is devastated to discover the news that the wife or husband was not in fact a virgin prior to the marriage" creates a ridiculous scarecrow strawman for others to knock down, instead of an accurate portrayal of the resentful partner. I am one of these people I think you are talking about, resentful of my wife's alluding to her previous sexual history.Let me tell you, it's manipulative. It's a put-down to me because, obviously, it's form of bragging. Of course, I resent it. I resent her constantly bringing it up, citing it. I resent discovering "new names" of the men she went with. How do I deal with it now? I postpone making any remark until five or more minutes have passed, then I come out and refer to one of the 40 women I have been to bed with.This works. She is shutting up about her past. I am not jealous: I am irritated, irritated by her manipulation. By not remaining silent about my past, I have revealed to her that I had a great past of my own and that it was sheer politeness and consideration that previously kept me quiet.
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reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (31 July 2010):
Tisha-1 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionPM, thank you so much for contributing that good insight about the loss of trust issue. This is definitely something that people have to work through and it's not made easier by unspoken assumptions. I hope that anyone reading this has a good think about how those assumptions they might make could hurt a vulnerable person!
Werther, thank you for that quote. It gives us something to think about.
Yos, that was a wonderful post. You have so much insight, personal experience and just plain good advice for this situation. I think your approach is the healthiest and most understanding I've seen. "Just forget about" isn't actually practical advice. If they COULD forget about it, I'm sure they would.
I think you should write a book, actually. Or at the very least, take what you just wrote and submit it as an article! Thank you for your input here; it is greatly appreciated.
I think that assigning blame or negative words to the partner who has been sexually active is counterproductive. Calling someone a 'slut' isn't any more helpful than calling the other person an 'insecure wimp.' We need to find the language and the approach to the problem that will be most helpful.
Thank you all again for your comments; your input on this article is very much appreciated!
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reader, Yos +, writes (31 July 2010):
I'm writing this as someone who has experienced crippling retroactive jealousy at one stage of my life, and over time overcome it. Noting that having done so, it's not a permanent guarantee of being free of it, but rather a place where some ongoing effort is required not to fall back. But I am thankfully free of the obsession, the jealousy, and the agony.
It was the most painful experience of my life, and coming through it changed my personality and identity deeply.
I also post frequently here about it, and have read countless accounts, as well as had direct correspondence with numerous men who are suffering from this.
I'll state my overall feelings on this surprisingly common and often horribly crippling and painful condition. In other words, this post is a statement of opinion only, without focussing much on the justification:
- This is different for men and women. Mostly due to the different nature of male and female jealousy, but also for other reasons. This makes empathy about it, and communication about it particularly difficult between the sexes. Neither is 'right', but we are different, and that creates misunderstanding. This misunderstanding can quickly destroy relationships, as well as leading to nasty arguments between men and women on the subject in places such as this site. It also means the majority of women "don't get it" when it comes to understanding why men get so extremely tortured by this. No ones fault, that's just how it is. Men also suffer from this much more than women.
- It's not about how many past partners someone had, or what they did. I've seen this caused by a single kiss. And frequently men in their thirties are in agony over their wives having had perhaps one or two partners before them, which by almost any standard is very few.
- I believe this condition is essentially a form of obsessive compulsive disorder. The victim becomes compulsively obsessed with visualising their partners past sexual activities. These visualised images trigger jealousy and all the standard attendant jealous behaviours: intrusive questioning, distrust, paranoia, imagining things that didn't happen, and discounting positive information whilst over-weighting negative information. As well as mental anguish. The OCD keeps the condition continuous, triggering the jealous emotions and behaviour over and over in a vicious circle. It can also make it very hard to communicate to someone about, as when they are in their obsessive jealous state they are not generally open to much meaningful input; instead being caught up in their own inner turmoil.
- It happens mostly in loving relationships. Jealousy is shadow of love: the more we love, the more powerful the jealousy. It is often triggered at a point when a relationship becomes more committed. This makes the condition particularly tragic: since it is usually damaging what are loving and intimate relationships. ie, the good ones.
- It's not rational. The most common mistake is to blame the person experiencing this. We must understand it's not a choice on the part of the victim, and that the OCD and jealousy lead the rationalising of the situation. The person experiencing this is not choosing to have these feelings and thoughts, no more than the schizophrenic is choosing to become insane, or the narcissist is choosing their delusions. Blame is often flung at the retroactively jealous person, which is the wrong thing to do.
Because it's not rational, 'thinking your way out of it' is not possible. All the thinking does is feed the OCD, it is counter-productive. Each thought just triggers more obsessive visualisation, and more jealousy. This makes talking about it dangerous, since conversation requires thought, and those thoughts can trigger another attack.
- It's nothing to do with morality. As part of an attempt to grapple with their emotions, men frequently resort to 'moral judgements' and labels. Whore, slut, impure, etc. These are an attempt to make sense of their feelings, and to justify the illusions their jealousy is creating. Clutching at straws. But morality is essentially a complex set of rational rules, and as I have said, retroactive jealousy has nothing to do with rationality.
Personally I try to be highly sympathetic when helping men with this condition, but when it comes to moral judgements I will be very direct and intolerant of this specific part of their behaviour. Why? Because at the core of all morality, no matter it's particular flavour, lies empathy, compassion, forgiveness, and a letting go of judgment. Truly seeing the others point of view. Walking in their shoes. It's essential that anyone suffering from this condition understands this, and does not use morality as a weapon to judge, belittle and hurt, which is sadly usually the case.
- As a fusion of OCD and jealousy, this condition is biological in it's root causes, not cultural. Discussions about this often get caught up in cultural trends, double standards, modern society, feminism, etc. These are all dead ends.
In terms of practical advice, I generally believe these things:
- It's best not to go there. Don't ask questions, don't dig into the past. The more that is known, the more mental material there is to obsess over. Each additional piece of information is another log on the fire of the obsessive jealousy. However there are some exceptions: I do believe understanding someones emotional history is valuable in overcoming this, but this precludes the type of factual interrogation that retroactive jealousy seems to almost always lead to.
- Breaking up generally doesn't help. It may stop the immediate pain, but the condition is an inner one, and will return in future relationships, unless that person finds someone they consider 'pure'. Which admittedly does happen sometmise. For this reason I usually try to coach the victim to try to overcome it: it's a life condition and they may as well deal with it right away. On top of that, they're usually in love with the person they're jealous of, and love is precious, rare and worth saving.
- As for the solution, I agree with much of what Miamine has said below. Buddhist meditation is a very viable treatment. So is any kind of activity that teaches us to let go of obsessive thoughts and free our minds. Personally I found tai chi extremely valuable, but similar things like yoga etc are also very worth considering. There are many other tips and tricks that can help in this vein, such as mantras, visualisations and personal rituals. The aim is to refocus the mind away from the obsessive loop it is trapped in, and onto another path.
Since this is essentially a form of OCD, the standard treatments for OCD are also worth considering. This can include use of anti-depressants. The problem with the standard treatments for OCD is that, like regular treating OCD, they are often not particularly effective. OCD is a powerful disability, and required deep therapy to really beat. It takes time, a great therapist, and great determination. Unfortunately a relationship can often be irreversibly damaged in the mean time.
This is why I believe approaches in the category of meditation and tai chi are better: they can have a more immediate effect which can be felt relatively quickly and bring optimism and hope instead of the state of despair sufferers are usually in. But also this kind of approach is good for another reason:
I believe that in the end, to beat retroactive jealousy, it is necessary to change oneself a deep level. To let go of the embedded beliefs that are fuelling the obsession and jealousy. The (usually childhood-based) baggage that gives us the insecurities and patterns that make us vulnerable to retroactive jealousy. But to literally change who we are is possibly the most scary thing any of us ever have to undertake in our lives. We cling to our identity as the one true constant in our lives. When we realise that we must change, our lives become a sea of confusion and disorientation. We pull back from that cliff and retreat to our comfortable pattern: in this case retroactive jealousy.
This is something therapists often talk about: that the true barrier to being 'cured' is our own desire not to change. We cling to ourselves.
This is why meditation, tai chi, yoga, and the like can be effective. Because at their core they focus on the realisation that there is no 'I'. That our identities are an illusion and that by letting go of that illusion we can set ourselves free. We can free ourselves from the painful cycles of life, from 'samsara' as the Buddhists call it, and become at peace with ourselves. This is the prime objective of meditation.
The way out of retroactive jealousy take a conscious choice: to choose to become someone who does not care about our partners past. But to make that choice means that we must become a different person: namely the person we would be if we did not care. It's that fear of change that is the true barrier.
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reader, werther +, writes (30 July 2010):
i am not what i have done.... i am me, im am not my past sexual experiences, just like i am not the books i read or the car i drive( or don´t drive),
it might be hard to accept but the experiences i have had teach me about life the don´t become me...
quote from fightclub " i am not my ikea kitchen"
but really this is what i believe , dont confuse what you did, or what you want to do, with yourself,
it is about trust when you ask what the partners sexual history is like....
do you trust yourself to handle the answer, if he/she answers truthfully , don´t you have to respect that they gave a gift to you that you must be careful with...
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reader, PM +, writes (28 July 2010):
 A critical element in this discussion is the matter of trust. In my experience, many of the people who become devastated by this type of news feel a betrayal. They feel as though they have been misled and they have a difficult time trusting both their partner and themselves. It touches on, what I consider, a fundamental issue in: how well do you really know your partner? Many people build up illusions of who their partners are, full of assumptions which they never think to verify and, it's my opinion, that it is in those situations where an unexpected sexual history can be especially shattering.
In any case, when an unexpected sexual history is revealed, there is enough blame to go around; on one side for not asking and on the other side for not volunteering the information. Yes, you can get into issues of whether or not a person really demonstrates that they're a person who's capable of handling the truth or whether certain types of people are capable of being honest, but when it's all said and done, a mature, satisfying relationship is built around taking a very terrifying course of action: presenting who you are to the person you love, giving them the chance to accept or reject you for who you are and letting your partner do the same. A relationship based on anything less is going to be susceptible to half-truths and white lies coming to light so it's best to just get it all out there beforehand.
The fact of the matter is, once it's out in the open it can never be unsaid and the only thing to do is to figure out how to carry on. Questions like "Can you rebuild the trust between yourself and your partner? Can you accept your partner for who they are and not who you thought they were?" are at the forefront. In the end, it really comes down to whether or not you're willing to try to work things out or whether their sexual history is such a deal breaker that you're no longer able to be with them. If you're willing to work on it, then over time, the trust may be rebuilt, you may begin to see things from your partner's perspective and to understand why they did not tell and maybe even to understand why you did not ask. If, however, you don't think you can be with your partner any longer, then it may be wise to ask yourself how you can heal the scars from this breach so that they do not affect your future relationships by fostering unwarranted paranoia toward potential partners.
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reader, shoccs  +, writes (27 July 2010):
hahaha. Look being a virgin doesnt mean that person is good hearted or nice. A person can be very nice and good hearted but a non virgin. What we consider pure is justification of what the bible says. A virgin is pure untouched, sex is not dirty but is a gift that God has given to share with yor wife or husband.
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reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (27 July 2010):
Tisha-1 is verified as being by the original poster of the question@Serpico, no problem. If you don't think that this will be helpful to anyone, there's no need for you to link here.
It's like Q just said, we have seen post after post turn into unhelpful and possibly hurtful debate, rather than focusing on the OP. Here's the place to debate. If you have nothing to add, then don't. You have had the courtesy to comment with your account name and avatar. That's a good thing. Take care!
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reader, Serpico +, writes (26 July 2010):
Sorry - but IMO kind of a silly thread. Not unlike saying - "ok everyone who has ever been cheated on, post advice here."
Retro jealousy is a very case by case thing, and I wouldnt diminish the feelings of anyone with it by saying just go look in the general help section....
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female
reader, Miamine +, writes (26 July 2010):
"Virginity is just one of the many attributes that an individual wants in a person." (shoccs)
This is something that I don't understand. Are all virgin's nice, kind and thoughtfull.. Are there no virgin criminals in jail? (apart from kids that kill other kids) Why do people think that virginity (lack of sexual intercourse) make you a nicer person? What is it about sex that makes you ruined or destroyed somehow?
Never understood this.. Also never understood why a woman is seen as pure and special before she has sex, and 30minutes later after she has sex she is somehow not as nice and pure anymore? I'm the same person I was before sex... Even when I was a virgin, I would be disgusted by a person who thought that this was something of value or made me more special than women who had slept arround...
My number of sex partners are very low, and would have been lower if life didn't go wrong.. but I'm still the same woman with the same values.. whether I have no men, one man, or I screw the whole world.. My morality is not wrapped up in my vagina, it is contained within my heart and my head.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (26 July 2010):
Buddhist way is the best.. jealousy is a mind poison, it's the worst possessive side of us trying to destory our lives..
Either use Buddhist meditation techniques, to realise the mind has many thoughts, not all of them pleasant, but most of them fleeting.. We are not our thoughts, and there is strength from being able to control our actions and not be led down the wrong path by a confused and unhappy mind.
Cognative Behavioural Therapy does the same thing and is available from most good health practioners.. Again it challenges your thoughts and makes you assess if your emotions are bringing you happiness in life or acting as a big barrier which holds you back.
Ultimately, THE PAST CANNOT BE CHANGED... No matter how angry or how sad or how bitter you are.. your partner cannot change the past and make you happy again...
To worry about a past you can do nothing about to me seems highly irrational, obessional and slightly insane.... (in my humble opinion)
That's like me forever being upset with life because my ancestors were once slaves and I'm probably only here because someone once raped one of my grandparents....
THE PAST IS DEAD.
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reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (26 July 2010):
Tisha-1 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionQ and Miamine, you both understand what it is I'm trying to create here, thank you both for your help and input and insight! It is much appreciated.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (26 July 2010):
Brilliant MissManners, some of them angry anon's got a fantastic post closed with their own worries and woes..
It's nice for them to have a space to express their anger in a healthy way, rather than destroying another person's chance at happiness..
Yes some people have issues with past jealousies, but it's not fair to hijack a post of a man or woman who are so in love they are willing to try to get over it or deal with it as best as they can.
Advice should be what is good for the person, not what is good for me. Misery loves company, but isn't happiness more easier in the long term?
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reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (26 July 2010):
Tisha-1 is verified as being by the original poster of the question"a person deserves the chance to choose, say one partner was a molester ten years ago wouldnt you want to know the whole deal so that what ever consequences that come from it, it was your choice?"
I agree that a person deserves to know whether the partner has been sexually active, no doubt. But just saying that isn't going to help the person who didn't get the chance to choose, what is the PRACTICAL advice for that person now? What if they have been married for 20 years and have children together? Do you advocate that the upset party leave the marriage?
If one partner was a molester, what are the chances he or she would lie about it? Pretty high, I think. I'm not sure where that topic came from, this is really about retrograde jealousy. Are you speaking from some personal experience, anon?
There's an aunt on here who advocates doing background checks on a potential love interest, just so you don't have any nasty surprises about their marital, financial or criminal history. I think that's probably a good idea in this day and age of internet dating. People are far more likely to start dating someone who has no connections, such as mutual friends or colleagues, schools or other organizations.
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reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (26 July 2010):
Tisha-1 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionSome good posts on this thread about the topic: http://www.dearcupid.org/question/how-can-i-forget-about-my-wifes-past.html
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reader, anonymous, writes (26 July 2010): a person deserves the chance to choose, say one partner was a molester ten years ago wouldnt you want to know the whole deal so that what ever consequences that come from it, it was your choice?
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female
reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (25 July 2010):
Tisha-1 is verified as being by the original poster of the question"what if the partner lies before marriage about sexual past?" Good question! What if that happens? What should the question be back to the one who lied?
"Why is it we always come up excuse that they must have had a good reason for lien to there partner." I don't know that people ALWAYS come up with excuses for lying. I think many of our posters ask WHY did their partner lie? And then the aunts give some answers that might answer that question. I think I try to see things from both sides and try to offer a reason why she or he might have lied, so that the one who is trying to understand this can look at it from their partner's viewpoint.
"And what about a virgin doesnt the v deserve to marry another v?" I think that someone who feels strongly that their virginity is some sort of gift to their partner is entitled to know that they are 'giving it' to another virgin. I think also that the virgin should be very clear about this being a deal-killer before marriage. Give the non-virgin an easy 'out' to leave the relationship.
"And why do many aunts and uncles say that a v does nt love there partner who is not a v just because he doesnt want to marry the non v when he or she finds out about the sexual past." I don't think that the aunts are saying the virgin doesn't love that person. You'd have to provide specific examples here for me to discuss this comment.
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reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (25 July 2010):
Tisha-1 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionJust to add to the original article, when I first read posts about people troubled by their partners' sexual pasts, I had the same initial reaction as many people. That is "get over it, that was long ago and doesn't have any bearing on your present."
What I didn't really understand was that for the person suffering this condition, is that it is real, it isn't voluntary, it isn't something that will just go away. We shouldn't blame the sufferer for his or her feelings.
If the posters of these types of questions could just "get over it," as they are so often told, I'm quite certain they would. They can't, they are in pain, and that is why they post here.
Also to clarify, this isn't about cheating. This is about someone dealing with the person's prior sexual history BEFORE they got involved with our RJ sufferer.
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reader, shoccs +, writes (25 July 2010):
what if the partner lies before marriage about sexual past? Why is it we always come up excuse that they must have had a good reason for lien to there partner. And what about a virgin doesnt the v deserve to marry another v? And why do many aunts and uncles say that a v does nt love there partner who is not a v just because he doesnt want to marry the non v when he or she finds out about the sexual past. Virginity is just one of the many attributes that an individual wants in a person.
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