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person12345
writes:The age old question on this site seems to be "is pornography use cheating?" My response to that first depends on how you define cheating. A relationship is basically a sexual contract, an agreement between two (sometimes more) people. These people agree to certain sexual terms, such as not having sex with other people. If the terms are not followed, the relationship is ended. These terms have to be agreed on for them to work. So anything the couple agrees to do or not do, is added in. Doing any of these things, is considered cheating. So if a couple decides at the beginning of the relationship to agree that porn will stay out of the relationship, without any further explanation and without the rest of this article, using porn is cheating. Nothing else about it really matters, but if the couple agreed not to use porn in the relationship, then using it is cheating.However, there's usually more to it than that. Many couples don't discuss porn use ahead of time, and many people won't agree to not using porn on the grounds that to them it isn't cheating since it's not sex with another person. The problem with porn is, you actually are having sex with another person. It's just not in a physical sense. True, you won't give your partner an STD. A lot of people say it makes masturbation faster and easier and more fun, while simultaneously claiming it's simply fantasy, while a fantasy clearly doesn't have even close to the same powerful effects. It's clear porn use has a very different and more powerful effect than simply fantasizing about someone. The reason for that, the reason people like porn so much, is your brain absolutely cannot differentiate between what is happening on screen and what is happening in real life. When people watch porn, mirror neurons are activated. These don't make you mimic what you see, they make you think what you are seeing is happening in real life. I've heard numerous times from users that porn use feels MORE intense than sex. If your brain thinks you are having sex, regardless of what you consciously tell yourself, it is nearly exactly the same as having sex with someone else.The way porn use affects relationships, especially when it's hidden, is frequently nearly identical to when a partner finds out about an affair. Over 70% of men admit to lying about their porn use, frequently to spare their partner's feelings (despite the fact that lying always makes it worse). The trust disappears, self-esteem plummets, resentment builds, suspicion builds. The way a partner who hides porn acts is nearly identical to someone having an affair. He (I use he since it is grammatically correct, not to imply blame) uses it, feels a bit of guilt, goes out of his way to hide it at all costs, lies to his partner's face, and in the end gets off on the forbidden aspect of it. Relationships completely dissolve over this new lack of trust. Over 50% of divorces cite porn use as a major factor, a higher percentage than end due to physical cheating. I've heard several times from women who have both been cheated on and discovered a partner's porn habit, and they all said it either hurt the same or more.People do not use porn, they have a relationship with it. Many men would prefer to divorce or break up than even consider cutting back or stopping their porn use and become completely enraged at anyone who says anything negative about it. The way some people describe their porn is much the way they would describe someone they were in an affair with. It's another reason porn has such a powerful hold over a person, masturbating to porn generates the same feelings as sexually interacting with a live human being. People can and do actually fall in love with porn. Not to mention an orgasm is an INCREDIBLE chemical cocktail. It effects the same part of your brain as crack cocaine and acts as a reinforcer of behavior. In studies researchers were able to, in a short period of time, teach people to be aroused by a picture of a shoe by having them masturbate while looking at it. This is partially because of the reinforcement and also because orgasm produces bonding chemicals. So whatever it is you're looking at and thinking intently about leading up to and during orgasm, you genuinely develop feelings for.The definition of addiction is continuing to use a substance despite knowing the harmful effects it causes. If you are using a substance and know it's having horrible effects on both yourself and your loved ones and still can't stop, then that is an addiction. Porn rewires your brain, it truly is equivalent to taking a hit of cocaine. It affects the same part of your brain as other addictive drugs. Brain scans of regular porn users are far more similar to cocaine addicts than someone who has never had an addiction. Porn does have the capability to swallow a person whole. It is addictive and there's no way to know if you will become addicted until you are. Porn has the power to destroy marriages and relationships, jobs and families. It destroys a person's ability to experience intimacy in well over a third of users. It's estimated that between 8-10% of the entire population is addicted to porn, and that up to 25% of all porn users are. And those are conservative estimates based on very narrow criteria (viewing more than 10+ hours per week) that avoid diagnosing based on how it's impacting their lives. Often times listening to a user in a relationship that's being destroyed is exactly like listening to any other addict:Sure it's bad for other people, but I'm totally fine.I could stop whenever I wanted to, but I don't want to.It's only for stress relief.How can you sit there judging me? You don't understand what's it's like.So is asking a partner to stop using porn controlling? Yes, but not even an iota more so than asking a partner not to have sex with other people, to not kiss other people, to not flirt with other people, or any other activity with another woman that could even be considered mildly sexual in nature. So why is it suddenly worse to ask a partner not to do something extremely sexual with hundreds or thousands of other women in secret? Ask yourself this. Is porn really that important you're willing to make someone you love suffer? Is viewing porn worth more than your relationship? If so, you need to reevaluate your priorities. The negatives of viewing porn far outweigh the short term positive effect of a quick orgasm. Generally speaking to the women who were bothered and learned to accept it, it wasn't so much that they became OK with it as that they learned to tune it out, grit their teeth deal with it, or simply became numb to the pain. Women share coping mechanisms with each other, but it's not enough for many women who diet, self-harm, get surgery, or at worst attempt suicide. Still others I spoke to accept it because they have talked themselves into believing sexist double standards. Whereas the men I spoke to who gave up porn (not addicts) all had positive effects ranging from simply their partner was happy, up to more and better sex. If someone really loved his partner, he wouldn't force her to seek coping mechanisms for the pain he caused for a small habit he does when he's bored.No one is asking anyone to stop masturbating. But if you have a partner struggling with your porn use, it shouldn't be that big of a deal to simply ask your partner for pictures/videos, or masturbate with your own fantasies. People rarely come to ever fully accept it, most simply learn to tolerate it. It's a far more difficult task to deal with a life of coping with a partner who goes out of his way to do something hurtful than to just switch to a slightly less easy way of masturbating. The two aren't even comparable. If stopping masturbating to porn is such an enormous struggle that you'd rather end the relationship or devastate your partner than stop, then that right there is the definition of having a porn problem.
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male
reader, Yos  +, writes (5 March 2013):
 Tisha that presentation is by Gary Wilson, the creator of the website yourbrainonporn.com, which is by far the best single resource on the effect of porn that I've found. Life-changing for plenty of men who read it since they then try and quit altogether afterwards!
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reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (5 March 2013):
 I found a great lecture about what porn does to young men who become addicts. The brain changes are disturbing and lead to a whole list of problems. A fascinating talk.
http://www.upworthy.com/this-is-what-happens-when-kids-grow-up-on-unlimited-access-to-pornography?
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reader, Alex242  +, writes (7 May 2012):
It is not cheating, per se, however it causes the contrast effect.
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reader, Foot-In-My-Mouth  +, writes (1 May 2012):
 Brilliant article. And equally educated updates.
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reader, janniepeg  +, writes (17 September 2011):
 I read something on the newspaper. It is not quite prostitution. It says that in Toronto, 50% of the exotic dancers are students. They are not necessarily selling sex, they are selling sexuality. Some are on the way to become doctors and lawyers. So for them it is a choice. They are merely saving money to pay back for college. What they might not know is that in the future their prestigious husbands would mind that they had worked as a stripper. Most don't admit having sex with strangers who pay well but that suspicion would always be there. The young girls should be advised that this short cut way of earning money is not worth it. Women have been taught to be tough and independent, but at the end true love, a harmonious family life is what we want. We see a lot of men here with retrograde jealousy. It's very hard to find a man who is open minded to accept a past stripper into his family. Some also have to worry about coworkers or students finding out their past.
As long as there is porn, people would keep watching it. I think the easier way is to prevent girls from entering this business, the ones who would regret it later, like relationship failures, or terminating a job because she can't face the pressure, and gossips at work anymore. Of course there will be girls who say they are of age, they can do whatever they want with their bodies. So far there hasn't been any programs that discourage girls from entering the porn industry, like warning labels on cigarette boxes. Yeah, even when we tell people you are going to die of lung cancer they still smoke. Some people just have to learn it the hard way.
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reader, person12345 +, writes (16 September 2011):
person12345 is verified as being by the original poster of the question Sorry I haven't checked in on this post in awhile.I'm so glad this article helped. I'm not a counselor, I work with a feminist group where I try to help out women who are in relationships with users. You weren't rambling at all, it made perfect sense. You're exactly right that women are expected to accept this, no questions asked regardless of their own feelings. That's why I post articles like this and try to be loud about the fact that women don't have to accept it if they don't want to. If enough women stopped accepting it as inevitable, maybe it would stop being inevitable.Miamine:Where oh where do I begin. First off I'm not sure what exactly this safe profession that doesn't kill women is, it certainly isn't prostitution. Most women I've talked to who were in prostitution experienced some kind of violence, rape, battery, attempted murder, assault, etc... usually on a regular basis. And 1 in 500 women is murdered. I'm not sure how you can claim prostitution is not something that kills and hurts women. The main reason we rarely hear from women who were negatively affected by prostitution is because talking about it is so triggering that they simply won't. They have to take care of themselves first. The women who speak about this from the perspective of having other choices and getting into it "for fun" are speaking from a place of privilege and are in the extreme minority.Not to mention the fact that since most of these women have few or no other options, offering them money to have sex is coercion. Having sex for any reason other than because you want to, like say for money, is coercion. Sex by coercion is rape in most countries.I'm unsure what your point is about cars. Cars are dangerous, we educate people that cars are dangerous, and their use is restricted and heavily controlled. So yes, they are dangerous. I'm not sure where I said they weren't. My best friend died in a car crash recently, so I'm fairly aware of the extremely negative consequences. Which is why it's good they're so heavily regulated. So is your point that since cars can have negative consequences and are heavily regulated and porn can have negative consequences and isn't regulated, maybe it should be?Vibrators don't use the exploitation of other human beings as a main selling point. That exploitation also probably doesn't require the use of their internal organs to produce the item. Nor does it coerce them to have sex. Then you get into their use. There is no study that shows that using vibrators has any effect whatsoever on anyone else. Here are ALL things that porn has been shown to do that vibrators have not. Cause women to view men as sex objects. Cause women to feel less sympathy for rape victims. Cause women to show increased aggression towards men. Cause women to lose interest in sex (the opposite in fact). Cause women to feel more likely that they would rape someone if they knew they could get away with it. The only equivalent to porn is porn. Vibrators, sex, masturbation, whatever else sexual you can throw out there are simply not the same things. Sex toys for women already have an equivalent, it's called sex toys for men. Which do exist. Though last I checked, women's sex toys generally go out of their way to look fake (glittery, neon colors, etc...) while you can buy men's sex toys that show a distended rectum, a ripped rectum or vagina, and include inserts for "mouths" that simulate vomiting. All of which have to do with porn. Interesting. I have been a heavy consumer of porn, I have also used vibrators. They are not even in the same category.And in that study the methodology wasn't flawed. Believe me, I've read the criticisms. All of which are so emotionally based and angry they are incoherent. The criticisms of the study were that she did such horrible things as actually talk to the prostitutes and began the study already having worked with anti-trafficking groups and was therefore perceived to be biased. Even though every prostitute I've ever met only thinks she was wrong in that she underestimated the abuse and misery. Interesting though how every single study that comes out that shows harm is considered biased, while the few studies that come out that show neutrality are considered excellent scholarly work. I suppose that is because feminist researchers, 100% of whom are called biased, are simply too emotional to do science. Interesting too how when studies that talk about rape being extremely underreported come out they are passed around as fact among some blogs, but then once those victims are prostitutes, suddenly the researchers are biased and lying and incompetent and the studies are all flawed and overestimating sexual abuse.Also you are severely mistaken if you think that because women do only 3 months in porn it is because she had a good time and made some money and moved on. The 3 months is not because she wants to leave. It's because either it takes such a severe physical toll she cannot continue (think rectal prolapse, gonorrhea in the eye, throat infections of e.coli), it takes such a mental toll she can't continue, she catches an STD and no one will hire her, or she's too "used up" and no one wants to see the same woman twice unless she's a superstar. Of which there are maybe three, one of whom admits she does porn to cope with past severe sexual trauma, one of whom got into it to get off the streets where she was a prostitute and repeatedly raped and addicted to several hard drugs (hint she's been on Oprah and her name starts with a J) and the other who is desperately trying to break into Hollywood but is unable because she can't land any roles other than porn star or prostitute. Not to mention that it's not uncommon for women in porn to suffer from extreme paranoia that someone will see her videos, so she shuts herself off from the world. It's also not uncommon for these women who you believe simply walk away to go from porn to prostitution (the ones who can't get jobs in porn anymore).Also this argument that if prostitution was legal it would be safer is the biggest lie out there about prostitution. Wherever prostitution is made legal it becomes a hub for trafficking and organized crime skyrockets. Not to mention violence against prostituted women does not change even a little bit. The ONLY place where prostitution has been successfully dealt with was in Sweden where selling sex was decriminalized, buying sex was criminalized and prostituted women were given exit programs. 60% of them took the government up on that within the first year alone. Now also answer me this, if working in porn or prostitution was like any other job, why would they need exit programs? No other jobs require assistance to escape pimp violence or anything of the sort. No other jobs require assistance just to quit.Also the trafficking for other kinds of labor, while horrific, are not things I can usually choose not to consume. I cannot choose not to eat food from other countries or I will starve. I cannot live in housing without materials from other countries, I cannot afford to buy clothing that's only made from local materials and made locally. Porn and prostitution are just "for fun." Sex is not a necessity. It is easy to avoid or stop using. I'm tired of the male libido being used as a justification for the existence of something that greatly harms women and children.
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reader, Stayc63088 +, writes (8 September 2011):
 So to put out there, I haven't read any of the comments so I am unsure of other's feelings on this article. I came across your profile page and clicked on this article. I know a lot of your answers involve porn and you seem to be very educated about it. I was curious if you are a psychiatrist or counselor? Anyhow, I would like to thank you. Often I feel as though I should accept porn because that's how it is, everyone does it, and if it bothers you then you are a prude. I used to not have a problem with it so much. But in your article where you mention hiding porn use is as bad as cheating, I have experienced this first hand. And I can honestly say it is truly awful. You lose self esteem, trust, respect... everything. I have come to hate porn since then and find it unwatchable. My fiance says he doesn't watch it because he doesn't need to (sex is often enough). But I do find myself worrying that he could be hiding it as it happened in my past. But then I realize I can't very well say "I'd rather you not watch it" because then I would certainly never be told. Instead I try to be supportive and seem accepting of porn, because I'd rather be told than lied to again.
I cannot describe the feelings it envokes from me. I remember towards the beginning of our relationship we tried downloading and watching a video. I could barely get past a scene before needing to turn it off.
I'm not sure that I consider it cheating in and of itself. But the act of hiding it behind your partner's back certainly is. So I assume I associate porn with deceit. And since most men are not open to their partners about watching porn frequently or at all, then essentially it is lying.
The fact that it is porn does upset me though in reasons beyond betrayal and ways I can't explain. I am sorry to go on and on. I am just airing out my thoughts on the subject for the first time. I have always assumed it was insecurity as well, that if he could have one of those girls, he certainly would. And to hear him ever saw "ew" to a girl on tv who is naked and unattractive but say nothing to an attractive girl who is naked clearly states what he's thinking. But won't ever say... I hate to say I am so insecure when I used to feel confident. I never worried about porn use or lying before, now I am paranoid he has secret stashes in the computer that I'd never know about. And I don't feel attractive as I used to before the ex and lying with porn started, despite what my current fiance tells me and despite the ex is completely out of my life.
I am just glad to be able to think and speak these thoughts freely. I honestly feel like nowadays we have to accept porn and to voice anything otherwise makes you a nag or a prude that no guy would want to deal with. Or he would just lie completely to you and claim to be all that you want. Then get caught and say it's your fault, how can he be expected to not watch porn when all guys do...? Anyhow, even if I rambled too much to make sense, I feel a little better. Thanks
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reader, Miamine +, writes (15 August 2011):
 Here's my problem..... porn and prostitution are legal in many countries.... people who buy porn are not criminals, people who act in porn are not sent to jail.War, rape, murder, torture, abuse, slavery, cancer, pain and suffering.... so a man looking at porn is equivalent to a medical disease which kills (cancer), porn is the equivalent of slavery, murder or torture, all things that are illegal.Don't see the connection myself, except that for you, porn and prostitution legal things (in certain places)are the same as things that kill or things that are illegal all over the world.But I've seen this type of argument before.... porn bad because men like it, it's as bad as torture, murder, cancer and slavery..... vibrator good because women like it and that's a good enough reason to suit me. Some prostitutes, porn stars have a bad experience, so ALL porn is bad... some drivers kill, I may have a car accident one day and kill someone, but because I like driving, cars are good and porn is bad.Sorry about the vibrator thing... you brought this up before. Women have a right to a vibrator because that's the only way some of them can come. But what if I'm a women who only has orgasms through porn.. well then I must be addicted and I must be sick. Vibrators good, porn bad.. women who use vibrators are normal, women who use porn are bad. I got a problem with this type of argument, because vibrators don't work for me and I do see them as very much a substitute for a penis.....Anyway, funny how we go from... "Is Pornography Cheating"... to.... "Pornography is as bad war, rape, murder, torture, abuse, slavery, cancer, pain and suffering and must fought against"You throw around statistics, but I've actually seen that piece of research about prostitution, and the critical analysis against it, as well as better research with different analysis. The methodology is flawed, the authors themselves were forced to admit of interviewer bias, and whats more the women were more likely to have suffered assault at the hands of friends and family, than they did at work.I can send you the relevant weblinks if you so desire. The research you quote from is known to be flawed.Wow... so most women only do 3 months in porn... and you see that as a problem? Only suggests that it's not as life threatening as war, murder, torture and all the other bad things you can name. A women gets to choose a job, gets paid for it, and then can freely walk away when she chooses, nope... doesn't sound like murder or slavery.Yes some people are sold into sex slavery, but people are also sold into slavery in the fishing industry, fashion industry and agriculture.... that's to do with the trafficking of people, not particularly about sex, removing porn or prostitution (if you can do it) will not stop people being sold. You need to fight against trafficing of people if you wish that to happen. Banning things will not make people safer. Porn existed long before the internet world. Paid sex exists wherever there is man, even if it's supposedly illegal. At least if pornography and paid sex is out in the open, governments can help to regulate and protect the people that work in the industry as well as their customers. Religions tried to ban things, fight against what humans like to do, kill people for their sexual activities, heck I can still remember when people where told masturbation was a sin and god would cause you to get sick and die...... in the end, the church and it's loud screaming about what type of sex men and women should like, couldn't convince people that either "pornography or masturbation......." (fill in blank with you personal sexual hangup)is cheating, sinfull, or anyone's business but your own. (sex with another man or woman whilst in relationship with me is the only hangup I need, but am willing to negotiate and talk)
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reader, person12345 +, writes (7 August 2011):
person12345 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionFirst off, porn and prostitution are not hardwired. I will first address the whole oldest profession in the world argument. Yes prostitution has been around for a long time. So has war, rape, murder, torture, abuse, slavery, cancer, pain and suffering. Does the fact that they've been around a long time mean that we should stop fighting them? Trafficking still exists on a HUGE scale. The majority of female and child slaves in the world are sex slaves, forced to stay either through physical means, financial means, or blackmail. A large number of prostituted women are trafficked, some of whom are in porn. So to me the fact that it's been around a long time does not matter in the slightest. In a survey of 785 prostituted women in nine different countries 89% wanted out. 75% of prostituted women have been homeless at some point. Somewhere between 70-90% of prostituted women were sexually abused before entering prostitution. 68% of prostituted women suffer from PTSD (compared to 48% of combat veterans). 1 in 500 prostituted women are murdered. Around 90% of prostituted women report being violently attacked and/or raped. Yes there are some women who love being prostitutes or find it a great way to make money. The majority of prostituted women hate it. But this is a post about porn, not prostitution.As for the hardwiring, there are pretty much no voluntary behaviors in the world that are known to be "hardwired." In order for that to be true I'd say that they would have to be the same across all cultures and when it comes to sexuality there are no activities other than the fact that people do have sex that are the same. There are many cultures where porn was shown to the men and it received neutral or negative reactions. We don't even have continuity of porn viewing across our own culture. If porn was hardwired, all or nearly all men would watch it. Seeing as around a quarter of men don't like it/choose not to watch it, it either disproves the theory that it's hardwired or proves that this hardwiring thing is incredibly easy to undo just through willpower.Second, porn is not a career choice just like any other. Keep in mind that everything I'm about to say of course has exceptions. The vast majority of women in porn cannot make any sort of career out of porn. The average length of time a woman is in porn is three months. I do not consider that to be a career. This is for two reasons. One is because the job is so physically and mentally draining that most people simply can't continue to do what's required of them. Injuries are fairly frequent ranging from pulled muscles to rips and tears, infections, and all the way up to things like eye gonorrhea and rectal prolapse. There are no other (legal) jobs on the planet that require constant and frequent exposure to dangerous bodily fluids. Doctors wear masks and gloves and use sterile equipment when there's even a small possibility of there being a fluid. In porn it is not unusual to be exposed to the ejaculate of multiple men at one time, in mucus membranes. Sex toys are sometimes not even cleaned beyond wipe downs with tissues between actors and actresses. ATM (ass to mouth) has become somewhat popular where a penis from the woman's anus or someone else's is put directly in her mouth without being washed or cleaned. There have been outbreaks of things like e.coli infections in actresses' throats from this, something rarely or never before seen. I mentioned eye gonorrhea because the prevalence of cumming in women's faces has basically created a new place to catch STDs. And it's not as though people in porn are given healthcare to deal with all of this since most of them either work freelance or with an agent working with many different companies.The second reason is, the industry is always looking for the next new face. Once a woman has been in porn for awhile it can be very difficult to get more jobs. Many women describe having to do things they never wanted to do or thought they'd do just to get a role towards the ends of their careers. You also hear occasionally hear stories of women signing up for a particular role, then being basically forced through the threat of suing her to do things she didn't sign up for, simply because she signed a contract. Porn is the only place in the world where it's apparently legal to sign away your free will.Most women who do porn do not strike it rich. You hear stories from Jenna Jameson (who writes about how awful it is in her book and the sexual abuse and homelessness that drove her to be in it in the first place) and Sasha Grey, but many women who do porn burn out or can't get more jobs and basically wind up poor. Some women wind up where they started, rarely some women make a lucrative career out of it, but it's not unheard of for porn actresses to run out of work and become prostitutes. I've spoken to some of these women and they basically describe an inability to get another job due to extreme fear that someone at work will have seen her films. And even if she manages to make it, at the end of a career, it's not like a job in porn offers a retirement plan.So to say it is anti-porn people who are putting women out of the job is insane. It is the physical and mental demands of porn that put women out of the job long long long before any activists even open their mouths.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (1 August 2011):
"They are right, people shouldn't have to sell themselves in this day and age!"
Tell that to the many pornstars who are not stupid and not victims but refuse to work long hours for minimum wage. Most people don't do porn because they like it (although some do), most people like the money and are not happy that anti-porn people want to make them unemployed.
No matter what you say, you can't remove prostitution and porn, it seems to be hardwired according to scientific research.
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reader, HappyPlace +, writes (8 June 2011):
 Well, I think one myth has been dispelled! Men appear to not only watch the porn action, but they DO single out the porn actresses to wank over afterwards, so as Jannipeg said, this is really cheating (of the mind anyway)! What woman in her right mind wants her other half wanking over another woman?? I just can't see how that's healthy for a relationship! Oh, and read the last link that Person12345 put forward. It's interesting that the girl thinks that people watching porn are as bad as the people going to strip bars to essentially "buy" another human being! I am so glad that my mind is now made up through all the arguments with regard to porn on this site. It's a scurge on our society and in 2011, it's a little outdated! I loved the fact that women were demonstrating in London when they opened a new Playboy bar!! They are right, people shouldn't have to sell themselves in this day and age!
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reader, person12345 +, writes (22 May 2011):
person12345 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThis is a post about relationships and porn, not so much feminism and porn. I am more than happy to discuss pornography and feminism normally, however, I'd like to keep to the topic. I will post links instead.(this is relevant to why it is problematic to call women dirty sluts)http://www.antipornmen.org/2011/04/01/the-language-of-pornography/http://www.oneangrygirl.net/pornmyths.htmlhttp://antipornfeminists.wordpress.com/whats-wrong-with-pornography/http://www.antipornmen.org/2010/09/17/what-is-objectification/http://www.antipornmen.org/2010/11/06/what-is-pornography/http://rageagainstthemanchine.com/2008/04/12/why-porn-isnt-cool-3-real-people-have-feelings/http://www.theartofloveandintimacy.com/2008/07/maladaptive-nature-of-pornography.html(a comment on niche porn markets versus popular)http://rageagainstthemanchine.com/2010/12/20/get-on-the-fucking-ball-janitors/(I'm aware that other sex workers have different experiences, but her comments about power and control are really interesting)http://www.oneangrygirl.net/these_women.htm
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reader, janniepeg +, writes (22 May 2011):
"I'm not touching or forming attachments to any other woman in any way - it's basically the same as imagining a different woman, only faster."
That's imagining having sex with another woman, which is a problem for a lot of begrudged wives here. Can't it be possible that you imagine only your wife? Think of the last time you did it, fantasize about what you want to to with her the next time?
Women derive pleasure from porn also. When I watch porn I am not really thinking about being screwed by the guy. I am imagining how much pleasure the girl is having. It's the whole action that turns me on. When you watch a couple having sex in public. You won't call that cheating would you? It's not "cheating" until you go home and jerk off thinking about the woman only.
I just wonder how many men single out the porn actress when they jerk off, how many of them think about their wives when they jerk off. How many men tell their wives that they are still the best. I think that makes a difference on whether watching porn would be acceptable.
When we enter a marriage contract, no one is going to tell you: if we don't have sex this amount a week, if we don't have affectionate sex and passionate sex, whenever we want it, this marriage is not going to work. So it's up to you to know what you want in life and in your partner. A lot of the times people get married just because he is a good man, she is a good woman because they seem to be hard to find, but they totally forgot about the sexual attraction, the magic that draws people together. It's a pity that people get married to someone they are not too crazy about. Maybe they marry for financial security, maybe they don't want to feel lonely. If that's the case it is not fair to use pornography to replace that passion in the marriage. If having 3 children is zapping passion out of your marriage. Don't blame it on children, marriage, or porn. Go work it out with a sex therapist, or go to a romantic vacation together. Sometimes it's far better to remain single until you find that whole package in a person. My motto in my answers here will be: you can have it all in a relationship. Never settle. And also, we are not really separate from other entities. We are all one. To feel that we are all separate and isolated is to have a miserable life.
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reader, Odds +, writes (22 May 2011):
 Maybe Cerberus is right about some guys enjoying expressing power over women through porn. Or even most guys. I don't know, that's not why I do it.
I'm more with Janniepeg on this one, dominance (up to and including cumming on the face) or inequality do not necessarily equate to violence, discrimination, or any other form of nastiness. It's just part of the dynamic. And I think the idea of "verbal violence" has merit in some situations, but is too easily applied to vanilla rough sex, among other situations.
In my experience (admittedly limited to long-term relationships; if someone would chime in on flings and one-night stands, maybe they could shed more light), women seem to prefer being the submissive party in the bedroom most of the time (take note of the last seven words of that sentence, anon).
I know there's a whole explanation about how the submissive party is really the dominant party because they are always consenting to being submissive, and therefore in control - but I really think it just boils down women loving the idea of being so irresistible the guy can't help but be an animal around them. For that matter, sex and masturbation are very tightly linked with our base biological urges (male and female), and I think most guys enjoy the prospect of just cutting loose and being uncivilized (within the confines of consent, of course), just as I think most women enjoy the idea of guilt-free screwing. And that attitude carries through to porn.
Lovemaking, equal partnership, dedicating time solely to the woman's needs - these all have their place. But does it always have to be that way? Gentle and tender lovemaking have their place - but then, so does the kind of animalistic screwing that leaves both parties walking funny for a few hours. Just because we're pulling each others' hair and clawing each others' backs while saying naughty words doesn't mean we don't care about each other. It doesn't mean I hate women. Nor does it mean I won't enthusiastically go down on her the next night, just because I like making her happy. It doesn't mean I won't enjoy just sitting an talking with her the next day. I don't even think it counts as violence.
Porn's the same way. Just because I can enjoy something where the man is calling the woman a dirty sl*t and pulling her hair, doesn't mean I'm a woman hater.
Now, all of the above is only relevant given the way the conversation has shifted from "is porn cheating?" to "is porn acceptable at all?" As for it being cheating, I still say no, I'm not touching or forming attachments to any other woman in any way - it's basically the same as imagining a different woman, only faster. I have a powerful sex drive, sometimes I need to take matters into my own hands. I wouldn't begrudge any woman the decision to think differently about porn, or anything else, so long as she was willing to act on the belief. Vote with her feet, so to speak. I would do the same if I was opposed to vibrators, or any porn she felt like watching. If the numbers are impractical, and dating a guy who doesn't watch porn isn't a realistic option, maybe that's a sign that porn isn't a big deal.
If I had an addictive personality, or difficulty seperating fantasy from reality, it would be a different story. But so far as I can tell, neither is an issue for me, so I'm just going to refuse any attempt to control or change my behavior.
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reader, janniepeg +, writes (22 May 2011):
I think it's problematic for a man to take out anger on women. I would have noticed the anger problem in a guy long before he becomes my husband. I don't know where you watch your porn. My impression from reading your post is that you actually watch a lot of porn and studied them. The porn that I watch is very vanilla that it no longer excites me that I had to stop playing them. The majority of men don't get turned on by violence and degrading of women. Cumming on a woman's face does not count as degradation.
A little role playing like hair grabbing, light spanking is fine, in my opinion.
I believe a man's anger problem comes from dysfunctional families, not from viewing porn or an upsetting day of work. They use violent porn because that's what they identify with. They also grew up seeing dad hitting mom. If a kid goes to school and shoot, you can't put the blame totally on violent TV or games.
I am sorry you had a bad experience with porn. I only watch what turns me on, and ignore those which are stupid, too violent, and does nothing for me. Same with men. It's not my business to fix a man's personality problems. The majority of men that I know are very gentle. They don't get so influenced by bad media.
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reader, person12345 +, writes (20 May 2011):
person12345 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionActually I am excluding "niche" porn such as BDSM, as did the studies that found violence in the scenes. Those were just mainstream popular porn scenes. Violence included things such as gagging, slapping, hair pulling, etc... The point was largely to show that violence against women shown in pornography is becoming extremely mainstream and common and it's overwhelmingly from men against women. The other point was that if porn was about sex, there would be some kind of indication that the people were even happy, but in most porn people don't smile, laugh, compliment each other, etc...I don't see why you don't think it's problematic for men who are feeling underpowered to come home and fantasize about taking their anger out on women. I think it's incredibly dangerous to toy with the idea that a good way to relieve frustration is to fantasize about hurting women. Or to feel that it's healthy to fantasize about regaining power in all aspects of life by overpowering and humiliating women. It's also a bit frightening to associate gaining back masculinity or power through violence against women.People can be shaped by their arousal extremely easily. Researchers were able to teach men and women to be aroused by a picture of a work boot by having them masturbate and orgasm while they looked at the image of the boot. So how is it shaping men to fantasize about relieving their frustrations by hurting, humiliating, and overpowering women? The extensive testing done on aggression and violent pornography showed that it causes aggression so clearly and thoroughly that future studies had trouble getting approved because it was unethical to administer a harmful substance.I have to admit I'm bothered by your connection between porn and sex. Porn is not sex and does portray sex. I read an interview with a woman who had said something along the lines of, "if what I see in porn is sex, than I don't want to have any." And I agree. If sex was really that cold, brutal, and entirely reliant on a hierarchy of power and control, I don't think many people would want to do it. Do you really want to define human sexuality by porn? You also make the classic straw man argument, basically intended to bring the conversation to a stop, that women against pornography are anti-sex or prude or simply not in touch with their sexuality. But like I said, porn is not sex. I am anti-porn precisely because I am pro-sex. Porn sex teaches that it's OK to use people, that it's OK to dominate, humiliate, or hurt another person to get what you want, and that sex is about control and power, that sex is divorced from affection or even fun. Porn sex is also very unoriginal or unique. In porn, everyone's sexuality is the same.
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reader, anonymous, writes (20 May 2011): Person12345 have you ever read a study or come across anything that looked into any kind of correlation between between ever changing nature of gender roles and the prevalence of violence in porn?
We all know porn has been around long time, I mean as soon as we humans were able to take photos and since we first learned how to make moving pictures people have been making porn. I'd be interested to see if there is any quantifiable relation between the rise in feminism and women's rights to the occurrence of violent behaviour in porn. Just curious to be honest because personally I do think there has to be a link. I mean in all media there is an increasing gap being created between the genders, a gap is being blurred and changed almost beyond our control as women find new ways to assert their rights and are told they're dutybound to do so. It is of course just a reflection on the changing gender roles in our society. But there has to be a change in men too and it's not one all men embrace wholly nor know how to handle, as it is a change that is being forced upon us to a certain degree. I mean no one in power wants to give that up easily.
I mean we can't ignore the fact that TV-shows, pop music and movies aimed at a female audience seek to promote female dominance to a certain degree, gossip girl, sex and the city, desperate housewives, they all portray men in a less than positive light in relation to the female characters and the female characters in those shows have what are traditionally, masculine traits, Samantha in sex and the city for example. Even in shows aimed at a male audience these days, traits and morals of the male characters are given a decidedly more sensitive and traditionally feminine flavour.
While many would argue this is a good/bad thing, that the traditional male and female roles are being changed, I'm not going to argue either way to be honest because there are good and bad points from what I can see.
I just can't help but think that violence in porn and degradation of women in porn would become more popular to some degree as result of a backlash by some men who have become disenfranchised by losing that domination, by no longer having a dominant role in society or relationships.
It's not just men though that are feeling this backlash many women are also finding it quite hard to find their place in society, I mean they are constantly being told that they're supposed to look, feel and do things a certain way (I know that's nothing new), I mean women that want to be housewives (yes they do exist), women who want to remain virgins until they're married are constantly being told that there is something wrong with them, that they need to go out and be promiscuous or to at least go out and experience a lot of dating to assert their sexual rights. I know that's not true of all women, but the girls I know that want to remain virgins before marriage and dream of being housewives and getting married to serve their man, feel under great pressure from their friends and society that their attitude is wrong, that their dreams are just antiquated forms of subservience. We have had a lot of questions here from girls with that exact problem.
I have one friend who is very conflicted by that, she wants to be a virgin when she gets married, she wants to work only up until she gets married then she wants to become a housewife and raise some kids, that is her dream. She's constantly berated by other women for that opinion, she feels constantly under pressure to "assert her new found sexual freedom" even though she doesn't want to. To her this newly defined female gender role isn't sexual freedom at all, it's being forced upon her. She feels this "freedom" is actually just restricting her to have to behave a certain way because the way she wants to live her life is now the "wrong way", this is made worse by the fact that most men nowadays don't want to date a girl who won't put out until she's married.
Anyway back my original point.
I think these new gender roles are having the effect of an ever increasing disenfranchisement in men and young men (aswell as a lot of women), that is perhaps being reflected in the demand for porn that completely subjugates and degrades women, because it is demand that influences what porn producers make. They see what's popular and they create porn to cater for that. Obviously there is agency and the things they do produce will also have an influence on the guys who watch it as you have explained many times.
But I also think that this does explain why a lot of men want to try the things they see in porn with their girlfriends, not just because they saw it in porn but because it seems porn is the only thing left in which it is acceptable for a man to completely dominate a woman, whether we like it or not it is still many men's instinct to be dominant and when we live in a society that tells us we can no longer have any dominance in relationships then I can see how many men would become frustrated and try and exert that in negative ways. I'm not saying it's right, just saying it has to be a factor. A lot of men just don't know how to exert dominance in an "equal" relationship and even some who do, don't think it's enough.
Personally I've learned how to exert a degree of dominance in certain aspects of my relationship and I'm satisfied with that. I do have a decidedly male role in my relationship. But it's a positive role, I am the 'man of the house' but for us it was just natural, it developed that way. We both have equal say in everything but in certain aspects I've just become the one with the control, and it's a role both of us are comfortable with (trust me if it wasn't that way she'd say, she's no shrinking violet). I've never gotten off on any kind of violence or degradation in porn I don't like it at all and as such I can say there is enough out there without that or I would have nothing to watch. The only times I have liked that kind of thing are when we've tried it and even then it was only because she liked it so much, although some of those things neither of us liked.
Anyway I'm just curious if you've actually come across anything that has studied that or viewed it in that way, a link between gender roles being changed removed and violence in porn specifically.
I honestly don't think you'll find many that do because it's a very unpopular opinion to see anything wrong and point out any flaws in the change in gender roles. I mean if you criticize this change in anyway as a man, you're chastised for being sexist, much the same as if you criticize Israeli policy towards the Palestinians you're labelled as anti-Semitic. Even women that choose to live in a more "traditional" role are put down for being slaves, they're almost labelled traitors to other women for perpetuating male dominance by choosing that kind of life traditionally feminine role (my friend has been told that many times).
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reader, janniepeg +, writes (20 May 2011):
I sympathize with women who feel hurt by men who ignore them and watch porn for hours. I have no intentions of taking sides. I just want to put things in a different perspective. If women can understand what's in a man's mind they may be able to forgive and not turn the anger inward. Most of the time porn is not about you or your imperfection.
Person12345 when you talk about violent things in porn you might be referring to BDSM. Half of the BDSM films are men being dominated by women. It goes both ways. Some men enjoy being spanked by a dominatrix. It is a deep psychological or some weirdo thing like desires of being punished by a mother or father figure whom we missed as we grow up. I tried BDSM myself because some guy was rough with me and I got turned on by it. That doesn't mean I have a psychological issue or I was abused as a child. I was open to the idea but not completely. I don't enjoy being hit. I am just turned on by a dominating man.
Most men are underdogs at the workplace. They feel so little when they work amongst mean bosses. When they go home and watch porn what they are doing is to feel like an alpha male again by fantasicizing that they have power over women. What's unhealthy is when they can't differentiate what's real and what's fake. It's okay to feel playful while you spank your partner's butt and bent her over. It's not when the activity becomes seriously uncomfortable.
When men are told they can't watch porn, it's like coming home to another boss.
Is Pornography cheating? It is for some people. For others it's a safe venue to explore sexuality and to learn something new about sex.
There is a part of us that wants to nurture, protect, "be an angel." Another part of us that's self gratifying, lustful, animal. Both parts have to be satisfied because we are both spirit and animal. Why would a man go jeopardize a 10 year marriage and his family by screwing a hot secretary for 10 minutes at work? I believe that animal instinct, or passion is a big motivator of one's actions. Not an excuse but rather an explanation of why some people do stupid things, and when passion overrides intellect and rationality.
I am not justifying a man's selfish interests if what his obsessive porn watching is upsetting to his woman. However, I believe that some men would rather be single, and to hope for the 30% of women who are more open minded about her sexuality, than to lose his freedom, and be told that his nature is wrong or sinful. Part of the reason why porn is so addictive is because the animal side of us is so suppressed when we grew up. Part of it is stress.
I won't say I was addicted to porn but I watched a lot. I experienced a lot of sex in real life so nothing is new to me. I don't watch it now because of this reason and also porn gives virus to my computer.
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reader, anonymous, writes (20 May 2011): You couldn't be any more right Person12345, the porn industry IS very misogynistic, and it does severely effect a lot more relationships than some people actually realise. Speaking from experience, it took me a long long time to recover from the damage my ex caused me from it. I have been to councelling on and off, a couple different people, and both professionals told me that I was most definatly not alone and that more than half of the women they saw had been effected the same way I had. It's awful, because it can cause so much hurt to the relationship and yourself. I was madly in love with my ex, but I always wondered why he didn't seem to get much pleasure out of sex. When I realised he'd been lying to me about porn and images and so on, throughout our entire relationship, I cannot even explain how gut wrenched I felt. It was like someone had ripped my heart out. It will always be like cheating in my eyes.. Like you say, it's one thing to NOTICE an attractive woman, but to go out of your way and spendyour time searching for things is just not okay by everyones standards. It's a complete dealbreaker for me. It took away all self esteem I had, and It's took years for me to build it back up, I'm almost there, but I think a part of me will be forever bitter and damaged. It's just not worth it, it's so sad that it happens to so many women, but women should never be blamed as bieng insecure, I used to be so confident, the porn made me insecure, that's to blame not the woman! Thank you for continuing on with the brilliant posts, like said in another post, I'm sure you will be helping a lot of women feel better in your disscussions, such good stuff :)
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reader, smiliek  +, writes (19 May 2011):
 I'm not saying that actively checking someone out isn't disrespectful, no matter what the context. My hubby doesn't do what you described, in fact i dont know many guys who do. One of my older male workmates who is divorced and very very bitter perhaps, but that's the sum total of all the people I personally know who do that.My comment wasn't that men who look down a woman's blouse are those who dont view porn, but that it COULD be those who dont, unless you know them personally you really couldnt be sure. The 70s that you say do view it (which is what i thought it was) arent going to be the ONLY ones who check someone out.Yes a lot of the porn out there is degrading to women, but just because its there doesnt mean that everyone who watches it looks at that kind. I've seen my hubby's history enough to know what he watches and its not that. All he ever looks at are blow jobs, not gagging nor deepthroat but what i would do with him. And i like giving him them and he loves getting them so i guess that reflects with what he watches. He hates anal, and sure doesnt look at it. He also only watches 2-3 min videos which don't show the 'finish' so no cumming over the womans face. When we have watched stuff together (which is about the extent of my porn viewing and happens maybe once every 3-4months) he skims past any nasty titles, anything that has fetish, anal etc as the category and heads straight to something that is a bj and maybe sex. What you call vanilla sex perhaps. Now i'm aware that there's plenty of yuck stuff that other people look at but im just saying in MY case its not that. Hence why i dont find it as degrading or a problem. If he did look up other stuff then i prob wouldnt accept it as easily. But he's not interested in it. I also know he may one day get bored with the 'normal' stuff but considering he sees stuff maybe 3-4 times a month i doubt he'll get bored very quickly. He didnt start watching porn until after he first had sex, and that didnt happen until he was 18 so perhaps its because he didnt have an overly young mind when he saw it that it hasnt affected his as greatly as it seems to affect others. I dont know thats just a theory.Oh and i dont know if it matters but ive asked him to cum on my face before, without ever seeing it, and i felt that it made me more powerful. He doesnt really ever want to do that but i dont think its a power trip to him, not does he want me to gag or anything else you described. For us oral sex is as loving as other sexual things we do. Again this is my personal experience and i know its not the same for others. But just because that porn is out there and becoming more mainstream doesnt mean absolutely everyone is watching it."Also, as I've said before, simply calling people out for being insecure doesn't really point out anything. Most of the population is insecure about things, a large majority of the population is fairly insecure about the way they look. So stating people have problems with things because they're insecure probably applies to the vast majority of the population. She seems insecure about her boyfriend finding other people attractive. You're insecure about your partner cheating on you. They're actually very similar. I'm insecure about things as well. It's just kind of a straw man to say that insecurity dissolves a person's argument, because it doesn't. I could just as easily say that you only changed your mind about your husband watching porn out of insecurity that he'd cheat on you. But I don't think either argument is even a little bit valid, and personal attacks on each other really aren't necessary. I'm not pointing out that argument because I think it's true, I'm just showing that it can be flipped any which way and just serves to make people angry rather than further any kind of argument"Exactly. Apart from one question (where did i say im insecure about hubby cheating on me?) this is why i said she sounded insecure in her relationship. Not to undermine an arguement but to show that it doesnt help anyone when you make a narrow-minded judgement view on someone. She did it by calling me a woman hater because im more accepting of porn then she. Now if i were a question asker getting called names or being judged i'd be pretty upset and hurt. That has happened to me (and possibly HappyPlace too) So i turned tables and did exactly that. I wasnt saying she was right or wrong, i simple made a judgement call. I guess i should of thought of a better way to point it out but i'm not as good at wording things as you. Mt point is still that its a difference of opinion and trying to undermine each others views will solve nothing and help noone. Ive seen full on arguements between yourself and Cerebus on other porn threads and i dont think they would really help the OP at all. This post is good as everyone can put their views without it affecting someone who actually needs help.As for my insecurites, im not insecure that my hubby would cheat. Have been before sometimes but not for quite some time. My insecurites stem from how i perceive myself and im aware of them, as is my hubby. He helps me feel better about myself, not worse. The thought that a partner may cheat probably goes through many peoples heads but it doesnt mean it would happen. My hubby once feared that i would cheat simple because he was having an insecure moment. I can't help but giggle at that and the thought that he would as it simply doesnt seem possible. Doesnt mean i'll always think that and always have, but that though hasnt crossed my mind in ages. And the only reason id think it is fear that it could happen. It could happen in any and every relationship but it doesnt. Not because he does or doesnt watch porn. He's gone months without watching it and it hasnt affected or changed anything with us. Thats why im ok with it
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reader, person12345 +, writes (19 May 2011):
person12345 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThere's a pretty big difference between noticing someone attractive and actively going out and seeking them out for the sole purpose of arousal. Everyone notices other attractive people. But I think most people would be offended if they were out with their partner and he or she was doing double takes and staring other people up and down. So why is a behavior that's more extreme suddenly not disrespectful because it's on a computer?You asked for the percentages of things, around 70-75% of men watch porn at least several times a year and around 30% of women (both single and in relationships). Slightly under half of women masturbate while in relationships, and the number of men in relationships who masturbate is somewhere around 70%, and there was no distinction made between solo activities and partner masturbation. Masturbation actually isn't just completely a given in a relationship.You made a comment that men who take a look at other women do so because of a lack of porn rather than because of it, but actually people who view porn are more likely to be constantly checking out other people, imagining them naked, thinking about what it's like to have sex with them etc… This is called sexual preoccupancy and the more porn someone watches the more like they are to feel this way, especially if they begin a porn habit during adolescence.I don't think individuals who watch porn are woman haters, but there's no denying that the majority of porn out there is extremely misogynistic. A recent study found that over 80% of porn scenes contained some form of physical violence and around half contain verbal violence, overwhelmingly this violence was from men at women. There were almost no depictions of consent or of any sort of affection. Affection was present in fewer than 5-10% of scenes. And by affection the researchers meant very small things, such as smiling, laughing, compliments, or anything similar. Most of it was misogynistic, cold, and brutal.So you have to wonder why it is that the demand for porn is overwhelmingly for violence against women. It's frightening to watch as porn becomes more and more extreme it becomes more and more violent, mostly against women. And to watch as things, which are blatantly degrading to women, such as cumming on someone's face become mainstream. Or to watch as it becomes more common for some men to demand that women perform anal sex (regardless of whether it hurts) by threatening to dump them or cheat on them if they won't do it, or for some men to think it's disgusting for a woman to elect not to remove her pubic hair. It's not simply curiosity, many acknowledge that it's porn that causes them to "need" these things, and many describe the desire to degrade, dominate, or humiliate their partner as motivation for wanting certain acts. A men's magazine recently interviewed several men who said that knowing the woman was in pain or uncomfortable added to their pleasure, as though it was just a normal sexual preference. Many men describe it as sexy to know a woman is gagging on his penis. Basically the only two reasons someone would find that sexy is either he enjoys the idea of a woman suffering to give him pleasure, or he wants to bolster his ego by thinking his penis is just that big. The second of these ideas, that it's sexy or even OK for a woman to suffer to bolster a man's ego, is becoming popular among even mainstream media. For instance Trojan recently ran an ad for Magnum condoms showing a woman with bandaids over her mouth, indicating that his penis was so big it had ripped her mouth open. Basically that the woman should physically injure herself simply to provide pleasure. This just all points to a growing idea that women are not human, they simply exist to provide pleasure. To add, the cumshot to the face is degrading, there is no way around it. The porn industry knows this, here is a quote from porn actor Bill Margold:"I'd like to really show what I believe the men want to see: violence against women. I firmly believe that we serve a purpose by showing that. The most violent we can get is the cum shot in the face. Men get off behind that because they get even with the women they can't have."You just have to look at the titles on most porn to know that it is basically all about degrading women. Even depictions of "vanilla" sex (which are becoming very difficult to find) include degrading names for women play up the aspect of "man does TO woman" rather than with, usually something rough, violent, non-consentual, painful, or humiliating. Women in porn are basically exclusively bitches, sluts, skanks, etc… Porn is not about showing sex, it is mainly about showing things men can do to women (all of this, by the way, is talking about straight porn). It is about showing women as things to penetrate, as three holes and two hands. The only time women in porn seem to be portrayed as sweet or with affection is in the niche of "underage" or "barely legal" virginal sort of porn. Descriptions have a really big impact on perception, so obviously the names are there for a reason. There have been many studies where they do things such as describe a car collision to a group, then they show them a video and ask them to estimate the speed of the collision. The group given things like collision, incident, etc… described a slower speed. The group given action words, such as crash, smash, etc… described a faster speed. So being told before they watch a movie that the woman is being treated roughly and is a bitch or a slut or a whore will impact how a person perceives the scene even if what the scene shows isn't blatantly degrading.Also, as I've said before, simply calling people out for being insecure doesn't really point out anything. Most of the population is insecure about things, a large majority of the population is fairly insecure about the way they look. So stating people have problems with things because they're insecure probably applies to the vast majority of the population. She seems insecure about her boyfriend finding other people attractive. You're insecure about your partner cheating on you. They're actually very similar. I'm insecure about things as well. It's just kind of a straw man to say that insecurity dissolves a person's argument, because it doesn't. I could just as easily say that you only changed your mind about your husband watching porn out of insecurity that he'd cheat on you. But I don't think either argument is even a little bit valid, and personal attacks on each other really aren't necessary. I'm not pointing out that argument because I think it's true, I'm just showing that it can be flipped any which way and just serves to make people angry rather than further any kind of argument.
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reader, smiliek +, writes (19 May 2011):
Hey HappyPlace,
i meant no offence with my comment. Simply that the way you put that if your bf checked out another woman he should be single. Surely you don't think he'd wanna leave you if he saw someone else attractive? He sounds more like he's into you so he may feel hurt if you think or said that. I'm unsure how thats a 'male argument' its simply the impression i got.
Kudos to you for knowing who you are and i'm glad you've found a guy who is willing to accept you and even not look at things that hurt you. My hubby would stop looking at porn if it stressed me but his looking at a short video a few times a month doesnt really bother me. If i found it affected us it would be a different story. But i'd rather him do that then fantasise about someone we know. I've seen the fallout from that and its also not pretty!
I'm also insecure sometimes but its in myself not our relationship. Esp now as i'm pregnant and feel rather fat. But my hubby still wants me
just as much and still calls me beautiful etc. I have no
insecurity directed towards him or us, simply myself. 'am i too big for how far in i am etc' that kinda thing.
I respect your opinion and i'm not saying you're wrong. Simply that what you do works for you and what i do works for me. We're both happy in our relationship (well i am and you do sound it) and thats what is important. But neither of us is 'right' and what works for us may not work for others. I just hope you wont be one of the aunts who push their opinion down a question askers throat and tell them how they 'should' feel simply because its how you feel. Not saying you will but you did Make a snap judgement call on me simply because i accept some porn use. As they say don't judge a book by its cover. Neither of us are right or wrong we're simply different.
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reader, HappyPlace +, writes (19 May 2011):
Hi Again SmiliekWe'll agree to disagree if you don't mind. And I have concerns that you have used the male argument of "you seem slightly insecure in your relationship". What does that really have to do with anything? Please elaborate on what you meant by this? The funny thing is, yes, I am insecure, always have been. So this phenomenon is not new in this relationship. I am also anxious, stressy, jealous, possessive and many other things (there are some good traits too). I also over analyse people and situations much to my chagrin. I am who I am however. And because of who I am, I am simply too anxious to deal with porn in my relationship and luckily my gorgeous man understands (it did take a while). It's through his dedication and love that I was able to reveal these not very nice traits. So, I dislike porn for many reasons and yes, I will reiterate, I am insecure. Let's call in the insecurity police!!
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reader, smiliek +, writes (18 May 2011):
well HappyPlace, i'm not offended. Slightly amused perhaps. While i agree women in porn have made a bad decision, i also think the same about the MEN in porn. Let us not forget them. And i'm amused that because i've sometimes watched porn you label me as a woman hater or think i'm as bad as the men who seem to be the worst in the world because they check out someone attractive. You seem slightly insecure in your relationship (you'd leave your bf if he looked at another woman?) But then that's just my opinion on how you wrote something.If you've read some of Person's other posts you may find that its not as large a percentage watching porn as you think. And since guys are going to masturbate regardless i'd wager that the ones taking a look aren't always doing so because of porn, but rather because of a lack of it. Well a lack of something different to look at or think about. I'm ok with my hubby sometimes watching porn. I'm also ok if he notices someone attractive. He doesn't do it in the sleazy way you describe but everyone notices someone attractive if they are in front of you. I know he finds me better then anyone and he calls me beautiful and makes me feel special everyday. I'm secure in us and i know our relationship will work regardless of porn use or anything else. What we have works well for us but that doesnt mean it would for everyone. Same as your method it also won't be right for everyone. To each their own
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reader, HappyPlace +, writes (18 May 2011):
Hi Smiliek
I have written down my personal opinion so please do not let it offend you, it is mine afterall.
If statistics show that most men watch porn, then you can bet your bottom dollar the guy looking down your blouse or checking your arse out has looked at it. I am glad you don't mind your partner masturbating to images of other women, but it's not for me and I couldn't handle that, whether it was every day, once a week or once a year. It was a dealbreaker in my relationship and Person12345 has given me the confidence, through her arguments, to state that this is not something I want for my relationship. And I did watch porn myself but never felt easy with it. Did it make me a women hater watching it. No, however to continue to watch something when you have reviewed all the arguments, for your quick fix orgasm, then I would have to label you as bad as the men that watch it. Again, that is my humble opinion so don't take offence. Any women who gets her goodies out for the lads has made a really poor choice in my opinion and by women doing this, it means we have to suffer the men who watch it and have their views of women somewhat skewed!! I worked in a very male dominated environment for many years and was shocked at how the "married" or "taken" men behaved when their other halfs were not around. So let's not kid ourselves. My man admitted to me that when he worked with men, in traffic management, they ALL checked out women's arses, tits or whatever and it was an unhealthy habit he picked up. He doesn't do it now because I would jab his eye out or tell him that if he wants to behave like a single man, then go do so but not whilst he is in a relationship with me. I've seen the fall-out of porn use and it's not good. Bravo to those who don't mind it in their relationship, those relationships should work because they are both in agreement.
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reader, smiliek +, writes (17 May 2011):
@ Jmtmj: haha no worries. Although better different opinions out here then on someones question who actually needs help. @ Happy Place: Erm i have watched porn and sometimes still do. Does that make me a woman hater? My hubby is one of the most respectful men i know, holds doors open for me, pulls out my seat at a restaurant, gives everyone (male or female) the same respect and courtesy and doesnt look down womens tops or at their asses. Even when i'm not there! One of his workmates mentioned to me that he was 'weird' because he didnt check out the ass of some chick that was apprently really hot. He sometimes watches porn and is not what i'd call awoman hatereither. If you're going to say that anyone who watches porn hates or fears women then you are lumping about 70% or so of the entire population into a very small box (Person would likely have the proper statistic?) Fair enough that you dont like it and you and your bf dont watch it. That works for you and your relationship which is great. But honestly, if you found out your friends or family members watched porn would you tell them that they must hate women? Thats the kinda blinkered view that can cause issues to people who just want advice for their own personal situation. You are making an extreme judgement view on hundreds of thousands of people that you have never and will never meet. Its fine to not like porn and not accept it, but even Person with all her research hasn't pointed fingers at everyone who watches it and made a judgement on them. How do you know the men looking down a top are ones that watch porn? How do you know that they aren't the ones saving the image to fantasise about later? Its just not a good idea to lump so many people into a small category when its the minority that are like that
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reader, Jmtmj +, writes (17 May 2011):
 Thank you for bringing some level-headed sanity to this thread smiliek... (no seriously)... I was beginning to think that there were only the self-righteous whacko's left.
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reader, smiliek +, writes (17 May 2011):
I do agree with you there Person... I dont think porn watching itself makes you a 'bad person' but if you are putting its use above your partners feelings then that is a problem. In a relationship there's two people to consider, and while i dont agree with control i think compromise is something everyone could try. Worked for me. I've never really been either pro or anti porn, i can see its bad points (and you've pointed out more) but i'm not against it entirely. If i'd listened to those telling me i 'must' hate it and that my bf was a terrible person i would of left the love of my life. But if i'd listened to others i would of unhappily put up with porn always thinking it would cause a problem. So instead i chose to talk things out with him and tell him all my fears and insecurities relating to porn and other women in general (basically everything) After looking at me and saying 'are there seriously people who'd pick porn over sex?' i realised he was nothing like the ones i'd read about (on here) and we talked everything over to reach some middle ground. Works for us and has done for about a year or so. He offered to just not watch it but i turned that down. He meant it though and had i said ok he would of not watched it again. I dont see it as a problem though. He's not lying about it and he doesnt put it above me. He rarely watches it anyway. Its sad that some people who answer these questions have such extremist views. The answer isn't always as easy as 'he should give it up or he doesnt love you' or 'get over it he's not doing anything wrong' For some people its a dealbreaker. For others the user is addicted.. Some ppl hate it so much they bundle everyone who watches it as bad and horrible people who have severe issues. Others love it, some accept it, some dont mind it if its occaisonal use. Its a topic where one almost has to put aside their personal opinion in which to give good advice to the question asker. I guess i'm almost a fence sitter about it now. I'm ok with it to a point in my relationship and hubby never does anything that makes me think its not ok. But some of the stories i've read, i would never accept if it was me. And i dont think its ok to lie about it (or anything) when in a relationship Oh and i know that post was massive i haven't read through it in ages. I sorta remembered the addiction part and what you wrote above sounds like it. You were quite helpful in that post and although i'm not against porn as such i can see how many issues it can cause. And thats obvious from the amount of questions over it too. I just think we all need to realise that our opinion isn't always right for every question asker (i think i'm guilty of it too)
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reader, person12345 +, writes (17 May 2011):
person12345 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionWow guys, I'm flattered! I'm glad I helped.
Smiliek: Hmmm I can't remember exactly what I said on that post (there was a lot to read through). I think what you're referring to is when I was discussing who is prone to addiction. Basically there are people with "addictive personalities" and that puts them at higher risk for developing a dependence on anything a person can be addicted to. So if someone has had a previous addiction, then it would be wise to stay away from addictive substances of any kind. Likewise if someone in your immediate family has an addiction. However, having an addictive personality does not guarantee a person will become addicted and lacking that trait does not keep a person safe from addiction. Simply because someone has never had a previous addiction or no one in their family has had one does not give anyone safety in terms of addiction, it just takes it down a notch from very likely to less likely.
I personally don't think a person has to be addicted for it to cause problems. I think when it's causing problems for one person, it's causing problems in the relationship. A lot of people on here have said that as long as the sex is fine, there shouldn't be a problem. But I think the biggest problem with porn use is how it affects a person's emotions, and how they feel about their partner. Since the relationship isn't all about sex, it doesn't need to be affecting their sex life to affect the relationship. If one person is knowingly hurting their partner, it's going to make his or her partner start to feel resentment and it could pull them apart.
Obviously if both people in the relationship are OK with porn use, there's no problem. I'm not writing this because I want people in happy relationships to stop using porn. If both people are OK with porn use, then there's no problem, this wasn't aimed at those couples. But it seems like there are a lot of couples where this isn't being addressed at all except as anger towards the person who has a problem with it.
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reader, HappyPlace +, writes (17 May 2011):
Yep, right on for Person12345. Because of your convincing arguments, I now have taken the stand that I do not want porn in my life. I tolerated it before because I got confusing advice on this site, from the pro porn activists.But from reading your arguments and seeing the other arguments put forward, I feel secure, confident and happy in telling my partner there is no room for it in our relationship, and fortunately for me he agrees wholeheartedly. If you scrape beneath the surface of some people giving advice, you will see they are damaged people with damaged views. Any porn viewer I've decided is actually a woman hater or they are afraid of women, I mean real women. You know, the sort of man that looks down your top or checks your arse out as you leave a room. I actually despise men like this because it's like they have no control. I equally despise the women in porn who feel the need to show their fanny or whatever to earn a buck. I mean I really despise these women. Use your brain and get a real job with real job satisfaction. Then we might not get men looking down our tops all the time. I've always worked hard for my money and I don't live anywhere grand but I certainly wouldn't resort to that - dirty money if you ask me. Everything about the porn industry is seedy and unpleasant. I remember years ago an old bf telling me he had watched a porn movie, where a man jizzed in these girls faces, but the girls were horrified/terrified or whatever and he said he could see it in their faces. Whether it was as a result of trafficking, I'm not sure but that story is really terrible and yet that guy probably still watches porn. As Person12345 said, it's about dehumanizing a gender in order to do what they do. Isn't that what the nazi's did to the jews?
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reader, anonymous, writes (17 May 2011): Person12345, you should write a book on this! You have made me so happy in all your comebacks to the people with poor arguments and defensivve attitute.. (Hmm I wonder why they have that attitude..) Just to quote some of the extremely valid well put across points you've said throughout some of your posts..
"If the only way you can argue that porn is a good influence is to try to show what a bad influence everything else is, then that's a pretty unconvincing argument. Especially given how many times you claim porn has no impact yet believe it's OK to not care about the people in porn for an orgasm. This is not a discussion about how other forms of media shape people's lives in other ways, this is a discussion about pornography and how it effects relationships. Though if you want to go there, I have to say that the ramifications of false expectations from a romance movie, that a guy feels a need to be more romantic, are far less severe than the ramifications of false expectations from porn, that lead some women to excessive dieting, surgery, and completely ignoring their own pleasure during sex to at worst men raping their partner to fulfill some fantasy, which happens more often than you'd think."
Exactly, people like to bring this up and take the topic off focus as they simply cannot truely justify the main point here. And when men say about the whole romance novel expectations and so on.. Not that that's neccessarily true or relevant, but like you said, men do have violent and sexual films that can create worse expectations.. So men, please where are you going here with this one? My ex had tons of action movies and movies depicting women ih a highly unrealistic light. And it made me laugh Person12345 when you gave an example, men randomly ripping off their womens clothes just assuming she's be horney! I never tried to turn my ex into Mr perfect romantic.. but he would do things like this to me all the time and it done my head in!
And when men say about romantic expectations, I think they think that asking them to not view porn is some sort of out of order romantic expectation?
"when someone comes on talking about how they are hurt, it's extremely harmful to tell them that their feelings are invalid or that they are overreacting. All that does is make them feel worse since they still have the feelings, but are being told they don't have a right to feel them."
Yes, it's extremely harmful, speaking from experience. Like you said you notice that Cerebus goes off the rails at porn posts, he definatly at one point strongly implied that I had no right to feel the way I felt, and that my feelings were stupid and it was all my problem.. As did Mianmine.. It's funny how people can verbally gang up on you like that yet accusse you of having the problems...
In past questions I've posted, people have provoked me and really gotton under my skin. At one point, two people kept talking to eachother on my post, dissgussing how I had problems amongst each other, not even directing their comments to me, but at eachother! They were trying to agrivate me, just as they do so many times to people who post topics on pornography, simply because they want you to fail in what you are trying to get across.
This has not been the case here, YOU have cracked it! You have made so many important points and had substantial back up and you have came back time after time and like said in the bellow post, successfully communicated across such an important topic that is day after day talked about on this site. The amount of women who ask questions about this and get shot down.. You have been so calm and applicative throughout and I think you've managed to get somewhere in a way that many others have failed to.
Person12345 THANK YOU AND YOU'RE BRILLIANT!!
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reader, anonymous, writes (16 May 2011): Person12345, you are such a strong person to carry this disscussion through despite all the people trying to accuse you of things and knocking you down due to their denial and dissmissence of the bad effects porn can also have. You couldn't word anything better and through your posts, I truely believe you are speaking for millions of women, that have tried to raise the points you have, and gave up having been shot down so much to the point that they feel like they are mad!When I was first effected by my partners pornography use, I used to post a lot of questions on this site. In the distraught state I was in at the time, I couldn't take the amount of men that verbally abused me and somewhat verbally bullied me into believing I didn't have any rights at all to feel they way I felt. Although there were so so SO many women, who were in the exact same position as me. I remember a question I posted years ago on this site became so heated and many women were supporting me, and some men were too. But so many men were extremely clever in manipulating my words and making me out to be a controling nutjob, that I couldn't handle it, and I got so angry that I flipped, and I swore and got really angry and I wasn't being me at all. I got so worked up that my question was blocked and no more answers were allowed. You can imagine my frustration, when I was telling people how my boyfriend would leave me waiting hours, on many occasions whilst he was looking at porn instead of meeting me somewhere or picking me up.. And I had men, and a woman, actually, telling me that this was MY problem! You know why they were telling me that? Because THEY had a problem, and were making me feel bad because they probably were so obsessed with their own views to realise that they actually had a problem. And they thought it was perfectly normal and okay for my boyfriend to be hours late and leave me waiting at a doorstep whilst he was looking at porn.You know, I used to feel so sorry for myself, I felt so down, self esteem crushed to pieces after time and time again being lied to and let down and having porn put, and chose before me. I stayed off this site for ages as I couldn't stand to be told I was so wrong by so many men, after loosing all sex drive, all hope in future relationships, and all hope in ever gaining repsct from the one whose supposed to love you.. I look back now, and I laugh at how ignornat some people really are. How hypocritical some people are, and how many people try and divert the point of the conversation to try and throw you off what you were trying to get across. I no longer feel sorry for myself, I feel sorry for all the people who truely think their habbits are more valid than a humans well being. They are the people who have the problems.Every now and then I come on here and answer some questions. I cannot stress how much your posts have made me smile, I so much admire your ability to come back and back with more brilliant points, and I absolutly love how you can answer back to all the people that try and put words into your mouth and manipulate or divert what you say.. I admire you so much for this, as I could not do it when I needed to the most.. Thank you! Like yourself, some of the things here are amusing me.. it also amuses me how when perhaps proven wrong or given a taste of their own medicine, some people will mysteriously dissapear and not answer again.. or try helplessly to divert topic to justify their flaws...I am so happy to say, that I think someone is finally, SUCCESSFULLY, putting extremely valid points across and actually getting somewhere, without letting the pressure of others ignorance get the better of them, and by doing this, I'm sure you are helping many women out there. Person12345, THANK YOU!!
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reader, smiliek +, writes (16 May 2011):
I do know what Cerebus means with some ppl posting to a question about porn with their opinions getting shoved down the ops throat. (I don't mean you person)I remember posting a question under an old account simply asking why guys use porn so i could better understand it. The responses from the guys were great and made sense, but a few females tried telling me that i should leave my bf and that i 'must' hate porn or i wouldn't of asked a question. I got quite angry as i was being told how i should feel when i just wanted a males perspective. In fact i deleted my account here as i couldn't understand why someone elses view was getting forced on me. Eventually i came back but there are def some people who do make things alot worse for the poster. This topic always has a mass of opinions. There seems to be no 'middle ground' with porn. However there is also no right or wrong side either. Its not as clear cut as something like rape (always wrong) Yes it can cause issues and yes in some situations it should simply be stopped, but i do believe that it was you Person who has said someone who only uses it sometimes who isn't prone to addictions shouldn't reach the point where it affects a relationship. I'd have to go back to the 'middle ground' question to check that but it was something along those lines. Not everyone hates porn and not everyone expects their other half to not use it. I don't think lying and hiding it are the right answers either. But i think perhaps if a guy is asked and he was honest about using it, a girl would be able to choose very early on to accept it or leave then and there before feelings got too intense. One of the main issues i see with porn affecting relationships is if the guy lied about it for years and then the girl found out. Thats when the insecurity starts.
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reader, person12345 +, writes (16 May 2011):
person12345 is verified as being by the original poster of the question@Cerberus: I would never tell someone who seems OK with it that it's harmful and she should be bothered when she isn't. People who come on here asking for reassurance are far more often than not asking for reassurance that they're not stupid or overreacting for feeling hurt. I've never told a woman (or man) who was mostly OK with it but confused that they should feel hurt, I have no idea where you're getting the idea that I do. But when someone comes on talking about how they are hurt, it's extremely harmful to tell them that their feelings are invalid or that they are overreacting. All that does is make them feel worse since they still have the feelings, but are being told they don't have a right to feel them.
You tell me that I shouldn't express that it can cause harm because it doesn't in ALL cases. Should we not talk about homosexuality because it doesn't apply to 90% of all people? A larger percentage of the population is addicted to pornography than are alcoholics and a much larger chunk is addicted to pornography than hard drugs. Should we ignore alcoholism or drug addiction because it applies to less than 10% of the population? And even once we leave the addiction bit alone and just move on to how "normal" use harms relationships, the numbers grow a HUGE amount. Over half of all divorces cite that pornography was a major factor in the divorce. You're right, that's not 100%, but more than half is enormous. That means pornography causes big enough problems in more than 25% of all marriages that it ends the marriage. We know that over half the female population would not want pornography in their relationships. You think this is just my opinion? Even 1/3 of the male population think it's harmful (yet use it anyways). Should we ignore that ENTIRE half (slightly more than half actually) of women who don't want it in their marriages simply because you think they're wrong? And what about the large chunk of women who will accept it in their relationships but still find it hurtful? Are they wrong too simply because you say so? All these statistics mean that well over half of women feel hurt by a partner's porn use, and it's not because "some silly feminist" told them to feel that way. They just do. So I'm not going to tell a woman hurt by porn use that she's wrong for feeling that way since somewhere between 25-30% of women don't mind it or lie to her that it doesn't hurt most people.
Due to the fact that it has the potential to thoroughly destroy a relationship, has the potential to ruin a user's life, and at the very least the potential to immensely hurt a partner, I just quite frankly don't see the point in viciously attacking people who have a problem with it (and I don't mean me, I mean people who ask questions about this) because it gives some instant gratification.
You think I'm doing this out of some sort of weird personal spite, when it isn't. I've never had a relationship harmed by porn. I used to like porn. A lot. But I saw friends' relationships dissolve, I talked with complete strangers who have been so thoroughly devastated that they can't talk about anything else. There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of questions on the internet from women feeling hurt, yet this is just me speaking from my own personal opinion? I'm the one in the minority? I don't think so.
I find it amusing you think that by reassuring women that their feelings are OK to have is MORE harmful than you calling them stupid, saying they're overreacting, saying that what they feel is wrong because her partner likes it and she just needs to deal with it. People VERY rarely post on here about pornography out of curiosity. They usually post because it's bothering them. I also find it amusing you think I'm the one causing harm when you tell men who post here about upsetting their girlfriends that they should lie and hide their porn better, as though lying and hiding somehow fixes things.
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reader, Odds +, writes (16 May 2011):
@ Anon (same one as before) - If I'm not being clear, I apologize. If the last class you were in was 30 years ago, there's certainly at least a generational gap. Maybe a cultural one, if you aren't American. I'll explain.
1) The "social construct" theory of gender is the idea that all or most behaviors, attitudes, and preferences that can be easily generalized to men or women are, in fact, because they were raised to act and feel that way, rather than because each sex naturally tends towards certain behaviors and emotions.
Note the use of "tend" and "most" rather than "all" in the next few paragraphs.
For instance, this theory would say the only reason you don't see more men in childcare or more women in engineering is because they tend to be raised uner certain expectations. Or, this theory would say men are more likely to be porn users because we're expected to be by the culture, and not because most men are more visually-oriented than most women.
That's the short version, anyway. Person12345 could give a better explanation. My issue is that, given the proven differences in male and female hormones and physical makeup, it's ridiculous to believe that somehow our brains didn't evolve so that each sex would tend to think in ways that benefit its own hormones, body, and reproductive capabilities. Certainly, there will always be exceptions, and it would be wrong to build a society that expects all people to act a certain way when we know that only most tend to be that way, but rejecting the biological differences is just as wrong.
2) "Stay classy" doesn't refer to school, it refers to "class" as in (from Dictionary.com) "informal excellence or elegance, esp in dress, design, or behaviour: that girl's got class." This may be a generational colloquialism. I felt your implication that a woman's lowered sex drive was a response to the man's poor technique was without class. Another example would be claiming that I'm trying to score brownie points. If either statement wasn't meant that way, I'm sorry I misinterpreted it.
In any event, I think any good feminist should not claim that a woman's sex drive is any responsibility but her own. Or any realist, either. Same as how a man's porn use cannot be blamed on his girlfriend's body or technique. Porn use and technique are just two of the many things couples need to sort out privately, or suffer the natural consequences of failing to do so (most likely heartbreak).
I'd still like to hear what you think the difference is between your original statement and the modified one in my last post, when you have the time.
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reader, person12345 +, writes (16 May 2011):
person12345 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionI do believe vibrators and porn are different though in the way the need exists or is created. Some women need them in the sense that even when they try really hard, nothing they do can make them orgasm until they get themselves a vibrator, which I believe is different from needing pornography. However, it's true that some women who can orgasm other ways desensitize themselves to other kinds of touch and become (rather than begin) reliant on the vibrator, and that is a problem. Needing porn to masturbate is more like the second example in that the person can (or could) orgasm without physically, but mentally becomes reliant to the point of being unable to orgasm without. So the need is created, rather than just existing without input for both. Both cases are problematic, but also different from simply being unable to from the start. When I meant some women can't I was referring to that type of need rather than a created need. One thing as well is that once a woman stops the vibrator, the problem goes away very quickly and the problem ends. But when someone stops using pornography, the images are there pretty much forever. So even once they've stopped, they haven't really stopped. It's more difficult to deal with that need. In that sense alone pornography is more of a problem than vibrators.
As for dildos, I've never heard of a woman being desensitized to a normal penis from a dildo. I have, however, heard of women experiencing this from watching too much pornography, having their expectations raised. Only 25% of women can orgasm from penetration, and most of that is from good external stimulation rather than penis size. From talking to men it seems like it's more of a blow to the self-esteem than from dependence, but I think that's just as bad. Ironically, I think a huge amount of penis insecurity comes from porn, given that the average for a man is 5-6 inches while the average in porn is 8.5. Just like how now women are becoming more insecure about their genitals and getting surgery to fix them, almost entirely from porn. Also the average size of a dildo or insertable sex toy is 5-7 inches, most of the huge ones are basically made for being ridiculous, like for bachelorette parties.
I don't mean to sound like I'm downplaying insecurity or self-esteem things. Making a partner feel insecure is a horrible thing to do. To knowingly cause a partner to lose self-esteem is just as bad as physically being unable to participate in sex. I personally think that's a huge huge issue. A lot of women only worry about pornography because of a blow to their self-esteem rather than because of a physical problem their partner is having. I think making a partner feel like they have to compete sexually with something they will always lose to is cruel (I say lose in the sense that the other thing is always ready, and never fails to satisfy). I know it isn't a partner's job to fix someone's self-esteem problems, but it IS a partner's job to not make it worse. I don't understand why in a lot of these arguments people end the discussion with, "oh she or he is just insecure." As though that excuses some kind of behavior. Most people would feel insecure if they felt they had to compete with porn or a very large sex toy.
Also I think you're misunderstanding what I was saying was cognitive dissonance. I was referring to the extreme sense of anger rising from ideas not being able to exist simultaneously, rather than just the ideas not working together.
And a lot of women do refuse to date men who use pornography, but by the time they find out about it they are often long invested in the relationship. Slightly over 70% of male users lie about their porn use, and many who don't lie about it lie about the extent of their use. So it's extremely difficult to find someone who doesn't use it. And it's not as simple as just telling a woman to dump any guy who uses pornography. Some women don't find out until years into their relationship. Just by sheer statistics, pretty much no one would wind up with someone if they were staying in these relationships that long and then dumping their partner. It would also be between 55-60% of women fighting over 25% of men. And that assumes that they somehow know who those 25% are and can know they aren't simply good at hiding it. This isn't as simple as just not dating men who use pornography, there a) aren't enough of them to go around and b) it's nearly impossible to know who they are until well into the relationship. I feel it's worth mentioning at this point that even if she loved him before she found out, that doesn't change that it hurt with lies and everything. Would that change whether someone had had an affair?
Gender, masculinity and femininity are social constructs. The ideas of what fit with each vary widely between societies and throughout time. If masculinity or femininity were innate, we wouldn't see different cultures with extremely different behaviors for men and women. Gender is quite different from sex.
Also I find it a little strange how many times I've been called out for deviating from the narrow topic of "is pornography cheating," yet no one has said a thing about the fact that almost all pro-pornography arguments have centered around topics having nothing to do with pornography or even sexual media. It is a little odd isn't in order to justify porn use one has resort to criticizing other things?
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reader, anonymous, writes (16 May 2011): What I don't get is why anyone would try so hard to convince other people that it's a problem. What's the point? Why try and convince people who have no problem with it that they should have a problem with it? Why make an issue for someone who doesn't see it as an issue to begin with?
I mean we get questions here from women asking if they should be worried about their husband/boyfriend comparing them to porn stars. Women that openly state that they don't actually mind him using porn just that they wanted to know if he was comparing her to the women in it, does it mean he's not attracted to her anymore etc. The answer to that question is a simple 'no', the best response to her is a simple 'no, he's not comparing you to them, ask him.' because she just wants reassurance. Yet she'll get a load of answers calling her boyfriend a scumbag, "if he loved you he wouldn't watch it", and "yes you should have a major problem with it". I've seen women like that get advice that "yes, he is no longer attracted to you, don't listen to what he says, he's lying and watching porn is cheating so he's doing that too. You have to demand he stop using it, you have to be a woman and not let him treat you this way"
I mean it's quite strange. All the girl asked for is for some reassurance, something to ease her mind, yet she'll get a tonne of anti-porn bitter negative responses, from women that don't seem to to care what effect it has on her life, they just want to make her feel downtrodden and worthless to satisfy their own egos and need to rant about how bad porn is and how it ruins everything all the time just because it does for them.
I just don't get why anyone would try to make other people hate something if the effect of them hating it is only going to lessen the quality of their life, or create an issue that either wasn't there or wasn't as bad before they asked.
You don't like porn that's fine, you hate porn that's okay too because you're entitled to your opinion. But I think it's ignorant and selfish to try and convince others to hate it just because you do.
Does porn create issues? Yes, it can. Does it create issues 100% of the time? No it doesn't. Trying to convince people that it does without giving any thought to their specific situation is wholly ignorant.
The only reason I see for people doing that is like I said before, control and domination. An unhealthy and obsessive hatred of porn to the point where they will fight porn usage just for the sake of it regardless of whether it is right for the OP's situation, using scientific evidence to back up one sided claims in an effort to be "right" even if it is completely unhelpful for that persons specific situation. It seems to me the people that post things like that are just trying to feel powerful, dominant and in control, porn has had bad effects on them so they need to fight against it wherever it pops up, never mind what's best for the OP "I've been hurt by guys using porn, so I'm going to degrade every male porn user to the level of a lying cheating, potential rapists and I'm going to make that point to every woman regardless of whether she wanted to feel that way or not. I don't care how it will effect her because I think it's best she feel the way I do about it."
That to me is pointless and unhelpful.
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reader, anonymous, writes (16 May 2011): Hi, this is quite a heated debate.
I just wanted to add my own views of porn if thats okay?
I think porn is taboo in a relationship because we make it so. If you are open and honest then problems can be avoided.
I stress that I believe that BOTH partners must be comfortable with it.
If both partners are okay with porn then there's no problem. I find that many women object to porn as they feel inadequate or feel like women are being objectified.Most men recognize that women don't all have perfectly flat stomachs, mountains for breasts and love to such c***. They know it doesn't always work like that. Don't take it so personally, its not meant to offend you. And if you don't like it,simply don't watch. Or if your partner watches it and you don't like it, then talk to them. If they aren't prepared to work through it then you are constantly going to be wondering.
Men are visual therefore they enjoy porn, thats not to say that women don't. Women on the other hand find pleasure for things like books, we love to let our imagination run wild.
Therefore, if you consider porn cheating, then isn't reading a dirty book that turns you on cheating too?
Just thought I'd add my little bit. Btw, my boyfriend watched porn and I was devastated I'll be honest. But I was more upset that he didn't tell me.
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reader, anonymous, writes (16 May 2011): Spot on Person12345 with your comments on "dehumanizing people"! You are absolutely right. The men here justify their usage by dehumanizing the women in porn and what a rocky road that is. Ignorance indeed to human suffering.
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reader, anonymous, writes (16 May 2011): "Gender isn't a social construct"!! WTF - What are you going on about? You also said "Way to Stay classy" after a comment I'd made. Now, I was at school over 30 years ago and I've no idea what you are going on about. It's almost like you are talking another language or perhaps it is a cultural difference. If you are trying to score brownie points by being an "intellect" then stop it. That sort of stance is so arrogant and doesn't help anyone either.
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reader, honestbear69 +, writes (16 May 2011):
To me the only way you are cheating is if you are lying r hiding it. I come from a very open relationship but, I have have been a relationship assistant in the past. And, in my personal opinion if you are not open with the person you are in a relationship with then it is cheating. Where as, me with my husband, I am allowed to do absolutely anything I want to with whom ever I would choose as ong as I told him I was doing it. Now if I would not inform him I date a date with "Steve" then tht would e cheating.; YOu need to be able to be 100% honest with your person and that goes as far as porn as well.
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reader, Odds +, writes (15 May 2011):
Hmmph. I step away for one week on vacation, and Godwin's Law of relationships (mentioning rape) seems to have already taken effect: the last side of an argument to mention rape wins. Oh well, still a fun debate.
@ Eyewideopen - Margins are from a source citation by Person12345. It happens.
@ Anon (the one who doesn't like reverse cowgirl) - Cerberus basically made the point I was trying to about expectations being screwed up by romance novels and movies. It's not so much specific actions as it is a type of man women grow to feel they deserve. However, my solution to such things is the same as what I suggest to women who have a problem with their man's porn use: if it bothers you, talk about it. If that doesn't solve the problem, leave. Let everyone make their choices, but you don't have to stay with someone whose choices don't work for you.
Now, regarding this line: "I'd suggest too that if your other half isn't putting out or you think the sex is boring, then you are equally responsible to try and improve the situation, not then turn to porn like it's your right to do so! Also, if your other half no longer puts out, it's time to look at your own technique as you are clearly not pressing the right buttons for her!!"
First off, way to stay classy. Second, I'm going to replace a few words in your quote. When you have the time, tell me how it's any different.
"I'd suggest too that if your other half is watching porn or he thinks sex with you is boring, then you are equally responsible to try and improve the situation, not then try to take away his porn like it's your right to do so! Also, if your other half prefers porn, it's time to look at your own technique as you are clearly not pressing the right buttons for him!!"
Now, I would reject any argument claiming that if a man prefers porn, it's his girlfriend's fault - simply because it does not help anyone. It's either a cheap shot or a pointless blame game. But your statement here uses the same logic applied to the man about his woman's lower sex drive.
@ Miamine - good point on the historical/religious perspective.
@ Person12345 - Good catch on the oxytocin thing. I went back to double-check, and had posted it wrong. Partly, I left out the effects of vasopressin, and partly I should have said "significantly less" rather than "none." Having double checked, there is still significantly more of both hormones (related to pair-bonding) released during intercourse than during masturbation, and not a significant difference between masturbating with porn and without it. You do get a stronger pair-bonding effect from prolonged hand-holding, though.
Either way, good catch on that, my mistake.
I did look at some of the websites you mentioned. And at the source studies. Got linked to one study pointing out that most of these studies have a very, very (unsurprisingly) difficult time finding men who don't watch porn for those studies. Which would seem to indicate that many people can live healthy, normal sex lives despite watching porn.
Now, you think Cerberus is experiencing cognitive dissonance. Yet, compare your sentiment that there is something wrong with a man who can only get off by watching porn to the statement, "...many women can't orgasm without a vibrator." So it's terribly wrong for a man to require electronic stimulation, but completely natural and normal for a woman to require it. "...no one develops the same kind of addiction to vibrators and it doesn't create anywhere near the same problems." A few sentences before that, you said many women *can't* orgasm without vibrators, so how does that not create problems? You seem to believe that a woman using a large dildo is only a problem because it might make her man feel insecure, rather than possibly desnsitizing herself to an average penis - though this point is ambiguous enough in the way you phrased it that I'd be willing to believe I've misinterpreted your stance on dildos (mark that one under "sentences I don't use very often").
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that you believe gender is a social construct. As such, isn't the double standard between expecting one gender to be able to gain satisfaction and orgasm from intercourse, without expecting the other gender to do so, a very sexist bit of dissonance that exists entirely within your mind? Even if the biology is different, shouldn't the expectations be the same?
Of course, I don't believe any of that. Gender isn't a social construct, the use of porn and vibrators are not equivalent, and every individual's satisfaction is their own responsibility and no one else's. Just pointing it out from your own argument. While I've never personally dated a woman who could not orgasm from sex, I believe they exist. And my stance is the same I gave to the anon. If you don't like it, talk about it; if it persists, break up. Let's take your original stance, that porn counts as cheating. Except, some people call cheating "swinging" or an "open relationship." Are these practices healthy? I certainly don't think so, but I trust the "marketplace" of relationships to sort it out.
The way I see it, if enough women flat out refuse to date men who watch porn (and let's be honest, you're directing this mostly at men who watch porn, which may even be fair given that most porn users are men), most porn users will stop watching. The ones who don't stop are the real addicts, and I suspect you and your ilk wouldn't want to date them anyway. Or, count on the "fact" that women who allow their men to watch porn will eventually grow dissatisfied with their relationships and be forced to find a new one. Let the porn-less among us lead by example. The most effective idea will win out in the end.
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reader, eyeswideopen +, writes (13 May 2011):
 Speaking of porn..who blew the margins???
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reader, anonymous, writes (13 May 2011): Again, I don't need to be educated on that thanks Mianmine. Some people do assume an awful lot from a post. The circumstance of drug use is more of interest to me, taking drugs to cover up a bigger problem I see as pretty tragic, taking drugs out of curiosity or what not, I will not judge. I can call pornstars what ever I want, just as you can form your own opinions.
And there is confusion here as to which anon is which, I'm not the person that first stated pornstars were skanks. I agreed in a post though, don't let my opinions offend you, yours don't offend me. And also I am not the anon that talked of reverse cowgirl, I enjoy that position. Would you be surprised if I tell you that I don't even own a Television? Again, don't assume a person's interests from a post.
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reader, person12345 +, writes (13 May 2011):
person12345 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionWhy would it be banned. Cigarettes are horrible for you, they aren't banned. Alcohol causes a ton of problems but it's not banned either. Who said anything about banning anything? Most things that are atrociously bad for you aren't banned. Usually there's an economic reason for banning things, for instance in the US pot was banned partially to encourage the use of cotton and partly because of the privatization of prisons, which lobbied for its illegality. It wasn't banned because it's bad for you, like most things that have been banned. There's always an ulterior motive for banning that kind of substance.And I didn't say pornography causes cheating, I said there is evidence, a correlation. I'm always a bit wary of correlations, but Cerberus had asked for studies examining the effect on women so I was saying one of the few I know that specifically studied women (very few do).When did this become a discussion about my relationship? My partner shares my opinion, neither of us uses porn. I somehow wound up with the unattainable boyfriend mentioned below that girls shouldn't hold out for. I have never had a problem with pornography in my relationships. Only among my friends and in situations of casual hook ups has there been an issue for me. It's something I see affecting others and affecting my friends. Strangers on buses and in other places have randomly started talking (or even crying) about it without prompting because it's causing them to be that miserable and it's just hard to watch. I'm not against it because it's ruined or hurt my relationship in some way, I'm against it because of what I see it doing to others.
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reader, lovebird1  +, writes (13 May 2011):
Thanks Miamine, you told us what this discussion is about in a nutshell.
I think pornography is not the cause for instable and unsatisfied relationships. I think that in our society, we're kind of forced to always look out for something new and better, also in sex, also in relationships. There's no mentality of accepting imperfect things. Porn is just one possible way to compare and be dissatisfied.
I don't think this problem is easily solved with control. And dear person12345, you can't force your partner to develop the same attitude as you.
Your long and angry discussion will not benefit your relationship.Even if science and everybody else would say that you're right, what help is this for your problem?
What I want to say. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong.
It won't change your partner and your problems. Don't waste your energy on getting reassured you have every right to change and push him.
If he doesn't treat you the way you perceive as fair, and if he consistently behaves in a way you can't tolerate, then you need to be consequent and look for someone who will. Since this topic is really important to you it obviously troubles your relationship a lot and there's no easy compromise as it seems.
I really like your posts on dearcupid, by the way, even if I don't share your opinion here.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (13 May 2011):
Wow.. we've gone from "is pornography cheating" to "pornography will cause you to cheat".... all this scientific evidence, yet pornography addiction is still not in the diagnosis manual for psychiatrist and is still not illegal in many parts of the world.... why does pornography exist if the science is as sound as you say? And why wasn't it banned in Britain or America when their governments last studied the issue?
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reader, person12345 +, writes (13 May 2011):
person12345 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionCerberus, your views change from post to post because you are rational and logical on most answers and give extremely good advice, and then when it hits porn you are irrationally angry. I find it extremely amusing that you think you are open to new opinions, especially when it comes to porn as you are completely set in your ideas about it. Other than new ways you can masturbate, what claim can you possibly have to being open minded and open to new ideas about porn? In my entire time on DC I have yet to see you say a single thing that would indicate a change in your attitude. I'm certainly not the only one to notice that you go flying off the handle at porn posts. I have had my mind changed on this numerous times, it's just not in the direction you would like. I used to be a fairly heavy porn user myself who changed because of readings and research and talking to people.
And I don't care what positive influence you believe porn is having on your life, anyone who believes it is healthy to dehumanize people in porn so he can wank to them has problems. You do realize that the first step in genocide is to dehumanize a class of people, right? That's the other famous place objectification happens. It's not OK to not care about the wellbeing of other people just so you can have an orgasm. That's also an attitude that is necessary for rape to happen. Also, It weakens your argument to throw in a straw man about how I'm wrong because I'm "obsessed" in that I am a radical feminist. Because between the categories, someone who wanks to pornography, and someone who has researched the topic extensively and used it regularly in the past, who do you think knows more about it?
And you're right, porn doesn't cause normally nice caring men to be rapists. But it does change what they expect from women, even rapists are raping differently. For instance on college campuses there has been an increase in anal rape attributed to pornography by victims (attackers had quoted lines from pornography, talked about it, or showed it to them first) and by the college nurses. It does cause people to be less sympathetic to rape victims, to be less likely to believe rape victims. Even women, when shown violent pornography, believe these types of "rape myths" and lose empathy for female victims. Considering that in my country only 3% of all rapes that occur end in any kind of conviction and that fewer than 10% of convictions end in jail time, that's a problem (citation: this was a senate hearing). It's true, only violent pornography really has a seriously negative impact in terms of how people view violence against women. But over 85% of scenes feature physical violence against women (most frequently gagging and slapping) and 48% featured verbal violence against women and close to all of them feature titles that are horrifically sexist and degrading. Even pornography of just plain consensual sex (which is becoming more and more rare) is usually something incredibly degrading. And when the studies on pornography and aggression were being done in the late 80s, they found such a strongly negative impact from showing people pornography that future studies had trouble getting approval from ethics boards. It was such a strongly negative impact that it was deemed a harmful substance and could not be administered to gauge impacts.
As per the topic below, romantic movies, of course media has an impact on our lives. But I don't think romantic movies have the same impact as even violent movies or pornography. I don't think the effect is much different from say, men who watch too many action movies where the female leads will randomly rip off their clothes and have sex with the male leads. Do men expect that to happen? Probably not. For one, people don't masturbate to regular movies. A fascinating suite of studies examined the effect arousal has on men and sexual violence. One group was simply asked questions, basically would you ever rape a woman in various forms. The men who were just asked cold responded around the normal amount (approximately 25% of men say they would rape a woman if they knew they could get away with it). However, in the group that were asked while they masturbated, men were significantly more likely to say they would treat a woman violently to get sex. The point is that masturbating to something does dramatically change how people respond to media. It's like taking a hit of cocaine every time you watch something.
I'm also going to take the fact that the only way you can argue about this is to throw in a "well women do some things that annoy me too" to mean you have nothing to add other than the fact that you like porn, that "women in porn aren't human," and that if you like it that must mean all people who are against pornography are wrong to mean you actually have no good arguments. If the only way you can argue that porn is a good influence is to try to show what a bad influence everything else is, then that's a pretty unconvincing argument. Especially given how many times you claim porn has no impact yet believe it's OK to not care about the people in porn for an orgasm. This is not a discussion about how other forms of media shape people's lives in other ways, this is a discussion about pornography and how it effects relationships. Though if you want to go there, I have to say that the ramifications of false expectations from a romance movie, that a guy feels a need to be more romantic, are far less severe than the ramifications of false expectations from porn, that lead some women to excessive dieting, surgery, and completely ignoring their own pleasure during sex to at worst men raping their partner to fulfill some fantasy, which happens more often than you'd think. It's happened to several of my friends even. There's also no difference whatsoever to women wanting a romantic guy to a guy wanting a hot woman, again a comparison having nothing to do with the topic of pornography, which is what this article is about. But like I said, if you can't give any good points on how porn is a positive influence other than to point out something else that women do, well then I'm going to go ahead and assume you have absolutely nothing other than it feels good as a pro for porn. This seems to be a theme with your arguments, "Well you may think porn is bad, but vibrators are worse. You may think porn is bad, but movies are worse. You may think porn is bad, but..." Further I'd like to point out nowhere in my piece did I say anything about not believing media has a negative influence on people and relationships. That's kind of a basic part of being a feminist, believing that in general, "the media" is basically pretty messed up.
About your point of women using porn? Yeah, it's harmful to women too. There's evidence that women who use pornography are more likely to develop a compulstion with it than men are. As well, there are some correlations that show porn users are more likely to cheat, and women who use porn are far more likely than men to have this problem by a fairly large margin. It has slightly different effects, but yes, it affects women as well. I talk about men because by and large relationships destroyed by porn are mostly from a male partner using rather than a female one, though that's changing. Now men and women are becoming more equal in hurting their partners. Is that really the kind of equality we should be aiming for? The solution to porn causing problems isn't for everyone to start using porn.
Odds, I'm not sure where you get your information on oxytocin release. Significantly more oxytocin is released when a person masturbates with pornography than without.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (13 May 2011):
One last thing.. pornography and anal sex.. I'm disturbed about the fashion for anal sex in pornography, however it is nothing new. Anal sex is very common in religious societies as it preserve vaginal. Research based on the abstinence programme in america showed that religious kids who took the virginity pledge were more likely to indulge in anal sex. Very common in catholic countries. The French are known to favour anal sex as a part of love making for a long time. You assume that porn is causing anal sex, but it has been popular with many people in many countries for a long time.
You don't like the reverse cowgirl and then blame this on porn, but it might be educational websites like sex101.com that we often refer people too. Women and men are encouraged to be adventurous about sex, this is more to do with "The joy of sex" written by Dr. Alex Comfort as a marital aid in the 1970's and the Feminist movements fight to give women the right to an orgasm.
You blame porn for many things which have existed for a long time but may not be known to you.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (13 May 2011):
You must also avoid TV and Movies because many actors and actresses are addicted to illegal drugs. Same goes for the music business. Why is it only drug use in pornography that worries you when people in all types of industries take drugs?
About sex and illegal drugs, the Karma Sutra written hundreds of years before drugs were made illegal does recommend Marijuana as well as fruit as a way to make sex even better.
Also there is no such clear division between legal and illegal drugs. Marijuana, LSD, Opium have all been used for medicine as well as entertainment purposes. Society puts a label on the drug, and decides whether they are legal or not. The drugs have been here for thousands of years and are the basis of many modern medicines. Laws change, Marijuana illegal yesterday is now given out for relief of pain and medical conditions. Likewise pornography is legal is many countries and it is only recently in man's history has there been so many restrictions about it's publication. Pornography wasn't developed in the last 100 years, so claims that it will somehow destroy the world can't be taken seriously.
If you want to help the people in porn, then stop calling them skanks, that will help them more than the pretend worry about their health and working conditions.
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reader, anonymous, writes (12 May 2011): Hmmm, comparing weed and prescription medication to hardcore drugs.. Sorry, you cannot compare so no. It's worrying that you do not know the difference between people having a chill and getting drunk after work as opposed to women desperate for money under sometimes awful circumasances, encouraged or feeling the need to take drugs to over come the fact that they are prostituting themselves so to say. If you seriously are not aware of the darker side to the pornography industry, don't shoot my comments down so quickly and look into it. I do not live in a cave, I am quite aware of the suffering around the world, you do not have to educate me on this, and I am also quite aware that we can not spend our lives worrying about it. We cannot stop it but yes we can do things to help it. Do not buy Nestle products for example, buy fair trade or cut back. I donate money monthly to both Unicef and Red cross, we can all do things to help situations, and no, unfortunatly we cannot stop them.I do not demand cheaper products nor do I splash out on myself, I live to a tight budget and get by, and I still don't shop for cheaper goods to help me do so. I have every right to have an opinion, just as you do. I do not have a cozy 'box' of a home, I have most definatly had my share of rough times and I have most definatly not had an easy life. I'm 22 years old and I've had more problems than most people I know that have been on this planet twice as long as me. I will not go into the suffering I've had to deal with throughout my life, as it is personal and I do not need to share it.Do you know me? Do you know how I live my life? No, so please don't feel the need to tell me. I have a minimum wage job, I am very greatful for what I have got and just from one comment I posted, you naively assume this is my reason entirely for not liking porn. I do not lack empathy, you are rather defensive, I wonder why that is?The OP, in MY opinion, got everything spot on, covered many important views, and I happen to agree entirely. I am not at all effected by your opinion, nor do I care if it is different from mine. And I do not have to justify myself, because I am content with myself, and my views.Maybe you should step out of your cosy box once in a while and accept some other's have very differnt views than you, and this is part of life.
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reader, anonymous, writes (12 May 2011): I have a friend who gets stoned to work at a video rental store because he doesn't like the job and being stoned makes it easier and he needs the cash. Should I stop renting videos too? An absolutely huge amount of people are prescribed medication due to job related stress in all fields of employment, porn isn't a special case of that at all. Most people I know like to go get wasted on the weekends after a long week of working, it's the thing they look forward to. Whats the difference? There is none. Lots of people work shit jobs for shit pay and lots of them will medicate to make it easier, you're assuming everyone who works in porn hates it, they don't. Bad shit happens in every job, people take drugs to cope with lots of different jobs, prescribed or otherwise. I couldn't care less what happens the women or *men* in a porn movie I'm watching, I'm not going to go vet every video to ensure the women and *men* in those videos aren't doing it under duress. If I suspect they may be then I don't watch it. I didn't shun that part of the industry, you're being nonsensical. If that is your reason for not liking it then the next time you drink a coca cola, try having a look at how they treat their employees in 3rd world countries. Next time you have a starbucks have a look and see what kind of deal the coffee producers are getting. The next time you buy a child's toy and see the label "made in china" google what kind of conditions the Chinese have to tolerate in their employment or perhaps that was made by a political prisoner who was beaten and executed later that day because they're productivity was too low for them to be of use.Next time you buy a piece of clothing check the label and see which country the sweat shop is located in, where 8 year olds are worked to the bone for a dollar a month all so you can look pretty on your night out, don't think it happens? Think again. If you want to get all high and mighty about it, then take a nice long look around you at the world we live in. Everything you own, everything you buy is made on the blood, sweat and tears of other people. If you're American or British remember the fuel in your car is that cheap because it is filled with the blood of a million Iraqi's beaten, tortured and executed because they had something you wanted, no other reason.The very computer you're using now, your mobile (cell) phoneany piece of electronic equipment you use, is made from coltan a mineral which comes from the Democratic republic of the Congo, which is estimated to contain as much as 80% of the worlds coltan reserves. 5.4 million people have died in the war that the illegal coltan trade has funded since 1998. 400,000 women a year are raped in the Congo, it has gotten so bad there that rape has even spread from the conflict zones into the civilian population as just a "normal" part of life. Do you shun that aspect of using your laptop/computer as you sit in front of me using it? Do I shun that aspect? No, but I'm not going to spend my life worrying about it because there's nothing I can do to stop it, just like I can't walk around naked and I can't starve because I know the things I use and buy are drenched in the suffering of other people. It bothers me, I don't like it but I have to live my life and accept that exploitation is the way of the world and whether you're working long hours, underpaid for McDonalds or sticking your dick up someones ass we still have to do what we have to, to survive and live. Neither job is worse nor better, it's all relative.1 billion (1/6) of the people in this world live in shanty towns, they live in abject squalor just to feed the system we live in. We in the west have colonized, abused, plundered, pillaged and raped everyone else of everything to make our own lives better, that's just the way things are anon. It's estimated that 12-27 million people live as complete slaves, total subjugation to a master. I don't shun any of that so do you shun all these things knowing that you help all this by buying these products and voting for this kind of system? Knowing that your money and your demand for better cheaper things makes others suffer so completely? No you don't. You have a very dim view of women that do that kind of thing if you label them all skanks, they're not skanks for doing that job, they're just women trying to make a living. There's no need to call them names or put them down for that. You said yourself some of them suffer really bad treatment, and yet you still think it's okay to call a woman like that a skank? I don't think so OP. They're not hurting anyone, but perhaps themselves, they deserve as much respect as anyone else because they're not bad people. They don't deserve to be treated or viewed that way by anyone because they're not doing anything illegal they're just doing what they can to make their way in this world like the rest of us. Try looking outside of your nice cozy box every once and a while and have a look at how the world really works anon, because it seems it's you that lacks empathy.
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reader, anonymous, writes (12 May 2011): Of course the women in porn are skanks.. They are prostitutes! Just because they are not hanging about a street.. And yes drug use is extremely common in the porn industry, and yes sadly some pornstars can only live with what they are doing by taking these drugs. But be quick to shun off this aspect of pornography to justify your own views and 'needs.'
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reader, Gabrielle Stoker +, writes (12 May 2011):
 On the limited subject of drugs in porn - while the use is widespread, it is not absolute. I never touched a narcotic substance while I was doing porn (or before or since) and I'm certainly not the only one. Generalization and unconsidered value judgements do not help a discussion of this nature.
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reader, anonymous, writes (12 May 2011): "Would you honestly want your partner to take drugs or get smashed out of her head so she can perform like the skanks you see in porn?"
Ah I see now. Women who do porn are "skanks" eh?
I don't need my partner to be smashed off her face to perform like that, we both do it for fun anyway, we experiment and make our own porn, we've tried pretty much everything except waste fluids. We have experimented with all sorts of drugs and sex to see what it was like too. (Sex on LSD is amazing by the way).
FYI: Sexual experimentation is healthy, it's fun and if it's mutual can be a thoroughly amazing life experience. Regardless of where you get your inspiration from. Not all guys are idiots just like not all women are victims.
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reader, anonymous, writes (12 May 2011): Anon again. I think DC is being a bit slow today so messages aren't getting updated as quickly as we think. [Mod note: we are volunteers and see 100s of answers a day here. Please have some patience. Thank you for your consideration.] The relationship game is a minefield and it's all about getting together with the right partner for you, kiss a few frogs, that kind of thing. So, there are bound to be disappointments. I can honestly say, I have never ever gained an unrealistic view of relationships from films/romance novels. In terms of waiting for, in your words "Mr Right", well that's all about chemistry, passion, etc. For instance, I went out with a guy who was all over me, suffocating in fact and despite the fact he would do anything for me, it was just a complete turn off. Cut to present day and my partner who I'm with now, is the complete opposite, allows me space etc. Now, going on your Romance theory, I guess I should have gone for the one that did do everything because that's what they do in films right - but it doesn't work like that. In the end, we just weren't compatible, nothing at all to do with films/novels. I did have a friend that dated a rich guy and admittedly she became a bit of a bore, talking about money etc, for which I pulled her up on it and told her to stop bragging. He might have been a rich guy but he had issues and it was the unhappiest time of her life. Now, I like to see both sides of an argument and you stated that I clearly "don't like porn" or "don't watch it". Well, I am open minded and I did watch it so don't put things in your argument that are clearly not true. I decided after watching it that I didn't like it, I had concerns that I was having better orgasms through porn than I was with my partner, who happens to be a very skilled lover. It was like a red flag waving and I thought, oh oh, I'm not happy with this. I'd rather ditch the porn and tune back in with my man.
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reader, anonymous, writes (12 May 2011): Anon reader I don't think you understand what we're saying at all. We're not talking about re-enacting scenes from a movie, we're talking about unrealistic expectations brought on by romance in movies a distorted view of romance and romantic expectations put on men that no man can live up to.
It's just impossible to explain it to you, because you're not going understand or you'll just see it the way most women do as not a big deal, something which is normal but pretty much every guy knows exactly what I'm talking about because they've experienced it.
You'd have to be a guy who dated a lot of women to know what we're talking about, because a lot of women themselves are convinced that's not what they're doing, they really are convinced of that. Yet there are so many women that are single long term, thoroughly depressed and lonely because they haven't found "Mr. Right", women who's expectations of men are so high that they've become very picky and they just won't "settle" for anything less than their dream guy. They go through life dating guys and then failing at relationships because they just can't understand why no guy fits into their perfect mold, you can't tell me that women are too intelligent for that, take a look at the homepage of this site.
Every guy I know has dated a woman like that, we pretty much have all dated a woman who's tried to change who we are a person, or change certain traits to suit what she thinks is her ideal man, we've all dated a woman who no matter how romantic we are, no matter what we do it's just never enough. Instead of accepting us, flaws and all they believe that if a man really loved them he'd change for them. That's a ridiculous romantic fantasy. Why should anyone have to change who they are to suit another persons expectations? Yet I've dated women that wanted me to change something about myself, to be what they saw as a "real man". I'm not saying the same thing doesn't happen for men, of course it does and as you explained some guys get some ridiculous notions that they can change their girlfriends sexual behaviour to do things they've seen in porn, we have a great example of that recently, a husband who wants to cum on his wife's face. Something which she is adamant she doesn't want to do, but which is tearing him up because he feels he "needs" it. So yeah porn causes a lot of problems for some guys, but for you to say the same type of expectation doesn't apply to women, to say that they can't get the same ridiculous notions from romance movies is just not true. Every guy will tell you that it happens and it happens far too often.
Just look at the amount of women posting here who are dating players and bad boys, hoping that their love will change them. Where did they get the idea that happens? It never happens. No mother would teach their daughter that asshole men can change. What gave those women the notion, the hope that, that happens. It doesn't happen, it only happens in romantic fiction and it's the most popular kind of romantic scenario in romantic fiction. Tortured, aggressive, cheating bad boy gets tamed by the female protagonist. Women are constantly being let down by guys who don't match their romantic expectations, they get into a lot of situations where they completely ignore the reality of the situation and hope that love will conquer all. Again who the hell teaches their daughters that kind of concept? What kind of parent would teach their little girl to stay in a horrible relationship with the hopes that it will change because love will make it change.
You say it's not the same, well that's only because you don't think romance movies are a big deal, the same as a lot of guys don't see porn as a big deal. The same logic applies to both.
I had one ex who left me because I didn't pay for everything, pull out her seat, always hold doors open for her, didn't whisk her away on romantic holidays I always got compared to guys in those movies, I watched movies with her where she'd blatantly point out things that she'd like to me to do or hint at it disguised as jokes. I've had other girls who would sigh loudly at certain scenes in those movies and gush over how perfect that guy is. (how is that different to a guy watching porn wishing his girlfriend would be more rough in the sack?) She actually told me I was cheap and that I didn't know how to treat a woman, yet I did pay for most things and then equally, not once did she pay for anything for me because she felt the man had to do all that. What world is she living in? yes she's living in a fantasy.
You can't say that doesn't happen, we all know it does. Men aren't the only ones who get too caught up in their fantasies, men aren't the only ones who can mistake fantasy for reality, chemically, neurologically, psychologically or otherwise. Women aren't immune to these concepts, so please stop trying to paint women as perfect and men as evil, flawed creatures that you have to change to suit you and what you think, both you and person12345 are doing that, both of you don't even mention the women who like and use porn at all, you only paint women as victims. You're going to completely ignore the women that use porn too because they don't fit into this perfect little box that you for porn being only harmful to men.
You see? This isn't about porn at all, it's about men vs women for both of you. It's just a power play, a method of control, a way for you to both to emotionally blackmail guys into hating something you don't like, you want to feminize guys, you want us to think your way and you use any method you can to try and change us and we're the ones being damaged by porn?
You both seem to be far more damaged by porn than any guy I've ever met. You both don't even watch porn yet it has severely distressed you both and has become an obsession to person12345 that is as harmful as any guys addiction to it because she hates it so much that she has come to conclusion it must be a form of cheating and it causes men to be rapists. Person12345 is so obsessed by porn she gets her "two lines = a clinical diagnosis" friend to psychoanalyze a random guy on the internet and his posts to back her up. When I log off I don't even think about it, the last time I even used it was about a month ago. But person12345 is passionate about it, is consumed so much by it that she made it her field of expertise and all she spews is extreme negativity, she won't even consider that there is anything good to porn at all, not even slightly. Even when confronted with evidence to the contrary, even when I tell her it has had a positive impact on my life and sex life, she tries to prove me wrong, tries to show how it has been bad for me. How is that kind of passionate hatred and obsession any more healthy than a passionate love and addiction for it?
It's the same thing as I see it, the fact that person12345 is not even willing to accept that women too are prone to harmful fantasy nor does she consider anything else in existence comparable with porn shows that she just has an all consuming hatred of it. Which is a pretty concrete trait in such extreme views.
Cognitive dissonance?
Why do my arguments not match from post to post? Why do I contradict myself sometimes? Because I'm willing to change my views, I'm willing to consider new information and alter my opinions of something if I feel that new information changes things, or makes more logical sense. I always seek to improve my interpretations of things, learn new perspectives and see things in different ways. If it will improve my life, make me see things for the better then I'm perfectly willing to adapt. Plus I don't really care that much about porn, I just love a good fiery debate and if in challenging the most recent post I contradict something I say earlier, I'm fine with that. My opinions are never 100% set in stone, only my opinions of the extremes, like rape, murder, paedophillia etc. never change. Anything else I'm willing consider any point of view and adapt my own views if new information seems more plausible or correct. If that's a psychological deficiency, a disorder and if porn has caused that then I'm glad.
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reader, anonymous, writes (12 May 2011): Anon again. Just wanted to say that I believe a lot of porn stars take drugs or drink to excess in order to get through some of the scenes; and it's these very scenes that you guys are asking your women to perform because you've seen it in porn and you want to "spice up your sex lives"!!! Can anyone else see the futility in this argument? Would you honestly want your partner to take drugs or get smashed out of her head so she can perform like the skanks you see in porn?
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reader, anonymous, writes (11 May 2011): @ ODDS - Unfortunately I cannot put things quite as eloquently as Person12345 but bear with me. Please give me an example of a woman asking a man to do something which she has seen in a movie - I don't behave like that and none of my friends do so I'm at a bit of a loss on this one. Have you seriously dated a girl that asked you to reenact a scene from a movie or asked you to behave like Brad Pitt? Seriously?? If you still stand by your stance that you can pick up hints and tips from porn, then surely you are introducing a double standard here - you don't want your other half to get you to act like Brad Pitt but you equally want her to copy what you've seen in porn!!
I believe, and I'm sure you will correct me if I'm wrong, but if you read up on any porn star, they tend to NOT do the things on screen when they are at home with their partner - they are being paid to take it up the a&&&, have cum on their face or do the reverse cowgirl!! It's a days paid work for them. But a bloke watching it, thinks great, these women are hot, why doesn't my partner do that? That's where the fantasy crosses over with reality. Again, I will stand by the fact that the reverse cowgirl is the most awfully uncomfortable position EVER and I'd say my partner going down on me is not in anyway uncomfortable for him or me. In fact it's quite delightful. So you see, this is not about give and take because I wouldn't ask him to do anything that made him uncomfortable, like taking my rabbit up his jacksie on high speed, unless of course that is what he wanted!! Again, men are so cagey about their porn use through years of lying or trying to hide it, that even if you ask them straight up at the beginning of a relationship they bloody well lie. So women invest in relationships thinking the man is one thing, but then his predelections come out leaving the women confused about what is going on, or suddenly he devlops ED and can't then get it up for his gal! The men then use the excuse that the sex is boring, without trying anything themselves to rectify the situation. I'd suggest too that if your other half isn't putting out or you think the sex is boring, then you are equally responsible to try and improve the situation, not then turn to porn like it's your right to do so! Also, if your other half no longer puts out, it's time to look at your own technique as you are clearly not pressing the right buttons for her!!
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reader, Odds +, writes (10 May 2011):
@ Anon
I think what JMTMJ meant was that women do want their men to act like the studs in romance movies, or the long-suffering men who wait forever while women play around in Sex and the City. That sort of thing. I'm having a hard time seeing how you missed that.
I also think you're making quite a leap in thinking that, just because porn is fantasy, that trying a new and exciting position means a failure to seperate fantasy from reality. It would be like saying women who want romantic vacations with their men are only emulating romance movies, just because so many of them involve travel. It's ridiculous. The fantasy element comes from the complete detachment from the frankly cartoonish characters on the other side of the screen. They're actors playing a two-dimensional role (in the metaphorical sense); while the actors are real people, except for their tits, the characters are not. Most guys never meet porn starlets anyway - though that could change without us realizing it as more people put up amateur videos.
Of course, that leaves aside the admittedly decent arguments Person12345 made about brain chemistry. Just addressing the flaw in your logic, not hers. I still hold that the lack of oxytocin makes a significant difference, though.
Anyway, whether or not women's standards and expectations are screwed up by romance novels and movies, or by the depictions of women in TV shows (seriously, rich guys don't wait in the wings for however many seasons pining over the late-30's woman while she sleeps around), the ability to tell fantasy from reality is an individual trait. Some people can't handle it, and need to stay away. Most people handle it just fine.
Even if the debate over whether it actually affects people was magically settled, the issue of people still not wanting their lovers to watch porn or read Twilight is still a real and meaningful one. Do what I do - don't date someone who lets those things screw them up. If I'm dating someone and they start expecting me to act in unrealistic rom-com ways, I explain why it's not happening. If they persist, I leave. You don't like porn? Don't date a man who watches it.
I'm not sure why any woman who hates porn is so dead-set on getting men to stop, when it's such an easy way to tell that he supposedly has traits she does not desire. If a guy gave up porn, would the anti-porn women suddenly be lining up to date him? The past is the past, right?
Lastly, reverse cowgirl is not the position for moneyshots. And it's enjoyable in real life because the man gets a good look at her ass. It's the woman pleasing her man, same principle as a man going down on his woman. You don't have to like it, but sometimes it's fun for one person to focus purely on the other person's pleasure, even if it takes a bit of effort.
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reader, anonymous, writes (10 May 2011): To JMTMJ - if I understood your latest question I might be able to answer it?? Sorry, but it doesn't make sense at all - further clarification required. I am a woman, not a man! If a man is asking his lady partner to do things he has seen in porn, despite all the men saying that this is fantasy only, then my argument was why don't women ask their men to reenact something she has seen in a romantic film/novel - this appears to be the basis of an Uncle's argument!!! Of course women don't do this, we are too intelligent and KNOW that it is fantasy! But it would appear that the boundary's are somewhat blurred from the men's perspective, hence why they want their partner to reenact what they have seen in porn, hence "will you let me sha& you up the ar**" scenarios are played out time and time again. Or wait for it, the guy wants his partner to try the reverse cowgirl, despite this being the most awful, uncomfortable position ever, and is purely in porn for the money shots!!!! Reality check required!!!
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reader, eyeswideopen +, writes (10 May 2011):
Okay who blew out the margins?????
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reader, Jmtmj +, writes (10 May 2011):
"Do the women ask the men to behave like Brad Pitt from some romantic movie?"
Have you ever dated a woman before...?
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reader, anonymous, writes (10 May 2011): Wait a second, the guy's argument does not stand up then. If the men realise that porn is fantasy and have issues with their significant other because she enjoys fantasy novels, why the hell are men asking their women to perform stuff they have seen in porn!! Do the women ask the men to behave like Brad Pitt from some romantic movie? No, of course not! This argument is silly!! You go Person12345, another clear, concise and fantastic response!
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reader, person12345 +, writes (9 May 2011):
person12345 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionIn my last response what I said to Auntie Tracey is the longest part. I'd hardly say that's ignoring. There is a huge difference between a small vibrator and buying the most enormous dildo she can. Like porn no one needs an enormous dildo and since many men are so insecure about penis size, she shouldn't continue to use it if it's making him feel bad. But a small external vibrator is much closer of an aid to lube than to porn, whereas one of those enormous "rabbit" dildo things with all the bells and whistles, while not similar to porn in how your brain responds, likely makes her partner feel similar to how she feels when he uses porn and she should stop if it's making him feel bad. I've never stated that's OK to continue to do. And I'm unsure where you get this idea that all women who feel bad about porn are out being hypocrites and getting off to horrible things that make her partner feel like crap. In fact from all the couples I've heard from I've only heard of this happening maybe once or twice and my response was the same. She should stop or buy a smaller vibrator. Usually everything is solved if they pick out one together. In fact in most of these couples the women weren't even masturbating on their own. Fewer than half of women in relationships masturbate, and it only rarely causes the same problems porn use causes. Porn and masturbation are two completely different things. There are equivalents to these dildos that make you so angry though, and you'll notice I haven't even mentioned them. But basically, small vibrator=lube for men, dildo=masturbation sleeve, porn=porn. Much as you'd like to claim that each "category" of thing causes the same level of damage as the others, they just don't. You're comparing apples and oranges here. This is a discussion about pornography, not about how women are hypocrites because they have orgasms too. When we start hearing about millions of marriages and relationships being ruined from a vibrator, then this discussion has more of a point. Personally I think it's idiotic for anyone to destroy their relationship and hurt their partner just for a quick orgasm, whatever the cause.Women who hate the idea of porn in their relationships are no more controlling than men and women who hate the idea of sex with other people in their relationship. It's incredibly controlling to tell someone they can't kiss or have sex with other women. How can anyone argue that it's not? In fact I'd say it's far more controlling to say that your partner can never ever have sex with another person ever again in his or her life than to request that they masturbate without porn. But that control is accepted by most. Monogamy is extremely controlling. Asking a partner to not use porn is far less controlling than say, asking a partner to never be sexual with another human being again.It's a little strange to use yourself as an example of how harmless porn is. You go into a furious rage at anyone who thinks porn is harmful, swearing and throwing personal attacks in and practically spitting (if it was possible to spit from a computer). I've been over this before, that this absolute fury that comes through extremely clearly, is cognitive dissonance. I've even showed several of your posts to my friend who is a psychologist and she didn't even need to read more than two lines to come to the same conclusion. We've been over this before, but basically when presented with evidence that you can't rationalize away, your brain finds a way to make it work with what your opinion is by just being angry since the two things cannot simultaneously exist in your brain. As I've said before, you claim porn has no effect on you while simultaneously saying it's OK to dehumanize women in porn, that they are objects rather than people, and that you don't "give a crap" about women in porn. Most of the men I've talked to who claim porn has no impact on their lives clearly have issues that come from it. For instance, a friend of mine who reacts the same way you do, with rage at the idea that porn could harm anyone, does not personally believe it harms him. He just got dumped due to being unable to feel intimacy or closeness to a woman, he stares down women's shirts and at their butts in a completely inappropriate way, and he consistently makes incredibly sexist jokes and comments. As do all of my friends who watch a lot of porn. I collected many quotes from the porn watching crowd of DC for my article and believe me, the harm porn does, even to the ones who supposedly aren't harmed, comes through loud and clear. As well this weird entitlement to dehumanize women to have a quick orgasm is also a direct example of the harm it supposedly doesn't do.Men and women aren't that different. They are far far far more alike than they are different. The differences between individuals is so much greater than those between men and women that it's not even worth generalizing anything about the natural tendencies of men and women. The way men and women react during orgasm is identical, the way men and women react when shown pornography is pretty much the same, men and women both experience horniness when they don't orgasm every so often, both are capable of becoming dependent on pornography, both are capable of feeling hurt by a partner's use. This supposed burden of the insatiable male libido is something pretty much created by habit and a sense of male privilege, rather than true libido.And as for the feminist side of this that you take so many random shots at, all of my friends who were raped as children were groomed with pornography. Several of my friends have been raped at parties after they all watched pornography. One of my friends was gang raped while they quoted lines from the gang bang pornography they just watched, while a friend filmed it, then distributed it to her school. Girls are being raised to believe this is how they must behave during "sex" and boys are being raised to believe this is how they should treat women during "sex." You just need to look through the questions on this site about how convince unwilling women to swallow, allow "money shots," and perform anal without regard to whether she would find it painful, degrading, or enjoy it. Many of the OPs even admit it's a direct result of viewing pornography, and these are the "normal" viewers. The ones who supposedly aren't harmed are the very same ones requesting a partner perform acts she very much does not want to do just to satisfy his porn fantasy. And this is a much more common occurrence than you think. I can't tell you the number of friends I have who have been made miserable through threats of breaking up, cheating, etc… just to satisfy some idea her boyfriend got from porn that she doesn't want to do.
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reader, anonymous, writes (9 May 2011): I love the way Auntie Tracey's statement was completely ignored even though she's completely correct.
Except that doesn't fit into the perfect feminist mold that the anti-porn people have.
You know the more I see this the more I see women trying to dictate how porn effects men. Now just like some of my comparisons were baseless, the fact remains, this is just about women wanting to control men at the end of the day because they simply will never know what it is like for a guy to experience sex or masturbation. Men and women are far too different.
Because you can quote all the studies you want, this is about control. All the anti-porn women want to tell us how bad it is for us, so we'll stop. Well tough ladies, our bodies our choice, you don't like it, don't date us.
Does porn cause some people problems? yes it does. Does it mean everything person12345 says is 100% true for all men? No, even she will admit that. I and the majority of men I know are proof of that.
It's actually very simple to be honest, it really is about domination and control. Anti-porn women are sexual control freaks. They want to dominate their partners sexuality and that's it. They want to trap their guy into doing what they want him to do and they use the emotional blackmail of "porn is bad" to do it. No guy here is so vehemently opposed to porn as the women that have posted here yet about half the women that have posted don't mind porn at all and some even like porn. So it's really the anti-porn brigade that are in the minority of insecure control freaks. Hell bent on ruining their partners sexual freedom, chaining him to the bed. And locking his penis up in a box that he can only use when they say and how they say it.
The funniest thing about it is, these women would not give up their sexual control for a man. There's no way they'd stop using their vibrators or stop masturbating for a man, yet they demand their man only masturbate in the specific way they want him to and to do that for them.
Now the people that say using a vibrator isn't the same thing are just talking apples and oranges. They may taste different, they may look different but at the end of the day they're both fruit and they both have a healthy nutritional value to them.
So anti-porn girls. Why don't you give up your fantasies too? Throw out your vibrators and stop watching romantic movies. Stop buying magazines with pictures of Brad Pitt topless at a beach and close your eyes when a well built handsome man walks past. How would you like it if we tried to control your sexuality based on what we like and deem appropriate? I can find studies and facts about vibrator usage making women desensitized to a regular penis, I can find studies about the harmful effects of unrealistic expectations brought on by romance fiction. I can find thousands of questions on this site that prove how many women get so sucked into their fantasies that they let guys walk all over them. I can show you evidence of how popular culture, love songs, romantic movies, novels and all sorts of popular female fantasies have very harmful effects and lead women to believe all sorts of things which aren't reality and leads them to get used and abused.
I can find studies and peer reviews of movies and psychological data to show the extremely negative effects that these expectations have on women. The fact that most romance movies have some kind of tortured, bad boy male lead character, who gets into fights, who cheats, who drinks too much, who is generally just a bad asshole to everyone but is finally tamed and sees the errors of his ways by his love for the female lead. That's not reality, those are huge red flags that women ignore because they get trapped in the fantasies they've grown up to believe can come true.
That doesn't happen in real life, yet you see questions from girls here all the time, wondering why the guy who spits on them and cheats on them over and over, hasn't changed yet. Who gave them the impression that was going to happen? No parent would raise their girl to believe such nonsense so where does that come from? You see if porn gives men bad expectations about sexuality (which it does for a lot of guys, especially young teens) then romantic fiction is just as harmful to young teen girls who dream of their perfect guy. Yet the anti-porn brigade want to ignore that or say it's not the same, because they like romance and they think because they can control their fantasies, yet men's fantasies are harmful to them and we're not able to control them if it's porn.
Guys like that aren't relationship material, a bad boy doesn't become good for love, yet so many girls believe that is what true romance is and they get ruined because of it. You can't ignore a guys history just because that's what happens in the movies, yet many girls do.
So you think porn is bad for guys, then how about you try and improve your own lives first and improve the lives of other women to empower themselves through their own enlightenment, instead of trying to do it by chaining us guys down, instead of trying to change us to fit into this nice little fantasy you have about your perfect guy. This mythical creature that will only ever find you attractive and no one else, or will only ever think about you sexually for the rest of your life. Sorry girls, the only guys that are like that exist in romance movies, the only guys like that are the ones in your fantasies, the ones you won't give up for anyone but expect us to give up ours for you.
No thanks, ladies I welcome your empowerment I think women need to take better control of their lives, get what they want in life but not at my expense, I'm not going to bow down to any woman's attempts to subjugate my sexuality just to appease her standards, if you want empowerment then it comes from within not making us guys your sexual slaves and feminizing us.
Our fantasies aren't the only ones for potential for harm. The fact you choose to ignore that and focus solely on us making the change, is selfish and it's counter-intuitive.
You want to know why a lot of guys are opposed to giving it up for a girl like you? That's why, we don't demand you give up your fantasies because we know that's all it is, even if it does make you very often disappointed with us because we don't fit into the movie mold of perfect partner. Even if almost every guy has felt the effects of not being able to live up to that expectation. You worry that porn girls are better looking than you and that we compare you to them? Then the same applies to men who can just never reach the heights of romance that you so often put on us. Basically women are just projecting their own penchant to compare us to their version of a perfect guy, onto us. We don't do that, we don;t think like that. 'Mrs. right' isn't even in our vocabulary, yet women so often go out looking to meet 'mr. right' a guy who live up to their expectations, it gets so bad for women that they never find a guy like that and wonder why they're single and alone. Or they dump a guy for missing even one of those traits.
So anti-porn girls, porn isn't the problem, it's misuse and your selfish attitude towards it that causes problems. You want to control our cocks, then good luck finding a guy that's happy with that.
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reader, anonymous, writes (9 May 2011): To the men that have answered and have used the analogy that if they didn;'t use porn, then they would fantasise about your best friend, sister etc, they have clearly looked at too much porn!! It's clear that everyone appears to them to be wank fodder!! Lay off the porn! It's interesting but one of the links that Person12345 uses cites a case just like this. A guy who adores his partner but basically eyes women and wants to f**k all of them and thinks it would be the best f&&k of his life - WRONG!!! You are creating your own disatisfaction by doing this. So if the sister bends down and you sneak a peak it's the equivalent of me seeing my bf's best friend's cock hanging out!! The difference is this happened to me and I nearly pissed myself laughing, there was no sexual connotation there at all. I'd suggest if you see something sexual when a lady accidentally reveals her cleavage, then buddy, get a life AND STOP THE PORN!! Women are people, not objects to wank over in your deviant little minds. Also, there appears to be something caused copulatory impotence caused by porn - it means the guy can get it up for porn with a stonking hard on, but fails to get it up for real life sex! I'd suggest that if this has happened to any of you guys, then STOP THE PORN!! It's the porn causing these problems, but your poor partner is the one that suffers because you can't get it up for her!!!
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reader, anonymous, writes (6 May 2011): Person12345, Thank God for people like you on this site, you hit the nail on the head every time :)
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reader, person12345 +, writes (6 May 2011):
person12345 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionOdds, I see what you're saying, but when you get to the porn part it doesn't make a lot of sense. I think if two people have differing sex drives, every so often they are going to have to sacrifice. One person will have to give a bit more, one person will have to back off a bit more. That makes sense. And one person is probably going to masturbate to tide themselves over. But there is no reason that the next step, to add porn in, needs to happen. Masturbation and porn are completely different things. People respond completely differently to the two things. There's no reason a person can't masturbate without porn or with homemade porn of their partner. I'm almost certain that a partner hurt by porn use would rather take a picture or film something and have her or his partner use that than have him or her go online.
Also the vast majority of porn users don't use porn out of horniness. The most common reasons are habit, as stress relief, or as an escape. None of which are healthy and none of which have to do with libido or a partner. The second two sound exactly like any other mood altering drug, "I'm not addicted it's just stress relief." "I just need to get away sometimes. It's not a big deal." So when people on this site reassure others that a partner's porn use has nothing to do with her or him, they mean it. If one partner has a low sex drive, that's frequently used as an excuse to use it, but there is no greater amount of porn use among people coupled with someone with a low sex drive. It just makes for a convenient fall back to claim that. We hear many many many mostly women talk about being up for anything at any time and it's still not "enough." We hear many many many men talk about having sex daily or near daily and still using porn (the only way a libido can be that high is out of habit or a hormone imbalance, and habit would create a much stronger urge to masturbate than true horniness). Clearly porn use isn't usually about libido satisfying.
Not only that, but we know that porn use creates both a sense of dissatisfaction with a partner as well as a dissatisfaction with the level of sex. The more porn people were shown, the less satisfied they were with their sex lives and their partners. Especially when the partner is supposedly not adventurous enough, the dissatisfaction with a partner's sexual curiosity increased significantly with more porn use.
Further, masturbating to porn creates a much more "empty" satisfaction than creating a fantasy in one's head. I've heard this from many former users, and I've experienced it myself.
So basically, there's no reason why a person can't masturbate without porn other than it's less fun. To Tracey, it's not the same as a vibrator. There is NO evidence to back that claim up. I have never seen research that would claim that and the majority of anecdotal evidence I've seen has to do with dildos and penis size insecurity rather than a vibrating device. If it's about the vibration part, many women can't orgasm without a vibrator (not a dildo, but an external non-phallic non-insertable vibrator) and women don't fantasize about a vibrator or even think about the vibrator. A much closer comparison is lube for a guy. Many men can't orgasm without using it, the ones that can without it usually find it creates a better sensation, but they don't fantasize about it, they don't think about it. A vibrator can only be cheating if a man using lube is cheating. I'd agree that a giant vibrating penis could create some similar feelings of insecurity in a male partner and she'd be a hypocrite for continuing to use it while complaining about porn. But the vibrator comparison is overdone and completely wrong. Besides which, like lube, no one develops the same kind of addiction to vibrators and it doesn't create anywhere near the same problems. The only comparison to a man watching porn is a woman watching porn. And I know from many conversations that only a minority of men would be truly OK with their female partner having full access to anything. Most either say it's a guy thing, or that they'd be OK with it so long as she wasn't looking at anything that would make him feel bad.
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reader, anonymous, writes (6 May 2011): I've just looked at one of the links that person12345 provided and what a scary read!! My bf had ED and even went to the Doctor, who could not find anything wrong. I think he and I even questioned whether he found me attractive enough. Classic symptoms of too much porn use and when you read what some of the men have written, it mirrors what happened to us exactly. Perhaps we should do a questionnaire of problems caused by porn, get the men here to answer the questions to see if they themselves have been affected without them realising it.
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reader, Odds +, writes (6 May 2011):
Had a thought just now. This example is probably too specific to apply as a general rule, but I hope it might push the discussion more towards some kind of consensus.
Given that mutual sexual satisfaction is a vital part of any relationship, and that "satisfaction" may include "not being pressured into sex when one is not in the mood, at least not too often," and given that sex drives differ, I wonder if there is some gray area here.
Say there's a couple, the relationship is great in every way except that the sex drives don't match. At some level of mismatch, one could reasonably expect the lower-drive person to just put out a little more. As some greater level of mismatch, one could reasonably expect the higher-drive person to take a cold shower once in a while. And at some even higher level of mismatch, one would expect the relationship to end, probably very poorly.
One way to counter this mismatch would be for the higher-drive person to masturbate more, particularly with porn. Say that the lower-drive partner is uncomfortable with porn use to some degree, but not to the degree of wanting to end the relationship of moderate use.
Would anyone in the "porn is cheating" camp say that there is some gray area between the last two levels, where the lower drive person should just bite their tongue and let the other person look at some porn? Would anyone in the "porn is not cheating" camp say that there is some gray area between the first two levels where the higher-drive person should just do without? Or, if the pro/anti porn is a hard and fast rule (heh), which of the reasons given below do you believe in most strongly?
In particular, I'm interested in what anyone sees as the difference between putting out when one isn't enthusiastic about it and not putting out when one is super-horny. I'm also interested in whether this differs by gender. Should a man reasonably expect a handjob when she has a headache? Should a woman reasonably expect a fingering when he's too stressed to feel aroused?
Again, probably too narrow an example, but it'd be interesting to see where it goes.
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reader, anonymous, writes (6 May 2011): Person1234 Thank you! It's so refreshing to see someone on here that voices their opinion on pornography with a strong attitute. I've recently ended a relationship, I was lied to for so long about porn and it's caused me health problems as well as damaged my self esteem. The guy I was with couldn't have sex normally, he was my first boyriend and I knew no better. He didn't once ejaculate during sex, every time for three years he had to finish himself off. I could never understand why it was so much to ask for someone to just stop using porn if it was 'just a habbit.' Then I realised it wasn't a habbit, but a problem, his problem, that had became mine.
Pornography seriously effects ones views towards the body especially whilst growing up. If both people in the relationship accept porn then there's no problem. If one isn't happy, then porn shouldn't be involved. Why do people spend their lives justifying porn and claiming it to be a habbit that doesn't mean anything rather than simply stopping 'the habbit that doesn't mean anything' to save the relationship? Because it's a problem, that's why.
EXACTLY like you say in this article..
"Sure it's bad for other people, but I'm totally fine.
I could stop whenever I wanted to, but I don't want to.
It's only for stress relief.
How can you sit there judging me? You don't understand what's it's like.
All these comments are not only selfish, but suggestive of a bigger problem.
Of course men are going to think of fantasy women, we all have fantasies, so why not have our own kept in our head rather than go and look at real people that may effect our partners?
..And diverting here.. Using your sister's boobs to wank? Well that's just a whole other issue! Oh dear..
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reader, Miamine +, writes (5 May 2011):
Sorry, making pornography a special case and suggesting it has effects greater than cocaine or intercourse does damage to the argument. Most people are aware that the extreme feelings gained in a drugged state, or the sights, sounds and bodily effects of intercourse and orgasm is much greater than looking at a visual image on screen. They can't take your arguments seriously.I know you may be talking about what science records in the brain, but people just hear you say that pornography gives you the greatest sensation ever and is so addictive there should be a new war on sex.The sophisticated argument is lost and it just sounds like pornography is the most damaging thing invested by man. Readers switch off at this line of argument, it sounds too much like what the church used to say about masturbation. Pornography as breaking a contract, pornography making bad lovers, or pornography destroying body image is a much better line to peruse.PS: Looked at your links, nothing there answered my question about the effects of addiction and arousal on different types of sex activity. What I did see was lots of pseudo science and people again contradicting themselves over issues or addiction and moral choice. The newspaper was anecdotal experiences, I've seen them before, and one guy had depression, but pornography rather than low libido from his mental state was blamed. Couldn't examine the third link, sorry.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (5 May 2011):
Discussions of this nature are problematic and quickly get out of control. This article started by suggesting pornography is cheating (moral issue) and breaks a contractual relationship (legal). It has moved the goal posts by suggesting pornography is addictive and damaging to the brain (scientific)If someone has an addiction, they are sick and need help to reclaim their lives. They cannot then be held totally to blame for looking at pornography. But if they are immoral and break promises, they they are able to stop looking at pornography and simply choose not to.In listing all the wrongs about pornography and mixing them up together, contradictions appear all over the place. People who are anti-pornography might do better to stick to a few arguments that are effective. In blaming pornography for tons of wicked things they place themselves in the position of echoing traditional views against masturbation and sex.In the end as one uncle used to say, cats are cats and dogs are dogs and you can't convince them to change.
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reader, person12345 +, writes (5 May 2011):
person12345 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThe scientific community also doesn't know smoking causes lung cancer, research suggests it. There are many studies out there that show no correlation or a negative correlation between smoking and lung cancer.
You'll note below I said as close to consensus as there really gets, not total consensus. The vast majority of studies show a negative result from pretty much any amount of porn use (of course there are some that find neutral results, but they are far outnumbered), there is vast anecdotal evidence that porn is harmful, the majority of statistics show negative results, but I'm somehow reading this wrong? Research on the effects of pornography has been happening since the 60's (but really started in the 70's). The more data points there are, the more likely it is that a given finding is true. So in this instance, each individual study is considered a data point. In order for a study to be considered truly valid, it has to be repeated several times with the same or similar results. In any given batch of studies, there will be some that think porn is harmful, and some that think it's neutral (there are next to none finding anything positive). When these things are examined, it's called a meta analysis. Basically the purpose of a meta analysis is to figure out what the most prominent result is, by gathering all the studies and running statistics on them (basically with a certain percent, usually 95, certainty the number they've come up with is the true statistic). Every single meta analysis I've seen has come up with negative results from porn use, whether that be the impact on someone's brain, the way they think of women, the way they think of sex, subsequent aggression, etc...
It's not exactly new for people to claim that pornography studies must ALL be biased or opinion based, despite all evidence to the contrary. Some scientists were threatened with death on a regular basis because of what they found and published. That porn has more negative effects than positive on most people is not even close to as highly debated as whether or not caffeine is bad for you. Most in the field agree, but because of the hostility towards people who disagree that porn is a wonderful substance, most don't want to be very loud and public about it. All you have to do is read through comments on this site or any site regarding any article about porn being negative. It's met with EXTREME hostility.
You assume that just because the research "suggests" that means it's not a real finding. But that's how ALL research is done. You cannot prove something or present something as absolute truth or you will not be published. The only way to figure out what the findings are, is to look at the whole picture, meaning as many of the studies as you can, as many of the statistics, as many of the anecdotes. And the vast majority of findings from all three of those categories show a negative correlation. It is statistically extremely improbable that they are all wrong. Basically the vast majority of any kind of science shows that porn use has a negative effect. What is opinion-based about that? It's far more opinion-based to say it's harmless, since there's significantly less backing to that.
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reader, anonymous, writes (5 May 2011): Don't give up person12345, I understand what you are trying to convey and how you are trying to convey it. This is a subjective issue and we'll find no right or wrong answers here. I HATE porn and will not change my opinion on that. Have I watched it - yes. I had a fantastic time masturbating to it but afterwards I didn't feel so good. I then noticed that sex with my bf was not as exciting as the porn and the orgasm not as great, despite him being a good lover. I then new instantly that it was not a good thing. I believe that if you are a nice, decent and kind person with good moral values, then porn would have no place in your life. If you shovel shit into your mind, then that is not a good thing, same as shovelling shit into your bodies in the form of junk food. We can argue emotions or science and people will still have their own opinion.
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reader, Jmtmj +, writes (5 May 2011):
This is your opinion, but you've been presenting it like its fact because what... the entire scientific community agrees on this? Garbage. The scientific community can't even unite on whether coffee is good or bad for you, it all depends on which side of the fence you get your studies from. Exhibit A:
"a 2009 Princeton neuroimaging study of bikiniclad
women’s images lit up the “premotor cortex, posterior middle temporal gyrus,” the areas for “tool-use or manipulable objects.” The research findings suggest sexy images change females “from people to interact with, to objects to act upon.”"
This is to do with mirror neurons... also note the phrase "the research findings SUGGEST"... most research on the brain is far from factual- so lets not connect more dots than are on the page so far, yeh?
Rant over.
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reader, smiliek +, writes (5 May 2011):
i'm not saying porn isn't cheating, to some ppl. Not all though. And fantasies can lead to someone physically cheating which in my opinion is far worse then watching a video. Neither are good for some people at all while others can easily keep porn and real relationships quite easily. The porn debate will never end and there is no right or wrong here. Its all a matter of opinion
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reader, person12345 +, writes (5 May 2011):
person12345 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionI just got sent these links today, so instead of trying to explain this I'll let someone else do it:
A website mostly geared towards addicts, but explains why/how it works:
http://yourbrainonporn.com/
(sorry for the long URL on this next one):
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:a1Jp7BqUf6IJ:candeocan.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/wp-5-brain-science-print-final.pdf+is+more+oxytocin+released+with+porn&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESishqcqovlL7m6hxH1sfwi18gfeJFBkp3Nwo4JakKHv-9IYRaagAZlHwk3YcAElO2xJyA2BVQZgoI3aIAyT_zW4EY5fmG6KerB6WcNI5zpfBWwtpDNX19iXE9yLGR3M8rbSwRHe&sig=AHIEtbSsfZUtjY4TkC-Uja40PS6YaDz4Tw
and I thought this article was interesting:
http://nymag.com/news/features/70976/
I'd like to point out basically the arguments below are, I don't think it's cheating so it's not cheating because I say so. Why does the majority male opinion that it's not cheating matter so much more than the majority female opinion that it is? As talked about below cheating is entirely subjective, every single aspect of it.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (5 May 2011):
Quick question?
If pornography produces the same chemicals as sexual intercourse and taking cocaine?
What are the effects of masturbating with pornography, masturbating using a fantasy in your imagination or taking crack cocaine or some other illegal substance?
Do they have similar or lesser effects or none at all? And what about oral sex or phone sex or webcams. Do they show up as pornography or are they somehow different?
What about the effects on people who have certain sex kinks? Is dressing up in womens underwear more or less addictive?
Opps.. forgot about chocolate, which has been shown to activate the sexual pleasure sensation. Is that the same as video porn?
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reader, Starmonster888 +, writes (4 May 2011):
 There are too many bad attempts to couple neurology and sexuality in this post. Cheating of the mind? Seriously?
Cheating in this context is a colloquil term that is interchangable with adultery.
Watching porn isn't cheating, because watching adult content isnt adultery, masturbating isnt adultery and combining the two isnt adultery.
I cannot write a bulky paragraph like everyone else, because over-analysis usually leads to interesting insight without contexual value.
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reader, Odds +, writes (4 May 2011):
Just would like to point out that, to the brain and body, the response to masturbation (with or without porn) and to sex is *not* the same. In men, sperm count is significantly higher during actual intercourse than it is during masturbation. Maybe that'll change once porn-technology develops to the point of producing scents, tastes, and touch, but for now it's different. In both men and in women, sex releases oxytocin (the cuddle-hormone esponsible for pair-bonding) that is not released in significant quantities during masturbation. What that essentially means is there is no hormonal pair-bonding occuring during porn use that would occur with anything from hand-holding to actual sex with a real life.
Even "meaningless" sex produces a lot of oxytocin. One of the reason's I'm against promiscuity.
So there is a physiological and neurochemical difference.
I haven't seen any studies proving my next point, but I imagine it's the same as the difference between a woman looking a man in the eyes and hearing him tell her she's beautiful and he loves her, versus watching Edward Cullen doing his thing. There's a strong pleasure-center response, same as cocaine, but no real bonding occuring. If I was going to get upset about pure pleasure-center responses, it would be in response to addiction or to changes in how she perceives the way reality "should" be.
Some people have an addictive personality. They tend to get hooked on any kind of instant gratification - gambling, drugs, booze, porn. These people need to stay away. Other folks have self control, and their fun shouldn't be ruined by the horror stories of people without it.
Some people have a ahrder time seperating fantasy from reality. They see an image of some young porn starlet, already hotter than 90% of the population, shooped to inhuman perfection, and either begin to expect that of others or of themselves. They see a movie with a perfect man in it, and either feel bad that they don't compare or that their boyfriend can't compare. Depending on the gender of the person in question. Most people actually can tell fantasy from reality, and shouldn't be restricted just because others can't. Watching Star Trek since I was three hasn't convinced me that warp drives could really exist, and watching porn since I was a teenager hasn't convinced me that every woman needs gravity-defying orb-boobies that bounce of her chin when she nods.
The reason you don't hear of relationships being destroyed by romance movies is because they work more subtly on that subset of women who can't seperate fantasy and reality. They dump decent guys because they aren't exciting enough... the way guys in movies are. They aren't romantic enough... the way all the disney princes are. They aren't already pre-selected by millions of other women... the way celebrities are. At least when porn use destroys a person's ability to fall for the real thing, the cause is obvious.
To me, whether or not I'll use porn during a relationship depends on the woman in question. If she's against it, then she either has to have a sex drive to match mine or we're just not going to work. Kinda have to gauge how she'd feel by getting to know her, though - I've never been able to come up with a smooth way of saying, "You can wait as long as you're comfortable with to put out, I'll just watch porn until then."
Besides which, it takes a while for a girlfriend to get comfortable with doing some of the more fun sexual stuff. Some of it, they'll never want to do. And that's fine with me, I'm not big on pressure. Girlfriends don't exist just to do everything I want. If everything else about our sex life is great, I'll let it go. If it's not up to par, but the rest of the relationship is, there's terabytes of anything I like out there. You say it makes her feel like she can't compare. I say it takes the pressure off her to be perfect. It's all in how you handle it, and how she thinks of it. If she and I disagree on this point, I compare it to the relationship as a whole and decide what's worth it based on the individual.
Is it a perfect system? Hell no. Am I asking for sexual things my girlfriend may not be comfortable with? Hell yes. Do I take "No" for an answer on those things? Of course I do. My response with most things, including porn, is basically ad-hoc. There's give and take in every relationship. But porn has never prevented my from fulfilling my boyfriend-duties - same with alcohol, coffee, my hobbies, or science fiction novels.
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reader, dirtball +, writes (3 May 2011):
 Ok, so stimulation in the brain is similar. Great. That does NOT mean they are perceived as the same. Perception is far more complex. I watch porn, and never have I felt like I'm having sex with the people in the video. I know it's not real, and the reality is I'm having sex with my hand, even if certain areas of my brain can't tell the difference. Because I can separate that, that tells me that there is more to it than what that study illudes to.
Your study, while published, peer reviewed, and compelling, does not begin to encompass a true knowledge of what's happening in the brain. The areas stimulated were very similar. Well, that means that certain other areas were stimulated that weren't by other stimuli. Those other areas may have a much larger influence than we know, or they may be irrelivant. Microscopic differences in neurons can play a huge difference in what shows up on an fMRI. Using that as definitive proof that sex and porn are perceived the same is throwing away the skepticism that true scientists should always hold. After all, you can never really prove something, but you can disprove it. I'm hesitant to take your study as proof. It's interesting, and shows an effect that should be studied more, but jumping to the conclusion you are is simply taking it a step too far in my opinion. That's why conclusions in such journals are always, "based on our theory, we believe this evidence supports..." It's also why the field of psychology gets so much grief from hard sciences like physics or chemistry.
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reader, smiliek +, writes (3 May 2011):
This has all made for some interesting reading, but i'd like to add something else. I would much much rather my hubby look at a porn clip of women he doesnt know than have a 'harmless' fantasy about my friends or his or someone we know. I've been burnt before by a fantasy and let me tell you, it led to me being cheated on. Not only that but it almost cost me my best friend. So no way in hell would i be ok with my hubby fantasising about someone he knows. Thats what my ex did, told me he thought my friend was hot etc etc and she told me that he had informed her that he imagined her naked quite often. When he asked for a threesome with her i thought it would win me his heart. I was young and naive. Instead they ended up having sex while i was on the other end of the bed trying to ignore it. Please tell me how that 'harmless' fantasy remained harmless? I dumped him, she was with him for a bit (cheating on her then fiancé at the time) and we didn't talk for a year. Thankfully our friendship has been repaired since then but i will never believe that a fantasy of someone you know is better then watching porn. I do agree that young ppl watching and excessive use is harmful. But my hubby is respectful, pays a great deal of attention to me during sex, makes it special every time and treats me like a princess. He watches porn rarely and i do not class it as cheating. I've been cheated on twice (by exs) and that felt far far worse then finding out my bf (now hubby) sometimes watchs porn.Every relationship is different and will have its own ideas of what is and isn't cheating. To me hubby fantasising over someone we know is more hurtful then him watching porn. Plus he told me without me asking that when he views a porn clip he is imagining me doing that with him. He watches stuff we do anyway so i see no problem with that. Even if he only said it so i wouldn't worry about the woman i still don't really care. I'd still prefer that over him fantasising about my friends (or his)
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reader, person12345 +, writes (3 May 2011):
person12345 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionDirtball, I wasn't missing your point. My point is that porn and sex are the same in a person's brain. So if someone asks a partner not to have sex with other people, asking them not to look at porn is exactly the same. Of course cheating is subjective and defined by the individual couple. But because our brains (subconsciously) cannot differentiate between what's happening on screen and what's happening in reality, mentally it is exactly the same as having sex with someone else. So if a person agrees not to have sex with anyone else, not using porn really does fall in with that. That's why people become so incredibly protective of porn and why it's so incredibly hard to stop using even if a person isn't technically addicted. Because it feels like breaking up with a person. People become truly attached to porn.
I found someone who summarized the findings a bit more clearly about the particular mirror neuron study, basically we KNOW what mirror neurons are, where they are, and what they do. They found that when people are shown porn (as opposed to thinking of their own fantasy) the part of their brain that houses the mirror neurons lights up. It's not 100%, nothing in science is. But the study was repeated and published in a peer reviewed journal, and unless they somehow manage to undo all the studies on mirror neurons ever done, that is what it means. Anecdotally it all fits as well, from people who have stopped or are in the process of stopping for one reason or another.
Romance movies have no more effect on a person than any other hollywood movie intended to evoke emotion. But I've never heard of a relationship being destroyed by chick flicks, I've never heard of anyone being addicted to it, and short of jealousy over hot actors I've never heard of anyone having problems with "emotional cheating" as a result of a movie. I think romance novels are fairly ridiculous and I've honestly seen women have their expectations completely warped by them. But what backing do you have to your claim? Further, the only thing chick flicks promise that could warp someone's expectations and reality is that a guy will love them and be nice to them. That's it. Besides, the emotion evoked in a movie like that isn't love, it's happiness. For the character. When you watch someone in a movie be sad or have something horribly sad happen to them, you don't feel sad because you feel it's happened to you, but because you've come to "know" the character and feel sorry for him or her. It's not emotional cheating if the woman doesn't believe the man is falling in love with her, if she doesn't feel loved, if she doesn't actually feel what's happening to the character happening to her. This would be a far more pronounced effect if she say, went to a friend's wedding, or watched someone perform some kind of romantic gesture in real life. Should she be banned from weddings or from hanging around with other couples too? And other than the fact that the hero of the movie is nice and loving, since you stated that appearances weren't your concern, I'm not exactly sure what there would be to feel "upstaged" by.
When a person watches porn, they don't just feel it, their brain honestly thinks it's happening. There are thousands upon thousands of studies showing the negative effects of porn on just about everyone, there is an enormous amount of anecdotal evidence, and most couples counselors think porn is always a bad influence, not to mention over half of all marriages and an enormous number of relationships that have ended due to it's effects. Other than because you want to be contrary, what evidence do you have? I state my opinion because there is backing to it. Not because I want it to be true or to argue, but because that is as close to the consensus as there can be in psychology.
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reader, anonymous, writes (3 May 2011): "Cerberus, you're continually trying to find lesser things to compare porn use to. Watching a movie with hot men being nice in it isn't even remotely comparable to seeking out a movie of hot women stripping, gyrating, and being, for lack of a better word, fucked, for the purpose of masturbating to it."
Lesser in your opinion, Person12345. Simple as that. To you everything is a lesser evil than porn. To me it's not, you can't say I'm wrong in my view and I can't say the same to you. We can however disagree. That is the beauty of life.
You keep going back to sexual arousal, that's not what I was talking about. I wasn't talking about a woman going to a romance movie to visually stimulate herself, put her hand down her knickers and flick the bean. I was talking about emotional stimulation, feeling warm inside at the romance on that screen, crying tears of joy when the two characters finally get together, you know emotional stimulation? Like the feeling you get when your partner looks into your eyes and tells you he loves you for the first time, or you open the fridge to find a bar of your favourite chocolate wrapped in bow for no reason at all but your partner wanted to give you a token of your meaning to them that morning. That kind of romantic emotion, not sexual at all.
The same kind of warm feeling you got from your partners confession of undying love is the same feeling (although not to the same degree) that you get from seeing those two characters you've connected with through the course of a romantic movie do the same thing. See? So using your 'porn is sex too, you get sexually stimulated therefore it is cheating' logic, then getting that warm fuzzy feeling inside watching two people fall in love, is emotional cheating.
You seem to put porn as an issue over romance movies implies sex is more important to you than romance and emotions. Or perhaps that because you like romantic movies the same shouldn't apply to those based on your taste. If you think watching sex has far more meaning to it than watching two people fall in love then that's your choice. Personally I don't separate the two, although I can in fact have sex without the love and romance. So in that sense it is less important than emotional fulfillment to me.
You see person12345. If I was to let another woman get me off sexually in person then that is cheating, we can agree on that. So you've applied that logic to porn because we get sexual satisfaction from that too. Now if I was to let another woman speak to me lovingly, hold me and stir up romantic feelings in me in person (on the phone etc.), give me that same warm feeling of romance that I get from my girlfriend. Then that is emotional cheating isn't it? So how then is getting that emotion from a movie any different when applying your porn logic to it? As I see it, it only is because you say it is. Because your 'porn is cheating' logic doesn't hold up to that kind of comparison because in your view it doesn't. But that then is an illogical argument, isn't it? It's simply applying a logic to something, to suit what you want it to. But that very same logic applied to something else comparatively as important to a successful relationship, doesn't work. Even though the conditions are the exact same, only your opinion is different.
If you want to be the only source of my sexual stimulation for the rest of our relationship then I want to be the only source of your emotional stimulation. Fair is fair right? And I'm not asking you whether you think romantic movies are less evil, lets just assume that I think they are. Because you don't think they're a serious issue then you face the exact same situation that I do with porn when you discuss it. You see a major issue with it, I don't, but you then take the position where you must be correct. No compromise. So when I take the very same position as you but on the issue of emotions, you cast it down as lesser and foolish because to you it's not a big deal, that is the exact same way I react to your porn views isn't it?
You see the difference in severity is only really relative to our points of view. You hold sex as being more sacred than romantic emotions, I see it as less important. To you a romance movie isn't bad because it's not sex, you have no problem at all letting another guy on screen romantically woo you. You have no problem immersing yourself emotionally in an on screen romantic fantasy with another guy, yet if your guy does the same thing in a sexual context, that's a too much for you.
There is no logic in what you say if it only applies to porn based on your specific view of it.
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reader, dirtball +, writes (2 May 2011):
I think you missed my point with the chips, it was to demonstrate the slippery slope of your argument, not to equate it. Of course eating chips being cheating is a ridiculous concept, but in the statement I quoted, I just replaced porn with chips. Just because it's agreed upon that it won't be part of the relationship doesn't make using it cheating. It makes it disrespectful, destroys trust, etc. But while similar emotions may be experienced by the party who feels betrayed, it is not cheating. At least not by the definition I use.
Ultimately, that's the problem with this question. Who's definition of cheating are we using? What does it mean to cheat? To me, and open relationship is cheating, but to others it's perfectly acceptable. That's why it's so important that people address these issues in their relationships.
With regard to the neurotransmitters, they weren't measured at all. Interesting. Comparing fMRI's makes sense for what they were trying to learn I suppose. So, since having an orgasm with a partner causes the same reaction as an orgasm achieved while masturbating to porn, and both of these resemble the activity in the brain of taking a hit of cocaine, what does that tell you? It doesn't tell me they are the same. It tells me that the arousal in the brain is similar, but it's possible that the arousal we see in the fMRI could also be due to a factor we are unaware of. With all science, what's considered the standard now, will be laughed at in the years to come. After all, people used to think the sun revolved around the Earth.
Still, at least they are looking into it. Perhaps there will be a breakthrough someday, and that will never happen if people give up. I just think that because people are involved, the answer to the question of "is pornography cheating" will always be subjective. It's simply human nature.
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reader, person12345 +, writes (2 May 2011):
person12345 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionDirtball they use something called fMRI (functional magnetic resonance imaging) to watch how the brain reacts on top of measuring the release of hormones and chemicals. It's been known for some time now that orgasm, especially orgasming to porn, produces nearly the exact same response in a person's brain as taking a hit of cocaine. Some things we don't know about the brain, but many things, like how it reacts to certain stimuli, we do. This is not something that is controversial or new in the scientific community, nor is it really being debated. Even hardcore pro-porn people acknowledge this fact. This is an extremely well-researched area. People are fascinated by sex and orgasm. They can view how the brain responds. They may not know exactly why something is responding in the brain, but they can see that it is and compare it to the way the brain responds to other stimuli. In this case, they can compare masturbating, masturbating to porn, taking a hit of cocaine, and having sex with another person and compare them. They can tell what's similar to what.
Chips are entirely different from porn because there is nothing sexual about potato chips. Porn is extremely sexual, and it's most definitely outside the relationship. Cheating generally only encompasses sexual things (unless the relationship is based on different things). Lots of studies have shown mainstream Hollywood movies and gotten an immensely different response (no or little arousal). The study I used did use "regular" mainstream movies as a control (some kind of popular comedy film, they didn't give a title, but almost all Hollywood films are full of cleavage, some kind of lingerie or stripping scene, and lots of male gaze shots panning over a woman's body). Masturbating to porn versus watching nudity in a movie are extremely different, one you're not masturbating to the movie. Two, you're not seeking it out for arousal. Three, the vast majority of porn today is far more than nudity. Compared to porn today, mainstream movie nudity is closer to a G-rated animation.
Cerberus, you're continually trying to find lesser things to compare porn use to. Watching a movie with hot men being nice in it isn't even remotely comparable to seeking out a movie of hot women stripping, gyrating, and being, for lack of a better word, fucked, for the purpose of masturbating to it. The only way they are similar is that one is the kiddie version. The only thing comparable to a man seeking out porn of hot women doing his bidding is a woman seeking out porn of hot men hung like donkeys with six packs. Since you seem so angry about this issue of women watching romantic comedies with men in them (it seems to be the only "comparison" you ever make) and since many men seem to make this comparison, it leads me to believe that most men expect a stricter mental monogamy from their partner than they would be willing to give or that when women fantasize it's much worse than when men do it. Using porn involved purposefully going out of your way to seek out hot women, dissect their naked bodies with your mind, and masturbate to them. If a woman goes to a movie with a hot man in it, he's unlikely to be naked and if he is it won't be more than a shirtless scene. If she wants to get sexual pleasure out of it, she'll have to remember the image, fantasize about it herself and wait until she gets somewhere private. There is nothing different about her going to a romantic movie than a man going to see any action movie, where there is some badass woman with huge breasts, revealing skin tight clothes, who fits the exact stereotype of a 14 year old boy's fantasy. Those are comparable, not porn and Hollywood movies. As well in pretty much every movie, regardless of genre, for every semi-clothed man there tend to be at least 5 scantily clad hot women scattered around as props, including movies aimed at women, at children, and at any audience you can think of. The last trailer I saw for a chick flick was basically non-stop panning over a hot blond in skintight outfits, a scene of her stripping in lingerie and platform heels, and one or two shots of some fully clothed guy. The last drama aimed at women I saw featured several scenes of the female lead graphically masturbating while the camera scanned over her sweaty writhing body focusing on her mouth and breasts. Did I mention this was a movie for women? The guy I was with awkwardly turned away from me and crossed his legs it was so pornographic. I have yet to see a similar depiction of a man in a movie. The idea that it's women who go to movies to be aroused is laughable. There is very little similarity between a woman going to see a movie that might contain one tiny scene of partial nudity to a man seeking out and privately masturbating to porn. If watching movies where there's a romantic plot is emotional cheating and you'd want your partner to stop, then you'd be a hypocrite if you didn't also stop going to movies.
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reader, anonymous, writes (2 May 2011): If porn is considered sexual cheating then romance movies are emotional cheating. I'll give up using using porn for sexual purposes, if you give up romance movies for emotional purposes. You don't want me being sexually aroused by another woman in porn then I don't want you emotionally touched by another guy in a romance movie.
That's fair to me.
Porn gives guys unrealistic expectations of sex and women, then romance movies gives women unrealistic expectations about romance and men. Porn makes women insecure because they'll never perform the variety of sex acts or look like those 'perfect bodied' women, then romance movies make men insecure because we'll never be as perfectly romantic or emotionally attentive as those 'perfect bodied' men.
You don't want me sexually fantasizing about a woman in a porn movie, I don't want you emotionally fantasizing about a guy in a romance movie.
Lets see how the usual porn discussion goes when reversed.
Guy - "I really hate romance movies, I'll never have the body those guys have, I'll never be as perfect as them."
Girl - "Baby I never compare you to those guys, all they are is a quick emotional release, it makes me feel powerful emotions and I enjoy watching them. I love you and don't want anyone else."
Guy - "If you don't want anyone else then why do you need your emotions stirred by these guys, am I not enough for you emotionally?"
Girl - "Of course you are baby, I just like to see other guys being romantic with other girls sometimes, it means nothing I don't even think about them once the movie is over."
Guy - "Well if it means nothing then you'll stop, because you watching other guys be romantic and getting an emotional fix from that really hurts me."
Girl - "Why? It's just a romance movie, all the other girls watch them and I've watched them pretty much all my life. I don't attach any significance to them at all. It's just nice to have my emotions stirred every now and again by the guys in those movies, I don't want those guys I love you."
Guy - "Well if that's all it means to you then you'll stop, if it's not important and you love me then you'll stop watching them for me. Because they really hurt me."
Girl - "But I've watched romance movies since before I got with you, why are you only telling me now?"
Guy - "Because I assumed once you were with me and in love with me you wouldn't need those movies anymore and that I'd be enough for you."
Girl - "You are enough for me, it's not like that at all. Baby those movies aren't important at all, those guys mean nothing to me. I just don't see how this hurts you so much when for me it means absolutely nothing."
Guy - "Okay then baby so your going to give up watching it for me then?"
Girl - "Why can't you see they mean nothing. I could give them up but I like them, I've enjoyed watching them a long time baby, why do you want me to give up something I like? Especially when they're harmless. Do I not emotionally fulfill you? Has me ever watching romance movies ever effected our emotional life? Have I ever compared you those guys or placed expectations you because of that? Have I ever demanded you be like them or behave the way they do? No, so baby there really isn't a problem is there? Me watching those movies hasn't had any negative effect on our relationship at all, the only problem is the one you're making out of it."
Guy - "It doesn't matter. I can't help how I feel about them and if you loved me you'd stop. I hate romance movies, they're disgusting and vile, the men in it are all so perfect and they do things no guy could ever match up to. I hate it and that's it. I'm not willing to compromise on the issue because to me it's emotional cheating. I should be the only guy in your life that gives you those kind of emotions."
Girl - "They're not real, they're not real men in that movie they're characters, they don't exist."
Guy - "They are real, they are doing real romantic gestures, they're real men portraying real emotions. He just gave her a rose, that rose is real. They just kissed, that was a real kiss. It really hurts that you look at other men that way. I should be the only guy that you get those kind of emotions from."
Girl - "You are the only guy, the emotions I get from those movies are nothing compared to what I get from you. They don't compare, they're just nice to watch, they mean nothing."
Guy - "So you have to stop then because the thought of you looking at other guys that way is too much for me and if you don't stop then I'll have to rethink this entire thing. I thought you loved me but obviously I'm just not good enough for you to not want to get emotionally touched by other guys. You're emotionally cheating on me with the guys in those movies. If you don't need that then you'll stop. I would prefer it if you used your imagination to emotionally fantasize about real men in your life. I don't mind you fantasizing about romance with my brother, I just don't want you watching those movies."
Girl - "Okay baby, that's perfectly logical. Next time your brother says something nice to me, I'll fantasize about him being romantic with me instead. The next time I meet a really nice guy, I'll use him as inspiration for my romantic fantasies then."
Guy - "Oh and I don't just want you to stop watching romantic movies, I don't want you looking at pictures of two people kissing in the sunset either, or reading storied in books about romance. I want you to have no emotional fulfillment apart from me, do you understand or my insecurity will just flare up again and I won't ever be able to trust you."
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reader, dirtball +, writes (2 May 2011):
Which neurotransmitters are you referring to when you equate porn use with Cocaine? My guess would be Dopamine, and I'm sorry, but unless it's something else, this is ridiculous. Dopamine is present in 90% of the brain. It's what your brain releases when it wants you to feel pleasure. That means ANY pleasurable experience will "look the same" depending on how you look at it. That's the problem with neuroscience. We still don't know very much about the brain. Sure, we're getting more information using FMRI's and the like, but we're still at the theory and conjecture stage. For example, less than 30 years ago we could only find one thing that worked on the CB1 receptor in the brain, cannabis. Later they found the natural occuring version in the brain. Much of our brain is still a mystery. We have a good idea of what's going on, but we still have a long way to go before any definitive evidence is presented. Using this argument I can say rollercoasters are like cocaine, or riding my bike is the same as cocaine. ANY pleasurable activity will be the "same as cocaine" by these criteria.
"So if a couple decides at the beginning of the relationship to agree that porn will stay out of the relationship, without any further explanation and without the rest of this article, using porn is cheating." Really? So, using this EXACT same argument. If a couple agrees that potato chips will stay out of their relationship, and one partner eats some, then that's cheating. I use a ridiculous example to illustrate my point. Acting on something that has been discussed as out of order for your relationship is disrespectful, absolutely, it may also be a deal breaker for the relationship, but to call it cheating is stupid to me. How slippery do you want to make the "cheating" slope? We can fit it to our needs however we want, but that doesn't mean we SHOULD. Porn is viewed as cheating because it involves images or verbage of other people and sex and is often used for sexual release. That adds all the emotions of sex to the equation. However it's the same as seeing nudity in a non porn, or even a very erotic scene that causes a similar arrousal in the viewer. Did the study you reference in regard to people viewing porn and it affecting the brain the same as having sex show people erotic non-porn as well and measure the response? I'm guessing it didn't, because if they had, I'm reasonably certain they would have seen a similar neurological response to the porn model.
Honestly, I agree that porn can be a problem in relationships. I also know for a fact that it can be something fun couples do together and can both enjoy. Does that make people in a committed relationship to each other, who enjoy porn together or apart from each other, cheaters? I think we'd agree that it doesn't, because it's been discussed and is ok in that context. The same as swingers may not consider sex outside the relationship cheating, some don't think porn is either. That's why communication about the subject is so important. If it's something you can't deal with, then you need to tell your partner that. Being up front and honest about it from the get go is SOOOO important. Another sad thing is that many people, when faced with this information, will simply lie, rather than be honest and perhaps walk away. This is not right, and that's where many problems on this subject come from, lies. Lies violate trust, and without trust, a relationship cannot survive.
As for the education, I couldn't agree more. I hear more and more stories about the things kids are doing and I get really worried. I feel like it wasn't that long ago that I was a kid, and playing truth or dare and what not. The thing is, kisses were about the extent of our dares, where now it's oral sex and more (talking early teens 13-15). Porn can definitely warp someone's sense of sexuality, so children watching it and using it as the standard of normal is highly troubling to me. I don't know where it should be taught, but I believe that parents should be at the forefront of this. Sex education has always been lacking, and that's due to many reasons, but the biggest is usually political agendas. Look what abstinance education got for Bristol Palin... I often wish people lived in reality versus the world they wish existed. Too bad people prefer their self delusions and running away over confronting a problem. Then the few who speak up are run off for rocking the boat, instead of having the influence they should. Fucking sheeple.
"Is pornography cheating?" Not to me. It doesn't meet MY criteria for cheating. Since we're all individuals, it always will come back to how each individual defines "cheating." That's why this needs to be discussed in a relationship.
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reader, GeeGee255 +, writes (2 May 2011):
 Let me clarify, I doubt the school administrators would find it an appropriate subject for their curriculum. Even with the high rate of teenage pregnancy we currently have many schools still refuse to teach anything as you say other than abstinence, which we both agree is worthless.
And unlike the dangers of too much porn, the costs of teenage pregnancy to our society can actually be seen, calculated, weighed and measured.
Lastly, I also agree that left unchecked, it is probably only going to get worse over time, but until porn starts killing people (emotionallY) on a massive scale and negatively effects their enrollment, drop-out rate and bottom line, budget wise, I don't see porn 101 coming to a school near you anytime soon...
Conversly, for the record, I have 3 teenage boys of my own and have had many discussion with them on this topic and yes it's dangers when misused and/or abused. How many other parents out there are doing the same thing for their own kids?? Not enough, I am sure.
So please don't think I entirely dissagree with you, I'm just not sure what you want us to do with the information you have very intelligently provided...
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reader, person12345 +, writes (2 May 2011):
person12345 is verified as being by the original poster of the question"It's not an appropriate subject"
If absolutely everyone with internet access has looked at least a few times, it doesn't matter if it's appropriate or not. Talking about venereal disease is appropriate, but porn isn't despite impacting almost 100% of people? Sex education in school, for lack of a better word, sucks. It's completely failing children. They teach them about horrible diseases, pregnancy, abstinence, but they avoid anything useful. In fact they are spreading downright lies about condoms with new abstinence only education, such as that condoms don't protect you from anything. Adolescents want to see how sex works, they want to see what adult bodies look like, they want to know what's going on. When parents run around trying to scare children away from real depictions of sex and refuse to talk about it, then adolescents have nowhere else to turn but porn. And porn is warped, twisted, and fake. But without any sort of a better idea, how can they know what's a healthy sexual relationship? How can they know how sex works? How can they know that's not how most people look naked? The average penis size is 5.8 inches erect compared to 8 inches in porn. 85% of porn actresses have breast implants. There has never been a mainstream porn centerfold that hasn't been highly airbrushed. Adolescents need access not to porn, but to real talks about the mechanics of sex, healthy sexuality, etc... They need to know about safe sex, but the conversation can't stop there. Parents think by avoiding talking about sex they can force their children into abstinence, but it doesn't work like that. In fact, it's the opposite. By making it so forbidden, they up the curiosity and up the thrill of it.
People said a lot of the same things about cigarettes. It's not harmful, you have no proof, people like it, they'll never go away, education won't help anything you just want to ban them, etc... The "battle" over educating people and warning them about how dangerous cigarettes are lasted over 50 years. But in the end, without banning them, a campaign was able to get people to realize they were using a risky substance and that it can have bad effects. A person is far more likely to become addicted to porn than develop complications from smoking, but it's never mentioned. People accept that herion, cocaine, meth, etc... is bad for them, but despite the vast majority of studies showing that regular porn use will rewire your brain and can destroy your relationships, no one is willing to accept it. Why? Because people like it, same reason people didn't want to accept that smoking was harmful. People like smoking. People like porn. Doesn't change the fact that they have the potential to be extremely harmful.
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reader, GeeGee255 +, writes (1 May 2011):
So if as you say you don't want porn banned, and moderation is A. not working or B. good enough, then what do you suggest other than educating young people about the dangers?
For that matter, how would you even go about providing this education to them? Who would/should teach it?
Schools? Parents? The internet?
Sorry I just can't see that happening. It's not an appropriate subject, so no school will touch it. And most parents can barely speak to their kids about the bird and the bees, let alone about how much and which types of porn is good/bad for them...
As for the internet, well some may look for help there after it has all ready become a major problem for them, but after a few minutes they'd probably just end up getting distracted by all the free porn and give up.
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reader, lovebird1 +, writes (1 May 2011):
Dear OP,
Please understand that I feel for you, and my rather angry post is nothing personal, but I need to get this off my chest. It's rather my opinion about the subject in general than about your specific case.
I'd be devastated if a person would try to control what I watch or read to the degree where I have to justify the content on my computer or bookshelf. Unless of course it's something illegal.
To me, love and loyalty means that you make compromises for each other but also want to make each other happy.
If you girls love your guys, then why don't you let them be themselves and make them hide their porn movies and act like prudes? Do you tell them all of your erotic daydreams? Do you let your bf's control what books you read or songs you listen to? If yes, that's sad.
If your guy watches porn, well, why not watch some nicely made porn yourselves and maybe share your thoughts on it? Why not allow yourself what your boyfriends allow themselves? Why not buy yourselves some nice vibrators and play with it and celebrate your sexual desire without your partner for once? Why so dependent on their approval or their desire to sleep with you? It sounds so self conscious, you know. Sounds like you girls have to make sure your guys don't ever see any other pretty girl naked so he can't compare. That's lame. If he loves you he'll notice other beauties but still prefer you above them all. And if he doesn't then your censure can't change it anyway.
Give each other some space!!
This all surely sounds like I'm just a horny pro-porn crazy, but really, to me this is about a general aspect of what you expect out of a relationship.
Controlling your partner isn't cool.
You can't make sure a person will love you or won't leave you by controlling them.
Yep, that's that. Rant finished.
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reader, person12345 +, writes (1 May 2011):
person12345 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionMen and women are not that different. They are far more similar than they are different (a meta analysis found that over 95% of studies out of several thousand on psychological differences found no significant difference). However, there were large differences in people's stereotypes and what people felt they were entitled to. For instance, women regardless of what feelings they expressed about what they were looking at became as aroused as the men in the study. Men and women react the same to porn.The idea that sex should be emotionless and purely physical is strongly connected with porn use. In a study of over 2,000 men in Denmark, there was an incredibly strong relationship between viewing porn and believing sex was a purely physical recreational activity and that you don't need to like someone to have sex with them.Also, it's incredibly condescending that you would claim that simply because you are male and you like porn, it cannot be cheating and women need to get over it. I'm always amazed when people continue to insist women need to grit their teeth and deal with it since it's harmless, when over 50% of divorces cite this as a major cause, countless relationships have ended, plastic surgery rates especially genital surgery are increasing dramatically (which plastic surgeons and patrons clearly attribute to porn), female body image is plummeting, over 2,000 questions on this site alone are about the immense pain it causes, and yet it's harmless simply because men say it is? What about the majority of women who say it isn't (a majority of women hate the idea of it in their relationships and many who will allow it still feel hurt)? Or do they not get a say because they're women?I fairly clearly stated in my article that fantasy and porn are COMPLETELY different. People behave completely differently when they fantasize from when they look at porn. I never ask about whether my boyfriend has thought about my friends naked and don't give it a second thought. Why? Because I assume he has, which is fine. Everyone thinks about and fantasizes about others occasionally. There are worlds of difference between creating a fantasy in our heads and looking at porn. Brain scans show this too. People don't bond with head fantasies or become addicted to head fantasies (at least not to any widespread extent) because our brains don't interpret that as even remotely real. But we interpret visuals as complete reality. Our brains cannot differentiate between fantasy and reality on screen. When you look at people's brains when they masturbate to porn, they light up in the same way as when they have sex with another person. When a person masturbates without porn, it lights up a completely different way. Fantasy and porn are entirely different. People respond to the two in entirely different ways.Also I feel this needs saying, the more porn you look at, the more you'll want and the more sex a person will feel they "need." Viewing pornography increases production of testosterone in both genders, causing increased libido, increased aggression, and an increase in the feeling that it's OK to do anything, including hurt someone, to satisfy that urge. Usually one of the first things people notice when they cut out porn is that their libido is actually not even close to as high as they thought it was, it was simply the habit of using porn.And I never said it should be banned. But the extremes are becoming so common and the problems it's causing are becoming so prevalent that people need to be educated at a young age about the harms it can cause, especially to their future relationships and how it will warp their expectations. There was a question on here awhile back that I will never forget from a girl who wanted to have sex for the first time. When he saw her naked for the first time, he became disgusted and said, "wow you don't look anything like the girls in porn." It's also becoming common for a man to, without asking, pull out and ejaculate over a woman's face the first time they have sex simply because it's what they think is normal.
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reader, GeeGee255 +, writes (1 May 2011):
For young boys porn can become a problem because like the OP said it can cause them to get sexually stuck to the point where they can only achieve orgasm with a specific image, or under specific conditions that they cannot duplicate with a real live woman. Porn should be a compliment to a full well rounded sex life, not a substitute for having one. (dry spells excluded).
It can also become addictive for some mature men to the point where they would rather jerk off to porn exclusively than have sex with their spouse or partner. Which leaves the woman feeling rejected and unsatisfied.
Short of those extremes, I personally don't have a problem with porn or my partner fantasizing about someone else occasionally. As with all things in life it is a matter of moderation. The potential for abuse is not a good enough reason to ban it outright for everyone.
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reader, anonymous, writes (1 May 2011): Sorry I didn't finish this paragraph - "If I haven't had sex in days and I haven't had a wank then my mind will take over, my frustrations will start finding the women I see around me as sexy. I can't help that. You ask any single guy how hot women look while single and how often they mentally undress the women around them, and if he's single long enough and the frustration builds then pretty much all women look sexy."
Next time you haven't had sex with your "no-porn" boyfriend in a few days to a week, no sexual activity or satisfaction for whatever reason. Just remember that the women around will just start looking sexier, he will notice them more and they will start enter his fantasies. The exact same thing happens to women. The women I know, will always prefer that their boyfriend uses porn, they know he needs to be satisfied and they know if they don't do it his mind will start to wander. Porn is far less a threat to them that a girl he works with, or their sister.
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reader, anonymous, writes (1 May 2011): Let me ask you this person12345. If porn is cheating then isn't mentally undressing a waitress you just saw cheating too? Isn't using your sister as inspiration for a wank because she was wearing a low cut top today and her boobs were on show and looking pretty nice cheating too?
What you don't seem to get person12345 is there is pretty much no chance that your boyfriend or any guy is going to spend the rest of his life only ever thinking about one woman in his fantasies, no chance of that at all. Just like the same applies to a lot of women. So what's the difference then? In your logic having a fantasy about anyone else at all is cheating then we're all cheaters. Or does that only apply if they're actually having sex on screen and why does that not apply to sex scenes in movies, or if we create a personal fantasy in our minds of having sex with other people? because mentally I've had sex with millions of women throughout my life, it's amazing I never got a mental STD.
You'd rather we used real life women that we know instead? like your sister, your friend, some girl we just saw at the beach while we were with you? You don't mind that then?
Okay then if porn is cheating of the mind, then me catching a glimpse down your sisters top when she was bending over to pick something up is me mentally molesting her then, even if it was unintentional but for a second my mind thought "yum"? That's pretty much a crime and I should be arrested. In your logic me imagining having sex with a woman I know would never consent to having sex with me is mental rape then I should be arrested for that too. Yeah that makes sense.
I just don't get how that seems better to you? The idea that your guy is having a wank at the thought of your sisters breasts, or that he is using Jessica Alba as inspiration or that he may pick up one of your women's magazines and use a bikini pictures article to do it instead.
Fine then get him to stop, let him use your sister as inspiration instead or a sex scene from a non-porn movie such as Basic Instinct. That's fine, no problem there, there is plenty of other ways to get inspiration for a wank. But at the end of the day person12345 the issue that women want solved above all is that they want to be the only person that ever comes into their guys mind when they think of sexual things, when they have fantasies. All porn is, is a quantifiable, concrete thing that they can see and compare themselves to, a lot of the time negatively.
You see what women don't get is that taking away porn doesn't mean that they will only ever think of you for the rest of their lives when they're masturbating, it just means we don't have porn to make that quick and emotionless. Instead we have to think of someone in real life and sit down prepare ourselves, instead of looking at a couple having sex, we have to imagine ourselves slowly undressing your sister, taking off that blouse she wore today, imagine her gasps for breath as we touch the sweet spot and imagine her naked flesh and all the things we're doing to her until we pop off, which will take longer than it would for porn. We have to make those fantasies far more real than porn because we have to make it up ourselves.
Fine, you don't want porn then that's cool. I'm going to wank about your sister instead because I caught a glimpse of her boobs and they looked great in that top, whether you think she's hotter than you and you want to compare her to you or get angry or jealous is none of my concern because you'll never know about it and there is no way in hell a guy would ever admit to having had a wank with your sister as inspiration.
You see instead of all that hassle, I put on a porn vid, some faceless nameless person, no emotion, 30 second to a minute and finished. I've had my release, I can go about my day without thinking about sex, I feel no need to view other women in any kind of sexual way because my testosterone levels have been adjusted, I've had my release and I love my girlfriend anyway. If I haven't had sex in days and I haven't had a wank then my mind will take over, my frustrations will start finding the women I see around me as sexy. I can't help that. You ask any single guy how hot women look while single and how often they mentally undress the women around them, and if he's single long enough and the frustration builds then pretty much all women look sexy.
So my question to you is this. If porn is so bad then why is fantasy about other women okay? We've all done it OP, we've all had fantasies about others or at least looked another person and thought they were hot. What's the difference between that and porn? Because if it's only that porn is a video of people having sex and the fantasy you have in your head is just a fantasy then how is that mental fantasy any less dangerous? In fact wouldn't viewing your sister as a sexual being be far more of a dangerous and upsetting prospect. I would have thought so.
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reader, MyButtHurts +, writes (1 May 2011):
Attention all women: Porn is NOT cheating. Men ARE different from women. I know you've all been brainwashed by our PC society but men do completely separate love from sex. It's just physical. Get over it!
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reader, HappyPlace +, writes (1 May 2011):
Yes, it is cheating of the mind. When my bf ejaculated over a photo of a well known bimbo, who really cannot string a sentence together, I was devastated. You may as well have punched me in the gut, I felt so bad. So, I'm continully on this site, checking for other people's answers in trying to justify my own feelings. But hell, I feel the way I feel and nothing will change that perspective! Ladies value intimacy of the mind also so if a man's mind is elsewhere, it feels horrible. I also don't agree that it is just a masturbation tool. Use your imagination. The images leave an imprint on the mind, which I believe men can recall whenever they want. They've tried to say in these forums that they look at the act and want to do it with their partner - Rubbish!! Porn is the polar opposite of making love so any guy who thinks he can get hints and tips from porn is a JOKE!!Does my bf imagine his porn bimbo when making love with me?? - probably. Does that hurt - OH YES!! Sometimes I try and make eye contact but his eyes are so tightly shut, that I believe he is thinking of someone else to get himself horny! The intimacy in our relationship is slowly being chiselled away because I have these thoughts and when I try to talk to him about it, he shuts down and will not, or can not communicate. So this rubbish has been hanging about like a third party lover in our relationship for over 5 years!!! I think one of the male agony aunts had written that he and has girlfriend like to send each other links of porn they would like. I'm still trying to figure out whether this girlfriend is a fantasy one in his head, as I cannot believe any woman would look up things which she thinks her bf would like in order to send porn images to him. If she does, then I imagine her to be a bit of an air head with no thoughts about the bigger picture and the consequences of her actions!!
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