A
male
age
41-50,
Cupid Boy
writes:So from all the porn questions and answers on here, it seems many women think a guy's lying about his porn use and hiding it are actually WORSE than the porn itself. They cannot understand why anyone would lie about something like that and go behind their back. They ask why doesn't he just come out and be honest, why do it furtively, in secret, instead of sharing?Is it really so hard to understand?? You may not realize that many guys do feel guilty about their sex drive, having been taught that it was something dirty to be hidden away from the world. So that's what they did with it. Sex drive is governed by testosterone and males have FIFTY TIMES more of it than females. Women cannot conceive of what that is like. It can be a great source of shame, a darkness you do not want anyone to see, for if they did you would be labelled a pervert. A woman who surfs for porn and uses her vibrator daily is "liberated" and "empowered". A guy who does similar is just a pig. Unlike a woman, a guy faces dire consequences and embarrassment if his "normal" behaviour ever comes out. Women, you cannot expect a guy to feel as honest and open about this as you think you would be if you were him.To put it another way... maybe you've felt emotionally empty before and tried to comfort yourself by consuming a whole tub of ice cream (or bottle of wine, if you prefer). While it may have been what you needed to do at that moment, did you feel proud of it? Were you eager for your partner to know about it? If he walked in on you, would you not feel really self-conscious? If questioned directly ("What happened to all the ice cream?") would you be tempted to lie and say that guests came over earlier and ate it? Do you see gorging on ice cream as something you'd be more comfortable doing alone than with someone else? Would your weakness for ice cream necessarily mean you've grown sick and tired of your partner's cooking? If you did it repeatedly, would you hide evidence by throwing away empty cartons before your partner came home? If your partner said he was ok with your bingeing, would you still be uncomfortable doing it in front of him? Would you read studies like this and think that women are just wired differently, which somehow makes it more acceptable?:http://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/pubaf/pr/PR_display.asp?prID=876Of course food and porn are different things. But the complex love-hate relationships people have with them may be similar. Following is a quote from a UK study on weight loss (that almost reads like a study on porn):"Women sabotage their healthy eating plans with secret eating. Around 36% of those surveyed admitted to secret eating. The phenomenon of secret eating apparently takes many forms, including behaviors like hiding food, eating in the dark, visiting fast-food outlets to hide eating from friends and family, and using the recession as an excuse to eat cheap calorie-dense foods like pizza and fries. Secret eating takes place on a weekly basis for one in six while one in ten admit to secret eating as often as every two or three days ... Secret eating leads to lies – with more than half of those surveyed saying they have lied to their husbands, mothers, and friends about what they have eaten. Secret eating also leads to guilt – eight in ten feel bad about eating unhealthy foods and some even throw food away to avoid tempation ... Many believed themselves addicted to their comfort food."Sound familiar? Does this make it any easier to see why porn is often shrouded in secrecy? Even an occasional porn user doesn't want to risk being seen as a "filthy pervert" any more than an occasional overeater wants to be called a "big fat pig". For some reason, female porn fans seem less secretive and ashamed of it than male users... while males feel less guilty about bingeing on food than many women. But I'd think everyone could relate to the feeling of wanting to indulge once in a while but not wanting anyone else to know about it.Women, would you really prefer a guy who was so "confident" and cared so little about disappointing you that he wouldn't even put in the effort to erase his browsing history? Women think that lying and keeping secrets is evidence of a big problem. But it could just as well be evidence of not wanting to jeopardize the relationship. It's really the proud porn users who leave their stuff out in the open and no longer care what others think who are the most depraved, IMO.Earlier this month, a woman killed her husband after finding one porn video in their apartment. So another reason guys hide has to be fear of overreactions. :-S But even if you are totally accepting of things like porn, he may STILL feel guilty, same as a girl might for eating something fatty, for reasons she cannot explain. Guilty pleasures are called that for a reason.Sorry this got so long! So why is hiding porn and lying about it so much worse than the porn itself? And why is the tendency to lie and hide so difficult for girls to understand??
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reader, Cupid Boy +, writes (24 October 2010):
Cupid Boy is verified as being by the original poster of the question "I've never, ever, talked to a woman or surveyed a woman who doesn't describe some kind of sting, hurt, betrayal, or some kind of negative reaction when she thinks about her partner using porn or finds it." -- In about ten minutes, I found a number of older posts on this site by women who weren't at all bothered or threatened by porn. They may be the minority but you shouldn't presume to speak for them any more than one guy should speak for all men by claiming that all guys watch porn.
Couple of side notes... It's kind of interesting how wives have always complained about guys nagging them for sex and only wanting one thing, so much it's become a cliche; but now that porn is freely available they instead complain when the guy DOESN'T want it from her constantly since he's getting his needs partially met through other means. Probably there's more than a few women who make no effort to satisfy their partner yet at the same time don't want him being satisfied by anything else either. In another context (such as a husband who wouldn't give his wife any money but also forbade her from working), this would be seen as controlling.
The feminists did a complete reversal as well, having first predicted that porn would turn men into raving sex maniacs and rapists. When that didn't happen (in fact porn had the OPPOSITE effect), now they complain it reduces men's desire for real women. Even if it did, why would that be so bad considering men's longstanding reputation as sex-obsessed horndogs (which I never believed but apparently there are enough guys like that out there to make women believe it)? If porn reduces their excessive appetites for real sex and average women, that may, from a certain perspective, be beneficial. Women, after all, do not desire average men, they mainly want the ones at the top (male equivalent of a "supermodel"). Lately I've been reading this "romance" novel to see things from the other side. The guy in it basically looks like a Calvin Klein underwear model, is spectacular in bed, and partway through the story the woman discovers that he is secretly a BILLIONAIRE. And they say porn sets unrealistic expectations.
Unfortunately for women threatened by porn, things will only get worse as technology gets better. We will have 3D videos, holograms, virtual reality, and computer-generated actresses that will make today's pornstars look terribly flawed by comparison. You cannot compete with that any more than I could compete with a billionaire underwear model. Not sure what to think of this high-tech, synthetic world that's coming except that it is inevitable and will make today's Internet porn look like scratchings on a cave wall.
Lastly, this month gave us more evidence for why porn is harmful (really, this should surprise no one. Diseases are just a natural result of that lifestyle):
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/10/13/2010-10-13_porn_star_tests_positive_for_hiv_wicked_pictures_and_vivid_entertainment_studios.html
A
female
reader, person12345  +, writes (18 October 2010):
 "I'm saying that, just as one spouse may have to go without sometimes, it's only fair for the other to put out for a quickie now and again."
I agree with this completely and get a lot of flack for saying it on other posts. If me or my partner (who is a man) are going through a "dry spell" in terms of libido, we both push ourselves to do something to satisfy the other person. I think that's one of the most important things couples can do to keep their relationship strong. This is a sacrifice occasionally, but it's an important one. Many people underestimate how important sex is to a bond. I do understand, really, how painful it is for anyone of any gender to feel constantly rejected for sex. It makes me cringe when I read posts from women who want to know how to get their partner's to masturbate more or who complain about a lack of commitment despite thinking twice a month is going to be enough, which just quite frankly, isn't in nearly all relationships. I think people do frequently get married, fall into a lull and just stop caring about the sex. Both genders. The woman just doesn't want to do it at all, the man doesn't want to work at making it fun for her (it's just a reality that women generally take more effort to please in bed than men) and it's a negative feedback loop. And while generally it's other things that deteriorate in the marriage, I bet sex (either lack of or lack of effort) is at the root of a lot of the fights and disconnects that make it happen. I think even women underestimate that connecting power of sex. Like when both people fall onto the bed (or countertop or floor or car or whatever) all gasping and satisfied, that right there is the cement in the relationship. Without that, especially in marriage, the relationship just really can't survive. There are incredibly intense bonding chemicals released during sex and orgasm, and they can make or break a relationship. I think it's a mistake for people to even start dating if they don't have that physical connection.
However, when it comes to taking the "easy way out" with porn, I think that is an enormous mistake and relationship suicide. Again it's a feedback loop. You don't want to get rejected again, because it hurts, so you keep using porn and wait for the problem to fix itself, but it doesn't. When someone uses porn, it takes away the motivation to put effort in. Because maintaining a good sex life can be difficult and porn is easy.
Furthermore, I've never, ever, talked to a woman or surveyed a woman who doesn't describe some kind of sting, hurt, betrayal, or some kind of negative reaction when she thinks about her partner using porn or finds it. Many will accept it, but at what cost? It causes many women to want to have sex with him less, because she feels emotionally hurt by it, and it causes him to want sex less because it's more difficult than porn and the gap just widens. The research on this is clear and repeated. The more one person, whether they are male or female, uses porn, the less satisfied they are with their partner, the less satisfied they are with the frequency of sex, and the less satisfied they are with the relationship in general (as a cause and effect study, not correlation). Does no one just talk about sex anymore? Because I personally can't imagine a situation where people are comfortable enough to have sex with each other, comfortable enough to be in a relationship, or comfortable enough to get married without being able to talk about sex (what happens if she gets pregnant, what are your fantasies, what do want to happen more, are you OK with the frequency of sex, etc...). Can't people just talk about it anymore? You think I don't understand sex drives, but I really do. I just think women's sex drives would be a lot higher if their partner's a) put more effort into making sure she enjoys sex more and b) watched less porn.
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reader, Odds +, writes (18 October 2010):
 My last reply appears to have been lost to the Ether of the Net. I'll try and replicate is as closely as I can recall.
@Person12345:
This thread is not about rape. It's not about abortion, it's not about the wage gap, it's not about objectification, it's not about the patriarchy. I disagree with you on every single one of those points, and would be happy to debate you elsewhere.
This thread is about decent husbands, who care about their wives, but are not getting sexed enough and are trying to figure out how to deal with it. None of these guys are rapists, oppressors, or cheaters (and if they are, that's independent of the topic).
We are both approaching how men and women think from completely different angles. See, I think men and women are drastically different in how we think, feel, and act. You seem to think there is no difference - at least regarding sex - while still somehow thinking men are bad and women aren't. Either way, as long as we're approaching the problem from those two angles, our arguments will fall on deaf ears.
Also, I'm well aware of when I'm saying something sexist, as is any literate person. Pointing it out serves no purpose. I'm more concerned with what's true than with what's sexist, which is why I choose to say it. Trying to shout down certain speech with charges of misogyny will only hurt people trying to fix their relationships.
On the other hand, I'm a little saddened at your attitude. You feel no desire to show sympathy to men who are having a problem - again, not rapists or cheaters or oppressors, just regular guys who are trying to do good and want a little more action. Guys who committed to a woman under the (apparently mistaken) belief that exclusivity implies some measure of availability.
I'm hardly advocating anyone be a sex slave. I'm saying that, just as one spouse may have to go without sometimes, it's only fair for the other to put out for a quickie now and again. A lot of guys have no idea how to turn their wives on, and assume it's a process entirely outside of their control; frigidity only reinforces that belief.
As I said, I agree that overusing porn is bad for one's relationships and personal life. So is lying to your spouse. It's just entirely unreasonable to get someone's commitment to love, protect, and provide, then cut them off from sexual satisfaction.
The kind of guy who won't cheat on his wife, ever, or use porn because it makes her uncomfortable, or think of her as an object meant to satisfy his urges - well, he's generally also the nice, provider-type, stable man who women are simply less sexually attracted to. And they're the ones most likely to suffer from sexual deprivation, and least responsible for any wrongdoing to any woman, ever. I'm not complaining about women's nature (it is what it is), I'm just saying that if the guy wants to whack off in private once in a while, it's probably best for everyone that his wife look the other way, whatever her feelings are.
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reader, person12345 +, writes (12 October 2010):
Yeah I read the article when it came out. When women aren't making $0.80 to every dollar men make, which is actually more like $.40 to the dollar when you factor in how much more of childcare and healthcare women usually have to pay, when women hold more than 2% of "executive" and high powered positions, when women aren't more harshly judged on their sexuality than men (even Odds mentions how much more virginity is valued in women than in men for no reason other than an attempt to make her sexuality his and his alone), when women's sexuality isn't viewed as a problematic broken view of men's, when women who cheat aren't judged as unnatural, conniving, and manipulative, compared to men who are just acting on natural impulses, when 1 in 6 women isn't raped, when women aren't required to be viewed as sexual objects in order to be "respected," and their objectification isn't used to sell other objects, when the majority of porn doesn't show an unrealistic and often violent portrayal of women's sexuality, when women's rape isn't a frequent plot of hollywood and our rape isn't a popular kind of pornography, and when the laws don't constantly fight over whether or not to take away women's control over their own reproduction, maybe I'd be more inclined to feel sympathetic for men not getting laid. So far the only problems I've really seen that are specific to men are that they feel they're treated unfairly in custody cases and they're convinced that most rape accusations are false or unfair. The only "problem" that has been presented here is that men aren't getting as much sex as they feel entitled to. Do you really think that after hundreds of interviews with both men and women, countless books and scientific articles, in depth studies of evolutionary psychology, talks with doctors, nurses, psychologists and therapists, I don't know what I'm talking about in terms of sexuality for both genders?
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reader, Cupid Boy +, writes (12 October 2010):
Cupid Boy is verified as being by the original poster of the questionSorry, person, but I have to second all of what Odds said. Especially this part: "The hold is disproportionately powerful over the guys who deserve it the least - guys who won't pressure her into it, who just want to be loved, who don't understand why being a stable, loving provider just isn't enough to get her engine running, guys who would never, ever cheat." Some are, tragically, driven to porn by their circumstances, after being told too many times through women's actions that the love and kindness they offer is worthless compared to another guy's aggressive arrogance. It is not simply a case of these guys choosing porn over women. They would gladly choose a real woman if only that option were open to them.Your posts have strong old-school feminist overtones and, like those feminist writers, use a similar kind of reasoning -- specious, theory-based arguments that seem almost logical on the surface but have no real bearing on reality, and show a lack of understanding of how men think. Many in the aging women's movement seem to think it's still 1970 and frame everything in those terms (women still being oppressed, no power of their own, victims of men, etc.) They cannot accept any notion of men now being the disadvantaged group or of women having it better than them. So all evidence pointing to this must be twisted around to fit into their increasingly outdated world view. Hence, statements like men belonging to "a more sexually privileged group" and "People are generally far more sympathetic to guys who aren't getting any than women," which are so obviously false to anyone in the real world that it's not even worth debating.You stated that women have less power in every single arena, including the sexual. Maybe you should read this:http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-end-of-men/8135/(And if you do, feel free to respond with a bunch of statistics and other "proof" showing why every line of it is wrong.)
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reader, person12345 +, writes (12 October 2010):
Just because a female virgin is desired, doesn't make it any less sexist. It's not desired for any natural reason, it is simply because men, being in a more sexually privileged group, feel they are more entitled to feel angry and jealous than women are. Basically by being in the more entitled group (we do live in a patriarchy pretty much everywhere on the planet) they want to have their cake and eat it too. Meaning they want to be able to have as much sex as they want, all the while they feel like their feelings of jealousy over previous partners is more legitimate than a woman's. It is extremely sexist for women to lose value simply because they have sex while men supposedly gain value from experience. Lots of women like the idea of a male virgin as well, because of a lower risk of STDs, because they know he's not comparing her to previous lovers, and because they know sex is something special with him.
Women do not want to cheat to humiliate men and trade up any more than men do it. Women cheat for the same reasons. The spread the seed theory is completely bogus, because a) it's been basically completely disproven by modern science (in that they've discovered there is no innate difference between genders in terms of desire to be monogamous. And mainly that when you factor in that when homo sapien evolved population density was so sparse that the odds of even running into other females let alone having the energy to seduce or rape her was very low. Plus the fact that randomly having sex with a woman has around a 2-4% chance of producing a baby, and then it's almost guaranteed that the next male she'd run into would kill the baby, as well as the fact that what we observe in other apes is that either they're monogamous or that not based on gender, the apes philander all over the place), b) it was originally based on nothing but the fact that they thought only men liked to cheat, and c) just because something is innate doesn't mean we should do it. Just because some people are hardwired to murder and rape and steal doesn't mean we should condone it. Women who cheat do not cheat to humiliate their husbands or to gain power. It's for the same reason men cheat, because something, either sex or an emotional devotion are missing. Yes, it's that simple. Even most men say that when you look at polls and surveys. The spread the seed argument is nothing but a really bad made-up excuse, and it has no backing whatsoever, other than men going, well I want it so it must be hardwired. I don't think the species would survive very long if men and women had evolved to want two completely different things from each other, unless of course the only way the species continued was because all men are hardwired to rape (which obviously isn't true). This natural desire for a male to avoid being cuckolded you mention several times has nothing to do with natural desire. It has to do with the fact that no one likes to be cheated on because it makes them feel inferior, like they've done something wrong, and it's embarrassing. Entitlement blinds make this feel like a male only problem to men.
You also basically say that women need to either put out at every demand or deal with porn. We can't win unless we literally become sex slaves. The "manipulation," by not being in the mood, on her part is all in the guy's head. He's not trapped as you say, he can masturbate without porn (why does no one even realize this is a possibility anymore? We've been over this, but it's just pure laziness). She's trapped because either she has sex, or he goes and does something that really hurts her. How is that not worse than him having to masturbate without porn? If he's not horny enough that he can't even do it without porn, then I'd imagine he's not feeling THAT deprived. That or he's addicted.
You say the hottest men have the most sex, yes well so do the hottest women. Everyone is in the same boat, regardless of gender. Like I said before, people who are the same level of attractiveness are usually the ones who pair off. It's our culture that gives men the idea that they all deserve hot women all the time, having nothing to do with their own levels of attractiveness.
This forced chastity you refer to applies to women as well. But this idea that everyone else is having sex is actually something that came from porn. Off the top of my head I can't recall who did the study, but it found that men who watched porn thought people were having a LOT more sex than they were, and that they were doing far kinkier and crazier things than they actually were. They overestimated the number of people who engaged in anal sex and money shots the most. The average number of sex partners for a man is only 7 (MSNBC), but men who watched porn thought that they were the only ones not having sex (and always with hot women) and described extreme resentment, which would not have existed were it not for porn.
People are generally far more sympathetic to guys who aren't getting any than women, because the idea that women don't like sex is still drilled into us. Just look around on this site, it's mostly the women who complain about not getting enough sex for their liking. Plus anecdotal evidence outside the site leads me to believe that it's no longer such a gender biased thing. Furthermore, there's a direct link between porn use and sexual satisfaction. Men who were shown porn are much less satisfied with the amount and quality of sex they are having. It's cause and effect, not correlation. It's not dissatisfied men turning to porn, it's porn making people dissatisfied. The men who were not shown porn (the control group) were much happier with their partner and their relationships and most importantly for this discussion, with the sex. All this resentment against women and their closed legs and especially the lack of hot women that you describe men feeling sounds like a summary of the introduction of one of the studies.
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reader, Odds +, writes (12 October 2010):
@ Person12345:
I can address the rape stats in a PM or another article if you like; my point was more intended to be that bringing up rape in this thread is off-topic and serves only to make people unnecessarily uncomfortable. For the record, I get most of my info from the CDC.
"Lots of guys are angry, but they're angry for no real reason."
They're angry because they don't get any female attention, or did not for long stretches of their youth; the fact that there is no one woman they can pin that on does not make it any less real. Most (all but a handful of the truly broken men) would have been satisfied with someone, anyone, who wasn't a complete... I can't think of a good word for it that won't unduly hurt feelings. How about "more than one standard deviation below average" girl.
Unfortunately, between amateur porn (couple million hot girls putting out for free on camera) and that top handful of guys I mentioned (who get most of the sex), standards get all thrown out of whack. Women aren't conspiring on this any more than men are. It's game theory (like from A Beautiful Mind) at work - everyone has an incentive to act in a way that indirectly hurts others.
Again, I agree that excessive porn use is a very bad thing. So is promiscuity, for this reason - once a certain percentage of the population engage in it, it reinforces these issues for everyone. I truly believe that men and women would be happier if everyone were less promiscuous, and if porn were less readily available than it is today.
So, between standards being messed up and guys having long periods in their lives without any reasonable opportunity for sex - while having clear evidence that *other* guys are getting it - guys turn to porn. Like I said, it's not like anyone has the slightest sympathy for an involuntarily celibate male. When they get married, continuing to turn to porn when they are not satisfied is completely understandable.
No one takes personal responsiibility - I agree. I simply believe that taking the weaker option is completely understandable, and the reason people do it is worthy of sympathy. Particularly since, as I mentioned below, the guys who really are trying to be decent are the ones who suffer most from that lack.
These guys are the ones my heart goes out to, at least on this topic. Some guys simply do not know how to turn their wives on, and many of them marry women who don't bother to put in the effort, either. But when the woman isn't satisfied, it's sad for her, how awful; when the man isn't satisfied, tough cookies. I feel both deserve sympathy and, if possible, help rekindling things.
As long as it's in moderation, any wife who is going to "not be in the mood" frequently should just learn to look the other way over his porn use. I'll grant that a woman may genuinely just be upset or not feeling strongly attracted to a husband at the moment, but what does that look like from his perspective? "Oh, I'd better not argue with her, or do anything she won't like, or I'm not getting laid, and she doesn't feel comfortable with porn." If it's not meant as manipulation, it sure comes across that way.
As for the natural male urge, men and women both cheat (alert the media!). But they do so for different reasons. Guys have an instinct to father lots of bastards; women have an instinct to cuckold, so they tend to seek more exciting, genetically superior mates - as opposed to guys, who take what's available. Both can benefit from porn in their own ways, assuming it's in moderation and in agreement with their spouse's desires. Women's partner count matters because guys value a low count much more than women do (strong instinct to avoid possible cuckolding). In fact, a female virgin is often greatly desired; most women balk at the thought of being with a male virgin. Again, not condoning promiscuity - I just think we're all phenomenally screwed up. If that's sexist, it's also true.
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female
reader, person12345 +, writes (11 October 2010):
First to address the rape statistic, sorry I haven't looked at the statistics since high school, but according to Rainn.org (the largest American group working to end rape) the number is actually 1 in 6 now. Sorry for misrepresenting. Other than an MRA blog what evidence do you have that would say otherwise? As a man, I'm sure you're rarely privy to real discussions about rape, but from being in groups of women when the topic of rape is brought up, I feel confident that, yes the statistic is definitely right. When it is states otherwise, as a lower number, it's usually quarrels about what rape is defined as. Rape is an epidemic, though most women will not talk about it openly. It's not misandry to cite a rape statistic from a major organization. And don't forget, that because of the way the law defines it, when we are raped we are forced to prove we did not consent to sex. That means we are constantly assumed to be in a state of consent.
Lots of guys are angry, but they're angry for no real reason. Most of them sounded angry because they were rejected in high school. Some were legitimately angry about the fact that every hot woman he knew didn't want to have sex with him, and most of them blamed that fact on porn. I even have a quote from one, "What I can't figure out is the sheer quantity of porn. And the caliber of the women/girls in it. Leaves you feeling like, "Am I the only guy not currently having daily sex with 5 ultra-hot women that are willing to do anything at all?" And that feeling makes you start to feel contempt for every hot girl you see that doesn't walk by you, turn around, hike her skirt, and say, 'Follow me.'" And that's not a healthy attitude to have. The only way women could fix this is to lie around with their legs spread.
Yes, women generally are more selective than men for hookup type sex. But you seem to have this idea that all women are conspiring and that by wanting to sleep with someone attractive we're somehow being manipulative and terrible. Men constantly talk about how much they want to sleep with hotties too. Look around you at couples and people who hook up. Usually the man and the woman are on comparable levels of attractiveness. Sure there are a lot of guys not getting laid, but there are a lot of women not having sex too. You yourself say that when men get desperate they have to "lay a fatty." Men reject women they deem unattractive almost as often. It's not true at all that only men have this problem. And while women have the upper hand when it comes to one night stands, people have the most sex while in relationships (usually) rather than hook ups and men most definitely have the upper hand there in terms of "selection." From what you say, you seem to think most men basically feel resentment because they aren't having sex with enough hot women and therefore it must be because women are withholding. Here's the deal with one night stands. Less than half of women are even "granted" an orgasm when they hook up, then they get called sluts for it, and if something goes wrong and she gets pregnant, she's stuck with the shame (or painful medical procedure). Maybe women would be less selective if hookups weren't almost always about the guy getting laid.
About women on "powertrips" by withholding, I've "counseled" a lot of male friends with this and every single time, it's not because she's being a manipulative shrew, every single time it's because she's depressed, or because they just had a fight, or because she's on a new pill, or because she's not feeling satisfied, or whatever. I read an article on Fox News from this guy about how to get her to stop withholding and listed, she's angry with you as a withholding "tactic." Emotional turmoil isn't exactly an aphrodisiac. Women don't just stop the sex for no reason. There's always a reason and it's almost never that she's on a "powertrip." But it's much easier just to get angry at her than to try to figure it out.
"Whether the wife is failling to put effort into a marriage, or a guy is failling to maintain his wife's interest, porn offers the same easy solution it did when the guy was in college and women didn't want him."
Yes, and where does personal responsibility come into this? If she's failing to put effort into the marriage, then going and hiding online is not going to fix anything, it just widens the gap. If the guy is failing to maintain his wife's interest and is instead looking at porn, he's not upholding his end of the bargain. If something is wrong with the sex in the marriage, going and looking at porn is only going to make it worse. If every time your wife isn't in the mood you go watch porn, it takes away your incentive to try to keep her interested (the same goes for women).
The "natural male urge" thing is always cited in these things, and it's always ridiculous. Even the NY Times has talked about how as social restrictions on women's sexuality are removed, women are catching up to men in terms of infidelity. Women have just as much an urge to cheat as men. According to the same NY Times article, they cite statistics from hunter gatherer societies where there is no difference between genders about who cheats more. There are also numerous studies showing that innately women are just as visual, just as prone to cheating, and when our needs are taken care of we have just as high of sex drives. The only evidence to the contrary is men arguing that because they are in the more sexually liberated and more entitled group, somehow that translates to natural urge.
You mention women are getting fatter, women are having more sex partners (how is this more of a problem than when men have more sex partners? That's extremely sexist) then that women are getting fatter again. Men are getting fatter and lazier too, but they're not constantly getting judged and bombarded with the idea that they need to be hot or they're worthless. Men get bombarded with this idea about women too, which is why there is such resentment from men when women gain any weight or age (we can't stop aging, and we can't help that we generally gain weight as we get older and permanently gain about 10 lbs. per baby).
From the same NY Mag article some men even talk about how unfair it is that hot women don't want an average chubby couch potato. So basically there seems to be this divide in rationality. Men want to have as many women as they can, and they all need to be uber-hot and extremely libidinous with no desires of her own but at the same time be a virgin before they start having sex. His own responsibility to keep her satisfied and to keep himself attractive and to take care of her emotional needs too (like not looking at porn every day and not cheating on her) are never, ever mentioned. All you ever hear is how she's being manipulative and shrew and making him look at porn, because it's her fault. But the thing is, with the restrictions men put on women to not be at "fault" she basically has to be a robot. She absolutely cannot satisfy all these demands put on her. Maybe if men put down the porn for a minute and paid a little more attention, then this huge divide and resentment on both sides wouldn't be happening.
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reader, Odds +, writes (11 October 2010):
@ person12345:
While I agree with you that excessive porn use in a relationship is a bad thing, I take issue with a few of your statements. Note that this entire post is going to be from a guy's persepctive regarding porn use; I don't feel qualified to explain women's use of porn.
First, if one guy wants to "put those bitches in their place," he's probably just an ass. If *lots* of guys are angry... I'd start to wonder if they have a legitimate complaint.
Women *are* the gatekeepers of sex. It's not for the reason many guys think, though - a lot of us erroneously assume women have less of a libido. It's that all women basically chase around the top 20% or so most attractive guys, who enjoy the top 80% or so of women's attention throughout their teens and twenties (numbers are estimates, chosen to fit Pareto's law).
This leaves a subtantial portion of guys in a state of involuntary celibacy for large parts of their youth while women chase the top dogs. The situation is not reversed because, while women may still have difficulty finding a good relationship-type guy, most of them have little difficulty getting sex from attractive men. Even the most attractive guy will lay a fatty now and then.
So, a lot of guys end up understandably angry about it. While women *do* withhold sex within relationships as a power trip (ask any guy; it's happened to all of us), and not just because they aren't in the mood, the issue here is the women who withhold outside of relationship. It's the long dry spells where guys not only can't get laid, but they can't get sympathy for it, either. No woman on earth respects a guy who can't get laid, and few (if any) men offer sympathy, either, beyond mutual complaints.
Porn offers a way to relieve the physical ache for release, and although it does nothing to relieve the (justified) bitterness. I only support porn use in moderation, but I can completely understand the guys who use it as a primary method of relief, even in relationships. Whether the wife is failling to put effort into a marriage, or a guy is failling to maintain his wife's interest, porn offers the same easy solution it did when the guy was in college and women didn't want him.
Second, that one-in-four women being raped statistic is a monstrous, misandric lie - leaving aside completely the fact that it has nothing to do with this conversation, or that it has nothing to do with women withholding sex in the context of an otherwise healthy relationship.
Third, regarding "virtual cheating," there is a natural male urge to sow some oats. Natural does not equal "morally correct," but guys aren't choosing to have the urge. The urge would be much easier to fight if the rise of easily available porn had not coincided with both the increase in women's previous partner tally and the increase in their weight. Sure, guys are getting fatter too, and I think it's a failure on their part - but again, this post is from a man's perspective.
Porn does, of course, change a guy's perspective on what turns him on. Again, I agree that moderation is the key. But complaining that a wife fails to keep the weight off or groom properly is completely legitimate.
Lastly, women's gatekeeper status really does have a powerful hold over guys. The hold is disproportionately powerful over the guys who deserve it the least - guys who won't pressure her into it, who just want to be loved, who don't understand why being a stable, loving provider just isn't enough to get her engine running, guys who would never, ever cheat.
Women's gatekeeper status has little effect on guys who cheat all they want (or refuse to commit in the first place), who pressure women into sex, or who manipulate her with their own sociopathic tendencies to put out more often.
You can see why "nice guys" get bitter over this stuff. Maybe if someone where to show them a little compassion, they would get over it, and not feel the need to turn to porn even in their own marriages.
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reader, person12345 +, writes (10 October 2010):
Yes I read that article in NY Mag. I wasn't particularly interested in the article but I did read through every single last comment. I couldn't help it. I got interested from seeing the anger around the issue on this website, and then the comments on that article were so amazingly misogynistic and cruel that I started doing a lot of research into the subject. Basically the gist of what I got was that every pro-porn guy had one of the following viewpoints:1. To put those bitches who reject them in their places by degrading them and watching them in pain.2. To remove some kind of perceived sense of power they believe women have over them by being some kind of gatekeepers to sex. Which is ridiculous since not only is it not a power we have as women (since around 1 in 4 of us gets raped, and the only time I've ever heard of women witholding sex as a "power" trick is because she's *gasp* just not in the mood), it is the ONLY place we are perceived to have power, and therefore is must be taken away. Think about it, our sexuality is literally the only thing women are perceived (incorrectly) to have more power with. There is no power imbalance on the part of women. Women do not withhold sex as a manipulation tool. Porn is doing nothing but widening the gender gap. It does not make men less of sex slaves (which is ridiculous to imply that because the woman doesn't want sex every single time he wants it, suddenly she's manipulating and power hungry). It makes women into more of sex slaves to men, forcing them to try to compete with porn. Often being pushed into doing things that they really don't want to (like anal) just to try to compete. I heard several commenters say they loved the switch in power, that now women were begging them for sex and that now they had to work harder to keep the men interested. Which is funny since I'm pretty sure bikini waxes are still more the norm for women and I'm also pretty sure very few straight men are asked to take it up the butt, or take a load on the face.3. As a way to cheat on their partner without touching anyone because normal women are fat and ugly. Which really does prove Naomi's thesis that porn changes the way men view women. As well, I noticed them complaining about women choosing to keep their pubic hair, and complaining about things like aging, being pregnant, and mostly from being "fat" because cosmo said it was OK to be curvy.4. Like I said before, many commenters were extremely excited that they could use porn as a bargaining chip, like, if you don't do this for me, I can go watch porn instead. Basically the power imbalance is remarkable.I noticed a trend of, I hate those bitches for being insecure and trying to have control over their own sexuality in the comments. What I heard from most was extreme anger and some hatred towards women, with a severe intolerance for any sort of physical differences among women, as well as extreme intolerance for emotions or feelings from women. A lot of what I got from those hundreds of comments was that porn was their way of continuing to keep desperate hold on women's sexuality as they felt it slipping away from their control (i.e. women taking control of their own sexuality and standing up for being treated well in a relationship).There was a study done in the 80's that measured people's satisfaction in relationships and with their partners before and after using porn. It was repeated multiple times over the past three decades. Every single time it was done, the result was very clear that porn use, regardless of how infrequent or what kind they used, reduced satisfaction with every aspect of their partner and their sex life. It's very clear from EVERYTHING, from anecdotal evidence, to surveys, to scientific studies that porn is at best neutral to a small group, and generally just extremely bad in relationships.
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reader, Cupid Boy +, writes (10 October 2010):
Cupid Boy is verified as being by the original poster of the questionIt wasn't really that long ago that the bigger issue was masturbation, not porn. I recall reading advice columns about women's shock and horror at finding out their bf/husband pleasures himself without her, and why does he have to lie and hide, etc.
I think these are simply natural things to lie about. Especially when many grow up in families where most sex is either condemned or just never discussed. Teens going through puberty and discovering their bodies, having wet dreams, etc., instinctively know they must hide all evidence of it (toys, stained sheets, etc.). This continues for as long as they are living at home. These ingrained habits don't just go away when you become an adult. Why do people hide masturbation and porn? Because that's simply what you do. There is not necessarily anything nefarious behind it.
Now here is a different perspective. Was reading some feminist article complaining about how porn reduces men's desire for real women. These are two comments left by readers:
1. Risky11: "I am grateful for good porn. Without it, I would be sexually starved. And I would be reduced to a 'sex slave,' willing to do whatever power-hungry bitches on the dating scene demanded, just to meet my basic needs. So thank goodness for porn. Additionally, whenever I do have the opportunity for sex, I am very selective. If she is old, fat or ugly, I will not do it. Porn frees me from the temptation to compromise my standards. It upholds my self-esteem. This is a very good thing! When I do decide to go for it, my mind needs to be engaged in an erotic way. There needs to be a feeling of her wanting me, a connection between us, or doing something deliciously sinful. I am building hot memories for both of us, a very rewarding adventure."
2. lveric: "Oh well, men are less excited for the real thing, and now women have less power and feel deprived. I can remember being the sexually frustrated, nerdy kid in school that the hot girls gleefully teased and cruelly tormented with no compassion or remorse. Porn on the internet has been a godsend for me in weakening the power that females abused. Women get no sympathy from me, and between porn and my girlfriend, my sexual needs are well satisfied. Other women are now judged mainly on their abilities, character and personality (as men are), and that is a good thing."
Is porn actually helping to redress some gender imbalance that exists? It is an interesting theory. (Though until guys everywhere start giving up the real thing, I'd say there's no cause for alarm.)
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reader, person12345 +, writes (4 October 2010):
I agree about faking it, I never understood why it became so OK to fake it. It's so deceitful! I can't even imagine how much that would hurt, to be a guy and find out you don't rock her world as much as you thought you did. Plus all it does is prevent you from having any kind of a satisfying relationship, because he'll never know what pushes your buttons properly. It's a no-win situation.
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reader, wee_neko +, writes (4 October 2010):
I'm not in the group that says you should stop watching porn. If you know it's something she'd be pissed about though, you might not want to lie to her about it and get her pissed to the nth power.
Or maybe, JUST MAYBE, you should date someone who doesn't give two shits that you watch porn. There ARE in fact girls out there like that so you don't have to stick around and deal with some girl bitching about your "disgusting porn habit" or whatever.
And faking orgasms is pretty much the same thing. You can't just say it's different because it bothers YOU, OP. The whole point is to not lie and deceive to "spare the person's feelings" because really it's just avoiding a discussion that may or may not be uncomfortable. In this case, honesty is probably the best policy because then you don't have to deal with her raging at you later once she does discover your porn stash.
*Note: don't fake it ladies*
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reader, person12345 +, writes (3 October 2010):
"It common knowledge that for every one lie a man tells, the women tells ten."
Um, excuse me? That's an incredibly sexist assumption, just like that response in the marriage post saying white women are selfish and you won't date them anymore. I assume the selfishness you're referring to is her refusing to be treated like garbage. I don't appreciate the sexist tone of your argument.
"If it is hurting her then she should grow up, not everything is about her, a relationship is about sharing and taking care of your partner, nuf said"
If a relationship is about taking care of your partner, the street has to go both ways. It can't just be her taking care of him. That means he has to take care of her too. And that includes not doing things he knows hurts her. Her being hurt by porn is not her choice and asking him not to look at porn shouldn't be emotionally hurting him, and not nearly as badly as he's hurting her by lying about this. Basically what you said in that statement is, it may be hurting her, but she needs to grow up and realize a relationship is about pleasing her partner and never about her. That her feelings, regardless of how strong or legitimate they are don't matter as much as her partner's on the basis that she's a woman.
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reader, Myau  +, writes (2 October 2010):
 Ive never really understood why women get so upset when they find out about white lies. It common knowledge that for every one lie a man tells, the women tells ten.
I'm afraid I'm firmly in the "women should get over it" camp.
As I'm anything but a pervert, id rather not be called it, as that sticks and can really hurt a guy trying to meet someone new.
Faking orgasms is a different topic really, I talk to my gfs at the start and ask them not to, I do understand that it doesn't always happen, Ive had a few times when i haven't. Don't know why and I doubt they do either.
My first gf actually owned a video and we would watch it together. Some of my other gfs have watched rented DVDs with me and others haven't.
If it is hurting her then she should grow up, not everything is about her, a relationship is about sharing and taking care of your partner, nuf said
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reader, person12345 +, writes (1 October 2010):
He could respect her wishes and stop. I know that some of the lying is about protecting her from hurt feelings, but a lot of the lying is also so he doesn't have to face up to the reality that he's hurting her and to avoid dealing with her getting upset at him (for his own sake rather than hers). So if he wants to keep watching despite knowing it hurts his partner, he should be willing to deal with her reaction. So he really only has three options that anyone could respect; one stop using porn, two face up to it and deal with the reaction, or three break up with her.
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reader, Cupid Boy +, writes (1 October 2010):
Cupid Boy is verified as being by the original poster of the questionAll right. But if hiding porn is the same as faking orgasms... doesn't that make it seem more understandable and justified? Both are done to spare the other person's feelings, and are somewhat well-intentioned (though that doesn't make them right).I now can see how the lying and hiding could be worse (or at least make things seem worse). But how exactly is someone expected to "not hide" porn? Leave adult videos on the shelf like regular books? Have a porn folder on the desktop instead of hidden? How do you tell the truth if it doesn't come up in conversation (which it normally wouldn't)? Should he announce, "Well, I'm gonna go watch a porno now. Care to join me?" Like how should it be handled?
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reader, smiliek  +, writes (29 September 2010):
 wee_neko makes a good point. There is no need for a discussion about what kind of porn each person watches, but there is no need to lie about it. Faking orgasms is a good comparison. Guys feelings get hurt if we lie about whether they got us off or not, feel as though they haven't done their job good enough. Some women may feel that if their guy looks at porn it means he's not sexually satisfied with her (even if he is) Both topics are 'white lies' to a point. But really in a good healthy relationship, the woman should be able to tell her partner that he didnt quite get her off and give suggestions so he can. In most cases the guy still wants the woman to enjoy herself (means more sex for him right..?) so will do something different so she can orgasm. Now porn, the guy can lie and hide it, but if his partner finds out (which we nearly always do) she then becomes hurt and the sex life can suffer. She might not mind porn, but be very upset that he lied to her over something. So she doesnt feel the love and trust and respect she once had, and doesnt wish to give herself to her man for a bit. Then he uses porn more since he's not getting any from his partner. So its really lose lose. What does the male gain by lying about porn? For a while it might work, but then when she finds out he loses her trust and the sex life suffers. If he's honest from the start and the gal can accept porn use, then nothing is affected. If she hates porn and wont accept it, then they can move on to someone more suitable for them
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reader, wee_neko +, writes (28 September 2010):
I'm not about to read all the comments, they're rather long.
I personally don't discuss the kind of porn I enjoy with my bf, and he doesn't discuss his preferences with me. We acknowledge that the other does look at porn and we leave it at that.
That said, I think what most women (myself included) object to is the deception. We don't understand why you need to hide something that (in my opinion) is pretty much to be expected of a sexually healthy person. Lying to your partner about something that could potentially affect the relationship is not good.
Why do men get so upset when we admit to faking the occasional orgasm? We were just trying to spare your feelings. Yet it's basically a lie that drives you guys nuts.
Incidentally, it's a better comparison than your ice cream thing. What does that have to do with sex or the relationship at all?
Conclusion: Don't lie about it. If she can't deal with it, cut back to compromise or move along.
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reader, person12345 +, writes (25 September 2010):
"In the US, the whopping 85% reduction in rape in the last 25 years tracks almost exactly with a corresponding increase in availability of porn"
I've seen the study you're referring to and it has some flaws. First off, the significant reduction in rape is a reduction in reported or charged rapes, not in actual rapes. It's hard to get numbers on how many rapes happen, but they're pretty uniform (with a few outliers). It's pretty apparent when you look deeper that it's only the reporting of rapes that are going down, while rapes themselves have remained around the same. Another thing is that while rapes have remained more or less the same, other violent crimes have experienced a significant decrease. From anecdotal evidence it's pretty clear to me that amount my generation there is literally a greater stigma attached to being raped and reporting it than to raping someone. I overheard a conversation awhile back where some guy said "well the bitch shouldn't have come to our party if she didn't want to get raped." And then listened to other WOMEN calling her a slut and a whore and talking about how she should probably go kill herself for being such a skank. It's not unheard of for women who report rapes to receive death threats.
Donnerstein et. al conducted a study long before internet porn was popular and found that in college aged men, exposure to non-violent heterosexual porn caused them to feel significantly less empathy for rape victims, and made them significantly more likely to agree with rape myths like "she was asking for it," etc... Correlation studies that examine the sex industry's impact on rape that go deeper than, reported rapes have gone down since the internet explosion (they didn't even try to control for things like whether it was more information, they assumed it was porn) suggest that in areas with more sex industry biz (sex stores, strip clubs, etc...) rape rates and domestic violence increased by some enormous amounts. I'm not a big fan of correlation studies in general, but they controlled for factors like income, race, etc... and even the police agreed it was the only probable cause. Yes statistics agree with both studies (the second ones saying it caused an increase went more in depth), but I still am always skeptical of any correlation study (including the increase in strip clubs causing rape).
"Ironically, those who develop the most problems with porn are from conservative, anti-porn families. Conservative states in the US generally spend more on pornos than the blue states. Guess when you're told you can't have something, it makes you want it more?"
I couldn't agree more. I think the amount of violent porn and violent sexual behavior would DRAMATICALLY decrease if sex just stopped being so damn stigmatized! It's not rocket science to figure out that if you tell someone that the totally natural thing they're doing is wrong (sex, not porn) then they are going to have some issues. When you catch your teen with his/her hand down their pants and yell at them, it's going to lead to some serious confusion. We need better sex ed that doesn't do the whole "you will get pregnant, and you will die. Just don't have sex. OK promise?" (that's a quote from Mean Girls btw). We need to remove the out of touch "family values" about how sex before marriage is evil and a sin and such, which makes everyone feel guilty and thus makes them act out. It also divides women into this whole, virgin whore dichotomy that makes men think badly of women no matter what their sexuality. We need a global reprogramming about sex and masturbation.
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reader, Cupid Boy +, writes (25 September 2010):
Cupid Boy is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThanks for all the intelligent responses. Maybe it shows this issue is more complex and nuanced than people think -- more than just picking one of two sides: that porn is uniformly bad and its users selfish and depraved OR that porn is absolutely harmless and women just need to get over it.
Yes, women are porn fans too. One in six readers of Today's Christian Woman, of all things, even admitted to being addicts. We're told porn exploits women. But now there are more and more female porn directors and producers, as well as women owning their own websites and production companies, undoubtedly making way more money selling a potentially addictive product than most of their customers will ever make. Almost makes you wonder just who is really being exploited here.
Found a few more facts recently:
- In the US, the whopping 85% reduction in rape in the last 25 years tracks almost exactly with a corresponding increase in availability of porn
- At a meeting of divorce lawyers, they agreed that porn had played a major role in over half the divorces. Before the Internet, it played almost no role at all.
- Ironically, those who develop the most problems with porn are from conservative, anti-porn families. Conservative states in the US generally spend more on pornos than the blue states. Guess when you're told you can't have something, it makes you want it more?
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reader, Miamine  +, writes (25 September 2010):
 Correction, person12345 is one of the few people who won't even tell a white lie..
"Regardless of what the motivations are, lying about something that could potentially hurt your partner is ALWAYS a bad thing. I'm even opposed to lying when your partner asks if he/she looks fat or something."
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reader, Miamine +, writes (24 September 2010):
JMTMJ... thank you very much for remembering.. SOME WOMEN LIKE PORNOGRAPHY AND HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH IT.
No point trying to argue about what is natural and innate or how ALL women feel, because you forget about a lot of women who have n problem with pornography, and you forget about men who hate it.
You tread on dangerous ground when you make this into gender wars and seek to speak for all people.
Good analogy Cupidboy, I've tried to use it myself, but didn't have the references you have provided (Miamine stores in porn factfinding file).. although it's been rejected, I know for a fact that women lie a lot about food, weight issues and the amount of money they spend of beauty, as well as the high levels of insecurity they feel.
The idea that some people ALWAYS TELL THE TRUTH about everything in their relationship, is confusing to me. People lie about everything all the time. They have too, we all tell "white lies" to maintain successful relationships and prevent emotionally hurting people with brutal honesty. As I always say, never met a person brave enough to say "Yes you look fat in that dress, yes you smell bad, and your personality stinks, but I love you anyway"
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reader, jimrich +, writes (24 September 2010):
re: "So from all the porn questions and answers on here, it seems many women think a guy's lying about his porn use and hiding it are actually WORSE than the porn itself. They cannot understand why anyone would lie about something like that and go behind their back. They ask why doesn't he just come out and be honest, why do it furtively, in secret, instead of sharing?"..... Is it 'worse' because she already suffers with low/bad self esteem and insecurity over porn, lying and hiding and gets 'hurt' because she has no idea what to do about her own inadequacy, lack of confidence and the automatic reactions they bring? I'd say her problem is her own bad self worth and the spontaneous reactions they force instead of his misbehavior. A person with good/high self esteem and self confidence might be alarmed by lying and hiding but NOT hurt and would know exactly how to handle his offenses to reach a happy solution."They cannot understand why anyone would lie about something like that and go behind their back."... They need to 'understand' their own knee-jerk reactions and the bad self worth that causes them.It's an aspect of Codependency to focus on his behavior instead of her own and struggle to 'figure him out' instead of figuring out why she reacts that way. If she would look at her own behavior, she might see that it's her own lack and insecurity that is hurting her."They ask why doesn't he just come out and be honest, why do it furtively, in secret, instead of sharing?".... There's that Codependent behavior again and she is focused on the wrong thing! She needs to first ask herself: What is it about me and my personal insecurities that causes him to do this? Why don't I have enough self respect and confidence to bring him into the open and share this with me? If I had more self worth and pride, would any of this even be happening? If I had more self respect, would I ever be HURT by any of this or be at a loss as to how to handle it? AM I JUST A CODEPENDENT suffering from Codependent REACTIONS? If yes, what can I (or we) do about this Codependency?re: "Sorry this got so long! So why is hiding porn and lying about it so much worse than the porn itself?" ... IMO, it's only 'worse' because she has low self respect and unhealthy self esteem and gets hurt by all of it due to her own short comings."And why is the tendency to lie and hide so difficult for girls to understand??"... Same thing! She can not 'understand' while lost in the maze of low/bad self worth and it's consequent DEFENSIVE reactions. When she is no longer Codependent and has better self esteem, she will understand her 'tendencies' and his and will be able to find solutions to her problems (and maybe his also).The entire issue raised here and written about so eloquently is only about our own personal state of self worth and happiness, IMO. Every item and question has at it's center the basic issue of our own good or bad self respect and worth - not someone others. And every issue can be answered by improving our own self worth - not some others' self worth. When we have good self worth and respect, we MAY be able to effect some other and get them to come out of lying and hiding.
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reader, wantspaintogoaway +, writes (24 September 2010):
 Its the fact that your keeping things from your lover. in true love you dont have to hide anything
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reader, Jmtmj +, writes (23 September 2010):
 "Women do understand, that's why it hurts. Hurt over porn is an emotion, not a choice. Therefore it is not a lack of understanding on her part."
Well... no... most MEN AND WOMEN don't understand the others point of view about porn, again, that's why its such a problem for some couples in my opinion.
Both guys and girls can be hurt by something in general and still not entirely understand why they're upset... Understanding is not a pre-cursor for pain. If anything, understanding is a pre-cursor for forgiveness, tolerance and change.
Now it took me a long time to fully understand it from a woman's perspective after reading many of them on this very site... and it has genuinely changed my stance on porn. Its because of this that I feel safe in saying that many women do not and quite possibly will not understand exactly how men view the women acting in porn until they actually listen to some guys perspectives on it. This is not to say that change is demanded or expected from simply understanding, but its certainly easier for both parties to come to a mutually beneficial agreement when they both feel they're being understood... instead of simply being steamrolled over.
"Understanding is a two-way street.”
– Eleanor Roosevelt
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reader, Cupid Boy +, writes (23 September 2010):
Cupid Boy is verified as being by the original poster of the question@person12345:
What you say about it being a choice may be fundamentally true. But saying it's just all motivated by selfishness, laziness, and is 100% a choice is simplistic. You could say alcoholics, anorexics, emotional eaters, and gamblers chose their situations too. That they chose to ruin their lives and their relationships. But did they really have 100% choice? Or was it more like 70% in some cases or 40% in others, depending on the internal and external forces at work on them?
For a guy who just sort of liked porn, whose life was great, and who wasn't using it to fill unmet psychological needs or flee from a dismal reality, yes, it would be lazy for him not to give it up. But you may be assuming that all porn users fit into that category.
Women, and anyone else not producing 200 million sperm per day, will have no sympathy or even empathy on this issue because they literally have no point of reference. The best I can describe it is (and sorry if this is a bit crude), imagine the most turned on you've ever been in your life. Now imagine you could get to that state almost instantly by pushing a button. You could even stay in that state for extended periods of time, like a high. If such a device were invented for women, I don't doubt that many would choose it over their spouses or become addicts. Now imagine having constant access to this power but being told to give it up forever. Until you can see it as a compulsion, not just a questionable hobby or pastime, you'll continue to think that those who don't quit it when asked are just being selfish.
I get the impression your views on this subject are very longstanding and fixed. You're not here to test your opinions or be influenced in any way, you are here to proselytize. That's fine. I'm not in a relationship so I have no great emotional stake in this debate either way. I only wish those on both sides would be more willing to see it from the other's perspective.
That article was highly speculative. Women's sex drive is equal but only appears less because it is discouraged? A simpler explanation is that it's discouraged because high female sex drive is outside the norm (though it does exist). Low male sex drive is ridiculed for the same reason. Women's sex drive is certainly not discouraged within marriage, not even by the church, yet even in that context it seems to fall short.
When women do have sex, it can be for any number of reasons, mostly disconnected from physical urges, such as wanting to seduce a guy, to keep the guy around, to feel wanted and desired, to alleviate boredom, to rebel against her parents, to get pregnant, to get a promotion, to get revenge on a rival, to lose her nice-girl image, etc. These are intellectual reasons for doing something that most men do on instinct.
Though I'd avoid porn within a relationship, I still would not want to be with someone who was arbitrarily and dogmatically opposed to it. When one person feels compelled to seek out porn, alcohol, or anything else for their comfort, then finds giving it up to be a major struggle, compassion and empathy are more enlightened responses than a relationship-ending ultimatum.
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reader, Odds +, writes (22 September 2010):
Another point here is that men liekly don't want their women to see exactly what they are masturbating to. What 40 year-old wife wants to see "barely legal" in the browser history? What A-cup wants to see "big naturals" there?
Simply put, guys are (rightly or wrongly) afraid that their wives and girlfriends will be upset that he is whacking off to women who are completely different from her. That's not even counting the issue of how often he does it.
Guys' natural drive is for sexual variety (note: there is a difference between natural and moral - I'm not condoning promiscuity, cheating, or open relationships). Porn is a relatively harmless way of relieving that urge without cheating - although the appropriateness of the term "harmless" varies by relationship, of course.
Women simply do not have the natural desire for variety to the degree that men do - some desire, sure, but not nearly the same amount. Cheating and promiscuity happen in both genders for entirely different reasons, as does dissatisfaction with the current sex life.
Of course, any man with a semblance of character feels some amount of shame at this desire when he is married, and does not want to show it.
So, between the desire to aovid fights and shame at one's own properly suppressed urges, there's a lot of incentive to institute a "don't ask, don't tell" policy on porn.
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reader, person12345 +, writes (22 September 2010):
"most men don't want to understand because then we wouldn't be able to justify ourselves being able to watch it,"
Right on the money. Because you can't justify a need for porn beyond a need to get off to other women. There is no other way to justify it. The absolute only way you can possibly justify your porn use when it hurts her, is by saying, look honey, I love you. But I just don't care enough about you or your feelings to masturbate without porn. When it comes down to it, it's not a necessity for masturbation. Masturbation and porn are not interchangeable things, and it scares me a lot how much people seem to be using them as synonyms.
Myau: Women do understand, that's why it hurts. Hurt over porn is an emotion, not a choice. Therefore it is not a lack of understanding on her part. Women here ask all the time how they can get over it because they really want it not to hurt, but it's not a switch, it's not a choice. Using porn, however, is 100% a choice. You can choose not to use porn. As I said earlier, masturbation and porn are not the same thing. You can do one without the other. I'm aware porn makes it easier, but basically what you're saying is, I'm not willing to put in a little extra effort to get off so that it doesn't completely destroy your trust in me and completely crush you emotionally. Basically, laziness and disrespect.
OP: It's been basically proven (you can't prove anything in science, but you can get close) through science and everything that men and women innately do not differ in sex drive. The reason society looks so different is due to the fact that throughout history, we have almost exclusively lived in a patriarchy where women have little to no political power and where women are practically locked up for showing any sign of sexuality. It's only recently that women have really had rights. In Tibet women have multiple husbands, and yet men aren't out raping and killing due to sexual frustration. This isn't a scientific article and it's leaning a bit towards the man-hating anger that's so unproductive, but it's nonetheless an interesting take on the "innate" differences.
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/21/magazine/men-women-sex-and-darwin.html
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reader, Jmtmj +, writes (22 September 2010):
I totally agree with you Myau...
"Women dont understand it and never will for one reason only. They dont want to understand. They are right and thats that."
...but here's the thing... most men don't understand it from most women's point of view either... most men don't want to understand because then we wouldn't be able to justify ourselves being able to watch it, and we certainly enjoy being right as well.
Which is why this is such a passionate, but unfortunately dead end topic that just keeps coming up over and over again.
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reader, Myau +, writes (22 September 2010):
Women dont understand it and never will for one reason only. They dont want to understand. They are right and thats that.
They just cant understand the notion of "having to masturbate" as opposed to wanting to.
Im serous when I admit when I was 16 - 25, if i didnt masturbate, i didnt sleep. Im not kidding, put it to the test a few times.
Now that im in my 30's its not so bad, actually I feel quite happier now that I dont have to. But I dont see my earlier life as perverted or wrong in any way, it was simply being in my sexual prime.
So my point is Women will just never understand that porn is a tool we use to get off. Ironicly by their logic we should resent their vibrators (and every girl has one)
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reader, Sim1983 +, writes (22 September 2010):
dress it up how you want it s all the same. degrading
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reader, smiliek +, writes (21 September 2010):
Yes women can hold out for a guy who wont use porn if they wont accept it. But what of those who will accept porn, in moderation obviously, but wont accept being lied to? There's a difference. Why cant guys if asked directly about porn and porn use give an honest answer. We're not your mum or someone that has no right to know. Anything sexual, to a point, affects both parties in a relationship. Soo many guys get on their high horse and say that its only a few minutes of selfish pleasure, they dont compare to their women, they dont remember the things they watch, its a harmless brief thing that relaxes them etc etc... Well if its so harmless, there simply should be no reason to lie. Yes some women will leave a guy over porn use, but that is then their choice and they obviously weren't going to work out anyway. Better to end it then hide something away for years until it eventually comes out. Noone can live a lie forever.
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reader, Jmtmj +, writes (21 September 2010):
"Women, you absolutely have the right to a porn-free relationship and to hold out for a guy who shares your view. They are out there. (Of course, that also means men have the right to hold out for a woman who's accepting of porn and not settle for anything less.)"
That's a very good point...
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reader, Cupid Boy +, writes (21 September 2010):
Cupid Boy is verified as being by the original poster of the questionSince it seems my post is being interpreted as defending porn and lying, let me be clear. I'm not defending those things at all. In fact I am against porn within a relationship (except in rare cases where its use would actually enhance the relationship). I was reading all the porn questions on here and finding it very distressing how much women (and a few men) have been profoundly hurt by it. But there also seemed to be a lack of understanding as to WHY a person would lie.
I'm not saying sex drive and shame EXCUSE these things. Just that it makes them understandable. Like if my partner had flirted with guys at work and kept it from me, I'd be upset. But I could understand WHY she had lied. If she seemed eager to let me know about it, I'd think she was trying to be hurtful.
@person12345: you're entitled to your opinion. But if sex drives were equal between guys and girls, all of society would look much different. I really wish you were right though.
Saying it has nothing to do with gender is a feminist view based on the belief that any differences between genders can be explained by societal influences, not biology. But until everyone is born with the same brain, hormone levels and genitalia, that will never hold true.
And I acknowledged that food and porn were not at all the same thing. The food analogy was used because it's something else people tend to do in the dark and keep secret. Like porn, the foods people binge on the most tend to be artifically engineered to taste good, have little to no nutritional value, are addictive, and can make you feel sick and ashamed afterwards. But if you have a better analogy, I'll consider it.
Women, you absolutely have the right to a porn-free relationship and to hold out for a guy who shares your view. They are out there. (Of course, that also means men have the right to hold out for a woman who's accepting of porn and not settle for anything less.)
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reader, smiliek +, writes (21 September 2010):
Well for me personally, i simply hate lying. About anything. Sure ive told a few, as has everyone, but i dont lie to my fiance. Why should i need to? If im not honest with him, then what is the point of a relationship? Relationships should be built on trust, lies tear that apart. I trusted my guy, one day found a dirty picture on his phone (he'd left it open and fallen asleep) i asked why he had it, and he lied! Straight out. I felt sick to my stomach thinking 'what else is he lying and hiding from me' Turns out, porn is the only thing he lies about. We nearly broke up because i simply will not tolerate getting lied to. Now, he still looks at porn. But generally doesnt lie. Him looking at porn doesnt affect our relationship, he hasn't picked it over me or anything, but if he lies about it i get seriously pissed. Because there should be no reason to lie in a relationship. And think of it this way. If there was something that you would not accept in a relationship, say dildo use, and you told your gf that you wouldn't accept it, would you expect her to give it up or break up with you? What if she lied about using it and you caught her out, would you feel horrid because she lied over something you had said you hated? Well, some women wont accept any porn use in a relationship. And they have the right to tell their partner that. If the guy knows he wont stop, they could end it before getting too far in with emotions. But if he lies and she finds out years after, it hurts even more because they love each other etc. Far harder to leave then. If he was honest when she said it, then the emotions wouldn't be so far gone. I dont know how to seperate the hate of lying and the use of porn for a guy to understand. It took my fiance and i almost breaking up before he realised it was the lying i wouldn't accept. Im ok with him using porn so long as it doesnt affect us and so long as he doesnt look anything up when im at home. We made an agreement on that too. My partner said he lied because he hated talking about it, what he doesnt get is that if he didnt lie we wouldn't talk about it. He sometimes still doesnt understand that. But at least i dont feel sick when something gets said because i can tell when he's lying, and for the last few months he hasn't been. There is no need to lie and keep stuff from a partner. And if someone will lie about porn, what else will they lie about? The cheating reference person brought up is spot on. When he first lied, my first reaction wasn't 'omg he has porn' it was 'shit he's lying about porn, what else is there he's hiding?!' Try and think of a situation where you were lied to and wondered if you could trust that person again, well thats pretty much how it feels...
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reader, person12345 +, writes (21 September 2010):
Because it's lying and hiding. Why is it so difficult to understand why lying and hiding something that hurts her, is hurtful? You say it's to spare her feelings. Yes, I get that, we all get that. But it's exactly the same reason people lie about cheating. So when a woman catches her guy cheating, he lies about it, and goes well I only did it spare your feelings, it only hurts more. Regardless of what the motivations are, lying about something that could potentially hurt your partner is ALWAYS a bad thing. I'm even opposed to lying when your partner asks if he/she looks fat or something.Lets look at your main arguments here:1) Men have a much higher sex drive that torments them and women can't understand.2) Men feel shameful about their sex drives being high.3) Women can use porn to feel empowered while men are shamed.4) You think you can make women relate by making a comparison to eating ice cream and overeating.5) You insist lying is the more harmless option by saying women who get upset are overreacting.OK let's address these individually.1) The most common reason men cite for porn use, or for cheating for that matter, is a much higher sex drive than women. And frequently the need for variety is in there, along with a more visual orientation. But the funny thing is, most women I've talked to have a high sex drive. Many women on this very site who have problems with porn complain about dwindling sex on the part of the man. And here's the kicker, nearly every study that's come out on the subject shows that as restraints on women's sexuality are going away (being outcast socially for enjoying sex or having multiple partners) it's been as close as possible to proven that women have equal sex drives to men, that women are just as visually aroused as men, and that women are just as prone to cheating. We may have different sex organs, but really when it comes down to it there are no real biological differences when it comes to our drives/desires/needs.2) You claim men are ashamed of having high sex drives. But society really doesn't shame men for having high sex drives at all. In fact it encourages it. Masturbation is shamed for everyone, and I think you are mixing those two things up, but way more so on the part of women. Sex drives are sometimes shamed in everyone (thanks to early religious influences most likely) but they are way more so in women. Since basically the beginning of time women's libidos have been oppressed and punished (thus why so many have the impression that women have very low sex drives). Think about female circumcision to keep the woman faithful by removing her ability to enjoy sex. Think about the punishments on some women in the middle east if they have an affair, get raped, or even have sex outside of marriage (they can be stoned to death). If women have such a low sex drive, why all this trouble to contain her libido? Everyone is shamed for masturbation, but women's sexuality is 100x more repressed, shamed, and punished historically. Meanwhile, every TV show and movie promotes this idea of this sex drive in men that is insatiable and all conquering. I've definitely dated and talked to men who felt incredible shame (sometimes forcing themselves to do things they didn't want) for not being up for it 24/7 having this mysterious high sex drive. It's even more pronounced when you talk to guys who are ashamed and embarrassed to admit they don't use porn.3) Since women are shamed for masturbating extremely harshly, generally any indication of masturbation, a sex drive, anything of the sort is shamed. The only reason this "empowerment" on the part of women appears to exist (mostly to men) is because women feel pressure from men (like yourself) to like and accept porn. Sure, some women (around 30%) use and like porn. But mostly women do not. However, because men call us prude, controlling, uptight bitches (or say we overreact and are irrational) when we don't want to accept porn, frequently destroying relationships due to our inability to accept porn, we feel an immense pressure to like porn. Therefore this empowerment you seem to see is more likely women trying to make themselves more attractive by broadcasting their "love" of porn (obviously not all, but many do). We also don't want to be dumped, rejected, or "force" our partners to lie, a fear that this post is pretty seriously reinforcing. As well, the vibrator comparison is moot. A vibrator is much more comparable to you using lube since it doesn't involve another man (we're not talking dildos here). If a man wants a woman to give up a vibrator, he should be more than willing to throw out the hand lotion or lube.4) The fact that you even attempt to make a comparison between men using porn and women overeating shows a pretty significant lack of understanding of the problem. First off, it's stereotyping women as that sad chick flick woman sitting around crying and eating ice cream all day. Second off, overeating is not primarily a female problem and the two things are not related. Eating a lot of ice cream doesn't generally hurt your partner, and has no effect on a relationship whatsoever. Basically it's a ridiculous comparison.5) The fact that you interpret a woman getting upset over discovering her partner is lying about porn as overreacting further shows that you completely lack an understanding of how it can feel. I'm not talking about killing her partner (I've heard of women killing themselves) as that's just total lunacy having nothing to do with porn, just crazy. A lot of people would go, wow I guess women "whining" and getting super upset (like killing themselves) is proof of how hurtful and harmful pornography can be on a relationship. It's not crazy female irrationality. It hurts. I can't tell you how many men I have heard talk about how ridiculous it is when women get angry over porn, only to say within the same conversation, how mad they'd be at her if they discovered she was using it as well. I have heard women say discovering porn use can be MORE upsetting than cheating. I am convinced that a lot of men genuinely think women are just so completely different than they are, that they literally feel things and think about things completely differently. We don't.Basically what it comes down to has nothing to do with gender, it has everything to do with being selfish and wanting to justify your need to do something you know hurts a lot of women by claiming it's a gender difference, when it isn't.
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