A
female
age
36-40,
anonymous
writes:I was on a first date with this guy and we went to see a movie, then had dinner at a Chinese restaurant. We're both students. He is a year older than me. So, he bought the movie tickets online, then announced the price out loud - "so it's 22.50 for both of us" he said. After he announced the price, I took out a 10 dollar bill, handed it to him and took it. However, I was totally unimpressed. Then we went for dinner and it was about 40.0 bucks for both of us. Again, out of good manners, I took out a 20.00 bill and offered it to him. He took it. I was really hoping, since this is our first date that he'd insist to pay for at least the dinner - we didn't even go to an expensive restaurant (my choice). I was totally unimpressed, but I wonder if I did wrong by offering to split the bill at the first place? This is not my first date ever, but usually most guys would say "don't worry, I got it" at least on a first date. I do not expect the guy to pay my bills and usually a relationship is split 50/50. I wonder what others think about this situation?Is the guy a complete loser or am I just being too demanding? Reply to this Question
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (18 June 2010): why dont you pay? why is custom that men pay?
and have you thought that he might be broke? like you said he's a student
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reader, anonymous, writes (17 June 2010): Poster - excellent reply, I do like a good debate!Personally, I am with you. I think a man who doesn't pay on a first date is a total cheap lowlife, as long as it is a proper date and not just a friendship thing. My best friend is female and she always insists on paying her own way when we go out, no matter what we are doing. At Christmas, I actually had a go at her about it and said "look, for once, will you just let me PAY for us to have a nice evening" because I really LIKE treating my friends, particularly my female friends who, very often, don't earn a goodly wage. And I do think it is dreadful that women doing similar jobs are still paid on average less than men. However, I do think there needs to be a sensible balance so that women who scream for equality get equality and not positive discrimination. For instance, the women complained for years at Wimbledon Tennis Championships that they received less prize money than the men, and eventually it was brought to an identical level. And yet the women still only play 3 sets when the men play 5. That's NOT equality! Soon - calm down! I am as far from a male chauvinist as you could possibly find. What I didn't like was the sweeping generalisation that ANY man who earned less than a woman was a bum and I was able to use my own experience as an example.
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reader, anonymous, writes (17 June 2010): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionTo anonymous:
You have a point - there are certain situations, fields and professions which are better paid than others.
But if you compare your ex-gf with the her male counterparts of the same age and education, it is possible that she is making less than them on average. That is because the statistics show that for the same age, education, job positions, women tend to negotiate less for a potential salary than men and tend to accept a lower figure. I hope that awareness is raised about this issue and women start being provided with some training to develop negotiation skills in the future.
You also raise another point that relationships do not always happen between people of the same field, education, age. In this case, as long as you are working the same amount of hours or more, then you're not a bum. I personally would not mind if my bf happens to make a little bit less than me.
Then the question again is: who should pay for the first date, who should pay more or should it be split equal over the course of the relationship...etc..
Well to answer this question, I think that more factors come to play other than the proportion of income each one receives.
Natural:
1) Men need and like to chase, pursue, and impress the woman that they like. And you want to get into OUR pants, not the other way around. That's an old tail! And while there are other ways to impress a woman, paying on first date is probably the most classical way to show a woman that you like her. It pretty much implies that even if you do not have a lot of money, you are willing to spend those money on her instead of on other things. That is something that I would really appreciate in a guy and of course after wards, we'd split everything 50/50, but at least he has past the exam that he is not some kind of mama's boy looking to use a gf financially.
2) Women like to feel special in order to fall in love with you. Therefore, you must do something to impress her once and a while and it may involve you sacrificing a bit of your own part. You may feel that it is not fair that she is making so much money, while you're struggling to meet ends and still have to pay for her, but trust me in the long run, landing on such a woman is a good thing. Once you've settled with her, she will contribute a good amount of money to the relationship and that will make your life easier. It would be worth jumping a few hoops at the beginning.
Finally, I'd like to hear others opinions on the subject, because I might be wrong.
Concerning who pays for the wedding, I think it is culture-specific, just like wedding rituals are. Personally, I would be happy if both parties contribute what they can with their best intentions.
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reader, anonymous, writes (17 June 2010): Soon - I guess things must be different in other countries, but in the UK, traditionally it is the bride's father who pays for the wedding.
Anonymous - I have never heard anything so ridiculous in my life as your statement: "a man has no excuse to be making less than a woman, unless he is a bum". So much for equality! My former partner and I were both educated to the same degree level, she was in legal I was in public relations. But as she was 10 years older than I was, she had quite a headstart on me. In fact, I worked longer hours than she did. You saying I am a bum? Get in the real world. There are many fields which require lengthy training or experience but which do not necessarily pay fantastically way - working for charities, working in the arts - although again, perhaps we're just backwards in the UK. Life ain't fair - that's why nurses get paid much less than the majority of jobs in the UK despite them working their asses off. Are all nurses (male or female) "bums" or stupid for doing this?
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reader, anonymous, writes (17 June 2010): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionDear anonymous:
a) I went out with the guy because I think that there is nothing to lose from going out on a date, except maybe some time but in general, it is usually a good experience. I also wanted to see the particular movie for a very long time. b)I enjoyed the discussion and I liked addressing people's comments. I didn't feel like I was bothering anyone by continuing to post. I kept providing more details about my position because people asked particular questions. I am through with this guy. If you've noticed the blog has shifted to other topics for past few days.
To answer your particular question about the situation where the woman happens to make twice as much as the man, I think that she should not pay for more than half of the relationship bills. On a first date, the man should still pay for her.
Just because she is working hard and has educated herself, while the guy is sitting at home, being a bum, doesn't mean that she should pay more because she is making more than him. That is because a man has no excuse to be making less than a woman, unless he is a bum. You don't agree?
If in fact such a couple gets married - then yes, she would be contributing twice more than the man. If such an agreement works for her, then that's up to her. Personally, I think that such a relationship situation encourages men to be even lazier than they naturally are.
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reader, anonymous, writes (16 June 2010): Soon - what on earth are you talking about? Traditionally it is the bride's father who pays for a wedding. Not the groom or his family. Dunno where you get the idea that the man or his family "always" pay. Anyway, I agree this guy is cheap. From what he said to you and what you said to us, I don't understand a) why you went out with him in the first place and b) you keep coming back to us with more thoughts to try and justify your position. It's irrelevant to us. You asked our opinions, we've given it, let it go. I would like to know, however, when you say that men on average earn 35% more than women, whether you feel that, during my last relationship, where my female partner earned TWICE what I did, whether she should therefore have always paid more than half on our dates?
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female
reader, Tisha-1  +, writes (16 June 2010):
 It certainly doesn't sound like he's wooing you. It sounded more like a couple of friends going out and splitting the bill. Maybe he decided he wasn't going to spend any money on a lost cause?
I cannot resist commenting on this: ..."hmm, I wonder if I should shave my body hair off for Saturday" Um. Ew. Um, that's WAY presumptuous for a first date. It is not charming and cute, it is doubly gross! First, it implies that he's so hairy it's a problem; second, it implies that he thinks you're going to sleep with him on the first date.
The way I see it, you dodged a loser. Spend no more time analyzing this guy, he was off (like bad milk) from the start.
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female
reader, raiders +, writes (16 June 2010):
 To be honest if you hang out with cheap looser you will most likely be stuck with the bill. Remember when dating a guy if he keeps ditching the bill most likely he is not a good catch.
When you go out with friends you should cover your half and not to expect a guy to cover your portion.
It still classy for a man to pay for a first date, regardless of equal rights.
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reader, anonymous, writes (16 June 2010): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionAlright, but we don't yet live in a perfect world where women make near the same as men. The truth is that for the same education and position, men still make on average 35% more than women, so don't use the fact that we want equal rights as an excuse to be cheap... When the world actually gets equal, then we can talk again, but I think that this is far from today...
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reader, anonymous, writes (16 June 2010): Women cant have it both ways - men do the dishes AND open doors for you? Sorry - doesnt work like that. You want equal right - then pony up when then check comes.....
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male
reader, anonymous, writes (15 June 2010): i think the way hes done it is is wrong but this is the 21st and women want equal rights and equal pay (which i dont argue with) so i believe you should go halves, or take turns in paying for things.
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reader, anonymous, writes (14 June 2010): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionMarieclair and raiders - you do have a point. I did make it clear that we are just friends for now, but that is because he was saying things like ..."hmm, I wonder if I should shave my body hair off for Saturday". (Sat was our "date"). Well, when someone says something like that while you're trying to get to know them, it could be a little creepy, as in implying expectations. So I said ..."umm...we're just friends, eh? We're going to meet for a first time on Sat. Let's plan what we can do together."
I didn't know how else to convey the message that maybe nothing can come out of this date, and so I told him that we're just going to perhaps start as friends.
Either way, it would have been nice for him to offer to pay for at least the dinner if he was hoping for us to become more than friends.
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female
reader, raiders +, writes (14 June 2010):
Your were out as friends and made it clear to him that it was not a date so I don't think he should have been stuck with the bill. If he is trying to date you well he started out in the wrong foot but in fairness this was not a date, so no I don't think he is a looser.
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reader, anonymous, writes (14 June 2010): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThanks again for the numerous comments!
I will address some of them:
Carrot2000: You are right, even if he had paid the whole date, I probably would have not dated him because I was physically or emotionally non-attracted and I knew that even before the date. So I offered to pay my half out of good manners and to make sure that he doesn't have any expectations at the end. However, by allowing me to pay, he sort of ruined even the little respect I had for him as a person and all chances of him ever being anything more than a friend. I think that if I were the guy, I would have at least insisted to pay for the dinner even just for my own ego as a man!
Marieclair: If a guy wants to date a girl, then insisting to pay her bill would be one way to make sure that he is not perceived as just a friend, right? And since he met me on a dating website, then it is logical to assume he'd be looking for more than friendship.
q1695: No, I didn't sleep with him. I didn't even kiss him. I wanted to leave the scene immediately. The whole "date" felt like a complete waste of time to me.
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female
reader, Carrot2000 +, writes (14 June 2010):
 If he is acting all desperate and freaking you out, you really DO want to pay for your own meal. The last thing you need is some nutjob thinking he's your man because he bought you a meal off the value.
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male
reader, Sorcerer  +, writes (14 June 2010):
Throwing another thought into the pot...
You've now said you told him the 'date' was as 'friends'. In which case, it was not a 'date'. If 'friends' go out to a movie or a meal, generally 'friends' pay their own way or split it down the middle.
I had a date last week. She asked me out, but I paid for everything because I feel that's what a chap should do. She did offer to pay for something, but I wouldn't let her. In subsequent dates, things may be different. But I don't think it matters who asks who - generally, on a first date, I think the man should pay.
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female
reader, CindyCares  +, writes (14 June 2010):
 In these circumstances,probably not.
I say probably rather than certainly because I have noticed time and again as " I have my own company " is often a code phrase for " I have no reliable,documentable source of income ". Then again, true, if he's broke that's his problem,not yours.
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reader, anonymous, writes (14 June 2010): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThanks everyone for the responses. Well to answer some of your questions :
We met on a dating website, where he contacted me first. Ever since I added him on msn, he constantly tried to initiate conversation with me all the time. Then we agreed to meet up as in on a date, but I told him before the date that for now we're just friends...because he seemed a bit desperate and it was freaking me out. So to answer your question on who invited who on date - I think it was sort of mutual.
Second, he is apparently "self employed" and has his own company that does R&D for other high tech companies. He lives at home with his parents. He is 25. He is doing a Master's in Artificial intelligence.
He has only has ever had 1 gf, whom he also met online and who was from a different country. He went to visit her 3 times and on the 3rd time she dumped him for another dude.
On the other hand, I am living on my own and paying rent and bills off this research grant that I have. I am doing my Master's degree right now too. I am 24.
So, judging by those circumstances and the fact that it was a first date, CindyCares, do you still think that it was the appropriate thing to do to split the bill?
As Lexie88 said, he might have intended to pay for me if I didn't offer to pay. This is why I wonder if I did anything wrong by offering to pay. As soon567 said, some guys may feel insulted if a girl tries to pay her half on a first date. Well, the fact that 1) He announced the movie price out loud, then took the money offered and 2) did not resist sharing the dinner bill just really really did not impress me.
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (14 June 2010): Yes I would not be happy. A image of the future perhaps?
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female
reader, CindyCares +, writes (14 June 2010):
I am gonna be a bit more indulgent than the other Aunts.
True, it's the man that should pay on a first date.
But this applies to people with real jobs . A student ?
Even if yours was an unexpensive date,it still amounted to over 60 bucks. I suppose 60 bucks can make a relevant dent in a student's budget. And it's not realistic to expect he gives up going out with girls until he can afford to offer ( even if that would be the correct choice ).
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female
reader, carebare +, writes (14 June 2010):
Wow... If he asked you and didn't pay for at least dinner on your FIRST date... He really doesn't deserve another date. A lot of my guy friends say they appreciate when a girl OFFERS to split because they like the gesture but they insist on paying, at least for the first few dates... This guy is just so... cheap...
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male
reader, CaringGuy +, writes (14 June 2010):
If he asked you out, then it would have been nice for him to pick the bill up. And if he really couldn't afford it, then he could have said beforehand. But to announce in front of everyone what the price is was way too far. He's way to cheap for my liking.
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (14 June 2010): I used to date a guy who paid for everyting simply cos he was raised that way and had more money that me - but it felt insulting and i didn't like it. Sure it was nice to be spoilt but that was not why i was with him. I feel dating, even first dates, the bill should be split because if you have agreed on activities then you should know how much money you are going to need. It shouldn't come as a shock that a man doesn't want to pay for everything. However i do think it rude he say it rather loudly but maybe he's been on dates where he tried to be subtle but it had little effect. From the first date, he's emstablishing an equal split ... (a side from rudeness) i think he's perfectly right to want you to pay up.
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male
reader, anonymous, writes (14 June 2010): He is not a gentleman.Tell him to get lost if he asks you for another date.
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female
reader, Lexie88  +, writes (14 June 2010):
 If HE asked YOU out then he should have paid, no questions asked. I assume he's about your age, and unless you're his first date ever, I'd expect that he'd know the deal.
But let me give you a different slant on this. You ask if you did anything wrong by offering to split the bill. I don't see that you did, but he didn't ask you to pay half did he? He said it's 22.50 for both of you and you gave him 10. Although he took it, it doesn't mean that he initially meant that you should pay your own bit. Perhaps when you offered 10 he didn't think that he should decline it and maybe he thought you would be offended if he didn't take it. You then paid 20 for the dinner again and he didn't question it.
Just because he took the money doesn't mean he's a cheapskate. Maybe he doesn't have enough dating experience to know the etiquette and the manners he should display when on a date.
Did you like him enough to give him a second chance? Let him ask you out again, and next time don't offer to pay. Wait and see if he asks you for half.
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female
reader, YouWish +, writes (14 June 2010):
 The big question for me is, who asked who out on this date? Did you ask him out, or did he ask you??
If you asked him out, I would tend to overlook it a little, but if he was the one who asked you out, it's totally unacceptable. On the 20th date, Dutch is okay, but on a first date?! The guy who asked you out should pay.
The Realist hit it right on the head with this one.
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male
reader, The Realist +, writes (14 June 2010):
 He was really immature when he decided to announce the cost like that. The only time I would ever mention it is if the girl was never paying for anything but if he said nothing prior to this date about splitting the cost it is implied that he is going to pay. I wouldn't see him again unless you really want to give him another chance. On the guys side in general i would pay for things and if she never puts any effort into it then it would an issue. Personally I like to pay things but a true relationship isn't a one way street.
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