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female
age
41-50,
anonymous
writes: Im in a bit of a dilemma. I met a guy online for the first time Saturday. We got in really well talking. He was late and texted me on the way. Then he turned up and hadn't shaved or had his hair cut or ironed his shirt. Hes a nice looking guy so he could look great. He explained that his hair grew really fast and joked about needing it cut regularly. We went for a second drink and he asked if I wanted to buy it as women have said they don't like him paying for everything. I said I would get the next drinks. It got to 9pm and I said I was hungry. He wasn't so I asked if we could get some chips. He offered to pay which was fine but I fekt sad he wasnt looking after me. He said the time fkew and he didn't realise. Then for our second date I waited to see what he would come up with. He suggested a drink but then said he was making a batch of chicken curry for the next few days and could he come round later with some in his car. I then saw red. I said it would have been nice if he had a shave and haircut and cleaned van so I could sit in it. I didn't expect a lot and paid for a couple of drinks on our first date. Just the offer of a pub meal would have been nice. He now sees me as judgemental and I see him as not making the effort and feel hurt. He said he's willing to change but if these basics are not there now is there hope? We get on great so far apart from this. I'm not looking for a meal ticket and am an independent woman. I have told him this. Can people change?
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female
reader, CindyCares  +, writes (15 May 2014):
 I only agree 50 % with most of the ladies.
I.e. I agree that you did not handle this too well, and that you were really too heavy-handed for a first date. You should not presume that you can take a perfect stranger to task if his looks / habits do not meet your standards.
I think the best way to go about these things, it's to decide in advance which are your deal breakers. If being scruffy is a deal breaker for you, then you have already seen enough of him. If it's not a total deal breaker ( and you can deal with scruffy , as long as he has other redeeming qualities ), you give him a chance, just wait and see . And if you should click and get to know each other better, THEN it's the time, not to demand a looks / personality make over, but to suggest, kindly, desirable changes : you know, John, you've got good hair, this haircut does not really do any justice to it , what about a shorter cut .
After all, you would not want to go on a blind date and be met with : hey , you did not touch up your hair roots, what is it, too broke for hair dye ?
You are strangers , there are limits to what you can and should say.
Also, he's your date not your babysitter, I don't think he's supposed to check all the time if you are thirsty, you are hungry, you've got to go pee. If you are hungry, - just order yourself some food or some snack or whatever. If he offers to pay for that too, that's gracious,- if not, that's fine too, you can pay for your own food, can't you ?, and it was a drinks date anyway.
Other than that, too, I see you are taking quite some flak as if you were some uberprincess with unrealistic standards and extraordinary expectations,- I disagree about that strongly.
One thing is being laid back, all another being a careless slob. Respecting average standards of hygiene and presentability is not a choice, or an optional, if one lives in a social context and wants to have a social- and dating - life among other people. No, it's not his business only ,if his van his dirty and looks like a rat's nest, it is his business until he drives in it by himself, if he want to have another person in it, markedly his date , it's an elementary measure of respect. Ditto for shaving. Shaving is not some fancy beauty precedure like having a coconut oil facial, it's basic maintenance ( unless you always have a beard, of course ). You shower, you brush your teeth, you shave. Normal routine. It's the weekend and you want to stay at home and be a little lazy ? OK. But if you are going out to meet somebody, anybody but most of all your date, then get off your butt, shave, change out of your sweet soaked shirt , check that you don't have under your nails enough dirt you plant flowers in it, etc... in short do your BASIC MAINTENANCE, it's an elementary show of respect for your interlocutor.
And as for bringing to your place a batch of homememade food, for your second date ? Sorry, I can't see that as sweet and romantic at all ! To me, that's totally inappropriate. First, how does he presume to come to your place at the second date ,without you inviting him or even remotely suggesting it ?, I think that if one is serious about getting to know a person calmly, in due time, he is perfectly OK with having at least the first dates in neutral public places, if he suggest instant cozyness and homey intimacy, 95 % it's just because he does not want to waste time ( or money ) and he's looking for a quick shortcut to your bed. Second, he's bringing the food, but SHE would be setting the table, and cleaning up and tidying up and throwing the trash after , when he's gone, how romantic ! for a second date. No, it's really not a great idea, UNLESS two people want to be alone in a very private setting, so the food is just the " excuse " for that. Third, I know that I just said a woman should not expect to be babysat, and I confirm it, so she should not even expect to be always entertained and impressed and amused and shown around , but, again, it's the second date !, do you please want to at least TRY and come up with something sligtly more fun ,sligthly more interesting than having the girl sit at home ( her home ) on her own sofa , where she probably is already sitting anyway with or without your chicken curry !?
Conclusion, IMO : no, you should not have scolded him anyway, even if he did or say things you did not particularly care for. At this stage, he has no particular obligations to you to act in a certain way . You can only decide if you can live with these certain things or not.
Yes, he sounds like a slob, and he is not making any effort other than bringing prematurely himself and his chicken curry into your house .
Should you pursue this thing nonetheless ? It depends. You do sound not very compatible, and he is not up to some of your ( quite reasonable, in my opinion ) standards. But, like I said at the beginning, only you can know what you saw in this guy, there must be something in him that you like , for even having accepted to go out with him. So- accepting the inevitable fact that nobody is perfect - is only up to you to decide if his good qualities would make up sufficiently for his imperfections. BEFORE any changes, and without COUNTING on changes. People change some times- if THEY want, and not just because you want them to, or you ask them to. So, you'll have to decide if he's worth your time as he is now.
A
female
reader, mystiquek  +, writes (15 May 2014):
 Many people make the mistake of going into or being in a relationship thinking " Oh (John) would be so great IF ONLY...." The truth is, you should love someone as they are..not as you WANT them to be. In the end, it won't work if you want them to be someone they aren't.
My guy only dressed up when he had to go to meetings or speak. He normally wore too loose jeans, sneakers, and a baseball cap and always kind of looked like he rolled out of bed. The man was a brilliant doctor but you'd never ever know to look at him. I loved him just as he was because he was kind, generous funny and a very sweet man. Oh he cleaned up REALLY nice but that isn't why I loved him. I loved what he was and how he treated me. I knew he had the potential to look like a million bucks every day, but the point is he didn't want to...he was comfortable as he was...Don't make the mistake of trying to change a person, it doesn't work.
I just don't think that the two of you are compatible. I think he's more laid back than you are and unless you change your expectations things won't work.
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A
female
reader, Anonymous 123 +, writes (15 May 2014):
 When I first went out with my boyfriend, I noticed that he hadn't ironed his shirt. I paid for the lunch because he didn't even offer but I was already fuming inwardly. Then when we sat down to eat, he was literally shoveling food into his mouth and I'm thinking, "alright, this is it, I am SO done with him!" Once we finished eating, I told him that maybe we should go for a walk because I wanted to break it to him gently that I couldn't date him but hey lets be friends...you know...the I-like-you-but-I-dont-love-you speech. Little did I know that that one walk would literally be a walk to remember because that changed everything in my life and I know now that I couldn't have wanted anyone else more than him. Beyond that exterior was a good, kind man who loves me more than anyone else in the world.
I think you too should give the guy a chance OP, maybe he's a nice guy. I think you two just have different ways of looking at things. You prefer someone who takes the effort to look good, offers to buy you dinner, treats you like a lady. He's more laid back, doesn't really care about his looks, and doesnt mind the woman paying.
If you really think that his traits are deal-breakers then just stop going out with him but if you think that you can connect to him and this could lead somewhere then don't just let it go for the sake of a dirty van or messy hair. You can always talk to him about these things later; not on the second date! If you still feel that he doesn't live up to your expectations then just wish him well and leave.
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A
male
reader, RevMick  +, writes (15 May 2014):
 Hi,
I'm really sorry but loosing your temper because, he isn't up to your standards?
And who are you again? As far as I see it, you aren't his mother, partner, girlfriend or even friend. You went on a date with someone and now all of a sudden he doesn't match up to your expectations.
I think he was genuinely sweet for offering to bring some home cooked food for you. I'll let you in on a secret, men just like women don't know the etiquette before hand of what 'paying' is.
Some women and men do it 50/50, some women like to pay for everything, some men like to pay for everything. It isn't set in stone somewhere.
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A
female
reader, Honeypie +, writes (15 May 2014):
 Wow, I think you have totally unrealistic expectations for a guy you don't even know.
So he wasn't clean shaven or had a fresh hair cut? seriously? First of all he wasn't entering Mr. UK. I get that you would have LIKED if he had put more of an EFFORT into how he looked on his first date with you, but have you considered he might be LESS uptight then you are? Maybe he wanted the date to be a little more casual (as it was in a PUB)? NOT a fancy restaurant.
You get hungry at a pub and you sit there WAITING for him to wait on you hand and foot? Sorry lady, you are OLD enough to say, hey I'm hungry I'm going to order ME some food. And then be ready to pay for it. AGAIN, your first date was at a PUB.
I DO think that it was a sweet gesture for him to offer a home-cooked meal, but I DO think you (general you) having more dates in public before, cooking or eating at each other's houses.
My questions is, can YOU change?
If you keep having these expectations of guys you date you are going to end up with a LONG string of first dates. Because you come off as some schoolmarm, who is taking notes and telling a guy is isn't measuring up.
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A
female
reader, YouWish +, writes (15 May 2014):
 You scolded him on the second date???
I think you don't know what dates are for, actually. Dates are for meeting someone, getting to know them better, and seeing if they are relationship material. Some of them are, some aren't.
Dates AREN'T for meeting a guy, deciding that you want to change him into YOUR expectations of who he should be and what you want out of him. Dates aren't like customizing a car and adding or taking away features.
There *is* no right or wrong way on a date, except for if he was flirting with other women or sexually pressuring you. He's not compatible for you. Some women would love a guy who's a bit more earthy rough and not preppy, and many women would jump for joy at finding a guy who is a good cook. Some women are unconventional. When I was single, I'd *love* that in a guy, (longer hair and beards) and my favorite kind of dates were chasing severe weather in a car, eating "stakeout" food for the occasion (whatever we grabbed quick from a grocery store).
Never scold a guy for who he is. You simply make a decision on whether to date him again or not. You didn't like that he didn't wine and dine you or have a more traditional approach to how dates go, and that's okay! You can't harangue HIM into becoming that for you...you can only find a guy who is that more naturally.
I think you sabotaged this relationship. He could have done cartwheels for you, but you can't change a guy. You either decide if he is for you AS IS, or move on. Scolding does make you judgmental as you have decided that what you like is right and everything else is wrong.
Finally, you said "Hes a nice looking guy so he could look great." Truthfully, he needs a girl who already DOES think he looks great.
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A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (15 May 2014): I agree with llifton. You barely know the guy and already you are trying to change him! He sounds nice and I don't think it's fair to nag him on your first couple of dates. I think the homemade food thing sounds cute! And of his car wasn't too tidy, at least he was being himself instead of trying to put a front on for you. If he made all this effort and then you fall for him eventually and then he started to be himself - it would be harder for you to let go of the fact that he made an effort in the beginning. Accept him for who he is and if you get along well, go with that!
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A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (15 May 2014): I think this guy needs to put in waaaaay more effort. "He was late and texted me on the way." If a guy is late, the least he can do is buy your drinks or even offer to buy you dinner. If that was me and he was late, I would be gone after the first drink if he didn't offer to pay.What did this guy's profile picture look like? If his hair was a lot shorter in the photo and he didn't have facial hair, I would have confronted him right there (in a friendly way of course) "Your hair is a lot shorter in your pictures, how come?" You can't expect their hair to be exactly the same length as it is in their profile picture, but if he looks like a hairy ape, you have to say something about why it looks completely different. Do guys iron their shirts these days? Maybe it would be best to go for an office worker who is used to wearing pressed shirts. I live on the coast so it's rare to see guys iron their shirts unless it's a formal dinner or a proper night out.I definitely think he is being tight with money....what guy doesn't offer to get dinner on a second date? And no you're not looking for a meal ticket....it's a second date! He SHOULD buy you dinner. When I'm hungry, I'm just forward and I say "I'm hungry, let's order something." I never make him pay, I just say "Did you want me to get mine?" and if he says "yes" that's the last date for me. A guy should be a real man and buy dinner on the first couple of dates. Especially if he's asked you out. YOU have agreed to him asking you on a 2nd date after he was late the first...HE should be lucky that he got a 2nd date with you. He's asked you out again, he pays. That's the way I see it.He made a batch of chicken curry? Pulleeassee! That's his way of saying, I'm too tight to buy dinner, so I'll take the cheap option and make it myself. And we'll eat it at your place so I don't have to clean up the mess.In my opinion, there is no hope. Clearly this guy is not on the same level as you. I would say thank you for the dates and move on. You need a man that is on time, will buy you dinner and drinks and even offer to make you chicken curry at his place with a nicely set table and some wine and even a candle.You're better than that Miss!
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A
female
reader, llifton +, writes (15 May 2014):
 If the guy doesn't want to cut his hair or shave his beard, that's his own business. Maybe he likes his hair like that! And if his car is a bit messier than your standards, once again, it's his business to keep his car how he likes. He also sounded very sincere in offering to bring you some home-cooked food. That's a very sweet and romantic gesture, in my opinion. I don't get why that would remotely offend you.
I'm going to sound like a bitch here, but I completely agree with him - you come across as extremely judgmental, high maintainance, and actually quite rude. He doesn't need to change anything for you. He doesn't even know you! If someone commented on my hair and how I needed to cut it on our first date, I'd say "nice meetin' ya!" I'm not changing anything about me for someone else. I think you need to relax and tone it down just a bit. Or find a man who already is exactly the way you like him to be - not one you have to try to train. Let the guy be who he is and stop trying to change him on your second date.
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