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male
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41-50,
dirtball
writes:I write this article knowing full well it will not be received very well by some. I can only hope that this article will still be allowed due to the merits of the argument I am presenting. I have noticed on multiple occasions a prevalent double standard here in the advice certain individuals receive. I’m not saying that this is a person telling another to do something they wouldn’t themselves. I’m not even saying that people give advice that is inconsistent with what they always say. I refer more to the fact that when an argument is made from either a male or female perspective, it influences the advice the individual is given. Am I calling out the board for being sexist? No. I don’t believe it’s that at all. I think it has more to do with the basic gender stereotypes. However, I’ll get into that more shortly. My goal here is to show an example of this gender bias and hopefully explain part of why I believe it happens. I also hope to point this out so that people may take it into consideration and it helps them with the advice they give.A little over a week ago, a man came here with a question regarding a problem of inequality in his sex life. Here is a link: http://www.dearcupid.org/question/she-wont-go-down-on-me.html. The advice he received was quite standard for a man in his situation. To summarize, he was told he had unfair expectations and should be grateful for what he gets. This didn’t sit right with me, and I stated so in that thread. I hypothesized something in that thread as well. If the genders were switched, I bet people would be ready to lynch the partner who in this thread was being defended simply because of this gender bias. I then set out to test that hypothesis.Waiting a little time so that the previous thread was no longer super fresh in people’s minds, I conducted an experiment. I will apologize now to the board for using you to test my hypothesis, and I hope my purpose helps mitigate any ill feelings you may have toward me for doing it. I posted the question above again, however I changed the sex of the people involved. I modified as few words as possible to keep the message identical. Here is a link: http://www.dearcupid.org/question/he-wont-go-down-on-me-anymore.html. As I suspected, the “boyfriend” was now selfish and a jerk. Even though “he” was no different than the woman in the original post.So, that begs the question of WHY? Why does this happen? Is it blatant sexism at work? Is it an underlying tone? Is it personal experience clouding people’s perspective? I hope to address this here.Is it blatant sexism at work? I do not believe that to be the case. In fact, I believe that’s a gross simplification of what’s going on. Is it an underlying tone? Possibly, but this is due to other factors that I will discuss here shortly. Is it personal experience coming to play? Absolutely, but is that a bad thing? Yes and no. Yes, because it adds a bias. When you identify with a poster, or someone involved, you are no longer objective. It becomes personal and your advice becomes a projection of your feelings. “So, dirtball, that sounds pretty bad, what could possibly be good about it?” Well, without personal experiences, we’re left with nothing but conjecture. Having lived through a situation gives a person a unique perspective that can only be gotten first hand. This input is incredibly valuable to a situation, even if it causes bias to influence advice that’s given.What I believe to be the cause of this dichotomy is a combination of gender stereotypes and our own personal perceptions changing our objectivity. What does that mean? In the realm of sex, it can be safely assumed that men are typically viewed as the aggressors. While I know that is not always the case, it can’t be denied either. Because of this, male and female questions are treated differently, especially in cases where a partner does not share the same level of sexual desire. I think this plays a big role in why people receive differential advice in this area. It’s also because in our lives, many of us experience both sides of this coin, but some of us only one. When we identify with one side of a story, it can make you feel like you have to prove why YOU were right. Like you’re reliving your experience. It’s very important that we remember this is not US in the post, no matter how much it may make us feel like it is. My hope is, that by pointing this out, people will take a second and step out of themselves. We need to remember to look at the situation as a whole. Consider how we’d advise someone if we took their gender out of the equation. It will make us better advisors.I welcome all comments, it is my hope you will share your thoughts about this.Respectfully,Dirtball.
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female
reader, based51  +, writes (4 April 2011):
 I know its been a while since anyone commented but I just thought I'd bring what I think to the table.I'd agree that it's not actual intentional sexism but more deep seated views that people have about men and women regarding sex. I guess in a way it comes down to evolution and our natural biological differences. In really simple, basic terms, it is women who get pregnant and have babies and are normally the prime caregivers. Therefore they are expected by most in society to be pickier about their mate choices. Men on the other hand, suffer the prospect of pregnancy to a much lesser degree and most societies seem to accept male promiscuousness much more readily than they do women. There are therefore deep seated stereotypes that men are more 'sexed,' and willing for sex than women are, and so when we are presented with a problem where the man in a relationship is not properly satisfying his woman most will assume that he's just selfish or there's something wrong with him.Throughout history a woman's body has been depicted as a sacred thing. The virginity and purity of a woman has always been much more emphasised than the same things for a man. When a couple eventually has sex, it usually happens because the woman has finally succumbed to a man's advances (that's a generalisation I know, but before modern times it would very rarely be the case that a woman would instigate things). Therefore, all throughout time a woman having sex with a man has been seen as her giving him a very special gift. This is so embedded that I doubt the idea is completely gone even though things are different now. So when a man complains that a woman will not go down on him he is often seen as beast like because he should be pleased that a woman is even agreeing to have sex with him. But when a woman allows a man to get close enough to her to go down on her, and he doesn't, it's almost seen as an insult. Men are seen as always ready and always wanting sexual things - generally it is thought that when a woman decides to allow a man to share sexual experiences with her he should be extremely enthusiastic and do everything expected of him because he has been given a 'gift.'It seems that there's still this deep seated opinion that women are pure, harmless creatures and that if she doesn't want to do sexual things with her man, then her man complaining about it is someone trying to steal her innocence and spoil her. But when a woman wants sexual satisfaction and her man will not meet her needs he's seen as weird or selfish. I suppose often times people do not consider that men and women might have the same issues regarding sex, and instead we view women as keepers of their bodies and purity and men as constant pursuers.
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reader, anonymous, writes (19 March 2011): Hi
...take out gender, religion, virginity, class, race and answer from the heart.
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male
reader, dirtball +, writes (18 March 2011):
dirtball is verified as being by the original poster of the question Be careful calling those biases "facts." I know plenty of women who love giving head, just as I know plenty of guys who hate giving it.
The point of this article was to point out that these biases are NOT facts, and should not be treated as facts. It's a fact that they exist, but that does not make them right, in fact it can lead to gross misjudgements about people and situations.
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reader, aAoa  +, writes (18 March 2011):
yes definitely.. Btw if you had asked me for advice on the subject " she won't go down on me" i would have said thats sad for you but maybe you should give her some time. But if a girl had said "he won't go down on me" i would have said he must be gay.. lol :P
That's because you guys claim - you love to do it- so thats what i think.. while girl's say they don't want to do it all the time- so we know where it comes from- these are facts we all know of..
what i'm saying is some of these biases are there because they are real facts..
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reader, dirtball +, writes (18 March 2011):
dirtball is verified as being by the original poster of the questionAbsolutely. Culture plays a huge role in the development of bias. It is impossible to avoid these learned roles as well. The key for me is recognizing that they exist and understanding them so that you can use them to your advantage when posting advice to someone.
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reader, aAoa +, writes (18 March 2011):
i think what i'm trying to say is that.. women are structured to think in a different way... and men are structured to think in a different way.. our view on what a woman and man is/ should be is nurtured since childhood.. by our society.. by our biology.. so we will always have biases..
for example what women don't see fair.. men do.. so when we give advices.. it is always gonna be there..
i mean you won't/can't know what a girl may think like.. cos you have been programmed by society to have different level playing fields (for lack of a better word)..
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reader, dirtball +, writes (17 March 2011):
dirtball is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThanks for the response aAoa, but it is a little off topic. To bring it on topic, think about the answer to these questions: How does what you wrote apply to the advice you see on this forum? How does it influence what you tell people?
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reader, aAoa +, writes (17 March 2011):
i think problem is society linked power with man and beauty with women.. which is how the world sadly works.. i think power and femininity do not go hand in hand.. so when a woman becomes too powerful.. its not feminine anymore.. and thats a bias.. so guys you should take control of the power factor then we all can just be feminine .. and that would be easier for everyone.. :D but guys we know you won't.. its just a load of bull crap.. :P there's no such thing as no biases.. it goes against our biology.. women are attracted to power.. men are attracted to beauty.. i hope i did not go off topic..
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reader, dirtball +, writes (3 March 2011):
dirtball is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThanks Cerberus. You make a good point about dominance versus equality. It's a shame that attitude gets reflected in a prevailing bias on this advice forum as well.
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reader, anonymous, writes (1 March 2011): Great article and very correct. I've been in a few questions like that where you and I have posted the same standpoint. People are more bias based on their personal experience but from my time here I see a trend of women in that situation getting sympathy from men from too but men in that situation only really get support from a few men and some women, there are guys who will back up the idea that the woman shouldn't have to do it but that the guys should. Of course there are plenty that are unbiased too.
You see as a history major and fanatic, I can tell you we live our history everyday, it effects everything and it always repeats itself. Now there has never, ever been a movement for equality in the history of man, not in the truest sense but in word only. The civil rights movement in the US for instance for all its rhetoric wasn't about equality it was about freeing blacks from the bonds of subjugation by whites so they could gain more rights and begin to compete for cultural, political and economic domination with whites. That is the very nature of humans, competition and it has worked the exact same way for women.
You see it's not about gender equality, it never was, it was about gender domination and that permeates everything nowadays. Feminists don't want to assert equal standing with men they want control, of their own destinies and the destiny of our race as a whole they want exert their power not equal standing. This has permeated all aspects of culture. From the Spice girls and girl power to Sex and The City and using sex as a means of gender domination (the men in that show are faceless idiots, treated like meat and used for their worth, only the men who have feminine qualities are shown in a good light in that show their gay friends, and all the boyfriends are completely inept, bumbling idiots, that look nice and as long as they are successful, have money and act nice then they have worth) that's not equality that's domination. Promoting the female gender as the dominant in our species through cultural domination and ideologies, is the name of the game.
Black culture promotes the exact same thing. R&B promotes black men as the best lovers, with most to offer women in terms of money and sex appeal. Britney, Miley et al, all prostitute their sexuality as a matter of course. It is now a virtue for a woman to use her sexuality as a means to gain success. Just look at Jordan, or Paris Hilton. You see this all makes sense when you understand that in order for a human male or female to assert control then they must dominate their position we humans are not designed for equality, otherwise we would never have survived as a species, every animal, bird, insect and fish on this planet compete to survive, equality is a human made and wholly flawed concept. No one gets through this life and succeeds by being equals because that's a fallacy no one is ever equal, we're all better than others at something and frankly you only have to look at the failure of totalitarian communism to see that is the case.
Take the Olympics for example there are no mixed gender sports in that and men still dominate that. Can anyone tell me who the fastest woman at 100 metres is without google? Not many of you. But everyone here knows who Usain Bolt is. Does anyone remember the name of the guy in One Night in Paris? No he didn't get any fame from that, in fact no guy gets famous for sex tapes, yet it's the done thing for women who want to be famous. Why is that? There are men in those videos too.
My point is recent cultural trends in Western culture all point to female sexual domination not equality. You see even in this thread historical subjugation of women is brought up as a means of explaining this trend. You see it's all well and good for Jordan to show her tits at every opportunity, she's praised by many as an astute business woman for that but then the guys who ogle her in newspapers are seen as sleazes and as guys too ready to objectify women. You see women are allowed to sell themselves as objects but then guys are criticized for viewing them that way. Yet women swooning over George Clooney is perfectly acceptable. This is gender control and domination not equality. That's a very broad and sweeping generalization I know, but it holds some merit in our society. Miley Cyrus is sexting at 14 and grinding stripper poles at the teen choice awards at 16 and is having sex under the age of consent and all it does is heighten her profile, make her more famous and make the suits that own her a hell of a lot of money.
The point I'm trying to make is that people are very quickly starting to grow into this idea of women exerting their dominance through their sexuality so when a guy asks for a blow job men and women will tell him he's an asshole that she has rights and shouldn't have to do something she doesn't want to do. When a woman asks for head she's sympathized with more often that not because she has rights and that asshole has to give it up because women are "equal" and men have had control for too long.
There will always be people with balanced views on things but we humans didn't get this far by being equal, now is the time for women to start asserting their dominance because make no mistake that's exactly what is happening. The oral sex questions are just a small sample of this dominance.
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reader, little birdie +, writes (25 February 2011):
 i totally agree with you.. i think men get the short end of the stick a lot of the time. my favorite thing to do with my husband is suck his cock. and i google ways to do it better!!!
but i think it all has to do with ones personality. some women are givers and some are not. it all has its drawbacks. from my experiences with talking to multiple people in very different kinds of relationships.. people dont want to be open and give anything because they are afraid of being taken advantage of and getting hurt.
if you love the person.. open up to them. show them sum much needed love. make the world a happier place and give sum oral! both genders please!
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reader, Jmtmj  +, writes (24 February 2011):
 Well duh... its impossible to hate pizza.
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reader, eyeswideopen +, writes (23 February 2011):
 ALL men like Italian food.
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reader, dirtball +, writes (23 February 2011):
dirtball is verified as being by the original poster of the questionI say go with Italian, then again, I'm biased because I just LOVE Italian food. ;)
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reader, Miamine  +, writes (23 February 2011):
 Yep, there is a big gender bias on this board and men seem to get the worst end. I try hard to give the same advice to both sexes, but I probably don't.
Worst is in man-man or woman-woman relationships. I managed to insult a gay man because I assumed his partner was female. I put up my hand, I'm as guilty as everyone else is.
On dear cupid, aunts and uncles seem to assume the woman is always a victim and pour unnecessary insults on innocent men. A couple of times this has been shown, where the woman complained and after the insults, the man came along and put his case.
This are not always simple as they first appear. Most stories have two sides which we should all take time to consider.
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reader, eyeswideopen +, writes (23 February 2011):
I WAS thinking about having Chinese for dinner but Italian is sounding better and better...
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reader, dirtball +, writes (23 February 2011):
dirtball is verified as being by the original poster of the questionI agree that it can be helpful, as can the experiences of people who have lived through a situation similar to what has been presented by the OP. We can't take that for granted.
To me, it all depends on the question. Some people need you to empathize with them. They need the kind of support that can only come from forming a connection with the advice giver. In those cases, we have to do whatever necessary to get through to them. In other cases, I feel a more objective view may help them. Of course, these are my views, and the approach I take. I don't think everyone should conform to these either, but in general, an understanding of what influences the advice you people is helpful across the board. At least in my eyes.
Basically what I'm saying is know yourself so you can better help others. If something sets you off, then avoid that, so it doesn't taint your advice. If you've experienced something, understand how that gives you a unique perspective and use that to help someone going through the same thing. Yup, self awareness is key.
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reader, angelDlite +, writes (22 February 2011):
 IMO it is sometimes better if someone of the opposite sex answers a question because they can give advice from a more similar perspective to the OPs partner (in the absence of the OP being able to communicate and resolve the matter with their partner) when men and women post questions on here, you can bet that a lot of them have already asked their friends already, who will more often than not be the same sex as the OP.
whatever the reasons are for the bias, dirtball i for one am glad that you brought this matter up. i hope that we can all stop and think next time we answer questions whether it be about oral or anything else for that matter! and try to not be biased :)
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reader, Jmtmj +, writes (22 February 2011):
Well the way I see it is that it’s incredibly hard to find a post that doesn’t involve some part of a person’s own experiences in it. I’m more likely to post on something that I’m passionate about or have some experience on. There are things that I post on, feeling positive that I’m right about, only to have a female follow up with a point of view that just blows me out of the water! As frustrating as it can be to be caught with your pants down, it’s awesome to see the opposite side of an issue that would otherwise have to be learnt the hard way- and perhaps at the cost of an otherwise worthwhile relationship.
I honestly cannot say that I’d even considered how a female might feel about a guy using porn before visiting this site... I would be completely bamboozled had a girlfriend brought up my porn use during a relationship. Knowing me, I would have been so stubbornly embedded in my own sense of “rightness” and entitlement that I would never have taken her seriously, even if I listened to her point of view- chances are she may not have been convincing or articulate enough to explain and it would have doomed any relationship I was in... This is hypothetical of course, but I just know that’s how such a scenario could easily have played out.
Honestly, that’s why I keep spending time here, to benefit from advice that could help me in the future, coupled with my desire to help others.... and to some degree for my own entertainment... :D
People regularly dish out advice here that really challenges my perceptions and which is articulated so well that I can’t help but absorb it. Sure, it may not be entirely relevant to me at the time of reading, but gradually learning how females tend to think feels somewhat empowering. I don’t know what it’s like to be a female. I have no idea how frustrating it must be to require more than just friction to “get off”. I didn’t know how many women out there have never had an orgasm through intercourse, let alone the amount that have never had an orgasm full stop. While I don’t think it’s necessarily fair on principle for a woman to shirk away from giving oral sex whilst happily receiving, I do see the differences in importance...
As guys, we don’t really NEED oral sex... let’s be honest, a bit of friction and most of us are relatively happy. Hell, guys can get off to the friction from feet, from boobs, from arm pits, the backs of knees, bum cheek creases, even fat folds! I’m generalizing, but do you see what I’m getting at? Oral sex is a big turn on, it’s a huge visual thing and for me, a big ego boost knowing that a woman is willing to do it. Maybe I’m biased because I’ve never “finished” from a blowjob, but even if I COULD, it still wouldn’t mean that I couldn’t get off in over a dozen different ways anyway. It’d be as it has always been, a huge turn on, maybe it’d even become a preference I’d push my partner for at times, but would it become a necessity to every bedroom session? I think not.
When you break it down, there’s a lot more ways that as a guy I can “get off” happily without the need for oral sex. It’s obviously not the same for everyone, but I get the sense that as a female, oral sex is often either a necessity, or one of the few moves in the average guy’s bedroom repertoire that can actually get her across the finish line.
Hypothetically, if there’s ONLY TWO positions in which a specific woman can orgasm- to have their guy suddenly become unwilling to perform ONE of them... Well I dunno about you, but I can see how that could be seen as selfish and a downhill slope to a stale, boring sex life, with the “I have a headache/sore throat” line being increasingly uttered. To lose one "proven successful" sexual position out of a ten vs. one out of a few... see how there might be a difference of importance in the bedroom? (generalizing of course)
I’d venture to say that generally oral sex is more important to women than men... it’s a turn on for a guy but largely a “want”, whereas for women its somewhere between either a “want” and a “need”. I don’t think those two posts exhibit a double standard so much as a reflection of how important oral sex is to women vs. men’s ultimate satisfaction in the bedroom. I'm yet to hear of a man who can only orgasm from oral sex and never intercourse... have you? Of course this doesn’t absolve a woman from ever needing to reciprocate, but I don’t think it should be seen as a tit for tat thing.
But meh... I'm just putting thought straight to page.. I could be way off the mark.
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reader, anonymous, writes (22 February 2011): Just to be a bit of a devil's advocate, I think the gender bias can be helpful at times. This site is really helpful for those who don't have a lot experience with the opposite sex. A lot of the questions are from clueless people using a survey approach about how to interpret something from the opposite sex...or how to handle a problem with the opposite sex.
Even if you get "biased" advice, DC helps people get a sense of how they might be likely to react or what attitudes they might encounter in the real world, fair or unfair.
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reader, dirtball +, writes (22 February 2011):
dirtball is verified as being by the original poster of the questionFor posterity sake, my previous reply was written before Jmtmj and Odds replies had shown up for me.
Thank you Odds for your post and attempting to bring us back on topic. It's my hope we can continue this discussion on topic without delving too far off into the dark realms that may be behind some of the gender biases we experience here.
Jmtmj, I agree with much of what you are saying. I hope I am summarizing your thoughts correctly here: Because we have a higher ratio of women than men giving advice, a bias like this is bound to surface because of it. That does make sense for a reason behind this difference. As does identifying with "our own" as it were.
Part of what makes this site so good is that people can get advice from all angles. I would like to state that I think this is very important. I'm in no way pushing for an attempt to homogenize the advice people receive, rather I'd just like people to focus on the situation instead of the gender of the person posing the question.
Thanks again everyone for joining in on this discussion.
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reader, dirtball +, writes (22 February 2011):
dirtball is verified as being by the original poster of the questionI'll admit, I did take your post to be your views Chigirl. In my defense, the historical perspective you presented you did state was a bias you shared, and one you hypothesized many other women also share.
I did not say your advice was bad. I asked if you thought that thinking along the lines of the quoted text made your advice better. To me, that line of thinking is not helpful. If that's not how you think, then that's all fine and dandy, but it was rather easy to take your passionate posts as your own views on the subject. People rarely get that passionate about things they don't feel strongly about on a personal level.
I learned about differential views in achieving equality in college too. Since my focus was in psychology, I did study gender and how it is influenced through culture and taught by parents, etc. We studied the struggle for equal rights here, the ongoing struggles around the world, you name it. It's a never ending struggle. I never said you can flip a switch and make inequality go away, but if people don't change how they think, it will only serve to perpetuate the problem.
I'll be honest, these two comments disturbed me: "Im of the opinion that a girl should be able to wear whatever she wants, but the fact is that in certain cases she will be raped if wearing certain things." and "It's like saying 'we want equality now!' in a world where there is none, then as a result all the women get raped." I know the point you're attempting to make, but this is extreme. Rape is a very serious problem that unfortunately many women will face at some point in their life regardless of where they live. I don't think you're making light of it, but using it in this way isn't right either in my opinion. In cases of rape, it is ALWAYS the rapist's fault, regardless of what a culture or jury may say. There is no such thing as "she was asking for it." Please don't confuse this statement with a misguided view of the world. I'm well aware that is not the reality many people face, however it is slowly becoming the reality here and in other places.
Looking back, I missed a key portion of what I'm ultimately looking for. I'm not trying to change the world, although I do my best to represent my beliefs on this subject in my daily life. Ultimately I'd like to see more equality here on DearCupid. More equality in the way we treat people who post their problems, regardless of what they may be. That we don't let our personal experiences fill in the blanks that an OP left out, because their experience is likely different from our own. And a fair assessment of how our own personal biases may be influencing the advice we give.
Sure, universal equality would be wonderful, but we can only influence those with whom we have contact, and it would take a fundimental change in many people's thought to make true equality a reality. That's well beyond the scope of this site or my goal with my article, so a debate on this topic is out of place here.
So, to sumarize my goal. To help people realize how their personal and gender biases may be influencing the advice they are giving, and to attempt to explain why these things are happening.
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reader, Odds +, writes (22 February 2011):
 "Rape" should be the Godwin's Law of relationship articles.
@ Chigirl
While I love arguing about gender dynamics, the OP (Dirtball) pointed out that arguing about equality wasn't the point of the article - admitting to and working on our peronal biases is.
I will say that I respect where you're coming from, and I see the merits of your school of thought on equality - personally, I think both schools you mention are flawed, for reasons that are a bit off-topic. However, on the subject of biases, this stood out to me:
Dirtball wrote that he doesn't like the implication that you see a man and a woman asking for the same sexual act to be different. To which you responded: "I didn't say anywhere that those were MY views, I was saying what it sounds like in general."
But earlier, you wrote:
"There's a difference between when a man asks for a sexual act, and when a woman asks for one. In the sense that a man in history has always gotten what he wanted, and the woman never did. I will admit to that being my bias, and probably the bias of many other women."
It is your view, and it is your bias (at least the part quoted; I'll give the benefit of the doubt on the rest of it). This is not just a case of "men owe the women of today more consideration in light of historical fact," which I could understand (if not agree with), it's a case of "men are bad and women are good for wanting the exact same thing."
You're not just arguing in favor of different standards, you're claiming that one entire group is selfish and nasty for wanting the same thing as the other.
It's a combative premise at heart, one that will only perpetuate conflict. Again, not trying to bring up an argument on oppression here (I'd be happy to do that in another article or a PM), but it's worth pointing out how unproductive this attitude is: "Men are still not treating women equally, and by the way, men can never understand how women feel, and also, western equality-minded men must feel guilty about how middle-easterners treat their women too, plus, men have always had it easy and I don't care about the historical injustices against them even though they should care about those against women."
Where's the incentive for any guy to even care about women's equality, much less put any effort forth, if that's the attitude he's facing?
Having biases is fine (I could make a drinking game out of my own), but this one just rubs me the wrong way. I think it hurts the cause of women's equality as much as it hurts the individuals subject to it. I believe your intentions are good, and I don't think you're anti-male or anything like that, but it's worth reconsidering the consequences of that message.
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reader, Jmtmj +, writes (22 February 2011):
At the end of the day its always going to be easier for a guy to relate/sympathize with a guys problem and a girl to relate/sympathize with a girls problem...
While it was an interesting experiment seeing the two female posters give different advice for both genders on an identical problem, its not exactly surprising... personal experience will always seep into our posts through our attitudes we've developed FROM our own experiences. Its when we post beyond our experiences and/or through "friend of a friend" experiences that advice becomes based on assumptions, generalizations and stereotypes. I'm certainly guilty of doing such, but I try to tread carefully when appropriate... keyword being "try" :P
The major problem with those two nearly-identical posts is that there was much more female input than male input.
Guys and girls are different, we think differently and as much as we try to close the gap, a guy will never know what its like to be a girl in the same way that a girl will never know what its like to be a guy.
Together the sexes are Ying & Yang, black & white.
By not having opinions from both genders, especially on gender related problems- the collective advice may come across as one-sided, or in this case, suggest a double-standard when in fact it may just suggest that its easier to sympathize with our own gender and problems that we ourselves have faced or are currently facing.
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reader, chigirl  +, writes (22 February 2011):
 Dirtball, you're not reading what I wrote. I didn't say anywhere that those were MY views, I was saying what it sounds like in general. Nowhere did I state that was MY view, in fact I pointed out that getting revenge on a man is NOT my view, and that I DO want equality. If it was a misunderstanding, fine, but if it was twisting my words then please read it carefully next time and not jump to a conclusion. I have the ability to say one thing and defend one thing, but also personally be of a different opinion. Don't take all I say to mean this is what I personally believe in, or make it into a personal thing in saying my advice would be bad. If you've read any of the advice I give I don't think you'd say my advice is bad. My ratings sure don't tell me it's bad.
"I know that's not how it is in the world, but it will never get there if we just accept that things aren't equal so we shouldn't treat people as equals." As for the problem of creating equality, there are different theories or "schools of thought" on that matter. I studies human rights and minority rights in relation to politics, so Im pulling this from that course. I wont go into full debate on it as it concerns too much, (and I don't have my books with me at the moment) but the basic idea is a difference between two schools, one which claims (like you) that we can only create equality through treating all as equal. The other school of thought is that too create equality, certain groups should by right have certain benefits, to raise them up to the level of the majority (in the case of minority rights).
You and I don't compete, and neither is wrong. But we follow different schools on how to achieve the same goal. You disagree with the way I do it, but you can not tell me that what I do not want is equality just based on the way I go about it. As for wanting to do the equality thing from scratch and just start to not care about gender without concern for the rest of society and without concern for what degree of equality there already is... I wanted to do that. But I've been unable to. Im of the opinion that a girl should be able to wear whatever she wants, but the fact is that in certain cases she will be raped if wearing certain things. Should I still tell her "thats too bad, but we gotta do it this way since we're supposed to help make dressing this way acceptable"? Is human sacrifice, or emotional and mental sacrifice, ok in your book? Because to me that is what will happen when you do not consider the way things are in relation to how you want to change them.
It's like saying "we want equality now!" in a world where there is none, then as a result all the women get raped. It's easy on you guys to say we shouldn't be biased, because you sit in a safe zone in this matter. But look at gays for example.. lets create equality for them as well while we're at it. Now just how many will suffer do you think if they all came out and started being gay and proud right this moment? Just how many by-standers would think this is perfectly fine, because we live in some idealistic world where everyone will be fine with it...? Just some ideas to show you my logic.
I'll get back to you on the different schools of thought that I mentioned earlier, once I get my hands on my books. I can PM that stuff to you later on. However if you want to discuss equality, and building equality, I recommend a class on human rights or minority rights, or a class on feminism, although I've not heard of any good classes on that yet. Seems whenever feminism is discussed the radicals swarm in and all you get is a big fight or laughing stock.
Reading Will Kymlicka could be of interest to you though. But I will add that women were brought up in a book of mine by Jack Donnelly, where the group was dismissed as a minority based on the grounds of it including too many (in basic). The point I was bringing up was just different thoughts on how to combat inequality, although women were not discussed as a group by these authors.
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reader, dirtball +, writes (22 February 2011):
dirtball is verified as being by the original poster of the questionMishmash, thank you for the excellent post.
Chigirl, I think you partially grasped my point, but it not entirely. I'll detail what I mean.
My point in this article was to point out this: "I will admit, although not seeing it as a flaw, that the text appeared different to me. Simply because it was written as if from a female." I wanted to make people aware that this is happening regardless of if they notice it or not, or if it's conscious or not. I also wanted to discuss why it is happening.
My point was NOT to defend sexism, or say it should still exist, or even argue about sexism at all. I'm well aware that in countries like China and India human rights are borderline non-existant. In much of Africa women are subjected to things like Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) which is atrocious, but often perpetuated by the women in society. Or the middle east where Muslum law makes them unequal by definition. I believe that advice that's given to a poster SHOULD be influenced by these factors. I'm much more prone to treat an American or European woman differently than someone posting from Kenya or Saudi Arabia, because we truely live in different worlds.
Sexism will never go away. Even if people are equals in a eutopian society there will always be those who will be sexist, racist, or any number of other nasty things. The key is to not let these negative things influence our answers unnecessarily. Some questions need to be viewed through this lens, others it can be very harmful to view them in that way. Ultimately though, that's a discussion for a different thread.
"when a man asks for something he sounds like a spoiled brat who had his toy taken away. When a woman asks for the same thing, she sounds like a submissive who has finally broken free, found her voice and ability to express herself."
Do you really think holding these views makes your advice better? I would argue it makes your advice worse. The reason is because you're treating people differently. You claim to want equality, but say because things aren't fully equal yet you're justified perpetuating the problem. Equality should extend to EVERYTHING. Is that idealistic on my part? Absolutely. I know that's not how it is in the world, but it will never get there if we just accept that things aren't equal so we shouldn't treat people as equals. So, do you want to perpetuate the problem? It appears that way to me.
Where we definitely agree is that each situation needs to be looked at as a unique situation. That's part of the reason I used the same question posted from a different gender. I wanted an "all else equal" scenario to demonstrate the phenomena I was speaking to. My demonstration did a pretty good job of showing how unequal we treat people asking the same question, based solely on a difference in their genders. I don't believe that's right. If we want to speak to equality, then we need to demonstrate it.
"Not to mention I hardly ever do see women come on here complaining that their man wont perform sexual acts on her."
Then you're avoiding those questions. Here are a few examples:
http://www.dearcupid.org/question/i-satisfy-my-husband-but-he-doesnt-satisfy.html
http://www.dearcupid.org/question/i-want-sex-and-boyfriend-not-dishing-it.html
http://www.dearcupid.org/question/getting-over-forbidden-fantasies.html
http://www.dearcupid.org/question/my-husband-hasnt-had-sex-with-me-since.html
http://www.dearcupid.org/question/my-boyfriend-doesnt-like-oral-sex-because-of.html
I haven't read all of these fully, but I just pulled those from the first page of the 'sex' tab from the main page. I'm sure I could post plenty more links if you'd like me to continue.
While a question about sex was my example here, my goal wasn't to have a discussion about inequality in sex. I used that example because the most extreme differences I've found in advice have been in this topic, but that's not to say it doesn't extend outside of the topic of sex either.
My ultimate point though is if you want to truely treat people equally, you need to take their gender out of the equation. Is it going to happen? No. But we need to understand why we treat people differently in order to treat them equally. I want to be a part of the solution to inequality, not part of the problem. If we want to be equal, then we need to be equal in ALL areas, not just the ones that suit us best.
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reader, chigirl +, writes (22 February 2011):
Just read through the other answers. I hardly ever read through the other answers first because I don't want others opinion to colour my own.
Anyway, if I may say this without being looked upon like a crazy cat-lady, men keep getting this wrong. "I think part of why I didn't even consider the historical perspective is because I haven't experienced it in my life. Sure, I've learned about it, but learning about something and living it are two VERY different things."
You are right, you haven't lived through it, you're not living through it, and to you it appears as this was something of the past. Dear you, it's not in the past at all. Sexism is still alive and well, perhaps in some directions you men feel a negative impact on your lives. Such as in the bedroom, or with the case of abortion etc. I am aware of this, and like I mentioned before, my goal is not to get revenge on men. I very much want equality. But like I also mentioned before, we do not have equality yet. And if this all comes down a discussion of sexism, I need to bring it to your attention that isolating one part of life and comparing how equal things are in that scene do not have any real value. Because people do not live in isolated scenes. You absolutely need to look at the whole picture!
What I mean by this is that even if you as a man feel you give your woman all the rights in the world, treat her right, you are equal in the bedroom etc... You still have larger parts of society, her upbringing, her family, her friends, all of that which place a gender specific role on her (and on you as a man as well). And THAT role plays a huge part in how she (and he) will conduct herself at home as well.
I could take you on a tour of the world and you would see that there is no such thing as equality. And you may think that whatever happens to women in the middle east for example, or India, or to girls in China, or wherever in the world, has little or no impact on women elsewhere. A lot of us have a global consciousness, and these things do matter. To say we have equality now would be to close your eyes to the women in other parts of the world. But aside from that, you also close your eyes to the things that still put women down in todays western society.
It is not that long ago that a womans place was in the kitchen. And if you look at who is at home today, IN THE KITCHEN, is it the man or the woman? Who holds the majority of low paid jobs? Who are the majority of the losers of society? In every case where men have it rough, women have it rougher. Womens righst are not protected, and in many ways simply because women need a different sort of protection than men do. We have different needs, and now Im speaking basic needs. A homeless man experience a less dangerous situation than what a homeless woman experience. But now I am going to the extremes. I can also point out very modern examples, from the higher levels of society.
But the problem is... many "symptoms" of how women are places as lower than men are hidden quite well. Only the person subjected to it can see it clearly for what it is, and then is often so used to it that it can go by unnoticed. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. It's there when my father didn't allow me to be friends with boys, for example. It's there when a father allows his son to play with cars, but he gives the girl a doll. It's there when as a result of sexism, men study to become doctors, engineers, and women study to be teachers and nurses.
This big picture plays a huge part in the way we answer questions, and it plays a part in how women experience their sexuality and bedroom experiences. The bedroom can not be isolated from the rest of the womans life.
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reader, chigirl +, writes (22 February 2011):
Dearcupid isn't a scientific experiment. Of course people are biased, and that is the entire point of this site as well, for us to bring in our experiences and put them to good use. If we stepped out of ourselves and away from our experiences that would mean all the advice would be the same from everyone and wouldn't offer any help at all.
I don't see there being anything wrong at all with the way the questions are being answered with a gender bias. When that happens. It doesn't always, and I do not recognize any difference in my answers. BUT, I always give different advice because the cases are never exactly similar to one another, and the tone of the post also plays a huge part.
I will say that I read the female version of that question (didn't see that question when it got asked so I didn't answer it there and then), and I will admit, although not seeing it as a flaw, that the text appeared different to me. Simply because it was written as if from a female. But that is because of history and society, and not from any bad experiences with blowjobs on my part.
However I will say that I used to be a woman who loved giving blowjobs, and all this fuzz about it is actually putting me off it. Need to find a way to not get affected by all that I read... But that was besides the point.
History and society.. yes let me tell you a little something about the difference between men and women when it comes to sex. In history, and very much alive today, a woman is a place for a man to empty his balls. She is to give and give and get penis pushed into all of her holes without complains, never be allowed to enjoy sex herself, never allowed to ask for anything, and the man is ALWAYS on top, he decides it all. She's just his slave in bed.
That's the history of female sexuality narrowed down. With this is mind... and with our newfound ability to speak up, do you really think we will put down a woman who speaks up and expresses her needs and desires? Women who speak up about what they want in bed, what is actually good for them, what pleases them. It's a breath of fresh air. Some women might get selfish after a while, but without a doubt I am convinced the rest of the time the man still has the upper hand on her. And in the few cases where a woman is not owned by any man, or dependent on any man, I will congratulate her, not order her to suck it and please her man.
Equality would be nice. But we're just not there yet. There's a difference between when a man asks for a sexual act, and when a woman asks for one. In the sense that a man in history has always gotten what he wanted, and the woman never did. I will admit to that being my bias, and probably the bias of many other women. Im not one of those feminists who wants revenge on man, I do want equality. But with history in mind, when a man asks for something he sounds like a spoiled brat who had his toy taken away. When a woman asks for the same thing, she sounds like a submissive who has finally broken free, found her voice and ability to express herself.
It is important to see each case as an individual case, and not as a whole. But yet we know that there's prehistory that the OP doesn't let us in on. In the cases of blowjobs, which is basically the only place where I've seen this fuzz, we do not get to see the important pre-history. History being such as: what kind of personality do these two have? Is the man a know-it-all who feels entitled to whatever he wants in bed and she's just supposed to suck it up? Or is he a gentle loving man who is just confused by this? Does he treat her with respect? Or is he a douchebag? In a female point of view this is all very important.
Not to mention I hardly ever do see women come on here complaining that their man wont perform sexual acts on her. That colours my advice. Because what I do see is a lot of men complaining about their sex life, about their girlfriend not being good enough, or satisfying them enough, and none of these guys show a hint of respect for their woman, or a willingness to provide their woman with pleasure themselves. It's all about the man! That just goes to show that history of female sexuality is still very much alive today, and a lot of men feel entitled to do whatever they please with their woman, regardless of whether or not she will actually enjoy it.
As a last comment... aside from the point again, but when it comes to sex there's a golden rule that counts for both parties involved. Sex isn't about entitlement, and you are not to expect anything. Sex is about pleasing your partner, and give and take at an equal level. When you have two partners who love each other and want to do whatever they can to please their partner, they will also be able to experience the pleasure they give, and not need anything in return. Then if you do get something good in return it is a bonus. Not something to expect. But that rule is hard to go by if you're a woman with a man who still lives with the idea that a woman is nothing but a place to dump your spunk.
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reader, anonymous, writes (22 February 2011): Great article DB.
I had been thinking of this lately in a kind of abstract way in general, but your article gives me the chance to articulate it.
I think the aunts naturally gravitate towards the questions they can identify with...whatever end of the question posed. I don't believe it could be otherwise. People will always give advice because they empathize with the situation of the poster. Or they give adivce to exact revenge on a stranger that reminds them of someone who hurt them in the past.
I also think the double standard between the genders is amplified when it comes to sexual acts. Often a self-proclaimed feminist will act on the basis of equality when it comes to work or pay, but will revert to the double standard when it comes to sex or courtship.
Sex in general is a kind of an abstract and primodrial thing. And I think when people respond to it, their objectivity and their empathetic flexibility breaks down. In general, I think people bother to answer questions here because they are empathetic people, (or they like to believe they are empathetic.) I think they also bother to give advice because they have moral codes and values that they feel are important to maintain and share. I love this site beyond the advice, is that it helps build my empathetic capacity and it gives me a clearer reflection of my own moral compass.
I think the problem with sex in general is that is tends occupy space beyond the rational, the social norms, and moral codes. There is a reason it's a taboo thing in most cultures; it's instinctual, emotional, and a neccessarily unrational behavior. That's why it's so much fun.
But, I also think that's why when women (and men) when answering a question that deals with sex, tend to have visceral responses and are distracted by their own insecurities, experiences, or fantasies rather than really imagining the feelings and conflicts of the poster.
For instance, I think everyone here would agree both men and women should be treated with respect and are inherently fully fledged individuals, not objects. Right? Well sex complicates that pretty basic moral standard. You cannot enjoy sex unless you enjoy being treated as a sexual object; this applies to men and women. During sex, you are neccessarily objectified. That's why we tend to socially sanction sex only with people whom we love and respect, because the act objectifies us, makes us very vulnerable and yet we still want to care about each other when it happens.
For instance, what can you tell a woman who enjoys rape fantasies? What can you tell a man who is upset his girl friend won't go down on him? You can't really do anything other than tell him or her to find another partner with a corresponding desire. Or you can revert to judging the person through a moral standard or bias even though you are talking about an act that tends to exist on the fringes of social morality...because it's difficult to think about sex in a rational way.
To a certain degree I think it's useless to talk about "equality" and "fairness" when it comes to sex; it's enjoyable precisely because it exists outside of that sort of rationalism. I would argue that the institution of marriage rests on that dichotomy: the spiritual union human beings versus the union of human bodies. It's to our collective and personal advantage to entrust our bodies and vulnerabilites to someone whom we trust and love.
I know that was longwinded, but I guess what I want to say is that sex is complicated. Most people can't talk about sex without clouding their judgement with their own fantasies and insecurities, or covering up their own empathy with moral standards that really don't apply in the situation.
I was thinking about gender bias lately when I saw a boy on the train a couple months ago. He was probably 8 years old and appeared to be on a school field trip with his class. He began to cry because a girl in his class said something nasty to him. An older lady, a stanger, perhaps 50 years old, saw him, approached him, and took it upon herself to chastised him for crying, told him to "stop it" and that he had to "be a man." She essentially tried to make him ashamed of feeling vulnerable. She sincerely thought she was doing this kid a favor and probably believed she was being motherly. It's really hard to talk about gender bias without talking about culture and the way we are brought up. Gender isn't rational, it's taught.
After witnessing some of the Valentine's drama last week in real life and here on DC, I think most problems stemmed from disappointed expectations and an uncertainty about the right way to fullfill our gender roles.
Don't mean to end this article on a cynical note, but after witnessing (and reading) conflicts this week, I think sometimes when we are taught gender by our families and given such divergent advice about how to handle the opposite sex, it's no wonder we misunderstand each other so badly. Kind of made me sad.
Anway, I don't have any utopian advice to give, but thanks for opening with your thoughts and challenging us to think about it. Great article.
-mishmash
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reader, dirtball +, writes (21 February 2011):
dirtball is verified as being by the original poster of the questionBattista, it definitely isn't just you!
Odds, I knew what you meant even before you posted your correction. ;-) You're absolutely correct, and I think part of why I didn't even consider the historical perspective is because I haven't experienced it in my life. Sure, I've learned about it, but learning about something and living it are two VERY different things. You're also right that everyone would be happier if they weren't always trying to "get theirs."
Thanks again everyone for contributing. It's very nice to have a discussion about this topic. Honestly, I'm very surprised we don't have more dissenting arguments showing up. I hope people who disagree aren't scared off.
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reader, Odds +, writes (21 February 2011):
"Firstly, because you can* compensate for past injustice by creating more injustice..."
*Really should have said "cannot." I'm hardly typo-free, but that's a game-changing one, right there.
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reader, Odds +, writes (20 February 2011):
@ AngelDLite
I agree, the "historical inequality" argument may explain a bulk of the biases. I think it's an incredibly destructive way to behave, but you're right, a lot of folks act that way.
Firstly, because you can compensate for past injustice by creating more injustice. Trying to take more from others now, to "make up" for past inequalities, is unfair and cheapens the women who do it.
Second, because if you're under 35 or so, by the time you hit puberty the historical inequalities were either gone or on the way out (and yes, they existed, though there are serious and destructive misconceptions about them). Those that weren't yet gone were frowned upon, at the very least.
Young women today did not grow up "oppressed;" young men today did not grow up as "oppressors." The only reason young women want redress for historical inequalities is because of the benefits of victim status.
Thirdly, unfair treatment of guys over what their fathers and grandfathers may have done would, in all likelihood, only create more misogynists.
It's not as if I think women are doing this on purpose, either. Or men, either. Most people just don't think much about their words or actions. I just think people will be happier if, instead of trying to "get theirs," even unconsciously, they're giving more to each other.
Glad to see you and I are on the same page with that.
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reader, Battista +, writes (20 February 2011):
Dirtball your post is excellent. I saw both of those threads and thought there was a real double standard going on; Just this morning I answered yet another question along these lines: girl will not give any oral even though bf does it everytime without asking.
These double standards really trouble me- I don't know why. I am really interested, and glad to read your post here because at least it is not just me thinking about these things. I quite often perceive a really negative attitude toward men who wish to discuss sexual issues of the type where the woman is not willing to engage in various activities. I have noticed that often where a woman doesn't want to take part the man is advised to be patient, less demanding, etc, whereas if a man perhaps goes off sex for whatever reason women are often advised that their man might be cheating on them or "getting it elsewhere" as it were. It is almost as though woman should be desired by default, and if they are not then the man is in the wrong. On the other hand, if the woman does not desire the man for whatever reason then he doesn't have any right to complain and needs to get to the bottom of the problem himself.
I am not saying that all the aunts and uncles on here are like that, far from it. But there IS a bias without doubt. Not wishing to be graphic but I wonder if this might have something to do with the mechanical difference between men and women when it comes to sex/oral. Penetration and penetrating are two quite different things in that sense, both physically and symbolically. Truelover also makes an excellent point where he says that men are sometimes portrayed as having less emotional needs, and this definitely feeds into the problem.
Right; not sure if I have added anything to the discussion but I just wanted to voice my opinion, and also say that is is a very good question indeed Dirtball.
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reader, dirtball +, writes (20 February 2011):
dirtball is verified as being by the original poster of the questionangelDlite, that's a very good point you bring up about historical inequality. It's sometimes easy to forget in the current atmosphere of equality, or very near equality. You're absolutely correct though. That's something I hadn't really thought about. I almost feel ashamed of myself for neglecting that point. Thank you very much for bringing it up.
Truelover, the point you made about it being more difficult for women to orgasm definitely influences this. It is the truth in most cases too. At least in my experience. Still, I think inequality deserves to be addressed. Especially when the person asking for help is attending to the desires and needs of their partner.
Thanks again to everyone for contributing so far!
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reader, angelDlite +, writes (20 February 2011):
good one dirtball :)
yes its a case of men being seen as the sexual predator who makes 'unfair demands' so therefore he is not 'entitled' to oral, but the woman should have her 'feelings and emotions' catered for and if the man is too 'selfish' to give her oral then he is some kind of bad guy.
i think this is because women in the past have been more repressed than the men, had less sexual freedom because of the fear of pregnancy and the fear of one sided bonding following sex. now society has changed and women want to even up the score, but more than that they want to 'surpass' the score, in a way to make up for the sexism that men subjected us to in the past.
women are the new sexists and men are the new 'underdogs' which is just as unfair as when it was the other way around.
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reader, truelover +, writes (20 February 2011):
 I'll add a few biases (& their negative connotations) that I've observed as well:
1. Men are sex-crazed puppies & less selective than women
(Many men might have strong sex drives but this doesn't translate to being sex-crazed & unrestrained nor does this mean that women can't have strong drives either)
- Negative connotations:
- Men have to expend more effort & do more to "please
the woman" compared to women
- Women have sexual needs that must be met with greater
care for e.g. Clitoral stimulation is necessary for
most women to orgasm, therefore, men HAVE to do it
but it's not the same the other way around (on the
simple assumption that men can orgasm without oral
stimulation & that is ALL that it takes to please
them... without understanding that sex is about the
mind as well, & if either partner feels unequal /
neglected that can be a major dampener irrespective
of one's capacity to orgasm) ... dirtball, this is
probably one of the factors
that explains your experiment's findings.
2. Men are less emotional beings than women (of course we might respond a bit differently to our feelings, tempering them with reason, or sometimes suppressing them)
- Negative connotations:
- Men are supposed to "man up" to various things /
issues that women don't have to "woman up" to
- Men are perceived to be less-able caregivers as
parents
- Hence, it's entirely the woman's prerogative to
decide whether to have a child or not but
the man has to provide child support if she does
- Women are perceived negatively as more prone to
becoming more easily emotionally attached & possibly
hurt in the process
- Women are perceived as being clingy / needy &
over-sensitive
- Women are perceived negatively as having greater
'emotional needs'
- Adopting negative coping mechanisms like shopping /
eating when feeling low
- Men are perceived negatively as having lesser
'emotional needs'
3. Men are aggressors (Might well be true most times)
- Negative connotations:
- The wooing / chasing primarily has to be done by men,
often times so aggressively that it no longer matters
whether the woman is with someone else or not
- Women are not supposed to similarly aggressively
pursue men because that makes them seem desperate
- The proposal has to be done primarily by the man
(often with great thought & care, and effort)
- Women often measure the sincerity / worth of a
man's love with effort put into the proposal
(including the material value of things like the
size / cost of the ring)
-Phew that's a lot of stuff...
Just to clarify, this is NOT a diatribe against anyone.
Just my observations on what I thought were some negative gender-biases that we should look more closely into as we try to progress to a more inclusive & equitable society.
I hope I haven't driven the folks here on DC to sleep & or infuriated the aunts.
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reader, dirtball +, writes (20 February 2011):
dirtball is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThanks for the posts so far.
Cindy, I'm well aware my methodology was far from perfect. Perhaps I should have put some quotes around the word experiment.
Was I trying to show specific inconsistencies in individuals advice? No, that's not what my goal was. And I definitely was not trying to single people out. My goal was to demonstrate a broader trend, and part of that trend is the random anon posters who also contribute.
"If the responders of the two questions are not the same, so, how can you know if most, or many, or quite a few or very few Aunts give gender biased answers?"
It is possible to demonstrate general trends, and that was my goal. I would never have conducted this "experiment" if they weren't things I had noticed over many months of posting here. It doesn't matter if individuals stay consistent with themselves to me. I believe that's good, but if you look at the "trend" in the answers, you'll start to notice the bias in some. It's not in all the posts, but it is there in enough posts to make my argument valid. Being aware of it will help people avoid it.
"In other words, how can you see if it is a relevant trend or an occasional exception?"
I absolutely cannot from two threads. I did not feel like taking the hours to dig and post tons of links for people to read through proving my point, although I'm certain I could do it. This was simply a controlled example that supports the claim I was making. Nothing more, nothing less.
My conclusions were not drawn from these two examples alone, but from my couple of years reading and posting here. Like Odds said at the end of his post, I'm mostly just calling for an honest appraisal of people's personal biases and an acceptance that they influence the advice we give. Fair expectations would be nice, but I believe they are more of a pipe dream.
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reader, CindyCares  +, writes (20 February 2011):
 Interesting experiment,DB, but I am afraid it's methodologically flawed.
I mean, did all the very same aunts that answer the first post,answer the second in a contrasting , inconsistent way ? No, right ?
For instance , I answered the first post and said that in my opinion the guy should leave her alone, if she doesn't like oral sex he should respect her preferences.
I did not answer the second because I thought that it was a troll post ( which,in a way, it was :) but- you have to take my word for it, DB; scout's honour - I would have answered exactly the same : no, if he does not like oral sex, SHE should respect his preferences.
If the responders of the two questions are not the same, so, how can you know if most, or many, or quite a few or very few Aunts give gender biased answers ? In other words, how can you see if it is a relevant trend or an occasional exception ?
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reader, truelover +, writes (20 February 2011):
Wow, Dirtball! I was thinking along the same lines & was searching for similar posts on this, but your "experimental post" was carefully setup to be more or less identical to the original in all matters except gender and acted as a nice "control". Either you care strongly about this or you must have a lot of free time... just kidding!
You are right about how often times people aren't even aware of the stereotypes / gender-biases they have because the biases are so subtle or programmed so strongly in us that we don't question it.
Odds, the generalizations are sometimes useful & work in creating certain preconceptions / ideas about we relate to others. But like you said, it's time for an honest appraisal w.r.t. gender-specific biases so that we can leave those that don't work or are unfair / simply untrue.
We really need to be aware of the underlying messages in our behavior / expectations & as well the values projected by the media. For e.g. have you observed that in movies / TV series, it's usually common for the man to be smacked in the face by a woman but not vice-versa... of course this seems trivial till you realize one of the possible explanations for accepting such a bias:
that men are physically & mentally stronger so they can take a small blow like a slap rather easily from a lady
An alternate & more interesting explanation that I thought of is that media usually counters the unpleasant / negative stereotypes in the real-world by portraying the opposite on TV (I think they do this to change perceptions)... so in order to mitigate the real-world situation of abusive males
who boss around women, they show dominant female characters
who can boss men.
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A
male
reader, Odds +, writes (20 February 2011):
Nice one. I wish I had seen that first thread. (In before "But I don't have any double standards!" - I'll be the first to admit I have them)
And you're right, it is sexism at work. People who won't hesitate to use the phrase "man up" will cringe at it's equivalent, "stay in the kitchen." A man is a rat bastard for not going down, a woman is within her rights refuse anything.
Honestly, though, I think the vast majority of people are sexists, it's just more acceptable (or at least more common) to shout down pro-male/anti-female sexists than the reverse. Truth's got nothing to do with it, either - whether the truth is gender-neutral or not.
If it were up to me, the line between "acceptable" and "sexist" would be drawn between "tendencies" and "expectations."
As far as I can tell, there are vast differences between the sexes. Exceptions exist (with 6 billion people, I'd be surprised if they didn't), but it's certainly valid to generalize - regarding tendencies, at least. "Most women prefer dominant men," or "most men prefer thin women" are valid statements, and probably true. They are just an easy way of describing a population.
Generalizations provide a useful way of providing sex-specific advice. "You woman will be happier if you act more confident and dominant," or "your man will be happier if you do that thing with the whipped cream." It's not required action, simply behavior that plays to desires and may yield a positive response.
Where I get upset is in the divide between expectations - your example being a perfect one. "A real man goes down and loves it," or "men ought to buy an expensive ring," versus "no woman should have to do anything she doesn't want to," or "having the baby is her choice, not his!" The past couple of decades have done a fine job of ending the expectations for chicks (for better or worse); not so much for guys, though.
If you're calling for fair expectations, or even just an honest appraisal of our own biases, I'll second the motion.
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