A
male
age
41-50,
*ama
writes:One of the hardest aspects of my being able to accept, get over, and not think about my wife's one night fling (she gave and received oral sex with a total stranger who was much older than her - she didn't, still doesn't know his name) is to understand what was or wasn't going through her mind and body as / before this was happening. It's hard for me to know because I never wanted to be with a stranger, and never was. Having this sort of emotional/sexual gap between her and I (I just have no idea what that would be like) causes me a lot of pain and stupid obsession. I'm pretty much over the typical guy reaction of "give me details" (at least with my wife) and just have the following question for all of you: *how do *anonymous* flings / oral "experiences" differ from having sex with someone you know? Or don't they? How are they the same?* I am very interested to hear how other people respond - I think it will help me put what my wife tells me into a larger context. Bless her heart, she has put up with me having very insecure feelings about this for a long time, and we are really working through it together; I ask this question not to fuel my obsessional fire but rather to help put it out. I'd prefer not to hear from folks who are just going to tell me that "the past is the past;" been there, heard that. : ) Thank you for responding!
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male
reader, Kama +, writes (5 April 2014):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the question Yep, It's a tough one. The toughest. We're doing pretty well now, better, still together . . .
A
male
reader, dark_halcyon  +, writes (19 January 2014):
Fighting an impossible battle with exact thing now. Though we're not married, so because she's only my girlfriend, objectively I have less "right" to obsess. But this is really such insane torture, tremble of inner being, I never knew this can even exist. I'd rather have teeth pulled out of my jaw one by one, then live through this for already 1 year.It spoils everything, seems like all normal problems in relationship get intensified by it. Relationship starts to look more like a harsh punishment, an evil, and you ask why it ever happened with this person. What does she want from you, why YOU. You start to question if you're her emotional fix for what she did, in a way you being saviour of negative effect on her by the choice she gave herself to, or otherwise she wouldn't want you. Like, when women go into LTR or marriage after something like this, its only a compensation in order tonot feel bad or doubt if they are desirable in full package. It is one of most intense inner battles I've ever had, and I lived through all kinds of S***.The problem is, I feel even leaving her won't fix my pain, it will make it worse, and I think this will scar me for life, I'm afraid.
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reader, Yos  +, writes (29 June 2010):
 "I understand how you must feel about what I did, but I am not that person any longer, I want you to trust that I am not running from the responsibility of my actions, but that I am no longer interested in doing what I did. I want my life with you, now."
That is a very generous thing your wife has said, and it is good you are grateful for it.
I think there is nothing wrong with her saying that at all. It is good for her to say. Especially that she 'understands how you FEEL'. Note that is not 'understands how you THINK'. Meaning: she understands how painful this is for you, although she does not agree with your negative thoughts and beliefs.
It is good that you can share your pain and feel supported by her. She is your wife after all!
What is important for you is not to blame her for your pain. She can help you with it, but do not make it her fault. Do not get angry at her for it, or accuse her of bad things because of it. But if you can experience just the pain in an open way, and she can help you with it, then it can bring you closer together. I found through my experience that I became even closer with my partner, and our understanding even stronger, because we (eventually) found a way to share our deepest emotions with each other in a positive way, even when they were negative emotions.
Beware this though: it is not easy to have a conversation about this with your wife without bad things being said, or old negative memories and images being made stronger. So I recommend that you try to avoid involving her when you are in a bad place. Better I think to go somewhere quiet by yourself and remind yourself how much you love each other, that she will always be faithful to you, and then to let your emotions come and go as they need to without thinking about her past at all.
Also beware this: if she has to apologise then it means she did something wrong. You MUST give up the idea that she did something wrong. You must change your beliefs about this. Let go. And that means that, because she did nothing wrong, she owes you no apology. Remember: what she did now has no meaning... so no need to be sorry about it.
So, by all means accept her emotional understanding and support. But avoid having negative conversations about the past with her, and do not think that you need an 'apology' from her. You owe each other love, respect and compassion, not apologies.
Good luck.
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reader, Kama +, writes (28 June 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionYos, thank you. I know you are correct about the choice, and your terms make sense. I won't analyze them, but I do have a question regarding what is not contained in them, what is outside of them, and the question, at least to my mind, is a question about technique, about trying to let go. It does not have to do with meditation, but I still see it as being a way of letting go as explained by the rest of your advice. See what you think. You nicely see the issue, or the non-issue as I should be thinking of it (or rather, not thinking about it), from my perspective. But what about hers? In the last weeks, most of the letting go that I have felt (and I think that it is much the same kind of letting go that you describe in terms of the sky and clouds) has been a direct result of my wife's actions, and then, following hers, mine. I'll be more specific:She has convinced me through conversations that she has initiated that I am not alone with this, that she recognizes my feelings, and sympathizes with them. If you look at much of what is written below, you will see that I have asked people repeatedly about this idea: is it wrong to want to feel as though my emotions about that night are recognized by her? Lately, she has been recognizing them, and even taking responsibility, in part, for them through talking to me, through saying things to me like "I understand how you must feel about what I did, but I am not that person any longer, I want you to trust that I am not running from the responsibility of my actions, but that I am no longer interested in doing what I did. I want my life with you, now."So, things like this that she says have a way of clearing those clouds of rationality away. She crosses the thoughts our here. She actively shows me how, and this is what I could not feel before she, in a way, took responsibility for what she did, and the emotions and thoughts that they caused in me. So, I just wanted to see what you'd say if I asked you whether it is a positive thing to also want her to help with the crossing out of the past in order to help me find that stillness. In the end, I agree and accept that this is my sole responsibility. But I hope that you can agree that another way toward healing is through her actions, her validation of my bruised ego. I feel like her initiating the recognition and willingness to pick me up when I'm very down with it can (not as a rule, but as an addition to what you have pointed out about MY own responsibility to pick myself up) is just as useful, if not moreso, as my initiating it myself. I guess it's symbiotic, and it makes me feel together with her, to not feel alone with my "random and convoluted noise about morality, soul, judgment, virtue, and so on." Do you find my asking her for help more selfish, random noise? Or is it possible that alongside my own responsibility for changing, that she also has the ability to initiate and make easier my new beginning? I ask because even though I believe everything you say, I feel something is not considered, namely, her own free will, her actions and her love. It is not her job to lick my wounds, I must heal on my own, but as with a mother, sometimes moral support buttresses and makes easier the healing, even if, as you imply, the wounds are of my own design. I wonder if this is, in your view, more convoluted noise?I thank you for your thoughts, very much, and would love to hear your response. Kama
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reader, Yos +, writes (25 June 2010):
It's time for you to make a decision.
Reading your words here it's clear to me you've gone about this the wrong way.
But before I go into that. it's time for that decision.
Do you truly and sincerely want to get past this, and stay with your wife? Do you?
Decide right now. Yes or no. Simple decision.
Ok.
If not, leave her now. Do it with love.
But If you have chosen to stay, and to let go, you have also agreed to the following terms. These are non negotiable:
- I agree to put this away. To put it out of my life. To give it no relevance and value. This thing has taken over my life. It's taken over the meaning of my life. I have decided now that it's meaningless to me. What my wife did that night is now irellevant to our future.
- I agree to stop letting myself obsess over this. My own weakness keeps bringing me back to it. I am addicted to my own pain and suffering. I am allowing myself to be a victim because it feeds my self image as the wronged-man. It feeds my bruised ego. It allows me to stay weak, to not confront myself and my demons and rid myself of them. But no more. This is an old self that i do not want to be, because it is harming my future. I must and will now re-invent myself. No more procrastination. No more excuses. No more 'oh but i am this or that…'.
- I am now going to change. NOW. I am going to give up my 'old values' that let me spew this random and convoluted noise about morality, soul, judgement, sacredness, virtue and so on. That is all just baggage that is holding me back from being happy. And it will soon destroy the best thing in my life: my marriage. I don't need it anymore. Throw that junk away. Time to find a new 'moral view' that allows you to be happy and live in harmony with your wife. Your morality, or whatever you want to call it, is now your enemy. Get rid of it. Hit reset and find out who you are and what you believe now; now that you have decided that what your wife did has no meaning or relevance any more. It's a scary place: you'll be lost. But things will shake themselves out and you'll be stronger and better for it. And know yourself and who you are much better than you do now.
Understand: YOU are capable of change. But to do so is incredibly painful because it forces you to let go of beliefs and ideals that you have labelled as 'yourself'.
But you are not those things. You are the thing behind those things. You are the thing that has beliefs and ideals, you are not those beliefs and ideals themselves.
The buddhists have a metaphor helpful for understanding this: 'sky-like mind'.
What they are referring to is the confusion we usually live in: that we mistake our emotions, beliefs and memories to be 'ourselves'. As with the sky: we identify ourselves as the clouds that drift through it. But we are not that: we are the sky above, the blue. The clouds are just visitors. They do not define us, and if they are not helpful to us we can let them go. Likewise emotions, beliefs and memories are transitory, temporary. We can chose to let them go when they are not serving us, when they are not making us happy. As yours are not now.
The 'semantics' (as q1605) put it, are these clouds. You're clinging onto them because they allow you to justify the emotions you are having. They are your excuses for not having to change. For paying only lip service up until now to the desire for change. To sound good, say the right things and look good on paper, but to still be trapped in your own web. You are broken. You need to change. You need to let go. Let the clouds go. Let go of the need to see those beliefs as part of you. They don't need to be.
Since you have decided that what your wife did is irrelevant, you must also let go of all the beliefs that contradict that. Expect a domino effect, as you are forced to let go of other old beliefs, things you thought of as your 'old self' that you no longer need.
Something else, more on the 'how' to do this:
Right now you are in the dead end of the mind. You keep saying you need to 'understand' your wife's behaviour.
Here's thing thing: no you don't.
You are trying to use rationality to understand something emotional. But there is no rational explanation. There is only the web of confusion and pain that you create by obsessing over this.
An emotional act requires only an emotional 'explanation'. An emotional resolution. Not a rational one.
Give up on that conceit. Give up and let go of the need to 'understand' this. You can't. And by trying to you only drag yourself lower and lower. There is only one answer to the question 'I must understand…' and it is 'pain'.
In fact, what you need to do is stop trying altogether.
To try is to apply your mind to this. To feed the monster that is your obsession. The only way to kill that monster is to stop feeding it. To stop trying. To stop thinking. To stop analysing. To stop attempting to understand.
Give it up. Make that choice right now. If you can you'll feel an incredible lightness and simplicity come over you. You'll realise right away that you've don it, it feels like a great weight being lifted from you.
The horrible task you've set yourself for the last years no longer needs to be top of your to-do list. Just bin it. Cross it out. No longer necessary.
Two other things.
When i say stop thinking, I don't mean stop feeling. I've written about this elsewhere here, but I'll restate.
You cannot control your emotions. Not without rationality, which is your enemy here. Instead, allow yourself to feel everything. Fully. It's ok to feel what you are feeling. You love her, of course the images hurt. That's ok, its human, its normal. BUT… when those feelings come, resist the urge to understand, to label, to spin off in what i'm sure are now well-worn logical connections that must be as familiar as your wife's face to you. Those paths all lead nowhere. Instead just remain in the emotions, without thought. Just feel.
You'll find that, without the noise of your mind to feed them, they'll fade. Those emotions feed off your thoughts. Those thoughts are their fuel. Without those thoughts, they'll starve and eventually die. And once they do there'll be a stillness that will be different. You'll realise that you can feel these feelings without having these thoughts. And that when you do, those emotions lose their sting. They come and go like a cloud through the sky. Inconsequential other than perhaps a momentary dimming. Nothing to concern yourself with.
Some people find this easier to do than others. There are ways to learn it: many martial arts and similar focus on this. Meditation is one very good option. I opted for tai chi, which was very helpful for teaching me to quieten my mind. Yoga is another option. I suggest you consider something like this. Find a good teacher and a good class. Don't miss any sessions. Practice a lot outside of class.
- - -
I'm going to be disappointed in you if you come back now with a long post analysing what I've said. Because i've told you to stop analysing.
I'll answer specific questions on technique, for letting go. And I'll be happy to hear you've made the decision to change. And to give up your old identity and be open to the new one: the person you want to become to save your marriage and your sanity. But if you start analysing what i've said, rather than just doing it, you've missed the point.
Best of luck to you.
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reader, PM  +, writes (25 June 2010):
 "sex is the most sacred, meaningful thing that two people can share. I value it so highly, I have always thought of it as the end all be all gesture of love between two people, as the emotional, physical, mental climax of all of life . . ."
This, in my opinion, is the fundamental difference which forms the chasm between your reality and hers.
You see sex as a beautiful, intimate and sacred thing while her actions suggests that she sees it, partially (at the very least), as something to do "just for fun."
That is why she doesn't see having had sex with strangers as a big deal and that is why you see it as a big deal. For you, the sexual act holds meaning. It's an indication of a bond, of a connection, of the intermingling of lives that should be reserved for certain people. For her, at least in those situations, sexual interaction was just a bit of fun. It was being caught up in the moment and enjoying the pure physical and emotional ecstasy of it.
You also seem to believe that wanting to have meaningless sex shows a lack of self-respect or a desire for respect. I'm not sure if this is because you believe that doing so means that she was used as sexual plaything or was "giving in" to her base desires or perhaps something else, but in her mind it was likely none of these things. She wanted to have sex, so she had it. She didn't want a name, she wanted to be lost in the thrill and the excitement of the moment. The connection between sex and a lack of respect was likely no where in her mind.
I have had sex with people I've barely known and I've had sex with people I've really cared about. Sex with strangers is essentially the emotional equivalence of masturbation while sex with loved ones takes on a very strong emotional significance. If it helps you gain some perspective on her interpretation of what she did, you can try thinking of what she did as masturbation with help.
Hope that helps.
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reader, Miamine  +, writes (25 June 2010):
 No, I loved the length and the frankness in your most current post.. I was getting pissed of by what I could see as your "cruelty" in continuing to demand she relive her past..
But your last post, that was beautiful, hard for me to understand, but honest and truthfull and very understanding, of you and of her...
Lots for us all to think about.. yes, she broke your "holy values", yes what she did was not little, yes you are not judgemental about everything, you accept and understand most of her past..
The question of personal responsiblity, actions, and choice are important to you... however, when we are feeling vunerable or on a path of destruction, these things disappear... I've been there myself, I've suprised myself at how easy it was to throw away my own morality when I am in a destructive mode...
Thank you again for your update, as you said, lots to think about and digest.. blessing and wishing for some healing and happiness for you and your dear wife.. :)
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reader, Kama +, writes (24 June 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionSo, I considered starting a new post because my views and questions have changed so much since this original one, but so not to litter up DC with too much of my queries, I'll just stick to this one and see if anyone has any additional thoughts. I want everyone who has responded, even those who are down on me and think I am abusive, to know that I appreciate your time and energy that you give here. Genuinely. There is truth in the criticisms of my actions. I only hope you can understand that I too feel them; I know I am not 'just' here. But this does not change the way I feel.So here's where I'm at now: I understand that I I don't envy what she has done. I spent a lot of time (and much of it was the result of counseling, probably not the best counseling) confusing myself with the idea that somehow I am envious of the experience, that I wish I could have it myself, and I am taking out the fact that I never had it on her. I see that this isn't the case at all, but rather than I am genuinely disturbed by what she did, and cannot neatly 'put it away' into the past - it persists because I cannot believe that the woman I know and love was capable of such a thing. So, in the spirit of keeping my marriage alive, and of trying as hard as I can to not feel so awful (some of my days of recent have been so painful and lonely, empty, and she is of course affected too; I am not angry or demeaning with her, but we recognize that this is a very real problem for us and she is clearly concerned along with me) how do I proceed toward accepting that she simply is capable of this thing, and still love her as I did before I knew she had done it? How can I put these two women together? It is all her, but I am honestly still in shock that she could ever think it was OK to do this. It feels impossible that the woman I love is that same person. I want to accept that she has changed, I want to be able to see past what hurts, but I get the feeling that there is something in her that is . . . (and I am going out on a limb here to be honest) almost . . . utterly immoral, vacant, blind, almost, and I do not mean to say that this is what she is, but that the act itself and the circumstances were . . . almost ... evil. I am not religious, but I feel like she was playing with the devil's fire were such a thing to exist. I don't want to impose my moral standards on her; I cannot change the past, but how does one accept that something that disturbs you so can be erased for the sake of the future?A few more details are necessary for you all to understand: 1)there were months of drugs and less serious physical contact that she had with this person's friends before the random encounter with the him, the stranger. This is all makes me feel awful because she was given so many opportunities to see what she was doing, but in the end, in her words, she just did what she thought "people just do," especially the ones she was hanging around with. So there is an aspect to this that is based in her just "following the herd." 2) On the other hand, it was clearly all of her individual free will, so I can't just chalk it up to 'the herd.' She actually initiated the oral sex with this man; she ended up in a room together with him (her 'friends,' a man and a woman with whom she had been less intimate, but had made out with simultaneously in the previous weeks were having sex in the next room - the woman regularly took drugs from the man - they were not 'dating') and without even asking his name, or knowing anything about him, my wife started the kissing which lead to the oral sex. That was her; she was aroused - this can't be the person that I know. . . it's unimaginable to me that this was my wife. I think things like "how is it possible for her to be aroused by this?" and "how could she ever think it was OK to just initiate sex with a stranger much older than her who she did not know a single thing about?" (of course, the drugs, the lack of friendship, the shallowness of these people using each other for drugs and sex is also there) 3) I can anticipate a lot of the responses to falling victim to the following idea, but it is still on my mind, and what the hell, I've done a good job of making myself look like a fool so far, so I may as well continue: She was able to reach orgasm with this man. Yes, I know perhaps it doesn't matter, but I am still in the place where the fact that she did have an orgasm seems even more unbelievable . . . how was she not aware enough of the downsides, the eeriness, to what she was doing to herself, (for instance, the dangers of disease, that he had no feelings for her and did not even know her name) for her body to react in a way that was not based in desire?4) Related to the last one, and to dig myself an even deeper hole (please, don't be too judgmental of me, I do not want to hurt her or just make it worse): I know that she enjoyed it, and I'm crushed because -- let's face it; sex is the most sacred, meaningful thing that two people can share. I value it so highly, I have always thought of it as the end all be all gesture of love between two people, as the emotional, physical, mental climax of all of life . . . How can I retrieve the feeling that I can still have this with my wife who has initiated and enjoyed giving of herself in that way with a stranger? This question affects me daily - after we have sex I can forget about it for awhile, but leading up to sex, and as I think about my beautiful wife during the day while we are at work, all of my desire for her is conflicted and confused, even joined intimately with the knowledge that what I want the most from her is not at all sacred . . . God, I love her so much, I love her, but even though I know this does not describe who she is, it does not define her, it is still there . . . she has had the most meaningful part of life with someone with whom she did not know for longer than an hour. . . 5)I understand that many, in response to the last one, will say that our sex is so much more meaningful, and that what she did with this man was 'meaningless' . . . but does anyone, especially those who have been on my end or hers, actually believe that? Does anyone really believe that sex is entirely different (in terms of meaning) with a stranger than with someone you know? To me it seems fundamentally *the same,* it's always completely strange, weird, the ultimate paradoxical situation where we find ourselves dying a small death in orgasm, achieving complete forgetfulness in the moment of climax . . . So, if we can admit that sex is always strange, never "whole" always partially unknown and primitive, how can I assign meaning to what we do that is more significant than what she did with this man? I understand that I am looking to "be better" than that was for her, but this isn't really wrong is it? Wouldn't you feel the same? Is it truly wrong to feel hurt as I do by what she has done?6)That's really the heart of where I'm at. I picture her having the orgasm, initiating the act, and I *feel* consistently, impulsively, and undeniably that something was given by her in that moment, that she 'gave something,' that she or I can never get back. And the brutal truth is that I know I am obsessing, that I know it is not mine to take back, that these were her decisions, and that I cannot control them. Yet, how can I give up the impulse to want to be filled up, to receive from her, what she gave in that moment? I feel that those kisses and desire where given to a ghost, to something I can never understand. . . Is that what I'm doing to myself? Trying to be that stranger so that I can protect her from him, from herself? Did she actually 'hurt' herself in that moment, or is it only I who am hurt?**Perhaps this is the most important paragraph: If I did not love her so, I would forget. The intensity of how my heart is twisted, how I feel my spirit being torn by that night of hers is too much to bare; my conception of her is of someone to be revered and cared for deeply, to be loved, appreciated, above all, respected. That night, and all that I have described to you challenge this conception - does that make sense? **It is as though the two cannot coexist . it is as though my mind short-circuits when trying to put the two together . . It is as though she gave up, gave away wanting to be treated respectfully for the momentary pleasure of a stranger . . . I am deadened and destroyed that she simply did not say "no, I am worth more, I want more intimacy, I will not do this. I want at least to know your name."We are currently trying to work it out. I know given all of that there will be few of you who believe that. But it's true, and my intentions are not to punish or control her. I simply want to be able to remove these awful feelings of losing her to the past. I don't know how. I know the first step is to actively fight the obsessing - to leave the past back there. But it bleeds into my everyday life, even when I look her in the eyes and just want to feel the wholeness of her being; it feels that there is part of her missing, that is given over to that (for lack of a better word) evil . . . fire. All, after typing this, I realize that this might be the very heart of it. In my own non-religious way, I feel that my wife has betrayed, and was orgasmic in betraying, everything that I hold to be good and holy in life. That sounds a bit stupid, but when I look at her in the eyes, I want desperately to feel that she had not been where she was, as it does, even if a smallish way, influence who she is today. She had had one night stands in the past, but always with someone she knew, with whom she exchanged some thoughts, and their names. I am not envious of these things, and I do not think that she was morally wrong for doing them. This scenario for me though is not the same. It has created so many question marks and negative emotions for me, and this has lead me here. I hope you can forgive me for being so frank, and so utterly and genuinely hurt and confused by myself, and by her.
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reader, Kama +, writes (23 June 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThis has nothing to do with how we choose to conduct our present sex lives. It has everything to do with me feeling like there is a gap of understanding between my wife and I; that part of her is to me, completely other, unknown, undesirable. Your suggesting that because I'm not into role playing I also can't understand what many call "casual sex" with strangers is weird to me. I don't think there's really a connection there at all.
I try to understand, accept her past (emphasis on accept) but during our closest moments I'm haunted by the ghost of where she's been, and why she was there - these memories that were her, moment by moment replace the good things between us with doubt, pain, a feeling of distance between us. I have repeatedly recognized that this is mostly my problem. It is in my head. But goddamnit can thoughts and knowledge of the past hurt.
I have been propositioned by women I did not know several times in my life who want to just go home and sleep with me, no strings. I always end up talking to them instead and the last time this happened the girl told me that she had never been treated like I was treating her, that she had never felt respected like I was respecting her. I try to tell myself that if I'm capable of respecting a strange girl like this, that I should be capable of respecting my wife like this. But it's apples and oranges. The one is a passing moment, the other is the rest of your life.
I'm not hung up on wanting my wife to be a virgin, or to be with less people than she has been. Rather, it's a line that she crossed, she even initiated the crossing, a place she went that makes me suspect her entire character as being uncaring. She even says herself that she felt like she was sabotaging herself, that since she had been badly hurt by a guy in her past that she wanted to make sure it wouldn't happen again. Is it my responsibility to take the brunt of those actions? Had she not lied to me when we met and thereafter, we wouldn't be in this spot, and there is a reason she lied: even though she was being tough stuff and showing how indifferent she could be, seeking that power, getting off on the sleazy scene, whatever, she knew afterward that it was wrong. She knows now, has said herself that she hid it from herself for years, refused to take responsibility, separated that girl from this one. I believe she has some growing up to do - I recognize that I do as well. We're reaching the end of the road here - I'm not going to drag this out. I have to decide what to do; I have no intention to string her along. My heart is truly broken, and I refuse to believe that I am doing this because I am being cruel hearted, or intend only to abuse others. What she did has a primitive effect on my entire being; I am doing my best to deal, but my heart is broken. THanks to those of you who have tried to engage with me
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reader, anonymous, writes (23 June 2010): "I always wanted a girl who didn't drop her pants for total strangers..." (Karma)You don't sound like you have any respect for your wife at all. Your putting her through hell for something she cannot change. This is a form of domestic violence, you are abusing that poor woman...You can't regain respect, because you don't want to.. put her and yourself out of this misery. She cannot change her past, you now dislike her and think she is a "lesser person".. leave this woman, get a divorce, in the end I think it will make her happier..You, I feel will always have problems, there are very few people who have your value system when it comes to love, romance and sex..Yes.. I read your post when you say you don't allow role playing in the bedroom.. leave the woman and find someone who is more like you.
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reader, anonymous, writes (23 June 2010): You need to stop thinking so much. That's the root of this problem. You seem to genuingly believe that your woman is less of a woman for having casual sex. As long as you have that association you will never get over your issue, end of the matter.
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reader, Kama +, writes (22 June 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionI don't feel that I'm sacrificing my ideals, but I do feel like she has sacrificed hers. What I feel I am sacrificing is the peace of mind during sex (as well as not during it) that I used to feel with my partners when I knew that what we were doing had remained special and respected enough to them that it had only been shared with people they knew and or cared about. So, having written that, I guess that can be interpreted as giving up my ideals . . .
This is the hardest thing I've ever dealt with. It feels like a test of love, but I don't know if it's that simple, or if it's worth it. I would miss her so much, but I can't stop feeling like that lovely sex part of her that I value so much she no longer values, has not valued, etc. All I know is I can't do this forever------
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reader, anonymous, writes (21 June 2010): Is she worth it? You're sacrificing your ideals for her. That's something i could never do. I wish you luck but my gut is telling me that it will end in tears.
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reader, Kama +, writes (21 June 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionDear anon (the last one), Yes, I know it is only up to me to decide, and like you would I feel very let down and disappointed for two reasons - that she did it and then that she lied about it to protect her interest. During the last few months, since my latest episode of being very depressed and thinking I have to leave her, she has woken up a bit - and it's because I have, and believe for the first time that I would, threatened to leave her if she doesn't change the way that she deals with my issues about this. Well, she is changing a little, and I do love her. This is the hardest thing I've ever dealt with in my entire life. On the one hand I feel that I'll be giving up my life with this great friend and lover id I leave, and on the other I feel that if I don't leave that I will think about this for the rest of my life. All I know is that a lot of what I will decide to do will depend on her actions right about now, and in the coming months. She doesn't owe me anything special, but understanding of why it kills me is crucial. If she can't get that, I will leave. I feel like in staying with her I've given up something -- I wish I could just understand if what I have given up is "real." I always wanted a girl who didn't drop her pants for total strangers - I don't think that's too much to ask, but in my married life, it is. Wish me luck, and thanks for your ideas.
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reader, anonymous, writes (18 June 2010): I think you should listen to your head more. That's your brain talking, not your insecurities.Is your wife responsible for anything that happened in her life? Or is she truly the helpless puppy she would have you believe?Her behavior is so typical! She knew this would bother you so she lied to you. Then she acts like she doesn't understand why it bothers you. If she doesn't why did she feel the need to lie? She acts like she understands but then gets angry. She's giving you the "helpless puppy" speech, yet she engaged in this trashy behavior for months. She did it on her own free will. She's capable of it. There's a part of her personality that accepts this kind of behavior.These are the facts. The only question here is whether or not you can tolerate this. I have to be honest: this is the number one dealbreaker as far as i'm concerned. Only you can decide how and if you can live with such a person. Just don't make the usual mistake: don't ask her to justify what she did. She'll say the same story over and over again because she knows that's what you want to hear.She wanted it. Pure and simple. She doesn't share your values. Period. Now it's your move.
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reader, Kama +, writes (10 June 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThank you Miamine, thank you Tisha.
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reader, Tisha-1  +, writes (10 June 2010):
 Kama, you're welcome. I hope things work out for you. All the best.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (10 June 2010):
Here they are Karma, when you have time, take a look at these 3 links
http://www.dearcupid.org/question/i-would-not-have-married-her-had-i.html
http://www.dearcupid.org/question/retroactive-jealousy--how-do-i-overcome-it.html
http://www.dearcupid.org/question/how-do-i-cope-with-my-husbands-reaction.html
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reader, Miamine +, writes (10 June 2010):
Yes, Gottman's Four Horsemen article was brilliant, good for everyone to take on board.. think I'll print it and keep it for myself.
I'll try and track down Yos's recommended posts on this issue..
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reader, Kama +, writes (9 June 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionTisha,
I am reading Yos' postings now. Thank you for your help.
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reader, Kama +, writes (9 June 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionShe does not have a personality disorder, and she is working through this with me. I still take the majority of the blame for this. Some of what R&B has speculated does not fit at all, but a lot of it does. Gottman's four Horsemen is also hugely helpful and insightful. I've made a lot of progress through this post personally, and it is translating directly into my relationship. Just keep in mind that I don't believe or take too seriously what any of you say, as a rule. But some of you are much more helpful than others, and to those I listen a little closer. I thank everyone for trying to offer what they had to help us through this. Thank you.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (9 June 2010):
It's funny how we've gone from a wife who was working through this with you in your original post, to a wife who now has a serious personality disorder...
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reader, anonymous, writes (9 June 2010): A relationship is a “field.” Field theory was developed by Kurt Lewin, a Gestalt psychologist and founder of Social Psychology, in the 1940’s. “Field theory holds that behavior must be derived from a totality of coexisting facts. These coexisting facts make up a ‘dynamic field,’ which means that the state of any part of the field depends on every other part of it. Behavior depends on the present field rather than on the past or the future” (Wikipedia). In other words, a change in one part of the system creates a reaction or ripple effect throughout the entire the system, just like throwing a pebble into a pool of water.
Changing how you respond to your partner’s hurtful behaviors, will change how your partner responds to you. If you’re dating or married to an abusive personality, they’re unlikely to respond well to any changes you make. Abusive individuals make the rules and break the rules. Thus far it’s been your role to go along with her whims, tirades, and more subtle forms of abuse. Her hurtful and insensitive behaviors are designed to get a reaction from you. She wants to see pain flicker in your eyes. She wants to see you wince and become crestfallen. She wants you to sink down to her level and lash out in return so she can play the victim and portray you as the bad guy—never mind how much she provoked you.
Here are some possible primary and secondary gains for remaining in an abusive relationship:
Fear of being alone
Fear of losing money and assets
Fear of losing access to children and parental rights
Fear of being viewed as the “bad guy”
Fear of “failure”
Fear of the unknown
Need for approval
Need to be liked or loved
Need for acceptance
Need for affiliation or feeling like you “belong”
Reinforces your beliefs that you’re unlovable
Reinforces your beliefs that you have to be perfect to be worthy of love
Reinforces your beliefs that you have to work hard to earn love
Reinforces your beliefs that the people who love you are supposed to hurt you
These needs, fears and beliefs are what make it possible for your abusive spouse or partner to hurt you and keep hurting you. They prey upon these fears, needs and beliefs even if they’re not consciously aware of it. Many abusers, narcissists, borderlines, sociopaths and bullies are intuitive predators. They intuitively know what buttons to push to get a reaction. In order to change your role and the rules of your relationship, you need to rewire your “buttons.”
Since your abusive spouse or partner is unlikely to change their behavior, real change is up to you. Here are some alternative ways to respond to her abusive behaviors:
Practice emotional detachment.
Develop a blank, benign facial expression when you’re under attack, baited, ignored or made to feel stupid, wrong or bad.
Work on maintaining a non-defensive body posture.
Learn to modulate your voice so that it doesn’t betray any anxiety, agitation, fear, hurt or anger.
Meet her attacks, put-downs, smirks, eye rolls, hysterics, etc., with unblinking calm and firmly state, “These tactics of yours don’t work anymore. Let me know when you’re ready to respectfully discuss these issues one at a time” and then end the “discussion.”
Plan ahead and designate a place you can go if she won’t let the matter drop like your office, den, workshop or a friend’s house.
If she follows you and continues to try to get a reaction out of you, look at her as if you’re watching a toddler throw a tantrum and tell her you’re taking a timeout.
When you change your role in the relationship dynamic, your partner will probably begin to escalate her hurtful behaviors. Another tenet of field theory is that all systems fight to maintain homeostasis or the status quo. An abusive partner will use every weapon in her arsenal to keep you under her control. When you refuse to give her the reaction she wants she’ll frantically try pushing all of your buttons at once—kind of like when the TV remote control isn’t working and you push the power button repeatedly so you don’t have to get off the couch.
If you can maintain your cool, she’ll eventually give up and walk away in frustration or pout. She may even become physically aggressive when she realizes her typical verbal aggression isn’t working. Adopting the above behaviors and changing your role in the relationship is for your well-being; not hers.
Behaviors and beliefs are strongly related. When you change the way you behave, your beliefs and attitudes will change, too. You’ll grow out of your old familiar role of target/frustrated spouse/scapegoat-for-everything-wrong-in-her-life-and-every-bad-feeling-she-has and become a person who stands up for and respects himself. This is a significant piece of identity development that may very well cause you to outgrow abusive, one-sided relationships altogether—and that’s a good thing.
When she sees that these are lasting changes and she can’t control you anymore, she’ll accuse you of having changed, engage in projection and tell you that you’re being abusive and controlling and/or may actually end the relationship herself. She may enlist friends, family members and professional therapists or pastors to force you back into your old role in an effort to maintain the status quo.
Alternatively, she may withdraw entirely and become the sullen martyr. Nevertheless, her power over you will be gone because she won’t be able to manipulate you and your emotions like a puppet on a string anymore. Are you ready to change your role, the rules and the balance of power in your relationship?
by Dr Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD
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reader, Miamine +, writes (9 June 2010):
Rereading all the posts again... a couple of things stand out..
1. You'd rather not feel like this, but you are in pain and suffering, it's not something you can help.. you need your wife to understand this and help you by working through this together.
2. You have deep morality.. Her lies in the begining and the things that she was willing to do in her past have left you confused and untrusting... the type of woman who lies, does drugs and sex without meaning is a woman who could do anything and is not somebody you can understand at all..
3. So.. how can you reconcile what she says, and what she has done, what are you to believe....
mmm.. again, is that it?
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reader, anonymous, writes (9 June 2010): http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2010/01/15/bad-relationships-change-your-role-and-the-rules-of-engagement/
Unhappy couples tend to engage in what psychologist John Gottman calls the “Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse”: criticism, contempt, defensiveness and stonewalling. “They get stuck in negative, destructive patterns, have fewer positive interactions than happy couples and are unable to resolve problems.” These four behaviors are frequently how abusive personalities, particularly narcissists and borderlines, control and communicate with their partners.
When you tell someone that their behavior is hurtful and unacceptable, there are several possible outcomes. She or he can:
Hear what you say, hold themselves accountable, respect your feelings and actively try to change. Translation: I love and respect you. I care about your feelings and will make every effort to change.
Hear what you say, hold themselves accountable, respect your feelings, communicate which of your behaviors are contributing to the situation and you both actively try to change. Translation: I love and respect you. I care about your feelings and will make every effort to change.
Acknowledge their hurtful behavior, but hey, you knew what they were like when you married them so get used to it and stop complaining. Translation: I don’t care about your needs and feelings. I won’t change.
Acknowledge their hurtful behavior and then blame you for it. Translation: I’m not responsible for my actions. It’s your fault. You deserve it. I don’t care about your feelings. I won’t change.
Acknowledge their hurtful behavior, make a lame apology while justifying their actions (blame you), repeat the same hurtful behavior over and over again as if you never talked about it and become angry if you don’t forgive them. Translation: What I want is more important. I don’t care about your feelings. I won’t change.
Deny their hurtful behavior and accuse you of being the abusive one. Translation: I’m above reproach. You’re crazy. My needs and feelings are the only ones that matter. You need to adapt yourself to my silences and rages and pretend like nothing is wrong. I don’t care about your feelings. I won’t change.
Minimize their hurtful behavior and accuse you of being oversensitive and unreasonable. “It’s not that bad. Don’t be such a baby. You’re so thin-skinned.” Translation: I’m not accountable. Your nose broke because it got in the way of my fist, so your nose should apologize to my fist. I don’t care about your feelings. I won’t change.
People persist in both positive and negative behaviors because there’s a payoff; a primary gain or secondary gain. They’re rewarded with pleasure, they avoid punishment or an unpleasant consequence, their beliefs are validated or they get to feel good about themselves. There’s always an emotional, psychological and/or physical stake—feeling good or avoiding feeling bad.
Scenarios 1 and 2 are the only mutually satisfying long-term relationship outcomes. Scenarios 3-7 are either “get out now” or “live a life of resignation” outcomes. This may seem black and white, but if someone won’t acknowledge their bad behavior, blames you for it or acknowledges it and refuses to do anything about it, you’re not in a mutual two-way relationship. You’re in an abusive, one-way relationship.
Staying in the relationship and engaging in the same pattern over and over again, telegraphs that the abuse is okay—even if you actively complain about it to your partner and specifically say “it’s not okay.” If you really weren’t okay with it, you’d communicate with your feet.
If you’re not ready to end the relationship just yet, you need to change the one person you can change: YOU. If you’ve told your partner how hurtful her/his behavior is and she/he refuses to acknowledge it and/or attacks you even more, you need to change how you react and respond to the hurtful and abusive behaviors.
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reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (8 June 2010):
I know I'm late to the question and I'm sorry that I don't have more time to read and absorb all the posts to add my own thoughts. However, I think I can safely say that I wouldn't add much to this other than to point you toward an Aunt here named "Yos" who spends a lot of time on retrograde jealousy, which is if I understand it correctly, what you are dealing with right now.
He's been there, done that, got the t-shirt and I think he would be your best bet for some practical and emotional support. You can PM him, I'm sure he'll respond if he gets the message; in the meantime, I strongly suggest you go back and read all his previous posts. http://www.dearcupid.org/people/yos
This is not a condition I am familiar with, nor am I any kind of expert. My initial reaction when reading this kind of post when I was new here was to say, "get over it, it's in the past." However, as I have spent some time reading Yos's answers, as well as those from another (now gone) aunt named TroubledTooMuch, I have come to learn that what you are experiencing is not uncommon, nor apparently is it something you can wish away, much as I'm sure you'd like to.
That's basically all I've got for you; I wish you well as you seek answers and some kind of resolution for your feelings.
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reader, anonymous, writes (8 June 2010): OP,
I want you to PM me...and stop listening to these other aunts attacking you, they simply don't get it nor do I expect them to... I think I can give you lots of informative articles to read about "your" problem.
You are not self absorbed, you are dealing with a rather disordered person, you have no idea what I am talking about but I am going to enlighten you...it just might save your life, and that is what you deserve, not this load of crap on here.
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reader, serenity80 +, writes (8 June 2010):
At the end of the day, the only reason it makes any difference that your wife sucked some strangers cock for drugs or sucked the cock of a friend is that you have never been on the receiving end of having a girl do that for you. Sorry if that sounds frank, but that's the crux of it isn't it?If you keep on trying to compare your sexual history to your wife's, you will always stay in a vicious circle that will destroy the love and respect you have for her.You need to accept that she DID do something YOU did not. Maybe, morality aside, you feel less of a man, and if you could have "used" women in the same way, you'd feel a whole lot better because you could understand it now. Maybe the fact you didn't has caused you to take moral high ground and viciously and unreasonably judge your wife.Maybe though, your wife loves you because you are not the kind of man to have had these kind of encounters with women? Maybe you need to accept that it is what it is, and there is nothing you can change but how you interpret what has happened.Maybe life can seem a little unfair for the "nice" guys that don't end up in the casual sex encounters that are advantageous to the man. Whatever though, the love you have for your partner should come from a place of putting how she feels first. You need to OWN your problem as yours, be a strong, emotionally strong MAN to her, stop looking to your wife for solutions and start putting her feelings first. If you don't, you're going to destroy what could be a beautiful marriage.
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reader, BunnyTee +, writes (8 June 2010):
 "Obsessional fire", indeed.
Brass tacks:*how do *anonymous* flings / oral "experiences" differ from having sex with someone you know? Or don't they? How are they the same?*
Anon. flings differ in that : they're ANONYMOUS. Casual, uncalculated, spontaneous, impulsive, typically meaningless, and instantly disposable.
No, it's not the atypical female behavior pattern, but it can and does happen. Before I was married, I had indulged in it a time or two. (but that's all! then I was off the stuff for good!)
Compare to: same reason men can say the fixation with porn is meaningless, it's a flash-in-the pan, serves the purpose of the moment thing. Same operative at work.
I think the infidelity aspect is the bigger issue, here. That's big enough in and of itself without the fixation on a single aspect.
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reader, YouWish +, writes (8 June 2010):
 She isn't the one with the problem. You are. You should be apologizing and validating HER for your obsessive treatment of her past before you. She shouldn't be smoothing your ruffled feathers forever.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (8 June 2010):
What can she blame you for? The only thing you are responsible for is demanding she relive her past which probably causes her pain.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (8 June 2010):
So it dosen't mean that she has to repeat the story of the past... all she has to do is listen to how your feeling?
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reader, Kama +, writes (8 June 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionIt means to listen. To not get mad. To pay attention to. To care. To be involved with. To understand. Taking a moment to recognize that my feelings matter. Taking several moments to do that. Maybe even going out of the way to show that she doesn't blame me anymore. Telling me it isn't my fault, or all my fault. But the most important parts I can't tell you or her how to do. That's up to her; that's her love; that's hers to invent.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (8 June 2010):
*sorry.. or her..
How dose your wife do this "validation" thing?
Does she need to recognise your in pain? Do she need to apologise for her past? Dose she need to admit that she was wrong? What is it that you need?
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reader, Miamine +, writes (8 June 2010):
Ok.. lets break this down.. Let me try to understand what you want...
"I want to be validated now, I want to validate her now,"
Validate how, what dose this mean? Your in pain, definitely, thoughts about her past hurt you, yes, deeply...
But how do I, or anyone else or help to "validate" you? Please explain?
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reader, Kama +, writes (8 June 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionR&B,
Thanks for the tips about psychologists. We had gone to see a graduate student about this, but she ended up dealing more with our larger patterns of misunderstanding one another in social situations (which was on my wife's mind more than mine). We'd go back if we could, but we can't afford it right now. I will go back though, and to someone more qualified.
I don't think she has a personality disorder as much as she has just been lazy about dealing with her mistakes, often lazy to the point of lying about them - the pathological part fits perfectly, the rest not so much. She does get furious about it, and she does turn it back on me, as though I have no right to bring it up, and as though I am sick for being bothered. I do feel like I'm losing my mind, often. She has not at all been sensitive to me in this way. I have kept it locked up for so long because of being ashamed and feeling flawed and it just persists.
My anguish about decisions, both to do the act and more importantly to consistently lie about it to me afterward and ignore my pleas for help has just reached a point where I must resolve it. You and starmonster888 have been the most help here. I am not a perfect person, but I don't deserve to feel like shit about myself for the length of time that I have. I am deeply emotionally invested in the people that are close to me, especially her. Why can't I ask the same from her? I will keep what you say in mind about examining my own treatment of myself - this is helping already - not to validate jealousy or mean spiritedness, but rather simply to allow me to feel like I don't have to be alone with my problems. It's been very lonely!
To the rest of you,
I don't think I can change my wife's past for God's sake. Please stop telling me I am trying to. I'm not. I want to be validated now, I want to validate her now, THIS is where my energy is being directed, NOT in hurting her because I am too ignorant or deranged to forgive. Miamine, I am not asking her to justify anything! She can't. All she can do is stop making me feel like I have to carry this around by myself; how she can do that is up to her - I can't tell her how to love. It's hard enough to justify my emotions to her; I'm not even going to try to do it on here to those of you who simply want to tell me that I'm simply in the wrong. I have my own ideas of what is acceptable in a woman - if I told her that I had bought a young girl with drugs and used her sexually, I bet she'd be bothered, and you know what, I wouldn't ignore her. I wouldn't. I wouldn't lie either, it's never been my way.
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reader, anonymous, writes (8 June 2010): I suppose it was possible she lied to have a "chance", but I seriously doubt that considering she uses her Hotness to control men, if you reread he OP's post she lied when they were already a couple, and withheld the information in the beginning bout the drug use, etc....I think this is a big deal, he has a right to know about that kind of past, dating is a selection process, it isn't supposed to be duck and cover and catch me if you can in a lie....grow up you people on DC or who ever you are using to justify this as simply no big deal.
And yes, I think it has already been said that a professional is the only one qualified to make a diagnosis of a personality disorder. Someone can be a very difficult patner just having strong traits of this stuff and it is imperative to deal with the truth of what is at the core of the problem instead of to take a defensive stance.
Values should never be negotiated or covered up, preferences are another matter. No one has a preference for lying that I am aware of. Honesty is one of his core values, why should he get over that for her, or get over his integrity issues as she had the nerve to call it.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (8 June 2010):
Yes.. "the past is another country.. once we leave there is no passport to get back".
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reader, Miamine +, writes (8 June 2010):
You say that you've noticed she hasn't changed... what dose that mean... has she been unfaithful to you, is she doing things with drugs again?
"I want is for her to give up the control and to learn not only to soothe herself, but also me. Instead, I think she is seeking out that next high risk behavior - leaving me and probably going back to more of the same."
This is probably because she has now become unhappy... How can she sooothe herself when you keep on asking her about a bloody blowjob she did on some dirty old man... that wouldn't soothe me either.
"As long as she doesn't have to answer to anything in the past, or anything in the future, she's largely still in control. The resounding sentiments of 75% of the people on here are "that's exactly as it should be."
Do you not see something wrong with your thinking.. you are asking her to justify her past to you, you are asking her to apologise for doing things before she even knew you existed.. You have set yourself up as judge and jury... This type of behaviour is very, very, emotionally abusive. Who else should be in control of her past... YOU? But you was not there, it is her past to control, she knows what it meant and how it felt.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (8 June 2010):
:)
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reader, anonymous, writes (8 June 2010): :)
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reader, anonymous, writes (8 June 2010): Having indiscriminate sex is nothing new, she had sex with someone before she met him is not a sign of mental illness.No, but the fact that she presented herself as a different person when they met and when he point blank asked her about her sexual past she lied and she lied hard to cover it up and then got mad at him for feeling upset about the lying and about being duped is a sign that she may be personality disordered or have traits like that. The intensity of her anger is unknown, his feelings of feeling like he is wrong to feel the way he does based on that anger and her manipulations and discounting may be an indication that she is a problem person and his stress levels are going through the roof. The fact that he feels burdened by guilt and blame for this issue of her lying, abusing drugs, having sex with same sex individuals or sex for drugs and her attitude of power and control in regards to her sexual indiscrimination indicate that she may fit the criteria for personality disordered woman.The fact that there is a disintegration of moral values and sexual mores in society exacerbates her argument and shuts him down because she can hammer it into him that she is being controlled by him and he is just has a problem getting over her sexual past, after all it was just sex and it was before she met him. Women with borderline personality disorder in particular, often feel controlled and abused when someone is trying to negotiate issues in a relationship when in fact they are the ones who are doing wrong, not taking responsibility for it and projecting their own feelings on to their partner. They run from intimacy because they fear abandonment, they can't stand how they feel so they devalue their partner to control that pain inside of them...the partner ends up walking on eggshells and supressing themselves....it is crazymaking.The fact of the matter is, knowing about a person's past relationship patterns and history of unstable relationships and substance abuse is valid and it all is part of a cluster fuck of over 257 traits of mental illness which can wear him down and lower the resolve and coping skills that he once had before entering into the pathological world of a personality disordered person.Do I know for sure this is what is going on, no. But I am not basing my opinion either on societies loosening morals or value of sex over relationship either and just tell him he is retroactively jealous and to get over it. First off that is the most ridiculous of possibilities in this relationship.I am not going to get into a pissing war over this with you Q. If you don't have anything constructive to say, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't.
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reader, anonymous, writes (8 June 2010): Dear OP,
I am not on this thread to try and "be right" in my answers to your question or in my judgement of you and your situation.
Something you might find interesting is that both my original posts were written to you Before you wrote on here about how drugs were involved and same sex partners.
The reason for that is because I am sizing up your wife's character traits that you are having trouble with, and the reason that I can be so "right on" about this without you telling me the whole story is because your wife's behavior is pathological, and there is a predictable pattern to that. It is a serious mental illness, if in fact she does have a personality disorder and romantic relationships with these people follow a predictable pattern or prognosis. Mental illness is real, much like a cancer say that has a beginning, middle and end to the illness.
With non personality disordered individuals, there is no predictable pattern. My guess is you are in a stage where your wife is actually devaluing you, and your feelings and turning the whole thing back on you, as your fault for even having those feelings in the first place. It can feel like you are literally losing your mind, and the guilt and shame are insurmountable. You are being brain washed pretty much and what you are going through coming to terms with this, with the fact that she may just not really love you, but instead be using you or dependant on you is excruciatingly painful. I know this from personal experience as I was in your shoes.
I don't want to go off on a tangent and tell you that your wife is pathological, but if any of this resonates with you, you owe it to yourself to educate yourself on these matters and to cut yourself some slack, not the other way around as Q suggests.
A lot of folks on here have gone trough drug addiction and risky sexual behavior that comes a long with that and many of them or even most of them do not have a personality disorder, they may have other problems like undiagnosed bipolar disorder or depression, hell, your wife may fall into that category instead of pathology, but the bottom line is this is not all your doing, you got here because you have been in a toxic relationship with a psychologically unhealthy woman and it is making you sick.
This isn't about you taking blame, I suspect she is doing that enough to you, hell I know I got that, but once I understood what was really going on, and that took a lot of time, I now know what to look for and avoid in a reationship with a person who may be this sort of dangerous type.....and at the very least if they aren't I don't own their issues as my own....I set my boundaries and that is that.
So forgive the other people on here who "don't get it" there is no possible way that they could without either having been through it, or having studied Axis 2 personality disorders, and I can assure you they haven't and that is not something they would get by any stretch of the imagination on their own without it....
You will come out on the other side of this with or without her and that is all you need to believe in right now.
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reader, anonymous, writes (8 June 2010): Miamine, why is everything about you? If you feel you are wasting your time here, then you are, but don't put words my mouth. I am sure much of what you offer is very helpful to people. I am here to help this guy get unstuck, he's trying to validate his wife, when he should be focusing on himself and validating his own feelings.And OP, I am not suggesting that you end your marriage because of how you feel, I am suggesting that you look a little deeper into the fact that your wife may be the problem, and from what you have written further, I think you do have a wife that may not be capable of having the kind of healthy relationship that you so deserve. You really do deserve someone that wants to work on their own stuff, grow and change and take accountability for their actions.You sound like you are miserable and have been for some time in this marriage. I can't advise a solution for you because I think your issues are too complex for this forum.What I would suggest for you is to seek some therapy for yourself, because you need to process all of this and it will give you the much needed support in making such an important decision.Perhaps later you will determine that marital counseling might be worth a try if you haven't been there already.I urge you to be careful about the therapist you choose, ask your local mental health organization for someone who is skilled in dealing with addiction and or Axis 2 Personality Disorders and treating people who are emotionally exhausted having had to be in a relationship with a Pathological person. Again, I am not diagnosing your wife, only a professional can do that, but I bet dollars to donuts there is something like that at play here and you want a therapist who is going to understand what you are going through and not tell you that you are codependent or some BS like that.You can't possibly think that you are somehow responsible for your wife's character, decisions and behavior, but I can see that blaming is in her bag of tricks, right?Whether you go or stay is up to you....you can learn better ways of dealing with her, she can learn less maladaptive coping skills, depending on her level of pathology or even if it exists there is hope or not, but where you need to start is with a professional to evaluate all of that and get to the answers.I wish you well, hang in there and if you need anything else or have other questions I will do my best to point you to some resources.
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reader, Kama +, writes (8 June 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionJust to clarify my position R&B, I don't appeal to God or Country in order to feel very relieved by your words, but I do to Family. I just wanted you to know that. :)
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reader, Miamine +, writes (8 June 2010):
"some people do not know how to think. They have faulty logic, most of it too linear which allows them to justify just about anything in their own minds, even to help you with your problem."
You know what.. R&B is totally right.. I am wasting my valuable time here..
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reader, Kama +, writes (8 June 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionRhythm, You also said:
"You married your wife because of your strong sexual attraction to her, you discounted the less desirable aspects of her character and decided she ticked all the boxes and you married her. As long as she has been able to grow and change as a person, then you can get to the deeper levels of relationship where trust is secured.
Doesn't sound to me like you have gotten there with her. Maybe it is because it is impossible with her....I don't know her so I can't say if that is the case...
All I can say is for example, if you marry someone for money (many women do) you will be paying a high price for that every day.
Same thing goes for marrying a Hot wife who uses sex to control men. You pay for it every day and your manhood takes a beating"
It's true that a large part of why I married her was because I am attracted to her more strongly than anyone I have ever met, and it is also true that I ignored some of the less mature parts of her in hopes that they would mature. In addition, what is interesting to me about this insight of yours is (for us to "win" - to stay together) that it requires not only her, but me as well, to change. I think you're saying that I need to change the "you married a Hot wife who used sex to control men" into marrying a hot wife who is also willing and able to change and mature emotionally (as well as sexually). This requires not only my perception to change, but also her person. (if, as you point out, that is a possibility for her) Am I on the right track here? Am I reading carefully enough?
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reader, Kama +, writes (8 June 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionMiamine,
Don't feel like you have to do me any favors. It's alright to just say what you mean.
Ryhtemandblues2,
I don't know how to thank you enough; your words are especially valuable to me because you are a woman. In a lot of ways you are identifying things that I don't want to look at because I *do want her to be someone she isn't (or hasn't been); someone more emotionally mature, honest, and available.
For the first time, I'm considering the possibility of getting out of my marriage because after these years I can't say that I notice that she's changed. She says she'd never go back to doing the things she did, but she also has told me that she said this (I'll never go back) before she left her last boyfriend (they were together for a couple of years) just a year before she spent these months with those people and blew and was blown by Mr. Noname largely for drugs and to continue her policy of control. Thank you for not reducing my situation to the typical one - it brings tears to my eyes to know that someone gets it, that someone understands that it can't all be my fault. I thought this for long enough; I can't bare the weight any longer.
My wife says that she is a better person because I have helped her examine her own life - she admits this, but then gets pissed and short with me when I tell her that her past is bothering me again. I don't make a habit of it, but it's coming up again lately and I can't hide it anymore. It just gets worse when she gets made with me for telling her how I feel. Thank you for seeing that I love her and that I am committed. Whether I can stay that way is not just up to me, right? Thank you. Thank you.
She would also affirm much of what you say about control - that is exactly how she has dealt with boys for about a decade, and I also think she is doing it to me for some degree. As long as she doesn't have to answer to anything in the past, or anything in the future, she's largely still in control. The resounding sentiments of 75% of the people on here are "that's exactly as it should be." Oh well.
You said that
"Your wife has "issues" surrounding her Daddy or even her mother, early childhood neglect or abuse more than likely, but not necessarily required for this to happen....Your wife is deeply insecure and fears abandonment. This is a painful emotional state to be in, she hasn't learned how to self soothe her own emotional state, she seeks out high risk behaviors to feel better, whether it be risky sex, shopping excessively, substance abuse, etc....This is about "control".
I think that because of what you have said I am seeing that what I want is for her to give up the control and to learn not only to soothe herself, but also me. Instead, I think she is seeking out that next high risk behavior - leaving me and probably going back to more of the same. I think I am asking her to discover a new way of control that requires her to take my feelings into account along with her own in a way that is not answered or satiated by high risk behavior. This isn't something she's ever done to my knowledge. Wish us luck. I love her, but I am in a new place now. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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reader, anonymous, writes (7 June 2010): Ooops, I did it again answered your post before I read your subsequent posts.
This was something your wife did before your marriage. Let me tell you I don't agree with much of what has been written in response to your "delima" by the other aunts. I think they are giving it their best shot and giving it a lot of thought, but here in lies he problem...some people do not know how to think. They have faulty logic, most of it too linear which allows them to justify just about anything in their own minds, even to help you with your problem.
Your original question pointed to your faulty logic and the reason you are stuck trying to deal with this sticky situation that is a thorn in your marriage.
You are trying to wrap your head around the type of random meaningless sex that your wife had and assign some understanding and moral value to it, and I can appreciate that. You love this woman, you desperately want to "normalize" this behavior in some way so that you can accept the whole woman.
What it boils down to, and I know women like your wife who used to do things like this, and I know men too who have this type of sex, in fact I was in a relationship with him for two years.
This is what I have figured out, and it is backed up by a Phd Behavioral Psychologist who answered this very question for me.
Your wife is "hot", you said so yourself. Your wife has "issues" surrounding her Daddy or even her mother, early childhood neglect or abuse more than likely, but not necessarily required for this to happen....Your wife is deeply insecure and fears abandonment. This is a painful emotional state to be in, she hasn't learned how to self soothe her own emotional state, she seeks out high risk behaviors to feel better, whether it be risky sex, shopping excessively, substance abuse, etc....This is about "control". She uses her sexuality to control men, and as long as there are no serious consequences to this behavior, she will continue to do so in subtle and not so unsubtle ways. I am sure she is controlling you the same way, you just haven't figured it out because you love her. Why she has even managed to get you to be agonizing over this incident as your problem of retroactive jealousy....nah, there is more to it, more troubling things are going on with her and you just aren't putting your finger on it and calling a spade a spade.
You married your wife because of your strong sexual attraction to her, you discounted the less desirable aspects of her character and decided she ticked all the boxes and you married her. As long as she has been able to grow and change as a person, then you can get to the deeper levels of relationship where trust is sexured.
Doesn't sound to me like you have gotten there with her. Maybe it is because it is impossible with her....I don't know her so I can't say if that is the case...
All I can say is for example, if you marry someone for money (many women do) you will be paying a high price for that every day.
Same thing goes for marrying a Hot wife who uses sex to control men. You pay for it every day and your manhood takes a beating.
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reader, anonymous, writes (7 June 2010): Dear OP,
First let me state that I am sorry that you had to go through this and I admire you trying to get past it and keep your marriage in tact. You clearly are the committed one here and you are a good and decent man. I don't know the circumstances of your marriage or your life or your situation so I want you to know I am not passing judgement here. However, I do want you to know what my position is on this type of thing. What your wife did during your marriage by having anonymous sex with a stranger she never even got his name, would have sent me running for the hills, it would have been a deal breaker for me no matter how painful it would have been to end a marriage or let someone I love go, I would have.
Because here is the thing...we like to give labels to the victim's feelings like retroactive jealousy as a way to "normalize" the perpetrators behavior. What a crock of shit, excuse my language. Jealousy of this type has nothing to do with actual jealousy, it has to do with betrayal. Can you get over a betrayal in a relationship, yes, but it is very very hard and sometimes it simply is not the wisest thing to do for your own safety and sanity.
Our society is simply twisted and crazy, and we have lost our moral compass and things like narcissism and anti social behavior are on the rise. Someone who has this at pathological levels cannot even be helped through therapy, they are "wired" that way in their brain. Pathology has been studied at the brain level and it is very new research and in it's "virgin" stages, but it has been shown that there are actual brain abnormalities in people who have sociopathic personality disorder, and other personality disorders as well, meaning that no amount of medication on the market today or talk therapy is going to be able to change this person...they are problem people and they cause a lot of harm for those of us who are not personality disordered. The sad fact of the matter is that these people are not "crazy" they often are very high functioning in their work life, their personal lives are a mess, but they can contribute to society. They also know the difference between right and wrong, but they are not able to accept responsibility, or feel true remorse or have empathy for others.
I don't know your wife, I am not calling her personality disordered, but she certainly has some traits of someone who does have one. We can't just blame society, and the porn industry and lack of moral values because those of us who choose to regulate ourselves, and make good choices and care about the consequences of our behavior and make good choices in life are not affected by "society"....we are wired "normaly". That said people do make mistakes and lose their way, but they are able to learn and grow from their mistakes.
I can't ever imagine doing something like what your wife did, she has deeper problems than lack of morals or lack of committment to your marriage. This is what I would concern yourself, not how the type of sex she had how is it different? You already know the answer to that....Are people changing their values? Are they "worshiping" sex over other things like God, country and family? Absolutely, does an adult woman in a committed marriage suddenly change who she is because of shifting values? I doubt it...
I hope this helped you in some way, you are not the problem here, nor is your thinking, your feelings, or your inability to "understand" the sex. Don't try and "normalize" her bad behavior. It isn't anything of the kind.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (7 June 2010):
Yos, if I can remember was all for you fighting your own obsession yourself and trying to ignore it and push it away.
Troubletoomuch on the other hand found it useful talking about it with his wife and getting all the details until he could understand and process it through his head.
Two different ways of dealing with it...
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reader, Miamine +, writes (7 June 2010):
We have very, very good discussions about "retroactive jealousy".. again search the board for posts by either "Yos" or "troubletoomuch", they have suffered and in many discussions gave lots of different hints about how to overcome..
I'm still here and available for any questions you have to ask.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (7 June 2010):
Karma.. I like your post and the way you are approaching things...
I do not have time for jealousy in any form.. it is a destructive, non loving emotion..
You want to know what I really think.. again, it's not good to ask women things when you may not like the answer...
Sometimes it's best not to know things if you can't cope with them in a non-judgemental way.. :)
But here are my true feelings on this thing called "retroactive jealousy".. http://www.dearcupid.org/question/not-your-typical-obsession-with-wifes-past-.html
You remind me of my good friend "troubletoomuch" and on his behalf, I'm willing to moderate my language and help you understand what you need to and hope your the kind of man who can eventually get pass this issue from the past.
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reader, Kama +, writes (6 June 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionGabrielle,
You may, if you still feel you would like to.
Miamine,
My wife was rejected by a couple of men in her life, one in particular, that she claims sort of set off this behavior, so you are again insightful. She says that she was so crushed by one of them, that she wanted to cheapen the act of sex itself so that she wouldn't be vulnerable anymore. I don't personally believe that getting rejected by someone can be the sole cause of dropping your pants for a stranger, but perhaps I am completely naive. For me, there is *always personal choice and responsibility. In a very real sense, I want her to take responsibility for herself now before I can move on with her, and for me this involves her understanding, accepting, not getting mad with me about my being very hurt and confused and angry with what she did. Do you think that's cruel? I notice that you haven't said anything about whether you think it is OK for her to try and accept the problems I have with her past, and to even help me through them by not ignoring/getting mad (as has been her practice) that I still have an awful time a lot of the time. I would like her to actually initiate conversation about it. How do you respond to that?
To anyone,
As Miamine says, it is true that part of what I am doing is judging my wife for something that she got off on = enjoyed, a wild, risky, taboo time, and I know that ultimately I have to let it go, to stop judging like that, and to recognize that it isn't wasn't this wildly sexy thing for her, but just, as she says, meaningless friction. But in a very long time, I have not been able to, and after doing this post, and talking with my wife, I think I know why: I don't believe her when she ways it was meaningless friction because she has lied to me in the past about the circumstances, how far it went, what she does and does not remember, and so on.
So, as a natural result of this for me, I can't believe what she says it meant / felt like to her. How can we address this? It's as though her initial lying (and she did lie long and hard) has assured that I'm going to think some undesirable things about this scenario, which for me are that she loved every second of it, thinks about it afterward, was turned on with the anonymity, situation, whatever. I see where I'm at now like this:
This oral sex fling was the culmination of a couple months of hard drugs, making out with people who were trying to screw her by giving her hard drugs, going our clubbing with them, and so on. She finally caved and put out. What I let torture me is that she has those months to reflect on what she was doing, and she did not change it. We have put together on here (and my wife has agreed) that much of what she was doing was all power playing - like, "look, everyone wants to get with me, but I'm not having it . . . but I'll take their drugs, etc" So, I see this and I think: OK, this went on for months, she liked it, liked the attention, making out, drugs, whatever, the whole power trip. So how am I to forget about this thing that she did when it comes in the midst of all this fun, was perhaps even quite fun itself? Basically, the ideas I have been given about "it's not what you make it out to be when you torture yourself" are confusing to me because I know she, at least to some degree, enjoyed the act itself.
And that's where my heart just dies. Now folks, I don't know if I'm just looking at a very real part of humanity that all people are capable of, or what, but I can't handle it. I don't want to look at it. I don't want to ever have had looked at it. To remove oneself from the situation completely and feel physically and mentally comfortable enough to have an orgasm at the tongue of a complete stranger. Girls that do this just aren't for me, they never have been. However, I don't want am innocent virgin school girl. My wife has had other one night stands, and they don't bother me - she knew who these people were, she talked to them, she connected with them emotionally on some level. But this thing doesn't click; I look at her, and when I consider what she did, I cannot for the life of me put her together with that scene. Any further ideas about what we can do? Should she be open to helping me? Should I be open to believing that someday I can forget it? Should we give up? Does she have a responsibility to not get angry with me when I am miserable over this? Do I have a responsibility to her to forgive without her helping me do so? It's been years, and it still won't be resolved. Neither one of us can put up with it anymore. I just want everyone to know that I'm not obsessing over numbers slept with, or penis size, not at all (there is plenty of that going on on this site) - I hope you can see the difference
Another large thanks to everyone who has responded
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reader, Miamine +, writes (4 June 2010):
I suggest you take up Gabrielle's offer. Many aunts are not willing to open themselves up on the board, and a private letter would allow a longer conversation and more honesty than just a general response.
I would also suggest you search on the board for my freind Troubletoomuch, who has been through your situation and came through it with his wife beside him to find happiness and peace at last.
What we have done is done, it is not who we are. At that point in her life your wife seems to have wanted to explore the so-called "trashy" side of life and push at all the boundaries. Women do this sometimes when a)they feel rejected, hurt or disregarded, b) when they are overly protected and suffocated by home or society and they are not given breathing space to grow and make mistakes, c) when they dislike themselves, or have been made to dislike themselves, d) when there is past sexual abuse in their childhood...
Ask your wife if any of these ring a bell, but leave it until you both have quality time, if she has secrets to tell then you will need time to listen, try to understand and hold and comfort her. Your judging her as someone who was having a wild wonderful time. Often such experiences point to a "child" who is hurt and in pain and trying to fill a gap. She will need love and comforting, not judgement and disgust.
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reader, Gabrielle Stoker +, writes (4 June 2010):
 I think most of us are waiting to see if you have something to add.
Can I message you seperately? Am not sure I want to put up my own personal experiences up here.
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reader, Kama +, writes (4 June 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionStar888
appreciated. peace. (!)
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reader, Starmonster888 +, writes (4 June 2010):
 I just want to good luck. Hope our combined efforts suffice.
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reader, Kama +, writes (4 June 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionMicrophone check. Just testing to see if anyone has anything else to add. I appreciated your responses so much - If not, thank you.
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reader, Kama +, writes (2 June 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionI realized after reading my last post that it would help people to understand what I mean by "trashy," which seems more and more to me what this is all about in some Fed up way.
Trashy = being with men (and women) whose sole interest in you is to have sex with you, and taking drugs from them, going back to one of said men's house with him and his anonymous friend to give one another head. Making out in gross, taboo places with multiple people and enjoying it (same people, same drugs). Repeating this behavior. Just to clarify. Ugh.
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reader, Kama +, writes (2 June 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionI'm still completely bogged down with work responsibilities, but really want to get back to this, if even in a short way. This evening, I am free to actually respond in full, and I am looking forward to it. These are going to be quick responses - don't take them overly seriously - I don't have time to proofreadMiamine, Power has everything to do with it. My wife reads this column with me, we have been so Fing busy with work we have no time to really talk about it - but she read this and said that your read about it being safe and forbidden and making her feel powerful is right on the mark. She claims to me that the forbidden part did not not add to her enjoyment of the act, it was just meaningless friction to her. I have trouble believing that, as the entire scene she was a part of at the time had everything to do with forbidden things - drugs, she made out with a girl for the first time, made out with a girl and a guy for the first time (in a very gross location that I don't want to disclose) and then did this thing. Hence, I don't completely believe her when she says she wasn't enjoying the whole debauched thing. There was a clear pattern developing. But maybe I need to let go of that. Miamine, your response did help to answer my question because you seem to understand the whole power thing that I have no clue about, and that she affirms. That does help me understand some part of her that was trying to fill a void. . . (I think?)Starmonster888 – you're words are very insightful into my mind. I understand that understanding is not acceptance, and that it is the latter I am trying to develop here. You’ve helped me out there, and I am geniunely appreciateive. I also think that my wife should be developing a way to accept that I am hurt and creeped out by what she did -- I see it as a double understanding (that could possibly lead to acceptance) that should be happening. It sort of is, but she gets angry with me, and then I with her. It can end up being quite awful for both of us.Anon, Absolutely correct, 100%. My wife says that during the actual physical act she had to remove herself from the trashy scene in order to enjoy it. I am haunted by the fact that she was capable of doing that – to completely suspend disbelief in order to have an orgasm with a man nearly twice her age that is treating her like a whore. When I think about this, it cuts my heart in half. In half. Gabrielle, I would like to understand the mental process. I know your situations are not the one I am hung up on, but if there is a way you can generlize a response from your experiences that address the question in my original post up there with the asterisks, I’d love to read it. I would keep in mind that what my wife tells me is the truth (i hope) but perhaps what you say could give her something to point out to me that she didn’t feel etc – As far as how she feels about my hang up: at first (and we are talking about a very significant time frame here, not a few months) she was angry, hurt, confused only. Then she was a bit understanding, but it would always end with anger. Now she is much more understanding, we are able to talk for a while without anger, and then it returns. She is tired of me thinking about it, and I am tired of thinking about it alone. If I could shut if off, I would. I love her, but something is conflicting in my – dare I say, soul . . . (something in which I don’t quite believe in the religious sense) I genuinely feel bad for her, and I know that she doesn’t deserve to put up with me, but I also am angry and dissapointed that after dating for about 1 yr, I pressed and all of this stuff came out. She also lied to me about it at first, because I was so hurt by the story as it began to unravel. That took a LONG time for me to get over, and sometimes I still feel like she is being untruthful to “protect” me. This could destroy us, or we might be able to love our way through it. Either way, somethings got to give – I am done sitting alone with my pain, even if it an “unjust” one. From my heart – thank you, everyone – more to come if the ears are still there – K
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reader, Miamine +, writes (2 June 2010):
Granted male anon, the main problem is his perception of his wife and what she HAS been capable off.. it leaves him feeling confused and picturing her in a different light. But we all have many dual personalities, we can be a whore in the bedroom, a chef in the kitchen, a mean hard hearted boss at work, and we can sometimes throw everything out and go wild.
We can also may contracts and commitments due to love and stick to them for life.
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reader, anonymous, writes (1 June 2010): The issue is that his wife is capable of doing this and he is not. That is a difference in their sexual moralities and not a small one.
It has nothing to do with her cheating on him in the present or future. Just because she did it in the past does not mean she will do it in the future. But the point is that SHE WAS CAPABLE OF DOING IT, EVER. The guy is bothered by the idea of being with a partner who is capable of it.
Insecurity has nothing to do with this. You could give the guy a 100% guarantee that his wife would never be unfaithful to him for the rest of his life, and I'll bet he would still be bothered by this past thing. If you don't understand the importance of that detail then you don't understand what is troubling him.
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reader, Kama +, writes (1 June 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionI've got work day from hell right now, but I'm really honored that people are responding - it makes me feel quite honored to have your ears, even if just for a moment. I will respond back to each of you asap. Thank you so much, all of you.
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reader, Gabrielle Stoker +, writes (1 June 2010):
I agree with what Miamine says - a lot of it is about power in that situation. If you really want to try to understand the mental process behind such an act, I suppose I could try to provide a perspective on that in more detail, but only if you want.
You really don't have anything to be jealous of - I don't think that's too difficult to grasp. The problem stems from your knowledge of your wife's past coloring how you view her in the present. It's not always a good thing, but it's your choice. I'd be interested to know your wife's view on this though. Is she dismissive? Angry? Resentful?
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reader, Starmonster888 +, writes (1 June 2010):
You're right, your real test is acceptance. I think you're on the right track now poster. As for whether you should want to understand, well, that's something that's in your nature. This whole thread is allegorical to your situation; you keep asking, hoping for an answer that will suffice. That's a good thing here, it's progress. Only problem is, understanding doesn't always go hand in hand with acceptance. Which one is important(with her im mind too, because now you two are one unit) is up to you.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (1 June 2010):
Can you recreate the experience?.. you can give her the danger and excitement.. but the rest is impossible.. you can't give her the feeling of youth, or the feeling of doing something wrong, or feeling totally immoral and ultra powerfull.. she also can't play power games with you, because power games lack love and she can't turn that off in her marriage with you.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (1 June 2010):
I'm like you.. no good at stranger sex.. I'm also one who thinks that the past is the past.
But I have a friend who suffered like you about his woman's past. He also found it comforting to understand and put things into perspective.
Sex, oral or otherwise with a stranger is something exciting, and meaningless at the same time. More about just the sexual act, and probably the feeling of doing something naughty. You don't care about the person, you just work on sexual desire. Oral sex is less intimate than full intercourse, so you get to do the meaningless sex act, with no love involved, and yet still feel pure and untouched.
The fact the guy was older, makes me feel that this was more about power than anything else. Think of it this way, she's young, old guy wants her, but she can demand no sex, but still statisfy him, without being caught up in sexual desire herself.. "see, I'm so wonderfull, I can make this guy desire me, and he can't touch me at all"... A young girl exploring sex in what she thinks is a safe way, which also makes her feel very powerfull.
That's why the guy was old, that's why it was only oral sex... more to do with power, sexual experimentation, doing something forbidden and dangerous but staying in control and being safe..
So very different from loving and being loved by the man you are married too. In your marriage it's just two people naked, showing their love, and sharing their hearts and bodies.. no games, no danger.. just love and care, and sexual desire and the knowledge that this is the way it will be for life.
Does this help to answer your question?
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reader, Kama +, writes (1 June 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionYouWish,
I don't believe in unconditional love. All love has conditions. I see through your response that you envision me as a self loving puritan. I don't. I can answer yes to all of your questions and still feel relatively fine while admitting my faults as I have on this page.
As far as your ideas that moral codes are entirely relativistic, and that we shouldn't try to impose ours on others; what are you doing to me right now? Whose glasses are you wearing? Do you claim that what you are doing to me right now disappears when two people vow to spend their lives together?
Now I don't wish to marry you, I have my wife and my fantasies. But those things come with problems, vices, sticking points and insecurities. What can I say? I'm not the chill type.
But thank you for your response, no sarcasm. One thing is true - I do have a decision, and I am in the process of making it. It would be awful to leave my wife, but until you've been where I have, worn my glasses (some of my prescription has been inherited you see, genetic you see, it's not all holier than though sexual elitism) you might not understand what this kind of obsession feels like. It's hell. I'm reaching out here.
Your new girlfriend scenario - I don't accept your guarantee. I might respect her glasses, I might even try to help her eyesight become more like mine, to make mine more like hers. Bifocals. I appreciate your words. Thanks. Maybe, in the end, you'll be right.
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reader, YouWish +, writes (1 June 2010):
You've gotta chill out. You need to make a serious choice. You can either love your wife UNCONDITIONALLY, or you can get hung up about a choice she made before she met you. If you let this continue to eat you up, it will erode your relationship with her. Decide what is more valuable to you.
But before you start viewing her as trashy, let me ask you this. Have you ever watched porn? Have you ever gotten yourself off to random fantasies of faceless, unknown women? Have you secretly had fantasies about co-workers, friend's wives? Mothers? I'm trying to tell you that no person is perfect. If she had cheated on you after you two were together, I'd say that you had good cause to be upset.
However, you absolutely cannot judge her morality based on YOUR moral code. That's like telling someone that they have to wear YOUR prescription of eyeglasses. What works for you doesn't work for others, and the fact of the matter is, she did nothing wrong or trashy by having some oral tryst with someone else. Not all of us can be so lucky as to have someone who had absolutely no prior relationship history.
Think of it this way: What if you divorced your wife over this. What if you then started seeing someone else? Would it be fair for this new woman to be eaten alive inside because you had a relationship with your current wife? I guarantee you that if she were to bring that up to you, your feeling about it would be that it's NOT fair.
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reader, Kama +, writes (1 June 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionStarmonster888, "Your respect and affection for her and her integrity is contributing to your dilemma because you can't understand why she abused it"Do you think I should *want* to understand it? That's some insightful sh**. Outside perspective is a good thing; I'll tell you that. I've not thought about it as the integrity that I want her to have (and am protecting in a way, as you say) is, in a lot of the ways, the source of what's going on. It's this stupid game of projection, like idealization in a sense, but it must be possible to still want her to have that integrity without believing that what she has done has somehow made her having it an impossibility. Maybe the substance you're talking about is the coexistence of my acceptance of her F up (and she, before I came along, did think of it as that) and (re)birth of new her new integrity, simultaneously. I'm just letting this thing spin out here, but it seems to make a kind of sense I've not seen before. Maybe the real test for me is to accept her past, and the real test for her to accept my past integrity ideals . . . Rub the two together and what do you get? Maybe fries and Ketchup. That's the second food metaphor in the replies. Funny. Thanks man. To anyone: keep thoughts coming. I'm returning the favors on other posts etc, as much as possible. -K
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reader, Starmonster888 +, writes (1 June 2010):
Oh yeah, in terms of sexual substance, fries are nice, but they much nicer with ketchup. You can have sex with anyone and feel intense physical pleasure, prostitutes proved that. However, if you have an emotional attraction to the person(ketchup), that pleasure is magnified because it was already there. If you love someone emotionally, you want to see them happy-sex is one the means by which you can achieve this. In other words, emotional substance,not only co-exists with, but births sexual substance.
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reader, Starmonster888 +, writes (1 June 2010):
Your respect and affection for her and her integrity is contributing to your dilemma because you can't understand why she abused it, especially when you work hard to defend it. Meanwhile, she's trying to stay by your side whilst you struggle to understand something she views as insignificant. Tolerating (and learning to accept)your spouses "flaws" like this, that is substance. Oh and some can have monkey faced kinky sex with someone they, I admit, bad example.
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reader, Kama +, writes (1 June 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionStarmonster888,
I real appreciate the initial response *and the boiled down version a lot. When you say substance, do you mean emotional or sexual, or both? What's your take? Can you have both at the same time? Is monkey face kinky sex possible with someone you've known for years? My intuition says yes, but your first answer makes me wonder. I'll be back - I'm busy right now, but I'll be back! Thanks all; keep responding please
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reader, Starmonster888 +, writes (31 May 2010):
No, there's nothing to be jealous of. Your relationship with your wife, both generally and sexually, has more substance than the "old gyeser encounter" ever. Lets ignore my previous over thought answer and boil it down to this: the fling was meaningless sex. Merely a past occurance that only holds significance in the present because of you. Your marrige is clearly important to you, and, considering she's still around despite your "obsession", so does your wife.
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reader, Kama +, writes (31 May 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionGabrielle,
Thanks so much. I know she doesn't want to repeat it; I trust that. For a smart man, that might be enough, but I am irrationally compelled to understand it, like (absorb?) it in a mental capacity, and answers like yours (and hers, of course) help a little. It's embarrassing of course, but I have been quite tortured by this for a long while. I am insanely attracted to my wife sexually, and that traditional, possessive, patriarchal male in me wants to sort of be the most daring, interesting, taboo, satisfying thing for her. This weird fling with this super shady older geyser threatens me in this way; there have been a few times (even very recently) where it has nearly caused us to divorce; as I have said - I am ashamed, but I am that insecure/traditional/controlling whatever you want to label it as; it threatens, it hurts, it makes me see her as something much less desirable, as stupid (rationally) as that is. It makes me see her as trashy, and eclipses the "wholesome," loving, careful, smart parts of her sexual being. Now I know that wholesome, careful, loving people can make mistakes, and that's what I'm trying to deal with. So, to return to my original question (and if I still have anyone's ear) is there something to be jealous of in her anonymous experience (which I have not had)? Is there a difference in terms of experience, satisfaction in the moment, freedom, mental masturbation etc, when one hooks up with a stranger? Should I care? Thanks five thousand millions of thanks.
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reader, Starmonster888 +, writes (31 May 2010):
Here's my theory:
There are a lot more politics involved with sex when it includes a known individual rather than a stranger. Subconsciously (and I really mean subconsciously because no one thinks straight whilst they hump) people consider their relationship with the person the having sex with and, as a result, it affects their fuck-tactics( you try wording it better). For example, you might want to try something real kinky, but because you fear, or respect, how the other person might react and act towards you after the fact (that rhymes), you decide against it.
It could also be because of presentation; some people make funny faces when they're REALLY enjoying sex. The chance of showing this ridiculous expression to their loved one might hinder them from taking as much from the sexual experience as they can, because who the hell wants to pull a monkey face whilst having sex with his girlfriend?
It could be a variety of things from insecurities to practice( failing a really complicated sexual position is much less embarrassing with a stranger)
With the stranger, it's open season. The whole relationship when you're having a fling, is based on the fact that you're having a fling. It's just sex, and you're throwing peace signs when the morning comes anyway, so there isn't any worry about what happens later.
Now, I realize that oral isn't the kinkiest thing ever, but that isn't the point. It's fact that you can do whatever and have nothing to worry about...the freedom and excitement.
One night stands are also really cool stories to tell sometimes.
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reader, Gabrielle Stoker +, writes (31 May 2010):
Interesting question - I guess I can give you a 1st person perspective on this. I indulge in that sort of thing regularly myself and can tell you this - anonymous flings are precisely that: flings. It's the anonymity that makes them attractive - sex without consequences. The guy you describe sounds like the perfect target for such a fling - the sort of person she would know would never cross her path again.
Why did she do it? Perhaps only she can answer that, but my guess is that for her it was a one-time thing, something she wanted to do because it was available. I know that in my own case the only thing I look for from these 'encounters' is to satisfy my desire. After all, I don't have a significant other in my life and at least at present don't think I ever will.
If she's married to you now, I'm sure she has feelings for you that are strong enough to preclude her ever wanting to repeat the act. It's something she's gotten out of the system now that she's done it. If you're secure about it, she will be secure in your love.
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reader, Kama +, writes (31 May 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionI would still love to hear other responses too!
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reader, Kama +, writes (31 May 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThank you anonymous. I think I've just spent so much time feeling like a failure when it comes to this that I have sort of adopted the role. In a world where nearly everyone just resorts to some tired cliche (let sleeping dogs lie, the past is the past, leave it there etc) I get little validation for feeling confused and hurt. Thanks.
YouWish - I also thank you. It's heartening to hear someone speak honestly about the one night stand thing. The worst part for me is she literally knew nothing about this man, not even his name. I can't consider the mental space she was in, and so it is very 'other' very scary and creepy and distasteful to me. It changes the way I see her, you know? I'll try to keep the steak metaphor in mind though - Again, thanks.
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reader, YouWish +, writes (31 May 2010):
First of all, she's not with this guy. She's with you, and take it from me: Sex with an anonymous stranger for a one night stand isn't all it's cracked up to be. I guarantee that she gains 50x more pleasure and meaning from being with you who she loves.
Think of is as: Her fling with this stranger was 3-day old moldy hamburger and you are prime filet mignon.
Or think of the guy as a broken down Chevy while you are a Lamborghini.
Trust me, you have no worries about being insecure about it. Yes, it was in her past, and she would never go back to that in a million years. How do I know it? She didn't stay with him.
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reader, anonymous, writes (30 May 2010): I don't think insecure is the word for this.
You are not asking if the other stranger's dick was bigger than yours. You are struggling to cope with your wife's different sexual values. It's not a weakness for you to have strong feelings about it.
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reader, Kama +, writes (30 May 2010):
Kama is verified as being by the original poster of the questionDear Truth,
I suspect that you'll be surprised to find that my wife did not cheat on me; she had this experience about 1 year before we were together. I'm a pretty insecure guy, at least in the psycho-sexual way, and I have had a tough time forgetting this thing that she did once I found out about it. The guy was much older and pretty dodgy/druggy type - the whole thing truly repulses and confuses me very much. Sorry to mislead you with my question - it is very telling that you assumed she cheated (it would make a hell of a lot more sense to have trouble "letting go" of the situation if she had) but alas, I'm afraid I'm just a typical obsessive geyser who has a really hot wife who he thinks about too much! Any thing to say? Thanks much for responding anyway -
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reader, straight to the truth +, writes (30 May 2010):
the only difference is that if it was someone you knew then you would have been betrayed by a friend and your wife however this way it is only she who has betrayed you.
you are a strong man to put this behind you and you have every right to be insecure.
dont bless her for putting up with your insecurities, this goes with the territory of cheating.
bless you for putting up with her infedility and trying to work through it.
I wish you all the best.
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