A
female
age
41-50,
anonymous
writes: Do men really prefer the bodies of their girlfriends/wives over the model perfect type in most porn. I mean do they really prefer a mommy body with scars and sags (not overweight)as they say, over the scarless pre baby bodies on playboy and hustler??? I know amatuer porn features all types but all the mags in my newssatnd feature the same type of woman ....and she looks nothing like me, a mother of 4....my husband says he prefers my body type but then masturbates over women who have claerly never had even one kid????If its true what men say about prefering the average woman, why do all the porn mags (except fetish type) have scarless sag free women?
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female
reader, Hippiewannabe +, writes (28 October 2014):
Forgive me in advance, because this will be a long response. I completely understand your point of view; I strugg with it myself. But I think what I have to say will be pretty helpful. I'm 47, short, several pounds over my ideal weight, with short hair and a very girl-next-door face - I can wear a ton of makeup and I still look more like the PTA mom than an exotic beauty. But I don't consider myself unattractive - most of the time. My ass is "ample" and my stomach curvaceous. I am not anywhere close to the "ideal."BUT - here's a very cool thing: I recently had a sex-only affair with a man 16 years younger than I. Yes, 16. While I notice and lament my flaws, he considered me drop-dead gorgeous. That is not an exaggeration, and he was very vocal about it. He LOVED my ass, my big beautiful doe eyes (his words), my lips, my smile. Sure, he admired celebrities and such, but he found many things about me to be beautiful and sexy. And I'm sure he is not the only man in the world who thinks that way about a so-called average woman. He even said "imperfections have their own beauty to them." Pretty neat, eh?My current boyfriend photographs gorgeous burlesque performers, looks at porn, and attractive women out and about, and that was very hard for me at first because I felt inadequate. I told him my concerns, and he replied with the qualities I possess that he finds beautiful and sexy, and there were several, such as my incomparable come-hither look (his words.). And, as many men have already stated, he holds me, kisses me, falls asleep and wakes up next to me and LOVES it, and makes beautiful love with me. He chose ME. He loves ME. And THAT is what matters. Hugs to you., and know that loving yourself, with all your glorious imperfections, makes the biggest impact on a man. Have confidence. You alone are good enough. ??
A
female
reader, evaecho +, writes (7 December 2009):
I had a situation which just about damaged my beliefs on this matter, but I was pulled back by realization.
4 years ago, I was married to a man who was the father of my child, and after I had my son, my body was wrecked or so I thought. Instead of having sex with me, my husband looked at porn all the time and would masterbate; nevermind how it made me feel. I would do everything short of pulling out a video camera and suggesting we made a porn to get his attention, and he would tell me he was too tired or he had other things to do. About half an hour later, I would come out and catch him masterbating to porn. Can you imagine how that made me feel? Because of this, he didn't or wouldnt have sex with me for a year, and after much discussion that never resolved anything, I left him.
Now, don't get me wrong, I watch porn too. BUT, I would never turn down sex with my boyfriend to masterbate to porn.
I do have a new boyfriend now that does like to sneak around and watch porn. Sneak? I don't know why...I don't mind it, but it embarrasses him that I actually know about it. It makes me laugh. He does not prefer the porn to sex with me. I always come first in his book, as does he in mine.
Love does have a big part to play in porn vs girlfriend. He may watch porn and look at other seemingly perfect naked chicks while jacking off, but odds are, if I just so happened to walk into the room while this is going on, I garuntee that he would turn off the video, and jump me.
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A
male
reader, brwood +, writes (20 June 2009):
One has nothing to do with the other. Women like to look at flowers and bridal gowns. Men like to look at naked women. Our brains are hard-wired like that and we can't change it. But we can control our actions as a result of that looking. We love and prefer the assets of our "real" women, with all their flaws, because they are _yours_, not because they are flat or fat or this or that. We love your pussy exactly because it is yours, and it is available just to us, not because of some imagined ideal of thickness of lips or color.
We love you because you are you, not because of a comparison with some impossible ideal. The ideal is just a fantasay, like going to a movie, it is enjoyable as long as we know it is just a hollywood creation that doesn't exist in real life. The problem is the 3% of the population who can't tell the difference. Don't sweat it, we are being honest when we say we like you just the way you are.
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A
male
reader, Cowboy +, writes (23 October 2008):
In a word, yes.
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A
female
reader, birdynumnums +, writes (21 October 2008):
Apparently, women in the porn industry are all pretty upset, for obvious reasons, about the advance of HD technology and the fact that there is more and more demand for producing Porn FIlms in HD. SO, like it or not, most porn-loving men will soon be experiencing more razor burn, "enhancement" scars and stretch marks than they ever wanted, if that makes you feel any better...
X-P LOL!
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A
female
reader, eyeswideopen +, writes (20 October 2008):
I'm sure your husband prefers having sex with you vs masturbating to porn. He can't feel the warmth from a magazine page, he can't feel those lovely curves, he can't get the sweet intimacy, he can't....you get the idea. He views porn for a quick release but it's never as great as having sex with you. When a man and a woman truly love each other there's more going on when they make love than just sex. Relax on this porn issue, it's no biggie unless you make it one, really.
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (20 October 2008): "And the people watching it would rather remain oblivious to why the people in it or doing it"
Not always Fade. The other night I actually spent a long time researching the story of some of the most famous Sex actresses in Pornography. Very, very interesting, especially the amount of them who have degrees and master's and therefore are very educated. Like most jobs, there seems to be a variety in the type of people that are attracted to this work. Some women stay in the business for a short time, and some stay in the sex industry and start working behind the camera as directors and producers instead. Many seem to disappear and return to a normal quiet life within a couple of years. I am currently reading the two committee papers done in America over the issue of pornography, but they are both very, very long, however the do contain many eye witness reports. What they seem to suggest is that because of it's nature, it's actually difficult to really find out about the lives of actors and actress because they like to keep their job secret and are protective over their private lives. Again and again, the documents provide warnings that there is very little available research into the lives of sex workers. Yes there is exploitation, but actually it's the men, rather than the women who get exploited the most. Men in pornography are paid, not for their looks but for their ability to ejaculate when they are told. They get paid much, much less, but actually have longer careers... The attraction of pornographic work seems to be the high Financial rewards. The committee reports were very clear, that most girls have a choice over what type of work they do, and whether they do hard core or soft core films. Drug taking is a problem, but it seems to be a problem in Hollywood as well. The study of sex and sexuality has always been very interesting to me, so I am interested in why people want to work in the sex industry and what it means to them and how they feel about it. So I'm one of those people that do more than just watch the films.
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A
female
reader, SirenaBlusera +, writes (19 October 2008):
Qcumber is right, even the supposedly ideal women in porn have their share of imperfections.
I imagine that men love their girlfriends, and they don't even know the women in the porn movies. Maybe the women have bodies that are considered ideal, but you are going to prefer the person that you are in love with, every single time.
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (19 October 2008): DiovanLestat said: “I have yet to hear one man of my acquaintance complain about a lack of sexual desire for their wives, or dissatisfaction with their wives bodies. I do however, hear tons of women complaining that they feel to fat and hate they way they look, even though their men don't seem to mind..”
Exactly, Ms. Anonymous. You really have to learn to read the questions on DC with an open mind, instead of with your agenda coming first and what is really said being warped to fit your agenda. The husbands aren’t saying that they no longer like their wives and compare them to the porn actresses. It is the insecure women who are thinking that with no basis for that feeling. I’m sure that men do occasionally think and say that, but if you would read with an open mind you would see that this is an unusual occurrence.
Ms. Anonymous said: “the men in porn are OFTEN middle age, overweight hairy slobs (sure sometimes there handsome but the point is that their is huge diversity in MAINSTREAM porn representing all men....”
Yes, that is true, but it is also true that there are some far less than attractive women in porn. Actually, I would say that I have seen some ugly ones, just are there are some ugly men in porn. There are also fat women in porn. However, if you look at the men who are having sex with the most beautiful porn women, you will find that they are good looking men, many with bodybuilder bodies. Does that handsome muscular man with an 8 inch penis bother me. NO. Does my wife watching Jenna Jameson bother her. NO. Guess why? It is because we are both satisfied with each other, think that each other are good looking and aren’t worried that we don’t look good enough to be attractive to members of the opposite sex. Hell, my wife is absolutely hot for a 63 year old woman and I let her know it. I can also tell her how hot some 50 year old woman is that we see when shopping without her going into some insecure tirade. She even points out attractive women to me. We both enjoy looking at attractive members of the opposite sex.
Ms. Anonymous, you really have to try to set aside your agenda and be a little open minded about this and all subjects. We all have our preferences for things in life, but most of us are fortunately able to think at least somewhat objectively. You are not one of those. Diovan and I and many others are not closed minded porn lovers. We also hate the man who rejects his partner and only gets it off with porn. We also recognize that porn, along with most everything, can become an addiction. Yes, Ms. Anon, even anti-porn can become an addiction, as you have so vividly demonstrated. DiovanLestat does not think like a man, as you accuse. She thinks like an objective human being.
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A
male
reader, 1trainer1 +, writes (19 October 2008):
pictures are not something we want, we want a real women who will love us and we will love back, if i met a girl that was in a porn magazine and i was single then i would have sex with her and would try to get to know her but as i am happy in my relationship it is jsut fantasy that i look but dont touch, same goes for women im sure but there is no harm in looking...
ps. i prefer amateur porn as i find it more realistic as the women dont be staring at the camera all the time
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (19 October 2008): Sorry, I misunderstood point B...
B) In fashion magazines I have yet to see any ugly people at all. All the men and all the women are perfect. Maybe we should have these magazines banned too. After all, they are supposed to be selling clothes aren't they, why are they full of beautiful people? Pornography is a reflection of the societies in which we live, women's magazines do the same thing, but you don't seem to have a problem with the lack of portrayal of fat ugly men in them.
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (19 October 2008): Hi Ms anonymous,
A)I don't understand why you are watching pornography with unattractive men. What kind of fun is that. Please contact me by private mail and I will give you some links so you can find something more interesting to turn you on.
B) Obviously you do not live in the UK, and so are not used to seeing David Beckham naked with a little towel hiding his balls. If you live in the UK, please check out the comedy series "Little Britian USA", where you will see male nudity done in an offhanded manner.....
C)We live in different worlds my dear. I hear tons of men saying their women have driven them bankcrupt with their constant demands to buy expensive clothes and furniture. I have also met men who complain and stay away from home because they hate the nagging, complaining and bitching they get from women who are dissatisfied with their lives. I have yet to hear one man of my acquaintance complain about a lack of sexual desire for their wives, or dissatisfaction with their wives bodies. I do however, hear tons of women complaining that they feel to fat and hate they way they look, even though their men don't seem to mind..
D) Gender equality.. yes there is a problem, but I perfer to fight for economic and political power, rather than to make noise over sex. Many women that start out as porn actresses, say in the business and become directors, producers and begin to make their own films. A better result for women compared to the low paid, long hours culture that is the alternative that you want to force them into if the sex industry is forbidden and banned. You seek to portray sex workers as "victims". Is it hard to believe that there are many who are highly educated women who choose to enter the career solely for the financial rewards?
E) Do I have children: Nope.... Dose it matter. Are childless people now forbidden a voice in the world. Lady, you may have daughters, but I do have to ask you about the way you treat your sons with such views about men.
We live in different worlds Ms anonymous, and frankly I much prefer mine.
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A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (19 October 2008): diovonlestat most definate;y gives some strange answers....of course men look at porn and dont suffer body image problems like women
a) the men in porn are OFTEN middle age, overweight hairy slobs (sure sometimes there handsome but the point is that their is huge diversity in MAINSTREAM porn representing all men....
B) Im yet to walk into one newstore plastered with semi clad 20yr old men with perfect bodies (yet this is nearly always found in all newstores.
c) Im yet to meet one man whops wife has polluted her mind so much with porn that she becomes disatified with her husbands body (yet I hear woman after woman saying her man is complaining that she doesn't look like a porn star after 5 kids) Diovon, sure you might think like a man, but dont let yourself completely go down the male idiotic path of justifying porn as if their is no gender inequity and women are not treated as pieces of meat.....For Gods sake woman? Do you have daughters
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reader, anonymous, writes (19 October 2008): I know exactly how you feel Fade. I was a fully developed woman at 10years old, and because I read a lot of books and spend a lot of time with adults, I was very mature for my age. Like you, I spent a lot of my childhood fighting off stupid men and boys who tried to act inappropriate with me, but that has never made me dislike men, it has only made me aware that there are bad people in the world. Like you, I get approached by men and boys of all ages, and guys flirt with me all the time. This doesn't bother me, usually when they find out I'm a very serious person who is not impressed with flirting, they learn to talk with me as an equal and we quickly become friends. I have a lot of men friends, and I always have spent a lot of time with men. I like the direct way they approach things, and I have been often told that I have a "man's brain".
You see "pornography" as the problem, but like a lot of men, I would put the blame on "women's magazines". It's not only pornography that encourages women to be skinny, and beautiful, as far as I know, women's magazines do this as well.. At least pornography is fantasy, people that enjoy it, know this very well. Women's magazines encourage women to aspire to look like unrealistic women, who have been computerized and air brushed. "Buy the latest handbag, shoes, dress, starve yourself and you too can find the perfect guy" Little girls don't read pornography, but they do read women's magazines, and they easily are led to believe that all women are skinny, rich and beautiful have the perfect life. I find women's magazines more offensive and dangerous than pornography, they should be banned from little children, because they create unrealistic expectations and cause women to suffer body issues and encourage them to become displeased with the way they look. There is no direct correlation between porn and the issues you talk about. Women's magazines and the modern porn industry developed at the same time. You see porn as the problem, I blame fashion. I do notice that many men look at pornography but do not suffer from insecurity about their bodies like women do. Maybe if women gave up their fashion magazines and started looking at pornography and erotica, they could be as confident in their body and their sex appeal like a lot of men are.....
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reader, anonymous, writes (18 October 2008): Another point is that a lot of men, including myself, actually prefer porn that shows more average women. I like amateur porn and porn using middle aged women who look a lot more like the women who I see or my wife.
"diovon, OP (Original Poster) here, you ask me why I should be worried about young women when Im in my 30s...I agree...but I ask you why should my husband, when he is in his 40s???? no one ever asks men that question...and women are supposed to shut up and accept it"
What are you trying to say? I asked my wife and she couldn’t figure it out either. Are you asking why should any man or woman be worried about someone who looks better than they do? The answer is they shouldn’t. Just what question is it that no one ever asks men? Is it why they look at younger women? What are women supposed to shut up and accept that men aren’t? Looking at younger or more attractive members of the opposite sex? If that is what you are trying to say, then it is only fair for both partners to do the same thing. My wife and I watch a couple of TV shows where we both find one of the actors and actresses attractive to us. We joke that “You can boink her if I can boink him.” Would we do it if we had the chance? Maybe, but it will never happen so it is just a fantasy.
“but a woman should always be the prettiest girl in the world, at least to her partner or husband.I see where she is coming from who wants to be considered second best to porn stars”
Why should a woman expect her partner to think she is the prettiest woman in the world or why should a man expect his partner to think that he is the most handsome man in the world? Live in the real world. If a person can’t accept that they are not the prettiest or most handsome or the best lover or whatever then they are the one who needs help and not the partner who knows that there are better looking people out there. So many people expect their partner to accept their imperfections. That is reasonable, but it is not realistic for them to pretend that they are the best that exist. However, it is even more important for a person to recognize that they are not the best that there is and be happy whit who they are.
I once dated a better looking woman than my wife was. She dated a couple of guys who were better looking than me. We actually never thought about that until we were discussing what I was saying in this answer. It was never important and still isn’t. She had one boyfriend who had a large penis, mush bigger than me. Of course, he refused to ever give her oral and she has her best orgasms with oral. I have given her the best orgasms she has ever had and her for me. We could both be bothered by his bigger penis or the big boobs one woman had who I had sex with, but neither of those lovers were as good as we are for each other. Hey, some men look at some woman with big boobs and wish they could fondle them and some women look at a porn star with a big penis and wish that she could have sex with him to see what it is like. Big deal, as neither of them would actually want to trade their loving partner, assuming that they have a good and loving relationship, for one of those stars.
Perhaps that is the key – the relationship. I wonder if the men and women who are insecure and bothered by things like this are so because their relationship isn’t very good. Perhaps a couple who don’t show much love toward each other are what results in the other having problems with their partner looking at a good looking member of the opposite sex.
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male
reader, eddie +, writes (18 October 2008):
Lots of women buy make up. Have you ever seen a make up company put out and advertising campaign of people who look terrible? It's all smoke and mirrors. People do like perfection. We all need to understand though that somewhere in the middle is reality. People who produce porn, more often than not, want to put their best foot forward as it pertains to looks. They know they will get the majority of the customers the majority of the time, based on pretty people.
It seems you may be stuck on a particular point. I think that point is this....If there is porn available that represents the average, imperfect mother/housewife, why would your husband look at porn that shows "perfection"? And if he views porn that does not represent you in particular, does that mean he finds you undesirable?
Have you written about this before? Do you have any issues with insecurity about your physical appearance? I'm sure you are attractive to your husband. You should try to believe that too. I think it is also important to understand that as spouses, we are not the only people our partners will look at. That does not diminish our value or status. It is just a fact of life.
You seem to focus on the physical nature of the women in the porn. What if they were doing sex acts you refused to do? Would you feel inferior to them? Would it bother you that your husband like those acts? Is there another issue? How much masturbation is your husband doing to porn? Maybe you feel left out. Is he obsessing over a certain type of thing? Maybe there is more to what is bothering you. How do you know so much about his masturbation habits? One thing to remember, as we get older we become less perfect, if you view perfection to be what Hollywood tells us it is. We become more perfect in the areas that are real and important. I'm talking about what is valuable in life. Make yourself a priority. Find happiness within yourself. If your husband has issues, talk to him.
I know that as my marriage matures, I see the big picture. My wife has scars from child birth, some varicose veins, some muscles loosening, some age marks etc, I love her now more that ever. I also find a 25 year old woman to be really attractive BUT I also don't imagine she is nearly as complete a package as my wife. Looks are only skin deep and that is good as my wife is a much better looking 45 year old than I am. I can only hope she sees me in the big picture. If she sees a really handsome 30 year old guy should I worry? No, because even though I'm not as handsome, I have history and a future with my wife. I need to understand that she values me based on what we've created over time.
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reader, anonymous, writes (18 October 2008): I have to agree with Steve 27. It would be nice to have a one night stand with one or many of those perfect women, but I don't think that any of them could compare with my wife or most wives when it comes to living my life with them. There is a lot more to a lifetime relationship than looking at or having sex with that almost perfect Playboy centerfold.
I'd bet that if most men could trade their wives in for one of those women that they would want their wives back after they tire of the looks and the sex. I'd even bet that the quality of the sex wouldn't be as good as it is with their wives. It would be exciting for a while and then he would miss what his loving partner gives him in bed and for all other things in their lives.
Many or most men and women fantisize or wonder what it would be like to be with their favorite movie star or some hot public figure, but look ot the lives of a lot of these people. Cheating, multiple divorces, leaving at the first sign of a problem, etc. Yeah, a one night stand would be exciting, but not to spend my life or even a significant part of it with someone like that. I'll take my imperfect, but loving and faithful wife any day.
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (18 October 2008): diovon, OP (Original Poster) here, you ask me why I should be worried about young women when Im in my 30s...I agree...but I ask you why should my husband, when he is in his 40s???? no one ever asks men that question...and women are supposed to shut up and accept it
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (18 October 2008): but a woman should always be the prettiest girl in the world, at least to her partner or husband.I see where she is coming from who wants to be considered second best to porn stars
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reader, anonymous, writes (18 October 2008): Babes, just seen your response.... Why do you think that a 20year old stud would want you. It dose work the other way you know. Be realistic. Your jealous because men fantasize about pretty girls, and instead settle for real ladies. You present as aged 30-35, don't you think your a bit to old, to get worried about little girls. He didn't settle, he lives in the real world and knows that a 20year old wouldn't suit him as a partner in real life. I wish you luck with your search for the perfect 20year old stud....
PS: You'll find the perfect 20year old stud, likes looking at pretty 20year olds as well, and then where will you be. Grow up please and face reality... You are not the most prettiest woman in the world, and neither am I. But your partner is also average and normal, and he is content with himself and you. Why do you want to leave him and live alone.
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male
reader, Sandman +, writes (18 October 2008):
I guess I'll jump in on this one.
I wouldn't necessarily say men prefer these women, but these "perfect" bodies are just something to look at. Another thing for you to remember is MOST of the women in porn are fake: fake breasts, fake eyelashes, botox faces, liposuction tummies, etc. Is that the perfect body? Not to me. I don't like fake. I don't like things that aren't real. So while it's pretty to look at, probably nice to masturbate to, it's not something I "want" in my life.
Which is why I prefer my everyday woman. The woman of which you speak. The woman who knows a thing or two about a thing or two. Can speak to everyday life stresses, anxieties, successes, failures, etc. Not the woman who is faking her way through. Beauty (to me) is natural. I don't really like makeup on my women. I want to see all the natural blemishes, scars, nicks and cuts that make her beautiful to me. If my woman wants to wear makeup, that's fine - but my "preference" is for her not too.
Does it enhance her looks to put on makeup? Sure. Because it hides all the things that people think are "ugly". But when my wife (now ex-wife) would go out she would put on makeup and stuff because that's what she wanted to do. But when we got home, all charged up from the evening, ready to make love - the makeup came off first. I don't want that stuff on her when I'm on her. It's not real. It's not the real her.
So there's my $0.02. I think you have NOTHING to worry about. Like it was said before, if your husband still gets aroused by seeing you naked, you are still good. Sags, cuts, scars and all. You are still beautiful to your husband. You still get his engine going. You still light his fire. It's you, not them, that he make's love to, cuddles up to, and kisses goodnight.
Hope this helps.
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male
reader, anthonynj +, writes (18 October 2008):
+1 ! Totally agree with u guys Yeah,in the back of their minds,every men like those 'perfect' girls but they know its not 'real' !And they r perfectly happy with their not so 'perfect' but 'real' partners,i feel !
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (18 October 2008): Hi OP here. first can I just say I dont swoon over decaprio or any other star...from what both the guys who have answered say Im right in feeling he settled for me because the chances of him gettinmg a porn star are next to nil....
I thank you for your honesty...I really feel a single, independent life where Im not being 'settled for' is far preferable to one where he'd prefer a 20yr old porn star...and from what your saying most men would feel the same way...so better to be alone with a toy boy lol
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male
reader, LazyGuy +, writes (18 October 2008):
The truth? Of course we want a super model over some middle aged woman not so much going down hill as in free fall but that is not the right thing to say. It upsets the mother of your kids and it is not like super-models are there for all of us.
Most men, and most women just make due with what they got and learn to be happy with it.
You complain about female models, because of course the men displayed in the media are SO much more realistic. And we are not just talking looks here. They got jobs that don't seem to require more then 1 hour a week with weaklings bosses that make no demands, have apartments larger then the building they are in, perfect styling, make-up etc etc.
Does that mean all women secretly wish for that kind of guy? Well maybe they do, but most have learned to be content with a realistic guy. Look at your own husband, does he look like the guys in Cosmo or whatever your version of playboy for women happens to be called?
Porn is just part of the media and the media sells a dream. That dream can be anything you want it but most people know it is a dream and keep reality and fantasy seperate.
If I look at an add for a ferrari, does that mean I am dissatisfied with my own car? Or even want a ferrari for real?
Your husband looks at porn and fantasises about a certain look but that is different from being with a woman for real. I wouldn't say he prefers your body over the model but you are the one he is with. Don't go looking for trouble, unless you are willing to explain why you swoon over decaprio in titanic. That ain't real either.
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (18 October 2008): Your husband prefers you because he loves you. The porn stars are not 'real' so it is easy to fantasise. Do you fantasise over men with gorgeous bodies? I have to ignore these perfect images because they are not attainable in 'real' life only with the help of computer editing techniques - which is why they are in magazines. I think you need to work on your marriage in terms of bringing your own fantasy into it - and his. If his actions hurt you then you need to talk to him.
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male
reader, anonymous, writes (18 October 2008): Well I guess no not really to be honest. I mean I love my girlfriend but let's be honest we fantasize over these women because they are gorgeous and hotter than anything we could find in real life. that's why it's a fantasy- if we wanted 'real' women we'd fantasize about them, but we have them so why do we want to fantasize about them? The whole point of these women is that they aren't 'real'- they are better than 'reality', they are enhanced, they have something extra that makes them worth fantasizing about.
That said I would never trade my girlfriend in for a porn mag girl because she has more to offer than just boobs and flat abs and a nice rear end...but I probably wouldnt turn the porn mag girl down for a quickie either.
-Steve 27
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