A
female
age
30-35,
*uriouserAndCuriouser
writes:A friend introduced me to the term "Narcissistic Personality Disorder" and boy did it open my eyes. My father has been an INTENSE narcissistic, an especially sly one, ever since I can remember.. and until recently I thought he just had issues and was 'improving', until my birthday arrived this month when I realized he is truly the same, just trying different methods of manipulation on me as I get older and start to withdraw my "fuel" for his narcissistic fire. I am angry when I think of how much time I wasted trying to 'fix' him, and how he was never a father, never even a friend to me. I grew up without self esteem, my world revolved around making him happy (so I could avoid abuse and punishment, or being outright ridiculed like my brother was). Even after my parents divorce, I felt responsible for his happiness. He brainwashed me when I was vulnerable and cannot even recognize the impact he has had on me (I have tried.. to talk to him about it, to write to him about it..)I thought that by doing that, and with all these instances in his life of things going WRONG and everybody else sharing the same opinion (which was not HIS), that he might clue in at some point and want to modify his personality if he could. That at some point, something would give and he would say "This just isn't working. I'm living a fantasy life." But the narcissism was too much, I guess.I have been very fortunate lately to have a wonderful father substitute come into my life (past year or more) and he has been helping me in the past few months, because I have asked, to work out some old withstanding issues. He is a middle aged man with a family of his own and we care about each other in a very genuine but very platonic fashion - so no worries.But now that I have this HEALTHY male influence that I have really been searching for my entire life, I realize that when I have been missing him, really I have been feeling incomplete without the exposure to the manipulation. My life ran more smooth when I could make his life more smooth. I am trying to regain my independance and sense of self worth before I leave for university next fall.SO, what I wanted to ask you agony aunts is this - what kind of relationship do you believe I should or could have with him? He is 50 now, the narcissism has not improved with age, if anything it has become more ingrained. He uses people relentlessly, and my family members and I have tried on numerous occasions to try and get him to realize his True Self and to see that he is destroying his own relationships, his own career by using and disposing people, by the same mistakes he is making... I cut off communication with him completely for a few months because I was just tired of it. Now that I have breathing space.. I'm not so sure I want to go back. I know I can set up healthy boundaries.. but what ARE those healthy boundaries when your father is a narcissist through and through and has been abusive in every fashion except sexual to you since you were a small child? Over the years he has made me feel sorry for him, so I feel guilty for 'abandoning' him.. yet the more I read, I realize it was all probably part of his master plan to cultivate me as his own supply of adoration and emotional comfort.I am trying to get my life back on track, trying to reestablish my trust in men. The father-substitute is really helping but what else can I do to help myself?Any and all input is welcome.
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male
reader, Markingbad  +, writes (25 October 2009):
 Your dad may have all those faults but you have turned out to be a very bright and considerate young woman. So somebody must have done something right.
And if i were him and i read you were looking for a substitute father i would be heartbroken.
A
female
reader, CuriouserAndCuriouser +, writes (23 October 2009):
CuriouserAndCuriouser is verified as being by the original poster of the question I do; so I keep an open mind!
If he does not have the disorder (which I think he actually may), then he must just match an AWFUL lot of the criteria.
Either way, no one else knows his behaviour better than I do.. and after educating myself and seeking the opinions of a few other professionals (who seem to agree), I feel much more sure.
I am not someone eager to slap a label on an individual, and I realize we are all multifaceted beings. But I am persistent and careful when trying to discern.
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reader, anonymous, writes (23 October 2009): You do realise that your not qualified to make a diagnosis.
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female
reader, CuriouserAndCuriouser +, writes (23 October 2009):
CuriouserAndCuriouser is verified as being by the original poster of the questionAhh that made me feel so great, Candleman! Thank you for taking the time to write back.Going down that list, I feel very reassured that I made the right decision. I don't think it could have been a better fit..1. Obviously sexual perversion is a biggie to look out for. I would be very, very cautious of this. -- Don't feel the tension at all with him. It's very "Hey dad!" :)2. Someone that is stable in their life. -- Married, kids, not looking to move, stays in good shape event though he is older and has diabetes ( :( ). Very wise, very caring, genuinely interesting in teaching youth, loves his job.3. Someone that can be vouched for through other people (I would research them and maybe even consider doing a police background check.) -- How do I go about doing that? :S I don't think I can? I really don't feel the need to at all. He freely tells me about different stages in his life, what he was like, what lessons he learned. I never feel threatened when he's around - which is a big step for me! I usually always do with males in some way.4. No one that has a terminal illness in their life. You're gonna want this person to be around for a while. -- He wants to stick around as long as possible, and is very optimistic about his health, even though he's had some problems in the past year.. including shingles and pneumonia. I actually worry about his health sometimes, but he takes really good care of himself.5. Ideologically similar, specifically religion. I would stay away from fanatics whose primary goal would be your conversion. If you have a strong religious belief, then someone that shares your religion (this is ideal but not necessary.) -- He taught me religion and philosophy; two of my favourite subjects! We just never run out of things to talk about.. and he is great about sharing his ideas without imposing, and he is very welcoming of mine (though I am still sorting mine out!)6. Someone that is dependable. -- Has never turned away a chat except for the one this week: I could tell he was having a really bad day (doesnt have those often) and he asked me how I was doing first before he /asked/ if we could talk another day. So that was really nice. He told me never to feel bad about coming to him to talk about things, and because I sometimes do, he asks me if I'd like to talk when we haven't in a while!7. If married what is the wife going to be like. That is important. You could end up establishing a relationship w/ someone and then the wife gets jealous. -- I've met her a few times and she is very quiet, pretty practical but generally a really lovely person. Very softspoken. She is also a teacher and we have talked a little bit here and there and she is just very easygoing, though a little conventional. Her husband is more unorthodox.8. Their children. I would want to talk to their children in order to make sure they would be OK w/ it just as a safety precaution. It could be the father would know this. -- One is in his late twenties I think.. he is adopted. The younger one just entered highschool, and I help out as a "retreat leader" for the younger grades so I was lucky enough to have him in my group and get to know him. He's a great kid. A little opinionated, but always in search of the good. :)9. Someone that has enough time for you. Good intentions are not what you need. -- He always makes time. Goes out of his way to make time, actually. Not just for me, though - he helps students after school because he has to stay for an hour or two everyday anyway.10. Someone w/ some degree of general interest as yourself so that your personalities can click or at least an open minded person who is not too judgmental. You don't want someone picking at you all the time. -- We are right into the same stuff. He even has a similar background as me.. with themes of narcissism, alcoholism, abuse, avoidance, depression.. So we really connect on so many different levels. Whether we're talking about happy things or unhappy things, the quality and sincerity of the connection never changes.Does that sound good? I really have great vibes about him. I don't know if you believe that at times in our life, people cross paths who have much to give to and take from each other.. but I do. And I get that deep gut feeling about it, and it is very comforting. :)We even have the same lame, dry sense of humour! HahaThis is really what I've been wanting for so many years..And I had a birthday not too long ago and received a gift card for Chapters; so I may just go pick up that book! Thank you for the recommendation!
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A
male
reader, Candleman  +, writes (22 October 2009):
 Howdy, I'm glad you don't fit the definition. Just remember that you don't have to fit all criteria of a label in order to benefit from the insight provided. It is always good for people to analyze themselves and see where they have problems. You said there are a few things that hit home, and those are important then to look at and understand. Anything that deals w/ children of narcissistic parents could hold insight to you in some way or another. You are obviously working your way towards bettering your person as a whole. You are very bright and tackling your problems head on. As far as a father figure. Since you hit the nail on the head w/ being careful who you choose, once you find this person, then research indicates that it is highly beneficial for people to have a father figure in their life. So what would it be to look for in the father figure....I'm going brain storm here so some of these ideas might not be good. 1. Obviously sexual perversion is a biggie to look out for. I would be very, very cautious of this. 2. Someone that is stable in their life. 3. Someone that can be vouched for through other people (I would research them and maybe even consider doing a police background check.) 4. No one that has a terminal illness in their life. You're gonna want this person to be around for a while. 5. Ideologically similar, specifically religion. I would stay away from fanatics whose primary goal would be your conversion. If you have a strong religious belief, then someone that shares your religion (this is ideal but not necessary.) 6. Someone that is dependable. 7. If married what is the wife going to be like. That is important. You could end up establishing a relationship w/ someone and then the wife gets jealous. 8. Their children. I would want to talk to their children in order to make sure they would be OK w/ it just as a safety precaution. It could be the father would know this. 9. Someone that has enough time for you. Good intentions are not what you need. 10. Someone w/ some degree of general interest as yourself so that your personalities can click or at least an open minded person who is not too judgmental. You don't want someone picking at you all the time.Well, I'm sure there are more things that are important too. Last thing I'll share today is called Abraham Maslow's Hierarchy of Human Needs. Its a good guide to set your life's goals. http://www.dearcupid.org/question/what-are-healthy-boundaries-when-dealing-with-a.html Keep up the positive focus, you're doing great. You're living the expression 'When life hands you lemons, you make lemonade.'HAGD
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reader, CuriouserAndCuriouser +, writes (22 October 2009):
CuriouserAndCuriouser is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThank you, everyone, for all your help.. I am struggling with this because I for many years I thought I wanted to be 'close' to him.. Now, I realize, I'd like as much space as possible. I just feel really bad about that; like it makes me a bad person. And of course that's not true, like you have all said - I need to focus my energy on my life, set goals for myself.
Candleman, I had a look at that article and it was really interesting; thank you so sharing it! While I think I match some of those things, and used to match must more. I was bullied a lot in school because I didn't know how to relate very well; and during this time in my younger years I matched the description better.. But I promise you I am truly not like that. I am very able to empathize, and I am grateful for that.. its what sets me apart from my dad. I look at how lonely he is, and its all been his doing.. Lol, and I don't want to sound vain (especially because we are talking about narcissists!) but connecting with people, seeing the world from out of their shoes, is something I am really good at.
So I genuinely don't believe I am a co-narcissist. I went into depression for a few years, a few years ago and it really changed me - I came out of it a much better person than I have ever been, and I only have healthy narcissist tendencies.
I also wanted to ask you guys what your thoughts were on girls finding father-substitutes, either one or a few, throughout her lifetime. I have found one in an old teacher of mine.. and while its a little unorthodox because I am still attending the school for a semester, he has been really great to me and he is not 'on the prowl' - he was a social worker for many years. He is also in his fifties. It doesnt feel weird at all for either of us but I didn't know what the Agony Aunts would think - you're opinions mean a lot! I am already benefiting from the kind of relationship we have; do you think its alright? I really just want a dad and I am careful in looking for another one - this one I know I can trust.
Thanks again, you guys.
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A
male
reader, Candleman +, writes (22 October 2009):
Hi,
I am linking you an article by a psychologist who actually coined a term co-narcissist, similar to the notion of co-dependent.
I am seeing the patterns of what you are describing being told in this article so I believe you will find it helpful.
Sadly a narcissist is not a good candidate for therapy as they will usually leave the sessions prior to gaining anything from it. You can obviously try to get your dad to see a therapist, but you have to assume that he is going to be this way for the rest of your life.
Therefore, the most important thing that you can do is improve YOUR life. It's time to focus your energy on yourself not on others.
You need to analyze yourself and see how your father has shaped the person that you are. When you identify the problems, you then need to develop a plan to improve these facets of yourself. (Obviously there are other things that you may want to work on that are not directly related to him, but what I am focusing on things that he has effected.)
When you find that contact with your father is impeding this development, then you need to limit contact with him until you are strong enough to handle him. This could take 1 year, 10 years..who knows. The most important thing is to focus on developing a stronger, more stable and ultimately happier you.
You say that your parents are divorced and I get the feel you live w/ your mom? I can't see any other way of cutting off contact w/ him for a month. If this is the case, then limit the time you spend w/ him. Tell him why you need to do so. (If you live w/ him there's another thought process that would have to be considered.)
Say “Look dad, I love you, but you are a narcissist. Look it up, it is you. I am only distancing myself from you in order to get my life in order.” Then list all the things that has shaped your personality in a negative fashion and tell him that until you can change these aspects of yourself, you will have to cut off or limit contact with him.
It's important to tell him that you love him (assuming you do of course.) Don't cave in to his manipulations that impede your growth, this is your first step and most important step in the beginning. Perhaps a strong stance on your behalf will make him see his problem. You can't expect this. Your ideal is when you are ready to go back into his life more, then the bridge isn't burned.
Understand that your father is sick. His condition has reasons that he is probably unaware of. This will help you better deal w/ him in the future. Instead of caving in to his desires or being negatively effected, you can have pity for him and resolve in your commitment to better yourself and be less effected by him.
The fact that he is sick should help you understand that not all people are like this. Your new older friend you wrote about is living proof. This is the majority of people.
Ideally you should see a therapist. There is a lot about you that you probably are unaware of that is a direct result of growing up in this dynamic. Again, this is what you want to analyze about yourself. You can't plan a change for something you don't know exist.
At the least, you can see a school psychologist and once you get to university, you will have an entire department you can go to. Don't try to do this on your own. Read books, search websites. I can tell you are already on this path. Keep it up.
http://www.alanrappoport.com/Co-Narcissism%20Article.pdf
Best Wishes
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female
reader, HereAreMyTwoCents +, writes (22 October 2009):
 Healthy boundaries in a case like this are... whatever boundaries you need to keep in order to maintain your own mental health, and not get caught up in his manipulations. From how you have described him, it does not look like he will ever recognize himself for what he really is, and I think that the more you would try to show him the more it wouldn't work. He is 50, he is probably not going to change his ways. I suggest keeping as much distance from him as you need in order to stay sane. You are not responsible for showing him his true colors, moving mountains for him, or in any way wasting anymore of your precious energy on this negative personality. You need to think of yourself first, and him second.
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