A
female
age
41-50,
anonymous
writes:My boyfriend and I have been together for a few years and we are getting married soon. At the beginning, he was really sweet, caring and understanding. The kind of guy that I have always wished for. However, one day, I told him that I had an one night stand before I met him and everything changed. He became very demanding and hard to please. He felt that I was attracted instantly to someone else but he had to work hard to get me. He would mention it over and over again whenever we had arguments. He felt that I need to show him gratitude for wanting me and always be apologetic about what I had done before. After a long time, we have finally came to peace with it and didn't talk much about it. However along the way, I have gave in to him a lot, going to his place very often, spending almost all my free time with him, only doing things that he like, saying sorry for everything even if it is not really my fault. Now I feel like he is taking me for granted and is never satisfied with me. He would even blame me for not motivating him, for not being with him on a rest day and even said that I have never given him any support. On the other hand, he doesn't put in effort to make me happy anymore. All the small surprises are gone and I am always the one looking for him. I really feel so tired of pleasing him and never getting any reward or appreciation. Should I still go on? Does he still love me? Do I really deserved such treatment?
View related questions:
one night stand Reply to this Question
Share |
Fancy yourself as an agony aunt? Add your answer to this question! A
female
reader, person12345  +, writes (10 January 2013):
 Serpico, you think RJ is an innate evolutionary trait (despite all evidence to the contrary) but that addiction, which is almost unanimously agreed on by biologists to be genetic and is so chemically ingrained that people die from withdrawal is because those people are just weak?
A
female
reader, janniepeg  +, writes (9 January 2013):
 It depends on where you are. In Mali, a 15 year old girl got 60 whips for talking to an adult male on the street. In a country that's 100% Muslim, I would say 100% of men have RJ.
On the other extreme, in the islands of Polynesia, polygamy is the norm. The women get permission from the husband to have sex with other men and the husbands would gladly raise kids not their own. They have a strong sense of community. Sex is a creative energy to be celebrated.
In the USA, there are probably fewer men with RJ in cities like San Francisco and Boston, than a city like Provo, Utah.
I personally don't care if men with RJ seek help. It's their choice. The nature of supply and demand will determine if males should continue having this trait.
...............................
A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (8 January 2013): RJ cannot be evolutionary? Except that men with RJ problems are just as likely to have kids as anyone else on Dearcupid. Traits don't have to be fun and popular just to get passed on. It's no secret that female promiscuity has never been very popular to men when they go looking for a wife. The reasons for that are obvious. RJ is just a natural outgrowth of that. RJ is very common and normal. So is people cheating on their spouse, but that doesn't mean you have to accept cheating in your life. You don't have to tolerate RJ either but calling it unusual is simply not accurate. RJ is an emotion, like anger or sadness or jealousy. Do we accept blanket statements like "Anger is because of immaturity?" Emotions are so much more complex than that. People seeking help for problems don't deserve such simple and judgmental descriptions. Some RJ is because of immaturity, other RJ is not at all. Some RJ cannot accurately be called jealousy at all. All people are unique individuals who deserve some basic human respect. Even people who are struggling with emotions that aren't popular.
...............................
A
female
reader, eyeswideopen +, writes (7 January 2013):
 I googled RJ and got Retro Jello Mold recipes.
...............................
A
female
reader, So_Very_Confused +, writes (7 January 2013):
 Interestingly enough, I am unable to locate a professional definition of retroactive jealousy.
EVERY site that talks about it is something someone created. There is NO professional commenting on RJ. Yes it’s probably a form of OCD but I can’t find anything professional to substantiate it.
Again, to the anonymous male poster, who feels that RJ is acceptable (by stating that it’s more than a small portion of all men and that it’s VERY common) and that women should therefore live to meet the standards of a few insecure and emotionally immature men, I disagree based on my personal experience that RJ is common. IF you can state it is common based on ONE website or a bunch of PRIVATE websites that post about it to make themselves feel better, I can state that it’s not common and not really a disorder based on my personal experience and my minimal research to locate a professional paper on said topic.
In all my time here at DC, I have rarely seen the majority of posters tell women to lie about their past, rather we tend to tell them to find a man who is not suffering from RJ. It’s really not that hard to do. IF RJ was all that common, wouldn’t it be hard for a woman to find a man without RJ? Nor do we tell men who suffer deeply with RJ to ‘suck it up and deal’. I am aware that even without a formal title or a common level of sufferers, to those that suffer from RJ, it’s as real as my degenerative disc disease. Just like other orphan illnesses, RJ needs treatment. I think that some medications to help the OCD tendencies as well as deep seated therapy to work on the man’s self-esteem and perceptions of the world are critical to healing this dreadful problem.
BUT the man suffering from RJ has to want to heal. And be willing to seek help and part of that is ADMITTING HE HAS A PROBLEM. The issue for MOST RJ sufferers is that they don’t see it as a problem much like the male anonymous poster… they see the problem as society ‘allowing’ women to have sex lives rather than be kept in an ivory tower awaiting the man with RJ to come in and rescue her from a life of abject virginity.
If a man was honest that he had a mental illness he would bring it up early in the dating experience with each new woman. IT would save all of them a lot of grief…
“hi sally, this is our third date and I have to tell you something serious, I have something commonly called ‘retroactive jealousy’. This means that if you have had any sexual experiences (and here the man with RJ will have to state just how bad it is…whether it be kissing and cuddling or oral sex or anal sex or intercourse without a condom or whatever brand of RJ the sufferer has) prior to my falling in love with you, I will not be able to deal with it and I will have to end the relationship. I have tried to seek counseling for this as well as had medical intervension via drugs, (and he should have before he starts dating to meet someone serious) but it’s not working. Therefore, I need you to be honest with me and if you have experienced any of these things, I fear this will be our last date”
It is then incumbent on the woman (who may already be falling for this guy) to be honest and either say “thank you scott for letting me know, let’s have fun tonight and after that we can part ways” . IF she lies, she’s the wrong party.
I am in agreement with the prior poster that if RJ is evolutionary then those men who suffered from it in the past would have died out… since it would have been impossible for them eventually to find women that meet their skewed criteria of what is acceptable.
Again, I’ve been having sex with multiple men and women since 1974. I have never lied about any of my experiences to any of my partners. I have NEVER seen anyone with RJ prior to coming to DC.
...............................
A
female
reader, person12345 +, writes (7 January 2013):
Male anon, again you're still not answering what your solution is. No one is forcing anyone with RJ to stay with someone who has a sexual history, I've heard many posters on here say the men suffering this should break up with their partner. And I've never even once heard someone advise a poster to lie about her sexual history. Really commonly the sadness seems to come from him not being able to stop obsessing even though he is in love with that woman. Neither of those things come from society, they come internally. Most of the problems don't seem to arise by lies, but more that the woman later into the relationship says some small detail that acts as a sort of trigger for these feelings. Like he'll know she had three partners, but then she'll say something about one and just like that, he can't stop obsessing over that detail. If this was something the woman was still actively doing and could stop, it would be one thing, but there's nothing she can do.
Other than trying to help men with this get over their obsessive thoughts, there isn't really anything that can be done. Breaking up with someone already is accepted and it still doesn't help, it just leads to failed relationship after failed relationship and misery.
I personally (though I'm not a psychologist) think RJ sounds a lot like OCD. It involves the same repetitive intrusive thoughts that cannot be "thought away" with logic. OCD is manageable/treatable with a combination of therapy and sometimes drugs and I've heard of men recovering from RJ with this approach. It's much better for someone with a problem like this to deal with their issue internally than to try to change their environment to suit their needs, because the environment will never be changed enough but the mental state can be.
"It's part of human nature (in our genes) that men prefer woman who are younger, more virginal and more attractive as their primary mate. In the same way women (in their genes) prefer men who are more confident, stronger, smarter and funnier. That's just how we are."
Attractive varies so much depending on where you are and what time period you are in, some cultures prefer obese women, some prefer pre-pubescent girls (thankfully the UN is working on that one), some women prefer "submissive" quiet men, etc... There's far more evidence that it isn't than that it is. As globalization happens what is considered attractive is changing very rapidly as well. The only thing that is genetic is that people want to be with an "attractive" person.
...............................
A
male
reader, Serpico +, writes (7 January 2013):
Finally back to this. Seems like I missed a lot - all very exciting. I'll add just a few things.1 - For woman who think this affects "just a small percentage of men," all I can say is you are just plain wrong. What I can say is how many men it affects and how many men TELL you it effects them are two very different populations. It is embarrassing to us, and not something we will share easily because this evolutionary relic is inconsistent with our modern society.2 - Someone below said this is something for us to "evolve out of." To an extent I agree, but remember that our society evolves much faster than our evolution. With buffered evolution, no longer to only the fittest survive, so its even slower now than at any point in our history.3 - Yos, love your stuff, but I would stop short of calling RJ a "disease," anymore than I would call blue eyes or jealousy itself a "disease." 5000 years ago, it was something that helped us survive. Just because society has changed around it does not make it now a "disease."4 - For those (not concidentally, almost exclusively women) who think RJ is not based in science, I challenge you to provide to us a more plausible explanation that evolution. Oh please please say "the media" or something like that. The fact of the matter is, you wont be able to find something else more plausible, and until that day occurs, Im ok with saying its evolution.5 - For the person who stated "even if all women were virgins, RJ would still exist." This is likely true, but in this case RJ would exist, but not bother us. I know this because it is exactly what happened to me. 6 - Last, I think that many women object to the existence of RJ based on two reasons. First, like PMS to men, its simply something you cannot understand because your brains are typically not structured to develop the condition. That is is so foreign, it MUST therefore not be concrete and something therefore attributable to a defect in the man. Second, because it is something that makes promiscuous women much less desirable to a lot of men, many women wish to explain it away through being some fault of the man, rather than of their own. (Although in itself its no "fault" of either really.)In the end, it is real, it is widespread, it primarily affects men, is best explained by evolution, and is not going anywhere soon. Women are generally no more capable of understanding it than men are of understanding PMS, a womans abhorance to porn watching, or pregnancy. Why? Because we have not evolved that way. As inconvenient as that may be for many, both men and women, that's the way it is.
...............................
A
male
reader, Yos  +, writes (6 January 2013):
 It's part of human nature (in our genes) that men prefer woman who are younger, more virginal and more attractive as their primary mate. In the same way women (in their genes) prefer men who are more confident, stronger, smarter and funnier. That's just how we are.
This doesn't mean RJ is genetic. But it means that vulnerability to RJ is genetic. Culture can help this, or work against it, but it can't eliminate it. I don't know if vulnerability to RJ is ubiquitous genetically, but it's certainly common in men.
I see RJ as a mental illness. In the same way depression, low self esteem, or obsessive compulsive disorder are. As with most mental illnesses, it's usually a combination of many factors that trigger it: our own state of mind and mental health, our background and upbringing, the state of our relationship, etcetera.
On a certain level the nature / nurture debate is nonsensical imho. All human behaviour is both: without nature there could be no nurture, yet behaviour is be definition nurture. You can't have one without the other. Better to try to understand behaviour as the interplay between our nature and our nurture.
...............................
A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (6 January 2013): RJ affects way more than a small portion of all men. It is very common and not just in a few examples historically. I think refusing to recognize this is another form of dismissing it. Just look at how often it comes up on Dearcupid alone, can you call that uncommon? What we can do about RJ is to give people realistic advice and treat them FAIRLY. We do not do this right now. Right now we hold it against a person for doing what it takes to avoid RJ. Its not socially acceptable to ask people about their sexual past early in dating. But there is no other way of avoiding RJ, simple as that. If people ask about the past once the relationship is going that means they might want to break up when the truth comes out. But that is not socially acceptable either. If a person end up with RJ then we advise, and expect, them to get over it. This is a great idea but an unrealistic expectation for most people with RJ. It needs to be common knowledge that getting over RJ (not just learning to suffer in silence) is not fair demand to make of someone. We do not really hold it against people who lie and trap another person into a situation where they feel RJ. We give a them a slap on the wrist by saying it was wrong to lie about the past. Then we just turn to the person with RJ and start expecting them to deal with it anyway. We still usually don't accept people with RJ for breaking up when the truth comes out. People usually view the liar like more of the victim than the person trapped into RJ, which is ridiculously unfair to the person with RJ.All this is wrong.
...............................
A
female
reader, person12345 +, writes (6 January 2013):
Male anon, RJ IS something sufferers have to try to get over because it makes them miserable. There is nothing for women to "accept" because there is nothing for us to do. What is the solution then if not to help men "get over it?" The sufferer is the only one miserable and it is up to the sufferer to change because nothing else CAN change. There are already places where women are forced to remain virgin and punished for not doing so, and it results in and is a result of the most horrific violations of human rights imaginable, such as stoning women to death for being raped.
If feelings are an evolutionary impulse that does not make them more legitimate than if they are cultural (feelings are feelings, there aren't "right" or "wrong" ones) and it doesn't make them better or more acceptable. But most importantly it doesn't mean men have the right to control women's sexuality to help their anxiety issues because they think maybe cavemen felt the same way. Cavemen also beat each other to death with sticks and sometimes ate each other. That doesn't mean we can do that today.
The human brain requires IMMENSE amounts of learning to grow into a mature brain. There is almost no behavior that is the same across all cultures and time periods. We have gained control over our most basic bodily needs and functions (we control when and where we pee and poop, we control when we eat and drink, etc...), so to claim that RJ is somehow different because it just is, well it's pretty hard to take seriously. Especially when it is something that is so obviously not a "male trait."
You seem to have this odd idea that RJ is a universal thing among all men when it's actually fairly rare and localized to certain cultures and time periods. I don't doubt it is a terrible thing to suffer from, it sounds miserable. It certainly does affect more men than women, but only a small percentage of men and only in some cultures.
There is no other solution than to help as many men as possible get over it. Even if all women were virgins until marriage, there would still be sufferers of this. Some even become overwhelmed with jealousy over things like middle school crushes.
Do you have some other solution?
...............................
A
female
reader, janniepeg +, writes (5 January 2013):
If anything I think RJ is what most males evolve out of. Their species will be extinct in the western world if they keep on insisting getting virgins for mates, or ask potential mates about their past when they are dating.
...............................
A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (5 January 2013): I think many women do not want there to be a natural basis for RJ so they can dismiss it. If RJ is entirely "cultural" then they can brush off the whole thing as something men "just have to grow up and get over" instead of recognizing that its not that simple. It's not a fair way to look at the issue.
I gave the FWB example because its an example of women seeming to "naturally" feel a certain way different from men. Nature, nurture, whatever. Either way I think men have been more willing to try to see women's point of view on these kinds of relationship/sex differences, and to try to find fairer compromises. All I ever seem to hear from women is "men are wrong, men are unfair, men must change!" on any differences that cause much friction.
...............................
A
female
reader, So_Very_Confused +, writes (5 January 2013):
I agree with person12345 that it's not evolutionary at all AND CindyCares took the words right out of my mouth.
I had NEVER heard of RJ before coming to DC and I started having sex at age 14 (back in the 70s thank you very much) and have had many partners over the years and I have NEVER had one who was jealous of my past.
And the assumption that FWB issues can be compared to RJ is ludicrous. FWB is something both parties go into. RJ is something ONE partner foists on the other without warning.
Yes most of the time with FWB the woman is the one who gets hurt... and yet unless a man lies to her to get her to be FWB, I have never seen the women here do anything but explain why the young lady is wrong in her assumption that giving sex to a man will bring him closer to her emotionally. It's actually rather painful to watch these girls learn this very valuable lesson.
RJ is just not the same thing as there is no lesson for the person being subjected to it to learn other than find a different man. To be honest I think that the men who have RJ have different issues than the few women I have seen here with RJ and since it seems to apply to a very SMALL portion of the population I'm not seeing how it can be evolutionary....
...............................
A
female
reader, CindyCares  +, writes (5 January 2013):
 @anon male , with all due respect, but is it really so natural and consistent as you say ?, personally I have only your word for that , and I hesitate taking you -or anybody else- as a general ,universal parameter of male conduct.
Personally, I am... well, older than I'd care to admit in mixed company :) -I have had a varied,intense life that brought me in touch with a lot of different people from different countries, social and ethnical background, ... and I swear that the very first time that I even heard of RJ, was when I joined Dear Cupid two years ago !
Not scientific evidence, I agree, yet...it can't be as pervasive and ingrained as you claim !
...............................
A
female
reader, person12345 +, writes (5 January 2013):
"But ON THE WHOLE this particular trait in men is VERY consistent through different times and places. There is as much reason to think RJ is a natural male trait as there is for many female traits which are pretty much taken for granted to be normal."It's actually not. Men who have wanted virgins have wanted them for a huge variety of reasons often having nothing to do with RJ and those reasons have changed a lot throughout history and across different cultures religions and time periods. There are also quite a few women who suffer from this as well.I'm not sure what you are talking about with FWB and can think of no similarities between the two issues whatsoever or how this could be classed as a female issue that women use to punish and hurt men. There are also many men who get hurt from FWB situations.Why is it so important to you that your feelings have to be sex specific? Why does it make you so incredibly angry that your feelings might not come from maleness but rather, from culture?
...............................
A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (5 January 2013): I grow tired of listening to women insisting that men's feelings about RJ are not based on anything natural. Look at the world and history. You can find exceptions to everything. But ON THE WHOLE this particular trait in men is VERY consistent through different times and places. There is as much reason to think RJ is a natural male trait as there is for many female traits which are pretty much taken for granted to be normal. Everyone, think about this thread the next time a young female shows up on Dearcupid with FWB problems. She feels terribly hurt that she was in a FWB with a guy who never had feelings for her. She "naturally" thought the relationship would grow into more and wonders why he "used her" like he did. People invariably start sympathizing with her for the mistaken assumption she made. In fact people often demonize the guy for doing what he did even though he was honest about it. As if he should have "known better" even though he technically did nothing wrong. When this happens, do a bunch of men step in and start throwing a shit-fit? Do men bristle at the mere IDEA that its okay for many women to feel differently about this than men do? Do they start claiming there is no clear proof that women have any evolutionary reason to have those feelings? No, men don't. On the whole they are willing to recognize that women and men have innate differences even when it does not benefit their side to do so. Regardless of the nature-nurture debate they recognize that people should try to show some understanding and compromising for these differences.
...............................
A
male
reader, Yos +, writes (4 January 2013):
I think we can call this post well and truly hi-jacked. Apologies to our original poster.
"If anything behavioral was an evolutionary adaptation, it would not vary wildly depending on where you are in the world and what period of history you are in."
Very much so. Any plausible EP hypothesis would have to explain a universal behaviour that exists across all societies and at all stages of recorded history. That's why anthropology and sociology are so important: they provide the counter examples.
Having said that, back to the previous point: just because we have an innate genetic tendency doesn't mean we have to behave that way. Or in a more complex model: we can be said to have many dormant genetic programs, some of which are activated based on circumstances. That means a strong EP hypothesis would have to describe most cultures / time periods and have very good (adaptive) reasons for not applying in the situations where it's not observed.
Anyway... the way I personally see evolutionary psychology right now is a set of interesting and provocative conjectures that may well be true but are as yet unproven and mostly unprovable. That means we have no way to sort the truth from the fiction. Still it makes for interesting reading, as long as we don't take it as fact, only inspiration.
...............................
A
female
reader, person12345 +, writes (4 January 2013):
I've found that generally only people who are knowledgeable in their fields actually know how to search the internet for the information they want efficiently."if you go ask most members of the AIBS what they think of modern psychology, you will at best receive a bunch of smirks and head shaking"No, they actually don't. In fact many biologists, especially behavioral ones work very closely with psychologists and sociologists.The brain evolves, behavior evolves, no one is saying it doesn't. There are ways to scientifically test those things. What you are "citing" is a situation of a bunch of men who sit around and speculate that because men like to do x, it is innate and unchangeable and evolved from caveman behavior. That is not science. There is no evidence, there is no testing, there is nothing. All it is, is an unsupported untested hypothesis. That's it. There is nothing more to it.I'm not sure what you're trying to say about physics, but if it can't be physically tested, then it's mathematically tested. If it can't be shown mathematically or at least have very strong evidence of some kind, no one takes it seriously."I'm rather simply stating the currently accepted scientific consensus on why it IS."But it's not an accepted scientific consensus. If anything behavioral was an evolutionary adaptation, it would not vary wildly depending on where you are in the world and what period of history you are in. I am not just talking about RJ, I'm talking about the vast majority of EP hypotheses. They go against sociology AND history AND actual psychology AND biology with no evidence to back their claims.There is the nature versus nurture debate, but this is not that debate. I'm sure evolution does have some effect on our behaviors, but we have NO idea what effect and right now we do not have the means to find out.
...............................
A
female
reader, Abella +, writes (4 January 2013):
 Should you stay? No.He my have seemed too good to be true, but that was only one side of him.His other side may not have emerged until you'd been married 5 weeks, or 5 months or 5 years. But eventually his nasty side would have surfaced.He's angry because you have suddenly become 'not perfect' in his eyes.But he has a big conflict within him too.It probably eats him up that deep down he's not perfect.He put on a good show for an extended time. Demonstrating that he was Mr Perfect and just 'too good to be true'.And a 'too good to be true' person needs a perfect partner.He met you and he felt complete.But there's a lot of pressure on a person attempting to appear 'too good to be true' One spark can cause a flash fire that can go on devastate even more.You presented him with that spark. It was NOT your fault. How were you to know he had a nasty side?How were you to know that the spark would ingnite the rage within him, threatening his wish to appear to be perfect? You had no idea he was so afflicted. Suddenly his nasty side was unleashed and allowed to come out of the box. And he will not let up. In fact he may become worse, over time. And sarcastic. Emotionallly abusive.From that moment on he felt enabled to treat you less favourablyHis petty criticsms will start to dominate your relationship.You know you will not enjoy living as his gopher and resident victim to abuse,If he can't accept you as you are then he does not deserve you as you are.Otherwise who wants to''Sleep with the enemy,'' for decades? And who wants to share their life and their body with someone who can only criticze and find fault with them?And even he can't enjoy himself either. Because you have proof that's he not Mr Perfect anymore. (Actually none of us are perfect) He's got a nasty side that he had hoped to keep a secret.You DO deserve better than this.Tell him to go find a 30 year old virgin woman who's as good, in so many ways, as you are.
...............................
A
female
reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (4 January 2013):
 Frankly, I think you should end the relationship. He's controlling, demanding and demeans you. Being forced to apologize over and over again for something that happened once, between you and another consenting adult, is frankly ridiculous.
Hippocampus, hypothalamus, evolutionary, biology, blah blah blah.
If he's acting like a jerk, he IS a jerk. The "provocation" of your past one-night-stand was merely the prompt for him to take off his mask.
Don't marry him.
...............................
A
male
reader, Serpico +, writes (4 January 2013):
12345 -
Whenever you have to resort to your online resume, ie - "I work with some of the most powerful people in the field," to support your argument, you have already lost. To that, from what you have written I believe the extent of your "scientific knowledge" goes no further that what you gathered off of Google a few minutes prior to crafting your post.
Please re-read what Yos has written. His arguments are well thought out and its clear he has a scientific background, or at least knowledge of scientific reasoning. You would do well to mirror this.
...............................
A
female
reader, CindyCares +, writes (4 January 2013):
Cultural vs. biological is always a fascinating debate and I am sure we could carry it on, with valid arguments from both sides, for a long time- but, hijacking the thread, and probably boring the OP and other readers to death :).
My point was simply : person 12345 expressed a non evolutionary opinion... but the adapationist- evolutionary point of view is nothing more than a different opinion, equally debatable , it's not that it retains per se more intellectual nobility.
More interesting and pertinent is your observation, Yos, which I heartly subscribe that , even if we find out something was genetically programmed, - it does not mean we are BOUND to do it. If for that , we are programmed to do a lot of stupid stuff, like, e.g., reproduce as soon as we hit puberty. That does not mean that every 14 y.o just can't help getting pregnant !
...............................
A
female
reader, person12345 +, writes (4 January 2013):
"Not a single conjecture you wrote is consistent with the current consensus in the field of biology."
First off, I wasn't even talking biology, I was talking anthropology and sociology. Other cultures have had different views of how pregnancy happens: fact. Other cultures have different views on virginity and even what it is: fact. Sex partners from over nine months ago have no bearing on a woman becoming pregnant: fact. Is there some other biology thing I said?
Evolutionary psychology is NOT biology nor is it in any way related to biology. In biology they search for genes that may cause certain behaviors. That's science. Taking behaviors and speculating that it's ingrained by evolution? That's philosophy, maybe.
Evolutionary psychology as you're describing it is the laughing stock of the science world. I work in science, I work with some of the most prominent and powerful figures in biology and chemistry. Over the past few years I have asked them about this and they all have to work hard not to pee themselves laughing so hard that they call themselves scientists. I did work once with someone who does the actual science side of this and asked him what he thought about this type of attributing behaviors to evolution. He started laughing then went off ranting using the words "preposterous" and "embarrassment" several times.
It's not just possible they will one day attribute behaviors to evolution, they already do. They can "look" at genes and try to figure out which ones cause what behavior. That already happens and is well-respected. Because genes are testable, they are physically there. Taking behaviors that happen and speculating on how they might have come from evolution? That is NOT science, that is a bunch of men talking over coffee.
...............................
A
male
reader, Serpico +, writes (4 January 2013):
@Cindycares -Similarly, if you go ask most members of the AIBS what they think of modern psychology, you will at best receive a bunch of smirks and head shaking. This is true for most of the hard sciences, who look at endeavors like psychology as at best guessing and at worst quackery.As Yos stated, if you accept evolution, the only leap of faith you must take to accept EP is to assume the brain is subject the same evolutionary forces as everything other part of us - hardly a large leap of faith. As he also correctly certs, part of the problem with EP is the difficulty of confirmation through experimentation, but there are plenty of accepted scientific endeavors that face the same challenge. Many areas of modern physics (my degree) fall in this arena. In many cases, experimentation can be difficult, like building a super-collider large enough to investigate claims of string theory, or even directly impossible, like the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, in which observation itself changes the observation. But I digress.....
...............................
A
male
reader, Serpico +, writes (4 January 2013):
Yos - To be sure, my claims are not ethical ones, they are metaphysical ones. I'm not defending a mans right to use RJ to punish a woman - far from it. I'm rather simply stating the currently accepted scientific consensus on why it IS. What bristles me a bit is when people start making blanket claims about a scientific consensus being "purely speculative" or start name calling in the face of what this scientific consensus suggests. With that, I agree with you that a genetic/evolutionary marker that indicates a proclivity to act in a certain fashion in no way provides carte blanch for acting in that way with impunity. However we're made up, we're still all responsible for our own actions, and we all exist within a certain social contract that applies to the modern day. We must conform our genetic dispositions to that, since the other way around is such a slow go of it.
...............................
A
male
reader, Yos +, writes (4 January 2013):
Much new science is laughed at by the establishment until in a sudden burst of embarrassment they have to accept and adapt to it. It's not so long ago we burned people at the stake for saying the world went around the sun. That many contemporary psychologists laugh at evolutionary psychology isn't a refutation, in other words.
Evolutionary psychology is very plausible: all you have to accept is that the brain is subject to the same 'laws' of evolution as the rest of nature appears to be. That and some behaviour is coded into our brains. Hardly a great leap of faith! It also comes up with some very sensible sounding conclusions.
The problem is it's currently close to impossible to design experiments to test it: meaning it's not really science at all. (Plenty of other psychology shares that failing imho).
As we become better able to understand genetics and work out exactly what combinations of genes cause certain behaviours (rather than just physical traits) it should find a more solid ground.
The thing that generally bugs me when people talk about evolutionary psychology is the fallacy that 'because your genes have a behaviour for it' you have no responsibility for your behaviour. Eg: arguing that humans are genetically programmed to be unfaithful therefore there's no point in being faithful, and no blame associated with cheating. Nonsense of course: just because we are capable of something doesn't make it the right thing to do.
...............................
A
female
reader, CindyCares +, writes (4 January 2013):
@ Serpico... sure, biology . Evolutionary biology . Absolutely important in genetic research and various branch of medicine. But, applied to human behaviour in the field of social interaction, pairing, mating etc. it becomes Evolutionary Psychology, and, sorry, but the current scientific consensus is that EP , or adaptionism, is sort of a joke in modern psichology. Go ask the APA what do they think of evolutionary psichology and they will tear up with laughs.
Biology applied to SOCIALIZED human behaviour , in a quite different context and culture from that of pre-tribal hunter-gatherers aggregations of several thousands years ago, is ALSO an opinion, founded on many untested and untestable assumptions. It tells you the how, not the why : how the amigdala or whatnot got to go from X size to Y size with what physical consequences, - from there to
assert that if you have a big amigdala you'll do such an such, it's all speculation. For every speculative hypothesis of adaptionism ( biology applied to human social behaviour ) there are as many non genetic, non evolutionary, cultural hypothesis or more.
The biologic approach is an interesting, even fascinating one, but nothing conclusive or not vastly challengeable, and challenged, by science itself.
...............................
A
male
reader, Yos +, writes (4 January 2013):
For me this fundamentally comes down to making choices: exercising our free will.
When you're experiencing negative emotions, resentment and jealousy towards your partner you are facing a choice.
You can give in to the feelings: and blame your partner, and give them a hard time, either directly or passive aggressively.
Or you can still accept the feelings, even share them, but don't place blame on or punish your partner. If you do this you can find the feelings fade much faster and the relationship doesn't become toxic. And then in time the hold these negative emotions have becomes less and less.
Discussions about evolutionary psychology and similar are interesting for discussing why these feelings might occur, but that doesn't really change what do do about it if it does happen. The choice remains the same.
...............................
A
male
reader, Serpico +, writes (4 January 2013):
12345 - Not a single conjecture you wrote is consistent with the current consensus in the field of biology.
You have a right to your opinion. You don't have the right to re-write scientific texts predicated entirely on the stipulation that you find their conclusions inconvenient.
I just felt the need to set that straight for the board.
...............................
A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (3 January 2013): His image of you has been shattered. You will never be able to do enough to please this man for your so called indiscretion that you in your past.But, did you make him work hard to get you? Think about it. He is resenting that fact now that you had a one night stand. But, clearly, he is making you "pay" for your mistake in his eyes. Is that the life you want? I beg to differ.I've had several experiences and my current boyfriend is quite okay with that since I've come in well trained and I know what I am doing in his words.It all comes down to an individual's perspective and what they want in a partner.His form of punishment will only get worse. I am afraid he will harbor a grudge for years...even decades and I would much rather remain single than have to endure that kind of misery in a marriage. Get out now, while you can!
...............................
A
female
reader, person12345 +, writes (3 January 2013):
"About his double standards that others have mentioned, when did we learn anything about this man's own sexual habits? People need to stop stereotyping men like this."
Why is it not OK to try to "stereotype" him that he's probably had sex before, but it's OK for you to stereotype that all men are bothered by a woman's past?
...............................
A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (3 January 2013): Your BF's feelings are very understandable. But the way he is dealing with them and treating you is not. I agree that you should not keep putting up with this.
Give him an ultimatum that he needs to start respecting you again or break up with him. You are not the source of all his problems in life. It seems he is carrying around all this resentment about it, ready to boil over as soon as anything else in life upsets him in the slightest. You don't deserve this.
His comment about you being attracted instantly to someone else, but he had to work very hard to get you. This is part of the problem. You won't be able to make him stop feeling hurt about this part. Your actions have already done the talking. If your BF was led to believe that you make all guys wait for sex with you, and then discovers that only some guys have to work hard for it . . . what guy wants to be in the latter group? That does not feel like you respect him more, that feels like you respect him less.
About his double standards that others have mentioned, when did we learn anything about this man's own sexual habits? People need to stop stereotyping men like this.
...............................
A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (3 January 2013): Loss of "respect" can happen to both Men and Women. This is a HORRIBLE and disgusting double standard. Was he the ever pious virgin altar boy when you guys met? I HIGHLY DOUBT IT.
Regarding Toomuchlove's response, a decent man would also be a virgin or a man that only slept with people who they married. Right? But that is hardly the case.
It's a horrible double stanrdad, and if he is not mature enough to understand that you are his and only his now and take you and make you happy he is not worth it. He is nothing but an immature child, or at least that is how he is acting.
You ar eon your 30s OP, you are not old at all, but you have had some experience. I am sure he has too, so please go and get yourself a REAL man that respects you and understand what happened BEFORE him, he is not the virgin Mary. He has to grow up.
Move on,
ask yourself, Do I want to get this treatment forever?????
...............................
A
female
reader, person12345 +, writes (3 January 2013):
"do know that retro jealousy is a product of male evolution - specifically being described by the phrase - 'Mommy's baby, daddy's maybe.'"
Sorry but that's nonsense. People have always known sex leads to baby, but that's the end of it. There are MANY groups of people who either before they knew about modern science or who still hold onto tradition do not believe that a baby's father has anything to do with who the mother has sex with. In fact in several groups even in modern times, women who are married through arranged marriage are expected and encouraged to have sex with other men and the husband is still considered the father, even if she gets pregnant without having sex with him at all. The whole idea of virginity is not a biological one, but a cultural one.
Further, even if this was a biological thing, previous sex partners would have nothing whatsoever to do with anything at all in the present day with whether the baby was the father's. The only thing that would matter would be if she was sleeping with other males while that particular male wanted to pass on his genes. Women are not fish who can hold onto sperm for months at a time, so previous sex is irrelevant to paternity unless it was within the previous nine months.
Evolutionary psychology is not an actual science, it is just speculation.
...............................
A
male
reader, Serpico +, writes (3 January 2013):
mouse -
To be specific - do know that retro jealousy is a product of male evolution - specifically being described by the phrase - "Mommy's baby, daddy's maybe." So with that, it can be argued that men who suffer from RJ are actually biologically more "men," as you put it, than guys who don't.
As far as living in a different age, I suggest you do a search for RJ in these forums, as it is much more prevalent than you think.
Everyone deals with things different. I happen to have direct experience to exactly what the OPs bf is going through, so I felt the basis for offering it. With that. I offered up my own solution, as something that worked for me. The last thing I think anyone wants is two people struggling in a relationship that will never work, for whatever reason.
...............................
A
female
reader, person12345 +, writes (3 January 2013):
It's still bothering him and he's punishing you. He has decided he is entitled to treat you like garbage because he believes you've lowered yourself somehow, even though you haven't. You are a human, not a car, and your sex partners are not owners who lower your value. I honestly am not sure you will be able to work this out with this guy since he is still stuck in medieval times. It will be very hard to get him over those feelings, if not impossible. Especially since it is you who is upset, not him.
I think it's probably time to move on and find someone from 2013 rather than 1950.
"ALL MEN will prefer maidens over the experienced. That's the ugly truth."
Actually it's not, and they don't. Just because that is your opinion, doesn't mean everyone feels that way. Why don't you post under your username male anon? You frequently write in on these RJ posts.
...............................
A
male
reader, anon_e_mouse  +, writes (3 January 2013):
 If it was before you even met who cares? It doesn't change anything.
"I suggest giving him an ultimatum: either drop it entirely and stop harboring resentment, or threaten to leave him"
You can't give him an ultimatum because even if he says "ok" it will still be there. You can't just turn resentment off with the flick of a switch. If he can't accept it happened before you even met and you are marrying him then there really isn't any hope here I'm afraid.
"Just because SOME men cannot handle the truth about a womans sexual past does not mean that you should feel the need to lie to other potential future partners. By doing so, you take responsibility for a mans immaturity and lack of self esteem and quite frankly if a man has a problem with a womans sexual past...hat's his damn problem and it's his damn problem".
I agree with AuntyEm here. If he can't handle it then I'm afraid he's not a MAN but a BOY.
I disagree with Serpico who seems to live in a different age. She's not saying she's had loads. But it has happened. So what? Putting anyone on a pedestal is a recipe for disaster, whoever it is. Sounds more like jealousy then disappointment to me. If I was disappointed I wouldn't get angry.
The other fact is, putting all that aside, he isn't treating you right. That's enough right there to end it. Bye bye. Go find yourself a MAN rather than a BOY.
...............................
A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (3 January 2013): You say that he is under a lot of pressure. Well, make it less pressure for him and call off the wedding.
He is punishing you for your past. My gosh, you are in your 30's! What about his past?? I am sure he has a sexual past at well. If he can't handle the truth, then he needs to get a virgin. Good luck with that.
My significant other has a past as well, with a friend with benefits relationship and has dated women that I know from high school since his divorce as well as a co-worker of his. Am I suppose to judge? No, I will not. That is his past.
These women made him what he is today. Maybe I get jealous from time to time because they had him before me, but I am mature enough to handle it. One woman was absolutely beautiful by the way. Did that get to me? Yes, of course. I am only human. But he is with me now.
My past has been a few one night stands in college. I dated several men in college until I got married. Then I become widowed young. He doesn't judge me on my past.
Your fiance should be thankful that you want to spend your life with him. It appears not so. I truly would move on and find a more mature man that can handle your past and not one that can't handle the truth.
...............................
A
female
reader, So_Very_Confused +, writes (3 January 2013):
I agree that he's holding on to the past and punishing you for falling of that perfect pedestal he had you on and that you will probably have to move on.
I do not agree with lying in the future... RATHER I suggest finding a man who does NOT have a double standard about sex.
I was never anything less than honest with any of my long term partners about my previous sexual history and it was very very long and varied....
Thankfully my current husband is not a judgmental misogynist with the belief that while men may have a past women must not.
It's one thing to be shocked when finding out the truth.
It takes an adult to say "I can't cope and I'm leaving" or to say "while I'm not happy I will adapt" and then DO IT and not punish you for the supposed sins of the past.
Men (and women) that are so judgmental as to punish you for choices you made prior to them being a part of your life, are not people I suggest associating with. It's not worth the grief they put you through because they are in love with an image that you can not live up to.
...............................
A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (3 January 2013): I actually can't believe some of the responses from some of the men on here! It is not ok for your boyfriend to hold something against you that you did before you even met him. If he couldn't handle it he should have left, not punished you for something that does not live up to his (in my opinion) ridiculously high standards. If some posters are correct and he agrees with their points of view then I don't think you have a choice but to leave him. He must have very low self esteem, very low tolerance for others and does not sound capable of having a mature relationship in the 21st century, whereby women are just as entitled to have sex when they want to as men are.
...............................
A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (3 January 2013): When a man acts this way towards a woman, it is not immaturity. It's disappointment. OP, DECENT men cannot honor a woman they cannot respect. Plain and Simple. When I say decent, I mean men who respect women enough to not have sex with them for whatever reason except in a committed relationship i.e. marriage. Yes! Nobody’s perfect but that doesn't excuse us for being lazy towards caring for our virtues. In the end my dear when all is said and done, your virtue is the only thing worth trading for a man's love either he be decent or indecent for when it comes to happily ever after, ALL MEN will prefer maidens over the experienced. That's the ugly truth. So for your case, what will be suggested is this: If you feel no remorse about not saving yourself for your future husband (which in this case being him), then it's best to put him out of his misery and cut him loose. Go find another man who has no remorse about having 'fun' with women and start a committed relationship with such a man. In that way you both will be 'matured' about your own sexual pasts.
...............................
A
male
reader, Serpico +, writes (3 January 2013):
Also, please read what lovetoomuch wrote. I absolutely guarantee that is the way your bf is looking at it.
Next, AntyEm, please refrain from the name calling. Asking her to find someone less "immature" is no different than asking him to find someone less "immoral." Its just different strokes.
...............................
A
male
reader, Serpico +, writes (3 January 2013):
I can tell you this. Its still bugging him, more than you know, and it will continue to bug him, more than you know.
I know this because I was in the same exact situation as him - almost exactly the same. I found that no matter how hard I tried, I simply could not be with a woman who had a one night stand, so it was best for me to move on. Im with a woman now who never has, and Im all the happier.
Im going to put it to you bluntly, even if you stay together, he will likely never get to the point where it doesnt bother him at all, and unfortunately the chances of your relationship going back to the "way it was before" are almost zero. Fair or not, he sees you differently now, and a decision must be made if that's ok with the both of you.
...............................
A
male
reader, Yos +, writes (3 January 2013):
If we had to be pressure free to love someone no one would ever be in love. It's the hard times that really tell us whether we are in love, not the easy ones.
He's just making excuses.
It's really very simple: he's entitled to negative feelings from time to time but he's not entitled to hold you ransom with them. You have to be crystal clear with him or he'll just keep doing it.
I was in his shoes once. It took a major wake up call to get my past it
...............................
A
female
reader, oldbag +, writes (3 January 2013):
 Hi
I really don't get why people feel the need to confess these things to their partners.Your past is just that,your past.
He clearly cannot handle this and until you reach some sort of common ground I would hold off on marrying him.If he has this attitude over something that happened years ago,before you knew him, he won't make a great husband.
Your not tainted your a 30+ woman who has a history, and a one night stand years ago is hardly a hanging offence. He may have changed his view of you but thats his problem,you are the same woman he dated happily for years and proposed to.
Personally I couldn't marry a man who 'punished' me like this, I would want to be free of him and his archaic judgements.
...............................
A
female
reader, AuntyEm +, writes (3 January 2013):
 I disagree with the male commenter TOOMUCH LOVE.
Just because SOME men cannot handle the truth about a womans sexual past does not mean that you should feel the need to lie to other potential future partners. By doing so, you take responsibility for a mans immaturity and lack of self esteem and quite frankly if a man has a problem with a womans sexual past...hat's his damn problem and it's his damn problem.
The whole idea of wanting one's partner 'on a pedestal' is absolutely unrealistic, controlling and ridiculous and for any man to suggest that a woman can only be perfect if she's on that pedestal is delusional...here's the news...NOBODY IS PERFECT and we DO NOT live in a perfect world.
People have sex, it's a fact of life, whether in a relationship or out of a relationship. People should be honest about their sexual past if they think they are dealing with a person who is dead set on being in a relationship with a virgin...and also the person wishing to only have a virgin as a partner should state that up front...
I suggest you dump your boyfriend and go and date someone a little less immature and idealistic.
...............................
A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (3 January 2013): No you don`t deserve such treatment and you should not tolerate it. If he is not making you happy, don`t get married and explain why! I wouldnt entertain the idea of marriage until you have both tried counselling and put this matter to rest properly, otherwise it will come back to haunt you. He is being unreasonable.
If your revelation was too much for him to cope with, he should have left you. He was too weak to leave, instead he hung around, made you suffer for a past deed and frustrated by his own weakness...he took that frustration out on you too. Not an attractive package. I would think long and hard about this guy and ask yourself if he is really the type of person you want.
...............................
A
male
reader, lovetoomuch +, writes (3 January 2013):
It’s called loss of respect. He had you on a pedestal and by you telling him of your one nighter- you jumped off the pedestal. I am going through a similar thing now myself with my wife. He thought of you as un defiled. Now you are dirty to him.Women think differently. To you it had no emotional feelings, Just physical. It meant nothing , like going and getting a massage. Felt good to you and that is it.Men are physical. In his mind, You gave this guy you don’t know your body the most privet part of your sole. Some other guy now has a notch on his staff that has your name by it. That can’t be erased. Being sorry won’t take it away. In his head he sees you with this guy. Having wild one night sex.That picture will stay there it not going away. If he can’t get passed it. Move on. And the next boyfried you get – keep your past to yourself. Even lie- we as men can’t handle the truth. Tell them you are not very experienced sexually, because you need to have a loving connection with a guy to do that kind of thing. Take you history with you to the grave. It will be for his own good.
...............................
A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (3 January 2013): Yos, thanks for your advice. Indeed, I think I have reached my limit and told him that we need some cool off time. What disappoints me is that he still doesn't see my point and blame me for not being understanding that he is under lots of pressure from everywhere (work, family, wedding). Is that a valid reason? Do you really need to feel pressure-free in order to love someone??
...............................
A
male
reader, Yos +, writes (3 January 2013):
It sounds like it's still bugging him but he's not mentioning it. I suggest giving him an ultimatum: either drop it entirely and stop harboring resentment, or threaten to leave him. He's not going to return to the way he was unless he really believes he'll lose you if he doesn't.
...............................
|
