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anonymous
writes: A lot of advice I see given here counsels the person to just cut their losses when the going gets even a little rough. Its sad and pathetic.Is everyone on this site defeated in one way or another? It seems that way from some of the topics, and "advice" I see given. People who have lost all hope for something meaningful and not willing to fight for something at all just because it might just hurt a little. So by all means bounce out to some new part of the human buffet. This becomes a repeated pattern though. Humans are creatures of habit, after all.Don't people have any commitment anymore, or determination, or zeal, or faith? How about conviction?Sure there are some situations where a cutting of losses is advisable. Such as abusive situations and ect. But a lot of stuff I have been reading lately seems like defeated people counseling other people to become defeated, because after all, if THEY do it, then that must be the right way. Reply to this Article
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reader, anonymous, writes (27 July 2009): Regarding what the anonymous poster said...I don't think the advice here is silly at all. I have asked a question here myself once, and somebody gave me a brilliant reply. It really got me thinking about the situation I was in, how I had got to that point, and how I could move forward. That person inspired me to write my first article on anorexia, which was a great release for me.Also, I for one didn't start out on this site because I had asked a question, and then decided to stick around. I was in a relatively calm phase of my life, and felt that I could be of some help. If I do feel particularly rubbish at certain times, I usually refrain from answering questions until I have got over the down period, because I know I will be coming from a negative perspective if I try to force myself to give advice.I agree that if someone is in a situation which requires specialist help, then this is probably not the best place to seek help. But otherwise, I think that so-called "ordinary" people can give even better advice than some experts. I have seen many, many experts over the years, and some of them in fact did more harm than good. The people here usually have actual experience to draw on, and can use that to really try and understand somebody else.You are right that some people seem to want to ensure that they are getting the best possible answer they can. And why not? But I always try to encourage those people, who keep asking "What exactly should I do? This, or this?", to trust themselves, to make their own decision in the end, no matter what anyone else has to say.I find it frustrating too when arguments between agony aunts start, simply because of a difference of opinion. I think we all need to try and bear in mind that we are all individuals, and will have our own take on a situation. As for answers not getting printed, or removed, I think it is to try and keep things in order, and not encourage verbal abuse. Besides, many times when an argument breaks out, the original question, and the original person asking for help, gets forgotten in the middle of it all. Things can spiral out of control if left.This article has certainly got a lot of people thinking! It's great to hear so many different points of view.
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reader, anonymous, writes (27 July 2009): I think the problem with this site is that everyone who gives "their advice" has already come to this site with a previous agenda - they themselves came here seeking advice over some issue, and for whatever reason, they have stayed to give advice to other people. Therein lies the danger; their views may be biased in certain areas (and they are, I guess, not even qualifed to give advice). In fact, I sometimes read the responses on here and end up getting even more confused. Some people want definitive answers, hopefully backed up by a professional qualification so they can "trust" they've been given the best advice. Sometimes the people giving the advice on here spout their diatribe, or attack other advice givers and you end up not being able to respond because suddenly your answers don't get printed or wiped off so you end up feeling even more frustrated. In essence, do NOT come to this site if you want real, trusted, expert advice on any serious matter. If it's your usual run of the mill silly advice that you want, then by all means post on here because it's really not important.
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reader, rocknroll  +, writes (24 July 2009):
Everyone is entitled to their opinion! Everyone has a right to always think they are correct! But if we really want to help others and bond to those closest, then I suggest we all keep our personal feelings out of it, for it might taint the message we are trying to send.I have noticed what the poster is saying, at least, based on what I read, I think the replier over did their comments, especially after reading the poster help message and I walk away wishing I knew more about them to actually give them much more, avoiding giving help that doesn't fit their needs.I can only suggest that the best medicine for this type of situation, would be after reading it, step away and deal with the personal indifference to the posters problem.Telling someone to dump another without knowing all the ins and outs of the situation, is giving bad advice.
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reader, anonymous, writes (24 July 2009): Oh, and I don't feel defeated at all. I have had some people who I have answered send me a PM asking for more discussion and advice. I have also advised someone not to give up on a situation and they do anyway. However, others take the advice of me and others and solve their problem. I talked to two women for months each and both of them worked out their problem and seem to be relatively happy with the result. I have also talked several times to a couple of men and they could not come to terms with their problem and gave up.
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reader, anonymous, writes (24 July 2009): I haven't read all of the answers so this might have already been said. I do agree with you to some extent. There are some people on this site that seem to always recommend that some woman leave a guy who does anything at all that is hurtful or not the best decision. They never recommend discussion or to work out a problem. And no, I will not give examples, even though I could find a dozen in an hour of searching. That would just start an argument. I don't mind an argument, but not with those who I think give useless answers. Actually, there is one person who I could find a dozen examples of without looking for anyone else. Sometimes the answer is to give up and leave, but when that is the answer nearly 100% or the time most of what they say is useless.
That being said, I think that most of the aunts and uncles here do give at least good advice and some that normally give excellent and well thought out advice. I don't always agree with them, but that is normal for all of us. We all have our personal opinions on how to handle a problem.
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reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (24 July 2009):
 I had been hoping for an actual example of what you considered 'defeatist' and what you would have written instead.
Well, thanks for your slant on things; I'm sure we're all more aware of the importance of not telling people to quit too soon, as in your case. Take care!
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reader, anonymous, writes (24 July 2009): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionSy, I have written the occasional advice post, yes, so as such I have been around enough to see several posts that act as a "trigger" for this. In addition, I have received defeatist advice in my day to day as well.
Tisha and KC, If you want a specific example, well I thought I gave one. My relationship where I asked a question here, and of my family, peers, and friends, and got the same answer, just about, from all. I went the other way from that advice after some deep soul searching, and ultimately benefited after a considerable amount of hardship. As a result, I suppose that has made me a fair bit self-righteous, so that is a good call.
HTH, no.. I do not value the opinion of a religious sort over the opinion of someone that is still...searching. As I thought I said, I am not your typical militant christian that believes all others are eternally damned that don't believe a specific set of beliefs. My best friend, is in fact, an atheist. And I respect what he has to say in all things. That guy has been there for me through thick and thin, so he deserves it. I usually take people on a case by case basis, that's just how I am wired.
I hear what a lot of you are saying about different situations, and how you are not being paid for this, and how you might even be trying to counsel against a certain path you might have taken, but I have seen the reverse to the latter too often. I figured it warranted a discussion and I'm glad some of you, Samantha and others, see what I am trying to say.
a few more thoughts..
Quarky, reality is such a fragile thing. Your perception of it will differ from someone else's. To me, reality is acceptance of limitation. This can be good, but more often its used as an excuse to justify imposing far more limitation than really exists.
finally..
"listen i am a person who has lost faith and hope in everthing i had and i joined this site to help people not make the same mistake i did"
Bless you for coming right out and saying it. I know I hold a controversial opinion here, but you should not be giving advice from a place of not having faith and hope in ANYTHING. Even when you mean your best, your absolute best, it will still come from a skewed viewpoint, steeped in pessimism and despair. You should fix your life first, then try to fix others. If charity work makes you feel better about yourself, then by all means join a soup kitchen, or accompany a congregation to build houses for natural disaster victims. But guiding others along their burgeoning life paths is not the best thing for you to be doing right now.
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reader, anonymous, writes (24 July 2009): listen i am a person who has lost faith and hope in everthing i had and i joined this site to help people not make the same mistake i did and iw ould like to say u should not disrespect us because we are taking time out of are own lives to help people with there problems and we do not need people like u coming here and telling us what we r doing wrong so why dont u go and get lost.
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reader, anonymous, writes (24 July 2009): k c100, I think what you said was excellent, you really summed up what I was thinking! Especially the point about what works for one person, and in one situation, won't necessarily be the right approach for another person, in another situation.
To the author of this article though, I do still hear what you are saying. I suppose our own experiences can shape and mould our attitudes a lot. For example, a woman who has been cheated on a few times might decide that all men are liars, and hold the viewpoint that relationships never really work out anyway. So if somebody was to go to them for advice about a relationship, her advice might be more along the lines of "Men are not to be trusted! Leave him, it will never work!"
However, I think the majority of people, especially from what I have seen on here, try to step outside of their own mind-frame, and try to be more open-minded to other possibilities. It is true, some experiences can make people bitter. And maybe they aren't then in a good position to keep a level head at that time. But I think a lot of people in general genuinely want to grow, and want to become more open to other viewpoints, other possibilities, other solutions and methods.
I am still grateful I have read this article! I do like to hope that I remain objective when giving advice, and keep an open mind. But from reading the points made here, I will definitely consider the advice that I give even more, and try to ensure that I am not coming from a negative place due to my own experiences. x
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reader, k_c100  +, writes (24 July 2009):
 I am going to respond to this because the more I read of your follow-ups, the more frustrated I seem to be getting! I agree with Tisha here, there must be a good reason or trigger here to prompt this article. Because all the people that have responded to this article are the main contributors to the site, there are a few of us who tend to be on most days moderating and answering questions. And I know that those of us who answer frequently on this site all give very balanced answers and provide excellent advice in most situations. I have never seen any evidence of a defeatist answer!Speaking for myself, I always try and give a balanced point of view, and hope that the poster will read my advice and take both sides of the story into consideration. With all my answers, I tend to look at the age of the poster and then concentrate on their situation - often for teenagers with boyfriends/girlfriends that are not treating them right then yes I will often tell them to leave and move on because they are too young to be wasting time on a troubled relationship when they should be having fun. But with marriages and long-term relationships, I will normally always go down the "working things out" path, because I believe that marriage is sacred and if you enter into marriage, you have made vows that should be honoured, in good times and bad. I think maybe you should have a look at some of the main aunts and uncles columns (click on their name and it will show you the questions they have recently answered). If you have a good look through our answers then I think you will find that this so called defeatist attitude we all have doesnt actually exist.To me it seems like you are incredibly self-rightous, and just because you have put all your effort into making a relationship work then everyone else should too. What was right in your situation will not be right for everyone else, and there are times when you just have to say "enough is enough". I understand that telling everyone on here to leave their partners when times get hard is wrong, but I dont think you will find that advice frequently on here. This site is an outlet for people to vent their frustrations and problems - often all the poster needs is just to write their feelings down and get them out in the open. It isnt really about the advice they receive, generally most people have their mind made up about what they are going to do before they post the question! They just want to express their feelings because they dont feel able to tell people that are close to them. Life is difficult for a lot of people, and often there isnt always the happy ending that you seem to of had in your relationship. But just to write their feelings down goes someway to help, regardless of the advice they recieve.Take me for instance, I first discovered this site when I was looking for advice on a man who I was madly in love with but he didnt want to be with me. I asked a question which in reality was irrelevant, because I already knew the answer! But I just wanted to get it off my chest, because I had never told anyone about it before even though he had been in my life for 4 years. So the advice is not really important, often it is just a source of validation for the poster as they want someone (just one person will do!) to agree with their own opinion. So I will say unless you have some actual examples of advice which is "defeatist" as you say, then I dont think you have an argument here. The advice itself is not of particular importance, and you cant even bring up an example so I dont think that your argument is actually based on any truth! It seems to me that you are having a rant because you received some defeatist advice in your life, and are now claiming that anyone that gives out advice is bitter and wants to turn everyone else bitter too.
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reader, quarky +, writes (24 July 2009):
 Defeatist, no. Realist, yes.
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reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (24 July 2009):
I'm curious which posts you think were answered in a defeatist manner, and to read what advice you'd have to give them. There must have been at least one trigger question that caused you to write this question/article.
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reader, anonymous, writes (24 July 2009): In my defense, I don't have a defeated mentality at all. I visit this site in my spear time, I read a question and give my honest opinion about something. I try rly hard to understand what the OP is trying to ask or say. My advice can be good or bad...but it is up to the OP to decide what they want for themselves based on what everyone has said and I don't mind that. At the very least I would like to have felt that I offered some help in just listening and being there as I would be for any friend of mine in my life.
Some aunts and uncles can dislike me or like me. Many have told me, "hey you give great advice!" and they proceed to describe what i did and just let me know that I did a good job. Or an Uncle can message me and say "You're a douche bag becsuse your answers are sugar coated". I wondered what one could ever hope from saying in general that your advice sucks but since he didn't say what made it suck, I couldn't take him seriously.
My point is that I'm not here for the aunts and uncles or other readers to like or dislike me/my advice. I am here for the OP. To offer my opinion, honest answer, point of view, explanation, experience and what ever else I can offer. Of course, I've appreciated all the friends I've made here and people I've gotten to know. Even if the OP doesn't like my advice then so be it, I can't do more than what I am already doing.
As far as defeated aunts and uncles go, none of the ones I know are such. They have all moved on or dealing with their past much better. A lot are in loving relationships and would wish for everyone to have that kind of happiness. So no, its not like "the blind leading the blind". And I'm pretty sure, some of the best advice in my opinion, doesn't come from someone that is "defeated".
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reader, anonymous, writes (23 July 2009): Ah.. yes we've PMed once or twice.. Under a different screen name on my part though..
Thanks heretohelpx!
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reader, anonymous, writes (23 July 2009): Well, you say 'The result is we have drowned trying to save the drowning. Blind leading the blind. So I suppose..I am feeling concern for these poor impressionable souls getting this advice presented to them like its irrevocable' What about christians leading other christians? Would that not apply to the statement you are made then aswell? What I'm trying to say is that to me it seems like you are criticising people that want to help someone who has been through a situation they're helping someone with. Even though we have established that it IS just someone's opinion. So as a christian, would you take someone's advice more seriously if they had the same religious views as you? And knew, as a christian, what you would be going through? I hope this makes sense. SY - if you look on the main articles page and scroll down to the title of this, the name is there next to it, not sure what's going on with that though as it's been posted as anon.
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reader, anonymous, writes (23 July 2009): Your writing is very familiar to me.. Are you an uncle here?
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reader, anonymous, writes (23 July 2009): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionHeretoHelp, I am not the typical christian, no. I do however, believe in God.But what does that have to do with anything? I have never tried to force someone else to believe in God. I have, however, had many people try to influence me into believing their calcified versions of religion, or.. the polar opposite of no belief at all (that one FAR more often)."You are complaining how other people answer yet you won't even 'try' and let people see from your point of view, because you're assuming they won't see from your point of view?"My very act of typing this negates your logic. Here I am, beating my head into a bloody pulp against a stone edifice again, metaphorically speaking. Did I know it would end up like this? Defensive people dissecting my every word and nuance, reveling over any perceived flaw so they can justify ignoring anything worthwhile? Probably. But I still do 'try' don't I.I have reached out like this before, always with the same result. Now, they say... that doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result is insanity. Ah, insanity must be a labor of love then!
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reader, anonymous, writes (23 July 2009): Following the quote from your article that KC picked out, I agree that it is very defeatist. You are complaining how other people answer yet you won't even 'try' and let people see from your point of view, because you're assuming they won't see from your point of view?
Are you a christian? As it sounds very righteous to me. Would you consider one christian giving another christian advice based on their experience 'bad' advice aswell? Correct me if you're not religious, but if you are this is also being hypocritcal.
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reader, anonymous, writes (23 July 2009): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionKC Yes you are right of course, most of the responses I was reading in other posts and the leading overall pathos of the day just had me a bit exasperated. My more transcendent types of hope are reserved for one person at a time, and I should try to broaden its base I suppose.
But I am glad others chose to look passed my apparent imperfections and see the point I was trying to make.
Anon, I'm not so much concerned about myself. I have a presence of mind that is already, in my view, pretty solid. I have crystallized into my ways, so very little can sway me when it comes to something I feel true conviction about. What I am concerned about is this indoctrination of doubt that has been levied against us from all angles since birth, and indeed, endeavors to immerse all of us in its murky depths. The result is we have drowned trying to save the drowning. Blind leading the blind. So I suppose..I am feeling concern for these poor impressionable souls getting this advice presented to them like its irrevocable. The dubious centerpiece of modern society, doubt, is in full swing. It even still affects me sometimes, as was so astutely evidenced earlier.
Samantha, no you didn't ramble, you were actually quite concise. Far more so than I, probably. I admire your temperance. It is very true that I do not know your situation, as you do not know mine. I am heartened that you hold such an open view in that regard. But what must be addressed is that a large portion of people that advise present their thoughts as gospel truth. Players advise other men to be players. Atheists advise others to be atheists. Godly men the same. Damaged women advise from a damaged viewpoint. The defeated guide others into being defeated.
Its a self propagating cycle that threatens the overall deterioration of society.
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reader, anonymous, writes (23 July 2009): "I chose to face my pain head on, and am better for it. If I were the type, I would counsel others to do the same, but the fact is that it takes more strength than most people have to do it how I have, so what would be the point."
Aye. And i deem this amoung the most egotistical as it has already been titled defeatist and yes, very hypocritical. You have said, what's the point in telling people to keep trying? They're not as strong as I am. So wouldn't you in term, being giving the same advice as we are?
Also, I beg, leave us in peace as we are volunteers and taking time out of our already employed days to answer these questions. If you want to criticize advice, i praythee criticze a professional, who's getting paid for their what you consider "bad" advice. Truely, they're the peopel who're wasting the subjects' time.. but we? We are the ones whose time is spent. Not vice versa. we do this not for materialistic purposes and prefer not to be looked down upon.
~Sy.
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reader, anonymous, writes (23 July 2009): I do get what you're saying. I think at the end of the day, you have to decide for yourself what to do about your own situation. Other people will give you their opinion if you ask for it, but if you decide to do the opposite of what other's think you should do, then that's fine.I can relate to what you are saying, I was once in a relationship that was very troubled and difficult. Just about everyone around me were telling me to leave, to get out of the situation. They told me I could do better, that he wouldn't change, etc, etc.But I loved this person so much, and I truly believed that we could make it work. So I stayed. I battled on. I tried and tried, I gave it everything I could...and in the end, I had to walk away, because the situation was killing us. Literally. We seemed to cause each other to self-destruct. So my persistence didn't improve the situation at all.I know it could have gone the other way. I could have worked on the relationship, and it oculd have had a better ending. It could have worked out. But it didn't. I had no way of knowing what would happen, and neither did anyone else. And that's my point. No one knows. We all make decisions, and give advice, based on what we think is the best thing to do. And we don't want to see other people suffering, so if we see someone in a situation that is causing them pain, we will be more inclined to encourage them to get out.Like others here have mentioned, our opinions are just that, our own. A person can have 10 answers, telling them to leave a situation. But if they decide to stay, that's fine. I personally wouldn't think less of the person if they chose to do the opposite of what was advised. Nobody can really know the full reality of the situation anyway, unless they themselves are in it. As long as the decision feels right to the individual, then I don't think a wrong one can be made. It's right for them.I hope I'm understanding this correctly and not rambling, by the way! x
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reader, k_c100 +, writes (23 July 2009):
To quote you directly:
"I chose to face my pain head on, and am better for it. If I were the type, I would counsel others to do the same, but the fact is that it takes more strength than most people have to do it how I have, so what would be the point."
That is possibly the most defeatist comment I have ever seen here on Dear Cupid, and therefore I refuse to dignify your post with an answer because I have no time for hypocrites.
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reader, anonymous, writes (23 July 2009): LOL I had been thinking of posting this question but you posted it first!!
I thought I was the only one who noticed. But anyway, everyone has a point. In fairness to our Aunts and Uncles not everyone gives advises to dump a person although generally, they give this advise. I can say it is expected. I will tell you my theory...
I believe most members discovered this website because they needed help during that time of discovery. Well, this was my case. My bf dumped me and I was looking for some advise site. So I can say that most members here at some point in their lives had been "defeated". And a lot of them, including me had recovered..still because of this website.
This is like a website for those who have been hurt or is hurting right now. So its natural for all of us to sound like we have been defeated sometime ago, its not bad, is it? It's up to you anyway if you believe them or not, follow their advise or not.
Secondly, most responses of this site are based on experience anyway, true experiences. It happened to them. It may hurt to hear them respond that way but it is the truth for them. Again, it's all up to us to accept their advise or not.
Thirdly, our Uncles or Aunts are people who posted here not for any commercial purpose so they can say what they like to say and they are frank. Take it or leave it.
Lastly, if we want advises that we want to hear..I think we can find that on websites other than this but I am quite sure it is a commercial one and something quite impersonal.
This is just my opinion.
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reader, anonymous, writes (23 July 2009): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionOk, I will be more specific.
My commentary is more directed at society at large, more so than this site, upon reflection, so don't feel too singled out. Its like fickle is almost encouraged nowadays.
My favorite relationship in life was one that I was constantly counseled by "well meaning" types to cut away from. The same types that don't believe in love, the soul, or God for that matter.
Sure the relationship was tough, and it hurt at times, but when others told me to run, I hung in there. When all hope seemed lost by conventional standards, I stayed faithful. When others said I should storm about and create equal devastation fueled by the power of righteous indignation, I chose to forgive instead.
As a result, I got to spend more time with this person. They came back to me. If I had bolted and opted for another, (as was counseled me in real life AND on this site btw) then that door of opportunity would have closed forever.
You all tell me that the weight of your experience and wisdom makes your advice unassailable, but that's not true. It's merely what you have done, in many cases as avoidance. This is becoming a culture of avoidance. But if you avoid the worst plateaus, you rob yourself of the highest peaks. Then, everything becomes a simulacrum of what you WISH it could be, instead of truth.
I chose to face my pain head on, and am better for it. If I were the type, I would counsel others to do the same, but the fact is that it takes more strength than most people have to do it how I have, so what would be the point.
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reader, anonymous, writes (23 July 2009): Do you mean that a lot of advice seems to be "dump him/her, leave," etc? Maybe.
But from what I have seen, most agony aunts try to encourage people to work through their problems. If somebody is having a problem in a relationship, the usual responses are to talk to the other person, try to work out what is going wrong, try this, and so on. But if all else fails, consider leaving.
I only suggest leaving, or walking away from a situation, if nothing else seems to be working. You can try and try, but if it is getting you nowhere, then how much more are you supposed to give?
I don't see it as a defeatist attitude myself. In fact, I think it takes a lot of strength and courage to realise when to stop, when it's time to let go, when it is necessary to move on.
And I don't see those options as easy ways out. Walking away from a situation that just isn't working can be harder and more painful than staying and struggling on.
That's just how I see it anyway. But I do think you have a point, sometimes things do require work if they are to truly work out. I think it's about knowing when to stay and fight, and when to let go and move on. It can be difficult to know which to do in any given situation.
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reader, anonymous, writes (23 July 2009): When I give advice, I make sure it is as honest as possible and I write what I think will be the best thing for them and who ever else is involved in their problem/situation. I certainly don't feel defeated in any way and I don't advise anyone to give up on something that can't try and be saved first. (I'm assuming here that the answers your referring to are from relationship questions)From what I've seen, a lot of people here give the answers they give because they have learned from experience, so I'm pretty sure they wouldn't advise something that would be seen as being defeated or pessamistic unless they had good reason to. And as Ilovebowsandcherries said, they don't have to take our advice, it is simply our opinion on what we think is best for them. I do think the OP should try and find that out for themselves aswell.
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reader, ilovebowsandcherries +, writes (23 July 2009):
 we just give our honest opinions to people we tell them what we believe is happening and suggest what we think will be best for them to do now.
not all of it is giving up not at all its our points of views that people ask for we just give them the options we don't tell them they HAVE to do this that or the other we merely open new doors.
every one has different opinions whether people or not like it then that's there problem alot of people find it hard to hear the truth or only want to hear what THEY feel is right to do.
but as i've said we all have different opinions it's how the person who asked the question decides to take the opinion who knows maybe they go against it maybe they don't but at the end of the day we're here to help provide an answer if we can and help them see more clearly.
we don't tell them what to do we just open a door to other options.
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reader, anonymous, writes (23 July 2009): Maybe this would have been more appropriate to have been submitted as an article, but I must admit I haven't really much idea what you're talking about.Perhaps you could explain more and give one or two examples of this defeatism? - and submit it as an article.
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