A
female
age
36-40,
anonymous
writes:Why is it an insult to be labeled a feminist now? A true feminist wants equality in every aspect. Why is that so bad? A true feminist never says things like, "the world would be better if women were in charge." A feminist just wants women and men to be equals and not discriminated against due to gender. People almost always use the term as an insult now. I even hear WOMEN claiming they are in no way feminists because the word has such bad connotations, meaning women don't think they should be treated equally. Why do men view that as such a threat that to a woman it's better being labeled a whore or bitch than a feminist? Reply to this Question
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male
reader, Yos  +, writes (19 June 2010):
 Thanks for clarifying. I didn't think you meant that! Only that you've heard people use that as an excuse and that upsets you.
I have heard people use the excuse of 'its our animal nature' (or similar) to justify bad behaviour. Stuff like 'men are programmed to cheat so that makes cheating ok' and so on. Which is a misrepresentation of what the science is telling us.
Twisting philosophy and science to suit corrupt ends has always happened and will no doubt continue. Hitler, for example, was a great proponent of his scientific and philosophical justifications for Nazi doctrine. In the end science is neutral: it's up to humanity to put it to good or evil use.
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reader, anonymous, writes (19 June 2010): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThanks Yos, well-said. I was going to come back and write something almost exactly like what you just said in response, but you did it better. I agree, it's not an excuse and I don't think all men are rapists deep down or anything. Sorry if it sounded like I was calling all men rapists, I didn't mean it like that. I was really tired when I wrote that last bit.
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male
reader, Yos +, writes (19 June 2010):
"...deep down I do believe it's hardwired in there to rape, it just makes me angry that that somehow makes it excusable. "
Fortunately you are very wrong. The fact that something is hardwired into us does not make it excusable. This is one of the common misunderstandings of darwinism that is quite simply: wrong. It's an untruth spread by opponents to the whole theory of evolution in an attempt to upset people and cause arguments (such as this one).
We are also hardwired to kill, cheat, lie and steal. Does the fact that we all have the potential for this within us make it excusable? No. And not so with rape either.
We are conscious animals with the ability to make deliberate choices. We are responsible for our actions. All of them. The fact that we have genes that give us basic impulses does not obviate this personal responsibility. No remotely respected evolutionary scientist would say otherwise.
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male
reader, anonymous, writes (18 June 2010): After fifty plus replies, I think you've answered your own question. Unless I've misunderstood, in your last response you said that deep down you believe all men are hardwired to be rapists - and you clearly consider yourself a dedicated feminist.
...and you wonder why people shy away from being labeled feminists? It's because of people like you.
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reader, anonymous, writes (18 June 2010): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionSorry, I got carried away with the violence thing. I guess deep down I do believe it's hardwired in there to rape, it just makes me angry that that somehow makes it excusable. Even more than that I hate that because of my gender it's directed at me.
Two of my friends were in situations where their step-father would rape and beat them and would do the same to mother. It seems like the mom was in some kind of PTSD trance. She'd slap the daughter when she brought it up and just couldn't seem to snap out of it. I guess it is about breaking up the family unit, one mom would yell and accuse her daughter of trying to destroy the family for not wanting to be raped. Like I said, maybe some stockholm syndrome going.
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female
reader, Miamine  +, writes (18 June 2010):
 mmmm.. ideal world yes.. but we don't live in ideals.. splitting families up are a very big step, here it is possible to work with abuse and change the abuser... in fact one post involving past incest with child and father, ended up with the children forgiving and the mother seeking a divorce... In her case, she had been abused by her father, was taken away by the government, and suffered in government homes. When she found out her husband "may" have abused her daughter as a child, she found the strength to help her children understand, forgive and reclaim their relationship back with the father they loved... The kids are happy, she and her husband have split up, and although it hurts, she could not be with him as it made her feel sick...
The issues arround abuse are grey, they involve people with strange emotions, loyalties and a ton of other things.
We are not talking about me.. me and you.. well.. you know... different it's called.. lol :)
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female
reader, Miamine +, writes (18 June 2010):
Yes.. son's... son's who are men.. and that's why feminism has to also be about men...lol
I WANNA MOVE TO SWEDEN!!!
Breastfeeding... women over here get a breast pump, so that the child still gets breast milk, but the father can be involved..
Feminism isn't only about rights for women, and this is what I mean when I talk about equality.. my focus is mostly on children, and sometimes children can loose out in a male "structured" world.
Domestic Violence must be tackled, because as you say it's the children that suffer most. But to blame women for wanting to forgive and go back, is the wrong way to do it. It's not the woman's fault that a man keeps beating her.. When you have children who love their father, and a man who hits sometimes and buys flowers sometimes, it is a strong woman who can walk away.
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male
reader, Yos +, writes (18 June 2010):
Sweden is probably the most progressively feminist country in the World. There parental leave is 480 days... which can be divided between the mother and father pretty much as they wish. And the Swedish men love it.
What I find particularly interesting about their approach is they've realised that feminism is as much about men as women. It's not a case of just changing women's situations, it's more about renegotiating the social contract between men and women. In their case, the feminist solution was to give men more paternity leave.
I find it absurd that there is no equivalent male word for feminism! This alone tells us something. But there are as many stereotypes and embedded 'scripts' in our culture that tell men to behave in anti-feminist ways as there are scripts that target women and their perception of themselves. (I recommend reading Robert Bly if 'male feminism' is interesting to you, especially Iron John).
Put another way: feminism isn't about women, but rather about both women and men, and how we interact, value, judge and respond to each other.
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female
reader, Miamine +, writes (18 June 2010):
Women also take off more time for pregnancy, child rearing, when their kids get sick, and for kid's activities. (Askoldersis)
You assume that children belong only to women, as if they are part of a woman like her legs and arms. Children should be part of families, and child rearing, child sickness and kid's activities should be shared with the male partner, allowing a woman to get further in her career..
This is why the Feminist highlight the inadaquecy of current child rearing practices. Their suggestions have been noted in Europe. Men now get time after the child is born, they can take time of for sick children and family rearing, it is no longer a question of mothers taking time off, we now have "parental leave", which includes men in child raising.
It is a male dominated world (past and present) but things are changing, it is now not only the mothers responsibility to look after children, and employers (mostly men) must accept this. After all, employers have children too.
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female
reader, Miamine +, writes (18 June 2010):
I think they meant, that dead victims in cases of domestic violence are usually female.. yes, men can be victims of domestic violence, but they very, very, very rarely end up dead or permentaly injured..
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reader, anonymous, writes (18 June 2010): Murder victims are almost always women - ARE YOU MAD?! And don't thinkt hat murderers are more often male, because that is stotally not true at all. Men and women are both equally made up to be capable of such evil.
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female
reader, Miamine +, writes (18 June 2010):
Sailing bye, that's exactly the type of equality that I practice in my life.. Man in the kitchen in boxer shorts (that I wash) women on computer getting stuff for his job.. sharing, loving fun, and not entrapment in outdated social roles that have not place in the 21st century...
PS: Regular massage is necessary for health... :)
On the subject of abuse.. it is a fact that most domestic violence in the home is caused by men.. It is easy to say leave, but untill you understand the type of total destruction of personality and self that goes on, you will never understand the power games and manipulations that go on.
Blaming the victim is no help, the feminist movement are the people who drew attention to domestic violence in the home and set up shelters where women can go.
In the sceniro where you say "it's the woman's fault, or nothing can be done.." you leave another generation of children to repeat the cycle of violence again. Many, many women who are abused have seen abuse in their childhood, and many, many men who abuse have been taught that this is what manhood is...
There is still place for feminism, sweeping it away and saying we women have everything good now, ignores the many tales of suffering that are on this board...
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male
reader, Sailing_bye +, writes (18 June 2010):
 geez talk about a popular subject... well i have no problem paying for meals, opening your doors, and helping you mow the lawn, if you agree to equally help me do my laundry, wash the dishes, and massage me when i'm tired. Is thats the equality women are asking for? were equally helping each other out. ehh i can also be wrong haha
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female
reader, Accountable +, writes (18 June 2010):
 I think its because plenty of feminists have twisted and turned from gender equality, to female superiority. I am proud to say I am a feminist in the sense that I believe in gender equality; but I can understand why feminism has gained negative connotations. For example, take Valerie Solanas' "SCUM Manifesto"; a piece of work that calls for male gendercide, claiming to be for the feminist cause.I also think a lot of women overlook the progress that has been made. We have been granted the same civil liberties as men; often it is women who are guilty of perpetuation gender stereotypes, like its our role to cook and remain domestic, by carrying it on in the home. To an extent I think a lot of women do submit to domestic violence; this is not to say they are to blame, but how can it be argued that you can be abused if you don't consent to be abused? They could make the choice to leave. Certainly in western society, they have the same rights to divorce and autonomy as men - in some areas of the world women can legally be forced into marriage and subjected to marital rape. I have huge sympathy for any women in situations like these, but the fact is, here they CAN leave. Noones saying they deserve it, but theres not much the feminist movement can achieve; here, we have the right to stand up against abuse, if we choose to.
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reader, anonymous, writes (18 June 2010): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionSorry, I phrased that wrong. Most victims of gender or sex related violence are women.Women in domestic violence are choosing to be there? You actually blame the mothers for the children being beaten. Most of the time when a woman is in an abusive relationship she's being emotionally abused too. Many victims while in the situation blame themselves and feel like they deserve the abuse because the abuser has convinced them they are worthless. Some even develop stockholm syndrome. Much of what you've said has placed all the blame for discrimination on women, especially their biology. You almost seem to believe women who are raped or beaten deserve it because of their biology or that they asked for it, or that women deserve a lower salary because having babies costs the company money.
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male
reader, CaringGuy +, writes (18 June 2010):
Actually OP, statistically men aged between 18 and 24 are the most likely to victims of violence. Not women. And that group is then followed by men between the ages of 40-49. The majority of violence is in fact committed by men against other men. It is not men against woman, nor women against women. That's a distortion. It is true that sexual violence is more towards women, however. But you have come upon another distortion. Not all men use woman for sex. In fact, the vast majority don't. There are lots of guys who don't use woman. Nor do they just finish and then let the woman sit there. There are a lot of men who are into their partners. That's just another distortion. If it was true, then every man on earth would be single and every woman would be as well. Domestic violence happens to one in four women, and one in ten men. But the rate for women is dropping, while the rate for men is getting higher, meaning that wives are hitting their husbands a bit more, while men are doing it a bit less. And in terms of careers, Ask OlderSister has a great point about women being their own worst enemy. I've heard women moaning about their own female boss. Check your facts. Men aren't all that bad, and we're getting better. But in some areas, woman are getting just a little worse.
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male
reader, anonymous, writes (18 June 2010): OP, now you're just talking out of your ass. Murder victims are almost always women? Violence is almost always directed against women? Try again.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=92
From that website (the Bureau of Justice Statistics):
"In 2008 males experienced higher victimization rates than females for all types of violent crime except rape/sexual assault ... according to the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports, most murder victims were male, 78% in 2007."
Next time look at the facts before you spew your agenda-driven nonsense.
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reader, anonymous, writes (17 June 2010): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionOh and one more thing, murder victims are almost always women, domestic violence is almost always against women, and obviously most rape is against women. In general, violence is directed towards women.
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reader, anonymous, writes (17 June 2010): This is verified as being by the original poster of the question"Why do you ladies think you should be equal?"
I talk more about equality in terms of broad things, not so much in the way that if a man can do it, I can do it too! Like, men can pee off a cliff. I don't want to strive to do that.
Women should have equal respect in the workforce. As is, women are paid less for many of the same jobs men do. Women are frequently discriminated against in positions of power. There are very few women CEOs and women who are charge of companies. We still have not had a woman president or vice president, and when Hillary ran I frequently heard people accusing her of being too much of a bitch or not feminine enough rather than talking about her politics or people who were willing to vote for her just because she's a woman, again ignoring her politics.
There's also the matter of sexual equality. Frequently when talking about sex, men will try to sleep with women as conquests and use them basically as sex toys without regard to her feelings. Sometimes women's orgasms are viewed as just a perk. If the man always finishes, shouldn't the woman be given the same opportunity? Just because her sexuality is different and at times more difficult/complicated doesn't mean it should be ignored. Also, we can't really talk about gender equality without mentioning rape. Rape is definitely one area where men dominate and hurt women based on gender. I'd hope that at some time in the future women wouldn't be viewed as the submissive thing to be dominated and penetrated for power. Before you debate this a lot, think about most porn. Most porn is where the woman is basically a cum dumpster and most porn (I'm talking mainstream here) shows the man dominating to woman and humiliating her in some form. People have written whole books on this, so I'm not going to get too into it. But especially sexually women have a LONG way to go. So when I say equality, I mean that women would be viewed as equals in the workplace and sexually.
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reader, anonymous, writes (17 June 2010): Unfortunatley, I have found that most feminists are not about "equal rights." When I watch the actions of most its really about "Im just burned up that Im not a man."
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male
reader, Kama  +, writes (17 June 2010):
 It's now an insult because people don't read, and they follow, like a herd of cattle, what popular western culture provides for them, which at the present time is a load of crap about the backlash of feminism, etc. People don't read. I am a feminist; it is an honor.
To quote a rather respected source on the topic:
"People have tirelessly sought to prove that woman is superior, inferior, or equal to man. Some say that, having been created after Adam, she is evidently a secondary being: others say on the contrary that Adam was only a rough draft and that God succeeded in producing the human being in perfection when He created Eve. Woman’s brain is smaller; yes, but it is relatively larger. Christ was made a man; yes, but perhaps for his greater humility. Each argument at once suggests its opposite, and both are often fallacious. If we are to gain understanding, we must get out of these ruts; we must discard the vague notions of superiority, inferiority, equality which have hitherto corrupted every discussion of the subject and start afresh."
- Simone De Beauvoir, "The Second Sex." 1949
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male
reader, anonymous, writes (17 June 2010): Simple. Because there are "feminists" like Andrea Dworkin, who claimed that all heterosexual sex is rape (and therefore all men are potential rapists), and Catherine Comins, who told a Time interviewer back in the early 1990s that men could benefit from being falsely accused of rape.
I don't have any problem with the idea of equality, but I am wary of a movement that claims women like Dworkin and Comins as its members; and with theories like theirs, can you really blame me?
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reader, anonymous, writes (17 June 2010): im a feminist and proud!! thats now how it is where i'm from, maybe its a thing of where you're from.
don't let people put you down if you want to be one. they're complete dicks if they're opposed to the idea. some men cant handle the idea of not being top dog.
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male
reader, anonymous, writes (17 June 2010): I agree that the extreme portion of feminists have done a lot to ruin the term for everyone else.
Their views & causes seem to have crossed over from pro-female to anti-male a long time ago. They're an extremist group just like any other. They blame a certain other group (men) for everything about the world that they are dissatisfied with, regardless of how illogical some of those blames might be.
These days I think men need more help than women do overall. This idea makes some people furious at the thought but just look at the raw numbers. We're ahead in a few areas and falling far behing a whole lot of others.
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male
reader, CaringGuy +, writes (17 June 2010):
Interesting. Thanks OlderSister. You know that's the first time the whole idea of feminism has actually been explained? No one ever before has actually explained what it is that women actually want from all this. All I've ever heard is that the 'feminists' want to prove they can do anything men can, or that they want to stop men from actually being masculine and all that. The feminist movement happened, but it was never properly explain so has been misunderstood because either some men have felt threatened, or some women have really taken it to new levels. And that's why the word 'feminist' is always seen as bad. No one really knows what it means.
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female
reader, Miamine +, writes (17 June 2010):
Oh, so you think they should be superior maybe? (wink)
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male
reader, CaringGuy +, writes (17 June 2010):
This is a good topic actually. And perhaps there is an answer. I have an interesting question for the women who are answering this. There is a reason with it, so bear with me. I'm hoping for some good answers, rather than ones suggesting I'm sexist, because I had an idea why feminism is seen as bad.
Why do you ladies think you should be equal?
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female
reader, Miamine +, writes (17 June 2010):
Actually Yos, was thinking of you as a male feminist..
And yes your totally right in what you say... but it's just easier to sum it up as more equality.. even if it dosen't really explain things.
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male
reader, Yos +, writes (17 June 2010):
I'm a man. I consider myself a feminist, and would see it as a compliment if someone labelled me as such.
I believe most women who are anti-feminism don't really understand what feminism is. It has acquired some negative associations. But then feminism is often misunderstood.
It's not the view that women should be equal, although most feminists also support this. Rather, it's the idea that society has been male dominated for so long that this patriarchal perspective has literally been 'baked' into our culture. The words we use and have available to us, the morality we subscribe to, our entire frame of reference; is skewed by this history.
Fortunately this is changing.
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (17 June 2010): Men have been very clever for turning the word feminist into an insult and the simple fact is things are not equal between us and it is men that do it and women who do not help the cause at all in fear of hurting men.
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male
reader, Sailing_bye +, writes (17 June 2010):
"And men will never be able to tolerate being led by a women. Ever."
I hope that's not true! :( --------False. Men are willing to be led by those that can lead. races, genders, creatures, aliens and women don't matter. =)
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female
reader, Miamine +, writes (17 June 2010):
We had Margaret Thatcher as a prime minster... yep, men can be led, and when she couldn't lead them, then she done them in... lol
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reader, anonymous, writes (17 June 2010): Maybe you were being too abrasive and unnecessary with your comments.
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reader, anonymous, writes (17 June 2010): This is verified as being by the original poster of the question"And men will never be able to tolerate being led by a women. Ever."
I hope that's not true! :(
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reader, anonymous, writes (17 June 2010): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionNothing in particular, just a bunch of things in general. I was just reading a book and there was like, a sentence on it and then I realized it's true that when asked a lot of girls go "well I'm not feminist." I was reading around online and it's just used SO commonly as an insult, usually by guys who are at the same time hating on women but sometimes by women being cruel to other women. The theme was it was ALWAYS negative. I was just wondering when wanting equal women's rights became such a horrible thing. It seems some men feel it's a threat to being masculine. Not a threat to men, but a threat to what's viewed as "manly" to not dominate women anymore. It seems like that's an important part of becoming a man, learning to dominate others, especially women. There have been a lot of books and such written on that. It seems women don't want that label now because it's constantly viewed as so man-hating that they worry about guys liking them (a valid concern seeing as I've heard of women being broken up with over being too feminist).
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female
reader, xXferalxallureXx +, writes (17 June 2010):
 feminist represent a different view on the world. it sukz that they are shown in a negative way like bra burning men hating women, but this is a man's world. Women have been brainwashed into believing we are limited because of our femininity, and that all we are really good for is child rearing, sex, and looking good. (all are true, but that's not all we can do.)
And men will never be able to tolerate being led by a women. Ever.
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reader, anonymous, writes (17 June 2010): This is verified as being by the original poster of the question"Men can be feminist too, and to tell the truth, I meet more male feminist now adays than I meet females.."
Same. It makes me so sad that now if anyone so much as brings up a typically feminist issue, like unequal pay they are immediately tagged as man-hating.
"Unfortunately the other side has won."
I hate that we live in a patriarchy (we do. We really do) and the only thing I can do to change it is to be labeled a man-hater and alienate people.
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female
reader, Gabrielle Stoker +, writes (17 June 2010):
 A lot of self-labelled 'feminists' queered the pitch for women's rights in general by being complete idiots. It left so many negative connotations to the term 'feminist" that even sensible women nowadays would rather not be termed that. It's kind of a disservice out forbears did to us.
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female
reader, Miamine +, writes (17 June 2010):
Equality.. each according to their means... dosen't mean the same as women turning into men... of course we are different from men, but why does that mean that I can't be president...
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female
reader, xanthic +, writes (17 June 2010):
 I blame it on ignorance and fear. Most people these days think of feminists as bra-burning man haters, which is the complete opposite of the truth.
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female
reader, Miamine +, writes (17 June 2010):
"A true feminist wants equality in every aspect"
Yes for men and for women..
It's a real pity that feminism has been lefted in such a mess. There are still real battles to fight over unfair pay, childcare, looking after the elderly, domestic violence and rape...sigh, we've come so far, but so much to do.
Unfortunately the other side has won. The have linked feminism with "man hating woman".. The celebrity and fame focus we have has done the rest.. Who wants to be a feminist, they dress bad.. nope, instead girls want to shave their pubic hair, get false breast, do anything to please a man, and spend all their time shopping rather than thinking and getting passionate about real things...
Pity really.. real big shame...
PS: Men can be feminist too, and to tell the truth, I meet more male feminist now adays than I meet females..
Pity really.. real big shame..
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (17 June 2010): feminist I feel are strong influential women not to be labled derogatively, but they typically are strongly opinionated women who fight for equality which, in turn, causes issues.
Why?
Because femanist are seen as somewhat of a socal radical group, enforcing their views verbally, socially on society which always causes issues because ppl never respond well to powerful action.( not in a physical harm sense, but like feminist take action to fight for equality.)
Ppl typically react by labeling groups such as those like feminist in a bad manner because its a sudden idea for change. We all know how ppl react to change, usually pushing it aside or couter acting it. (violence against civil rights ppl as an example.)
But dnt feel so put off by society because what your doing is a great thing. Like nature, however, great things take time to manifest in the world...
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