A
female
age
36-40,
*onesome101
writes:Ok, so I'm just wondering... I have seen A LOT of posts involving opposite sex friendships... and I have seen A LOT of answers that claim guys and girls can't be friends ... my question is this: films aside, where has this ridiculous idea come from? In my experience, it is nonsense. My best friend in the world is a man. He is married and I am not friends with his wife. When we meet up, it is almost always just the two of us. We have known each other for years, and have been particularly close for two of them. He has never tried it on, and neither have I. I feel completely comfortable with him and like I can tell him anything... you know... like a normal friendship. Why the hell does everyone think this is not possible? It clearly is...
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female
reader, So_Very_Confused  +, writes (27 February 2013):
 ya know they all make GREAT points...
why in the world if you are his BEST friend do you not know his wife or do things together with them?
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reader, anonymous, writes (27 February 2013): "I do not know if she knows who I am or not."
Your best friend hasn't told you that "minor" detail? I thought you were as close as you can get to another person.
OP no one is judging your friendship, you choose to take the path of "ignorance is bliss" go ahead. But no one as eloquent in her writing and the style of her prose as you are, is foolish enough to not see there is something seriously odd about how apart from his wife he has you. Come on that is odd, surely you got know your partner's friends, especially his/her closest advisor.
You don't see how relevant it is? Because you don't want it to be, you don't actually know whether he's conducting himself well as regards her or not. You don't have a best friend and a wife, the two most important non-blood relationships in your life for years, without them ever seeing each other and without the best friend even knowing whether his wife even knows he has a female friend he spends all his free time with. Sure it may all be innocent and exactly how you hope but it's a damn odd situation OP.
When my best friend got together with his most recent girlfriend I wanted to get to know this new, awesome love of his life. Your best friend doesn't even talk about his, you know nothing about what she knows. That's nuts to me.
OP how is it rocking the boat to enquire about her, he's your best friend isn't he? A guy you can talk to about anything? not a very solid friendship if you can't even discuss the other most important person in his life.
Sorry OP, I don't want to come off the wrong way at all, just find it hard to get my head around your friendship, it's just a little odd and gets even more odd the more info you add. I have no doubt it's a great friendship, I have no doubt it'll probably continue to be and nothing will happen that ruins or violates that. I just find it strange it's being conducted with the same distance from his wife as a man and his mistress, you don't even know why that is and you're even scared of asking about her.
How it has never come up in all the years you've known him to actually meet the love of his life is just a bit odd. but as you said I can only see things through my eyes and how I've lived my life. My best friend and fiancée are the two people who know me best in the world, I honestly think it would take a hell of a lot of work to keep them separated, to never talk about my fiancée to my best friend in the years I've been with her is a very alien concept to me. He's the one I turn to when I need advice on my relationship, her best friend is who I turn to to get info on why she may be in a bad mood lately and such things. I don't get why a man would go to such lengths to keep the two separate.
Why he would keep you in this neat little box where you don't associate with any of his other friends or his wife.
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male
reader, anon_e_mouse +, writes (27 February 2013):
 Very well put So_Very_Confused!
And a great way of handling telling your man you've been texting your ex with minimum fuss too.
If more women knew how to do this (and men too) relationships would be a lot easier.
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female
reader, So_Very_Confused +, writes (27 February 2013):
OP, anything that you can't won't or don't tell your partner is lying in my book
I trust my husband implicitly. He trusts me.
Just last week jokingly I said "in the spirit of total honesty you should know i was texting with my ex husband today." My husband laughed... he knows there's nothing going on... but If I had not said something and next week he grabbed my phone to do something (I have a smart phone he does not so he uses mine sometimes) and saw recent texts from my ex he would ask... and then I would tell him... NBD for us.
IF I found out from him later on down the road that he has a close female friend that he spent time with without telling me, I'd be concerned that there was a reason he did not share this with me. We share everything. And I think that if you feel you can't tell your spouse about someone or something, there is a reason for it.
LIES of OMISSION are still lies..
if he goes out at night with you and says to his wife "I'm going out with a friend" and she ASSUMES it's a guy...are you ok with that? If she asks "who" and he says "someone you do not know" are you ok with that?
I can't believe that you truly are ok being a dirty little secret and not seeing how this could potentially be harmful to his marriage.
what if HE thinks it's ok to keep a secret and she does not?
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male
reader, anon_e_mouse +, writes (27 February 2013):
The fact is YOU DO NOT KNOW HIS WIFE. You do not meet her, talk to her or have any relationship at all with her. This is your best friend in the whole World's wife we're talking about.
This scenario is ridiculous and the fact you continue to argue this is a "normal" friendship is just plain stupid.
How do you know if his wife knows you go out together alone? You DON'T. So to say, if you knew he was actively lying you'd do something about it is equally as ridiculous. You've known him how long? And this question have never even entered your mind?
Bored with this silly post now. If you're too stupid to see this is NOT a fine example of how a man and woman can be friends there's nothing more to say really.
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female
reader, lonesome101 +, writes (27 February 2013):
lonesome101 is verified as being by the original poster of the question Ok guys, thanks for your responses... although I have to say, I was not in any way insecure about my friend! I trust him implicitly and he has given me a great deal of support that really couldn't have done without. Is friendship not built on trust? Is not the very nature of trust that one does not need to ask? I will continue to trust my friend, as he has given me no reason not to. On the subject of the spouse, I have said it many times, I do not know if she knows who I am or not. Given that nothing has ever happened, I don't see that it matters. Also, I think it is quite idiotic that one should have to share everything with their partner lest it be considered untoward; what nonsense! Again, I thought romantic relationships were also based on trust... I can't see what he has done to break her trust. If he has lied about where he is going when we meet... well that is something else, and I would pull him up on it if I found that to be the case, but again, I don't know! If he does not lie, however, then what is the problem? I believe individuals have the right to privacy, even from one's spouse, unless of course it involves them, but in this case it doesn't! As I said, he has never done or said anything that is inappropriate or crosses the line of friendship. I have a clear conscience, so why would I rock the boat by asking what is ultimately a loaded question? Were he to express any underlying desire, I would take the appropriate course of action, but I don't see why I need to create problems for myself before they have arisen! We have met up on a one on one basis since we became friends. I guess that is kind of odd, but I did not pertain to be 'normal'! I hate that I am defending what I truly believe to be a great platonic friendship ('the lady doth protest too much' I hear you all cry), as I did not, and never have, felt the need to defend this! On the subject of 'why do people think men and women can't be friends'... I think the answer is clear. The majority of people seem to subscribe to the theory of biological determinism and as such, put far too much emphasis on the sexual organs of a human being... Funny... I always thought friendship was about personality, shared interests, or a spark of sub/unconscious recognition... not what is one's pants. I am saddened by the exclusion of the LGBTQ* experience as a world view... although it is not unusual for heteronormativity to stifle this sort of discussion. I'd just like to add, if I discovered that he is actively lying to his wife about me, I would address that, and I thank people for suggestions as to how to do this. I suppose it could be seen as a little naive that it didn't cross my mind... Crazy as you may think me, I guess I just trust my best friend.
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female
reader, So_Very_Confused +, writes (27 February 2013):
Op I have read your follow up and i have to agree if you don't know his wife and do not know if he is hiding your friendship from him, then you can't use your friendship with him as an example.
I think men and women can be friends... I do not think that they can be best friends unless one or both of them are homosexual for various reasons. The things I talk to my best friend about are not things I would talk to most men about... I would take my best girlfriend shopping for bras (and have done so with a friend and her husband (oh he had fun)) but I can't imagine going clothes/underwear shopping with a straight guy who I was NOT sleeping with.
I am happily married. My best guy friend... he's young enough to be my son, he's also happily married. We were friends before he married and even before i knew my now husband.... I know his wife. She knows me. We get along but HE's my friend not her. My husband knows I'm friends with him.
This friend and I go out to lunch alone at work a couple of times a month. We text... we facebook... I have no desire to sleep with him and he has none with me... I have often said I would adopt him if he didn't have a great mom... I've even emailed his mom thanking her for raising such a nice kid...
I cannot see a married person keeping a friend a secret from their spouse... if they do then the entire friendship to me on the part of the married person is suspect. if there is no reason for them to keep it a secret why do they? are the friends of the same sex kept a secret?
see... something is wrong somewhere if the opposite sex friend is not known to the partner.....
If two single people who are both straight are friends then it only works if NEITHER of them has ANY attraction to the other.... because if there is sexual tension due to one person settling for being friends when they want more, then it's not a true friendship.... it's accepting what crumbs you can have.
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female
reader, Honeypie +, writes (27 February 2013):
 I don't think it's impossible at all.
I just think some people just don't THINK before they become emotionally attracted to a friend of the opposite sex.
Often you get the complications when you people are added to the mix (as in new bf/gf) who may not totally GET the friendship.
I have always had more male friends then female. For me, men are just easier to be around. And I have never dated or slept with a male friend, no matter how attractive they are. My best male friend started dating my best female friend and now 20 years later they are still together.
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reader, anonymous, writes (27 February 2013): "I really don't get why a little sexual tension/attraction makes friendship impossible."
Nobody said it's impossible OP, but there is an added dimension to that if there's sexual tension. That's not a pure friendship then, there's a sexual gratification there, albeit extremely slight, it is there.
I mean come on, would you really be okay with your partner having an attraction and sexual tension with their "best friend"? One who they won't let you get to know and spend a hell of a lot of time with one on one? No, and if that's the case with you and this guy then the reason he's keeping his wife away from you is because he wants to be able to keep that sexual tension and/or he knows how it will look to see you and he together, I bet you money that if she's around he will act awkward and closed off to you, I'd give you my house if I'm wrong. You really see nothing weird in the fact that two most important people in his life are kept so separate?
You didn't ask for your friendship to be judged but you did give us enough information that makes your friendship seem like a bit more than just friends OP.
It's not just about studies, I'm mid-30's this is how I've experienced life and seen happen to others, some of my closest friends are female, I've slept with nearly all of them, the ones I haven't slept with is because I met them while with my fiancée and there is no sexual tension because I'm not close to them in that way, that closeness is reserved for my fiancée, she's my best female friend and there would be a big problem if I was doing what your friend is doing. Big, big problem because we both know what that means. OP she's a psychologist who specializes in sexual relationships and specifically sexual predation. She's done some of the studies on this phenomenon. When you do an anonymous survey of the 30-40 age group with 1500 people, you get a fairly reliable picture of what actually happens and the majority of male/female friendships involves attraction, most of the time it's the guy with attraction, women can handle those kind of relationships better, when there's an attraction feelings very often develop and where there are feelings a relationship can too. That's exactly how me and my fiancée got to together.
That's why you rarely hear of a teen girl saying she's been stuck in the friendzone, mainly just boys.
It's not impossible, of course men and women can be friends, but only someone very naive would think it's a pure friendship with no sexual element or attraction and that's not what we call friendships, I have no attraction nor any sexual tension with any of my close male friends. They're purely friendship. I have no romantic feelings for or any kind of sexual tension with any of my female friends because I'm spoken for and I ensure I don't allow that level of closeness or affection. While I may meet them one on one for coffee the odd time, I mostly associate them with my fiancée as a couple. It's just good grace to include her that way and she loves having an ally in which to gang up on me anyway so it's awesome.
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female
reader, CindyCares  +, writes (27 February 2013):
 To each his own, but personally I think that sexual attraction/tension and true ,unadultered friendship don't mix that well. I have had and have several male friends, in fact at times I wonder if I don't get along more easily with men than with women. But these friends ( I mean good friends, not just social acquaintances ) are the kind of guys that I could never ever see myself being intimate with in a million years , ( and I suppose, as unflattering it is for me :) , that they must reciprocate my un-attraction, otherways we would not be friends but something more ).
Why ? Well, to me it seems self evident . A friend is someone who " gets " you , who understands you, whom you get along with and you have fun being with.... it is a like a lover but without the romantic / sexual feelings.
Add the sexual feelings, and they'll become FWBs ,lovers or boyfriend if you act upon the feelings , or your secret crush if you don't. So, everything but just a friend.
Pardon me , but I find curious too that you and this man are such good friends, yet you don't even know his wife. After all , his wife is a big part of his life, or at least, his family. I know the families of all my close friends ( males or females ) ,... you don't ?....
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female
reader, YouWish +, writes (27 February 2013):
 You don't know if his wife knows??
You can't argue the validity of opposite sex friendships using yours as an example if yours is missing the most vital of components -- that being a fully informed and happily consenting spouse.
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (27 February 2013): I believed this until about 4 months ago!! I had been friends for 8 years with a wonderful man. He always introduced me to his girlfriends and he met and got on with my fiancée. We even had the conversation about men and women just being friends and said we believed they could be, no questions asked. 8 years down the line and we both find ourselves single, then feelings developed that were more than just friendship. We now are in the most loving, committed relationship I could imagine! Plus it had a fantastic basis as we knew eachother so well before we got together, no secrets, nothing hidden. Don't get me wrong I'm sure men and women can be just friends but 99% of the time one or both will develop feelings eventually which, even if you remain friends, will change the basis of the friendship.
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female
reader, lonesome101 +, writes (27 February 2013):
lonesome101 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionWow! What a lot of responses. I have to say... I didn't ask for any judgments on my own friendship... I used it as an example, but it is interesting to see what people think... I am offended that people think we are 'hiding', as, at least from my point of view, there is no 'hiding' involved. We just have a very one on one kind of friendship. We have been friends for YEARS and it has always been like this. I have to say... I don't know if his wife knows... I didn't think to ask. Maybe I should? As regards the various studies... well, not only can statistics be easily manipulated to form a certain kind of data, but I really don't get why a little sexual tension/attraction makes friendship impossible. As a bisexual woman, I have been attracted to my male and female friends through my life (I have never made a move on any of them). Am I to understand that as one attracted to men and women, I shouldn't have ANY friends at all lest there be some sexual tension?! To me that is crazy!
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male
reader, anon_e_mouse +, writes (27 February 2013):
Cerberus: "Oh just to add, those studies that male anon referred to? They all state that the vast majority of the time the guy is the one with attraction and feelings"
The MAJORITY of the time. NOT ALL the time. I have female friends I'm not interested in (and I'm single by the way) but I know they're interested in me. A couple have boyfriends and I just go out with them AND their boyfriends and DO NOT make a move on any of them at all. I'm not available to them romantically but I'd go for a drink with them and their boyfriends/friends/family. Never with them ALONE though.
If this guy is your best friend then why aren't you friends with his wife? My best friends have a rather large chunk of my life and I would introduce them to family, girlfriend/wife and they could all be friends.
My best mates became my girlfriends friends too (until we split up). They were OUR friends. Her best friends became my friends too.
Strange that you're his best friend yet don't even know his own wife. And I agree with some here who say, his wife is probably not even aware of your "meet ups". I would put money on the fact she would not be very happy if she did know.
This is why it doesn't work. Great for you, you have a guy who acts like your boyfriend but isn't. He can make you feel good by stroking your ego. In the meantime he is likely, in this case, wanting more. You are only one half of this best of friendships so how can you comment on his side of the story, which he'd likely NEVER admit to anyway?
Men and women are programmed differently.
Cerberus has it down in his first post here. Read that again and again.
I just can't see if you two are such great friends and it is totally plutonic why you don't get involved in his life (socialising with him AND his wife, going out together, popping round for tea/dinner) rather than just the two of you ALONE where you can play at being boyfriend/girlfriend.
By the way, one last point, my Grandad and Dad had a great natural understanding of ladies and they told me "when a girl says to you you're her best friend, she loves you".
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female
reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (27 February 2013):
 Your best friend in the entire world and you are not friendly with his wife? Hm. So you don't like his wife?
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male
reader, anon_e_mouse +, writes (26 February 2013):
SImply put its because one of the friends is attracted to the other. So if you're not attracted to your friend chances are he's attracted to you.
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reader, anonymous, writes (26 February 2013): Oh just to add, those studies that male anon referred to? They all state that the vast majority of the time the guy is the one with attraction and feelings.
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reader, anonymous, writes (26 February 2013): Of course they can, most of my close friends are female. I've slept with almost all of them though over the years. Because with most of them there was an attraction there at some point in time. Being very close to a woman is a very similar emotion as romance OP, feelings can develop from that bond very easily, especially if there is physical affection like cuddling involved.
You know what's funny OP, for someone who claims to be "just friends" sounds like you work hard to make sure the wife isn't included, in fact it sounds like it's just the two of you and you prefer to be alone without an actual social group. You really can't see how people would be suspicious of that?
My fiancée's best friend is almost like my best friend at this stage I see her so often, especially now that she has a new boyfriend and insists on doing the double date thing. Mine is living in another city now but even he knows my fiancée very well, when he invites me places he invites 'us' places unless he needs a wingman for pulling or to go watch some football.
OP forgive me but I get a sense of "if I say it enough times and loud enough, it'll be true" from your post. A sense of denial almost. I'm not accusing you of anything nor questioning your intent, but you seem to be going to great pains to convince someone that this really is a "normal friendship" as you say, maybe even convince yourself. But to me a normal friendship isn't just me meeting up with one person all the time to be alone with them. Add in some play fighting, a bit of "harmless" flirting/dirty jokes and some cuddles or lingering hugs and that's not what I'd call a normal friendship, that's pretty much dating. Trust me, that's how I've always loved to have my female friendships when single, push it right to the line and see how close we can get before it gets "dangerous".
It's not that men and women can't have close friendships, they can. But very often the line is crossed when you didn't even realize it. Very often the feelings are there, you just ignored them, and very often you've moved into territory that encroaches upon their romantic relationships.
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reader, YouWish +, writes (26 February 2013):
Of course it's possible, but it's the exception, not the norm. All too often, what starts as platonic ends with one or both people developing feelings for each other. What happens then?
If his wife is okay with you in his life, then it works. If you two are having conversations that aren't disloyal to his parents, then it works. If you both don't have a romantic past, or one of you has had or have ever had feelings for each other, then it works.
Like I said, true platonic relationships are rare, but not impossible. If yours is working and everyone's fine with it, then that's fine. All too often, what starts out that way gets complicated. All too often, the spouse who wants the friendship doesn't disclose the romantic history or secret crush. It's not platonic when one or both want it to be more and simply doesn't cross the line.
Guys and girls can be friends, but it's rare. In marriages, it takes understanding from all parties.
My husband has a really good female friend from work, and though we aren't personally friends, I like her a lot and don't mind one bit his friendship with her. I trust him, and she's good for him in my opinion.
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female
reader, janniepeg  +, writes (26 February 2013):
 I think opposite sex friendship is okay as long as they have no sexual feelings for each other, in the past or present. They respect that their spouses are their priority. They also are comfortable with their lives and have no need for attention and ego boosts. They have great respect for the opposite sex and they treat people the way they want to be treated.
A lot of people are not like you and your friend. People come on this site with issues that you never have.
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male
reader, anonymous, writes (26 February 2013): Sounds to me like your "friend" is having an emotional affair with you? Surely, his wife doesn't know if you're not even friends. Lol you just answered your own question. And that's why is never works.
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reader, anonymous, writes (26 February 2013): It is not made up. There have been multiple studies done on this exact topic. The problem is, because of they way men and women have evolved, they are programed differently, and desire different qualities in a friendship. There cannot be a platonic male and female relationship without one partner (or both) secretly hoping that the friendship becomes sexual. Based of what little you have said, I GUARANTEE this man's wife does not know about your "meet ups" no matter how innocent they are, or the depth of your "friendship". He must be VERY close to his wife if he has s such a great 'friend', whom she isn't friends with herself ...
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