A
male
age
41-50,
anonymous
writes:I found out my wife lied to me about how many guys she slept with before me. When the topic first came up when we were dating she told me there was three. I had a very hard time with this because i felt very insecure about myself. At that point i started going to therapy because it was bothering me so much. She knew at the time how much it bothered me and thought therapy was a great idea. Now, three years later, we are just married a month, moving into our house together and she finds an old diary with which there was a story about a guy she hooked up with. She read her diary to me. I said you never told me about him. She first said she forgot. I didn't believe her. I said i think there is more. She swore there wasn't!!!! I still didn't believe her. 1/2 hour later she told me there was one more. I was so hurt. We talked and talked. For some reason i still didn't believe her but she said that was it. The next morning i told her i can't do this. I think she is lying. She then told me there was two more! What do i do at this point. I can't believe her. She knew how important it was for me to know this, i was in therapy for it. She lied to my face in our new house. I believe i have a right to know her past. Especially since we felt we trusted each other to marry. What do i do?????? Please, it's eating me up inside!!!
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male
reader, anonymous, writes (2 May 2010): "You don't have the right to know."Bullshit. When you have sex with someone then you are risking STDs and having children with them. That is not a minor thing. It's not acceptable to put others at more risk of diseases (and potential emotional problems if the relationship gets serious) than they wish to expose themselves to. The Almightly Right to Have Casual Sex Without Any Consequences does not override your partner's right to try to protect themselves from the health problems that casual sex can bring.If you dont want to tell your partner about your past then fine. TELL THEM that you're not going to tell them, and they can make up their own mind about the risk of screwing you. But this "it's okay to lie" stuff is bullshit.
A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (30 April 2010): The subject heading for this question says it all. No, you don't actually have a right to know. Suck it up, dude.
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A
female
reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (28 April 2010):
 May I just point out that it's not the men who have to undergo a surgical procedure. They're not the ones expected to rupture a membrane and bleed to satisfy cultural expectations. Men don't have their penises removed or an orifice sewn shut in order to prevent sexual stimulation or intercourse.
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A
female
reader, b1990o +, writes (28 April 2010):
 i think you should leave the past behind you. it isnt fair to to her, this all happened before you were ever together. she knew you would react like this, which is why she didnt tell you sooner. I think what you need to focus on more is what youre feeling so insecure about. she obviously doesnt want these other men.. she chose you for a reason. she cant change her past, and if anything she chose to not be in a relationship with those men yet wanted to be with you. I think the only thing that needs working on is that you need to relax a little more, and gain some confidence in yourself- there's nothing sexier than that ;)
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A
male
reader, Yos  +, writes (28 April 2010):
 I write here almost only on this subject. I experienced extreme retroactive jealousy myself a while back, and found very little helpful information about. So now I'm trying to do my bit to provide some.
Nietzsche was an extreme sexist and racist. And a cynic. He viewed religion and morality as a form of control. Which is partly true I think.
This article from the BBC today demonstrates: how far men are willing to use morality as leverage to control women and their sexuality. And partly how far men are willing to go to avoid the negative emotions of retroactive jealousy. It's talking about 're-virginisation' of women in the Middle East:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8641099.stm
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A
male
reader, Yos +, writes (27 April 2010):
Quoting Nietzsche on women probably isn't so wise ;)
But yes, this is probably really horrible for his wife. Nobody wins with retroactive jealousy.
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A
male
reader, Yos +, writes (27 April 2010):
"Women please wake up and dump guys who ask you to sign on paper how many guys you have slept with"
I'd never ever normally suggest something like this. But in this particular case they are married, and she has knowingly lied repeatedly. It seems one way to draw a line under it... ie that she has given her definitive answer and then they can move on.
As I said, the best approach for most people is probably not to ask in the first place. But then if asked, to tell the truth. But sadly this didn't happen.
And as I said, unless this has happened to you, you'll likely see this unsympathetically as highly controlling behaviour. But that's not the case. He's been to therapy: he's clearly owned his part of the situation and has tried to do something to get over it.
Please don't judge something like this unless you understand it.
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A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (27 April 2010): I am relieved to know that Q's answer got published.Women please wake up and dump guys who ask you to sign on paper how many guys you have slept with.I hope to God someone doesn't block this answer of mine.We all are entitled to our own views.
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A
female
reader, Honeypie +, writes (27 April 2010):
 Unfortunately people lie. Some more then others. Women of a "certain" age lies about their age, weight, cup size, men about their height, penis size and what kind of car they drive. (generalization)
Why did your wife lie? Maybe because she wasn't happy with the number of guys she slept with? Maybe she was afraid of how you would react to the "real" number of sexual partners. It isn't rational but she might have lied to protect your feelings. Instead she made it worse.
Maybe you can take the time to calmly explain to her WHY it is so important that you know the exact number, but mostly I would explain the fact that lying don't belong in a marriage.
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A
male
reader, metalsman  +, writes (27 April 2010):
 I totally agree with the anonymous poster's comments below.
Yos, I've read pretty much everything you and TTM have written on this issue which blinds common sense and rational emotional states. It's a subject matter in it's own right and I fervently believe that it ought to form a specific agenda for psychology to explore deeper.
This particular posting ranks highly (in my opinion) as one of very genuine help and guidance for the OP, I commend you on your thought patterns and patience to explain in some detail here.
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (27 April 2010): Yos. Don't ever leave this website. It needs you to keep meticulously explaining this difficult subject that tortures and hurts so many people, damaging and destroying so many relationships in its process. Keep up the good work.
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A
male
reader, Yos +, writes (27 April 2010):
"I don't understand why so many people get so angry and upset about their spouses past? it is in the past, therefore it doesn't matter anymore."
I don't mean to single you out rambini, but your answer sums up how this question typically gets answered here. Typically but unsuccessfully I'm afraid to say.
This kind of condition, often called retroactive jealousy, can be extremely uncontrollable, painful and overpowering. Unless you've had it, it's unlikely you'll be able to relate to it. Which is why you don't understand why people get upset over it. It is also different between men and women; both sexes can experience this but it manifests in quite a different way. Men are most upset with casual sex, and quantity of partners, whereas women tend to focus on one or a few specific partners. This is to be expected given the differences between male and female jealousy. But in short: men in general tend to get this much worse than women. And more problematically: men and women get it differently so they usually find it hard to empathise with each other about it.
For people who haven't experienced this, the truism 'the past is the past' is enough. But when suffering from this disorder, the past literally becomes the present. Obsessive / compulsive recalling of ones partners sexual history (along with imagining worst case scenarios) happens. These images are extremely painful, and set off jealousy, anger and feelings of insecurity. These emotions can be crippling, and very destructive to a relationship, leading to complete breakdown in the worst cases. But the really difficult part of this condition is that these emotions are being triggered by obsessive / compulsive behaviour: so they keep getting triggered over and over and over. The only escape seems to be to literally change the past, which is of course impossible. Despair can set in. Relationships can end in hateful ways.
It can be resolved, but it's difficult. An essential part is creating trust in the relationship. Part of a man's fear in this situation is he is being taken for a ride in some way; that his partner is not sexually trustworthy. That he has ended up with a 'used-woman' after she has had her fun with an array of alpha males and other scoundrels she should have seen coming a mile off. This is usually not the case, but jealousy is irrational and speaks to our darkest fears and fantasies. I don't want to go into it here, but I can say that understanding mans desire to subjugate woman becomes easy after experiencing this: those male emotions are powerful and run deep, despite the modern western more-feminist values we now have. A jealous mans heart is not a pretty place.
The woman can help build trust back, that's a positive and necessary step.
However in this situation, she's lied. Repeatedly. About one of the things that matters most to someone suffering from this. She lied even after he took the major step of putting himself into therapy. Frankly I don't know how it would be possible to ever believe her now. The girl has cried wolf one time too many. She's demonstrated that she's not willing to tell the truth about it. She's been given multiple chances to come clean and each time lied again. And without this trust, the insecurity will always be there, making the OCD much much harder to cope with: that sense of insecurity being a major trigger.
Normally I always recommend trying to fix a situation like this. But here, I'm really not so sure that's possible. Therapy has already been tried, and she has blown her second chance to establish trust.
As a last resort I'd suggest couples therapy, attended together. I'd also make sure the therapist is male, and has some experience of OCD. Your wife should also at some point write down and sign some kind of statement as to how many men she has had sex with (though avoid specific details, I suggest just names and the approximate date they first had sex). This should be presented as her last chance to tell the truth. Judging by her behaviour so far I suspect that number is a lot higher than she has indicated so far, but who knows. I say this based on hearing many similar stories to yours.
My other suggestions are going to seem a bit far-fetched, but as a last ditch attempt to save a marriage they might be worth trying.
I don't know if you are religious, but you may find some religious activities that can help. Religion stresses absolute forgiveness, which is needed here. You may be able to take some ritual and have it acquire a particular meaning for you two that enables you to focus on forgiveness and compassion. Two things you might want to look at are Yom Kippur and the Buddhist meditation of compassion. You might want to consider going on a week long meditation retreat together. This will bring you both face to face with the reality of where your relationship stands right now. I recommend meditation because it teaches useful techniques for overcoming OCD, but also because it reminds us of the essential nothingness of existence, a powerful insight that can help someone let go of a deeply held emotion or belief.
You may want to consider some kind of ritualised punishment for your wife. I know this probably sounds bizarre to people who haven't been here, but it can also work. Nothing too unpleasant. A daily demonstration of her admission of guilt over her lies and the pain they have triggered, plus a reminder that he retains a degree of control over her, and she willingness to be controlled. And most importantly, the visible demonstration by her that she is yours. The regularity and ritualisation of this is important. As well as her heartfelt participation.
I don't think drugs are the answer here (anti-depressants are sometimes proscribed). The primary trigger at the moment is that she has continued to lie, taking drugs won't change that.
I wish you luck. If you cannot get past this I hate to suggest you divorce, but that might be the only option. It appears you are fairly young and don't have kids, so finding someone else is not so difficult.
To the women reading this, I can only suggest that if your partner ever asks you this question, try to convince them that they don't want to know the answer. Hopefully they'll be wise enough to know that already. But, if you must tell them, always always tell the truth. I hope this horrible situation described above shows you why. Truth and trust is crucial, and often impossible to repair once broken over this subject. A lie about this is potentially much more damaging than the truth, however bad the truth may sound. I have been told about 20+ year marriages with kids being ripped apart because of a single lie told about this 20 years previously. Never never lie about it! But as I said: the simplest solution is to agree a don't ask / don't tell policy.
The problem with writing about this topic is it's very easy to offend people who don't know much about it. So before you give this answer one star thinking I'm some misogynist please realise that I'm actually quite the opposite: and just trying to describe a condition that brings out the worst side of men, usually good honest men who want nothing more than to simply love their partners.
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A
female
reader, rambini +, writes (27 April 2010):
 I don't understand why so many people get so angry and upset about their spouses past? it is in the past, therefore it doesn't matter anymore.
I think you need to end this marriage anyway, because you obviously don't trust her, and if you are this insecure with her then you shouldnt be together.
She probably knew you would freak out so told you a slightly smaller number, but it is wrong to make her feel like she has to justify her past.
Everyone has a past, and if you are willing to ruin this marriage for the sake of numbers, then more fool you.
Just let go of the past, she is with you now, she chose you above all these other men to marry, so be happy! Let go of the past and focus on the future you could share togehter.
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A
male
reader, Problem.helper +, writes (27 April 2010):
 I dont agree with other people here it is your business to as husband to know everything about your wife and she about you.
She shouldnt lie but she only did it because of your reaction about it. But that she swore and then told you there is another man ARE YOU KIDDING me?
Thats so wrong from her to do that to you when she knows how sensitive you are about this and plus put it in lie not nice...
You need to talk to her about this and solve it together. Please make compromises because she only didnt tell you because she didn't wanted you to feel bad. But the telling you about the other guys was just getting rid of guilt.
Take it from the bright side and don't get upset about those stupid things she done. We're human we make mistakes so forgiving her is the best thing you can do and she not lieing to you is her best thing to do
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A
female
reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (27 April 2010):
Sounds like what I've learned here is called 'retroactive jealousy.' RA is a real issue for those suffering from it. My advice is for you to read this thread, where it was pretty thoroughly discussed.: http://www.dearcupid.org/question/i-would-not-have-married-her-had-i.html
Additionally, I would send a message to 'Yos' and ask him to help with your situation.
You must have learned something in therapy, some insights into yourself and her past. Could you explain how it helped enough for you to marry her?
For what it's worth, she isn't proud of her past and probably hates that she's putting you through this now. She shouldn't have lied, I know, but she did choose you and wouldn't have if you were a crappy lover. She chose you because you complete her in a way that no man ever did before you.
I hope you find a way to make this work for you. Take care.
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A
male
reader, C. Grant  +, writes (27 April 2010):
 OK, your problem with this is what, exactly?
Are you concerned that somehow you won't measure up against the experiences she's had before? Well, she *chose* to marry you, to commit to you for the rest of your lives. Personally I would take that as a quite wonderful affirmation of your ability to make her happy both in bed and in life.
Are you concerned that she didn't trust you to not fly off the handle about the information? Well in that case, her concern is amply vindicated by your post here. She correctly judged that something in your makeup cannot handle the truth, despite her committing to you.
You're over 30, and somehow you can't handle the fact that she had a life before she met you. The issue here is your insecurity. It sounds like you met a woman who chose you in the context of having some experience. It sounds like she was 'otherwise worthy'. I would strongly suggest you give your head a shake. At your age, do you honestly think you're going to find a vestal virgin? She called you right on the money when she declined full disclosure. She correctly assessed that you couldn't take it. And it was none of your business to begin with.
You've given us precisely nothing to indicate that she's other that wholly suitable as a life mate. You, on the other hand, are messed up with insecurity. Move on or lose her. And it sounds like it will be *your* loss.
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A
male
reader, RAINORFIRE +, writes (27 April 2010):
 hmmm i think i would jsut get a divorce, the problem is your not going to believe any answer she gives you she probably s just trying to say what she thinks will calm you down if she says three and you call her a liar for an hour and then she says ok 4 and you cal her a liar for 2 hours and she says five lol thats what the cia does when they interogate people. dude just get a divorce you are not emotionaly capable of being in a relationship.
Truth is very important to me in a relation ship i feel my wife should be able to tell me anything, the way i show love is buy show acceptance with out judgement i feel i wouldnt be able to love some one completly if they werent honest with me.
It sound like this woman doesnt want to hurt your feelings scare you off with to big a number or shes ashamed or she likes playing mind games on you either way i dont see how the relationship can work because it bothers you to much, i say go your seperate ways, this problem come sup alot it seems to bother alot of guys im a christian and the bible says not to sleep with any one till your married maybe this is why.
I wouldnt ask a woman how many guys shes been with i really dont care it wouldnt bother me how many i wouldnt brng it up unless she did
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A
female
reader, samismiles +, writes (27 April 2010):
This is a problem considering you have repeatedly had your trust broken,I'd suggest that she may need some therapy for the lying and hiding especially in a new marriage. However it is a double ended knife, she didnt need to tell you how many she'd slept with, only it seems that as part of your relationship this was an integral point. You need to help her understand that honesty is one of the most important things in relationships, because without it you may aswell be dating a horse with 12 legs, telling you its an octopus. There needs to be some sort of recovery period where you both voice your concerns/thoughts on the matter and try to resolve it without letting the relationship breakdown, tell her that for things to work there cant be any more lying, especially the denial, lying and then lying about lying. Maybe you need to have a few long conversations about eachother and your past/present/future/regrets/pride etc, get to know eachother a bit more. Even when you're married you cant know a person inside and out. You must realise though that how many people she has slept with has nothing to do with her feelings for you and how much she cares for you, it is after all in her past that these things happened, as long as there hasnt been any cheating, you should be able to work through this without too much upset. You could take the approach that she may have forgotten because these people were obviously insignificant to her and nothing compared to you. Best wishes
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A
female
reader, Basschick  +, writes (27 April 2010):
 Honestly you do not have a right to know her past. However, if she volunteers to tell you, which she obviously did, I think she owes it to you to at least be truthful. Perhaps she thought she was "saving" your feelings by doling out the truth in small spoonfuls, hoping that you'd have time to digest each bite without freaking so much. While I do believe honesty and trust is a cornerstone for any marriage, and obviously she has crumbled this a bit, do keep in mind it was in the past and really not worth bringing into the future. She was probably afraid to tell you the truth because she knew how insecure you were about it. Now that you've had some counseling, she probably thought you could handle a few more details. I wouldn't file for divorce just yet, but hopefully this is the end of her dishonesty.
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A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (27 April 2010): WOW.... that's something you don't ask a female... let alone your wife.... she married you.. which says she wants to be committed to you and only you.... regardless if she's been with 100000000 guys.... think of as it took her X many guys to finally find you!! and when she found you... she knew she wanted you.. which is why your both married... thinking about the past... is pointless... look at what your doing to her... making her feel like she has to be ashamed... shame on you
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A
female
reader, Plexi +, writes (27 April 2010):
 She was dishonest but it is possible that she told you a smaller number just to spare your feelings and perhaps because she was too embarrassed to admit there were more?
I really don't think she did it to hurt you. Why did you need to know the actual number anyways? you can obviously tell is she is the type who has been with 1-3 or 100+. Whichever it is you decided to marry her for her not for her past experiences right? Remember that they are all in the past and she married and loves YOU.
Why would you do that to yourself? why obsess about the number and all the details? All you are doing is driving yourself crazy and annoying her. Think about how trivial it is..........as long as she is loving and faithful to you NOW the past doesn't matter, cherish the present because this matters:)
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A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (27 April 2010): Hi, I can understand how you feel but you need to remember that this was BEFORE you were married, she was a different person then and the fact she read her diary to you something that is so personal married or not shows that there is trust. You dont really have a right to pry into her past as you were not a part of that but you are her present and future so I think you should just stick to that! Don't dwell on the past!!! I hope this helps!
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (27 April 2010): The past is the past, leave her be.... If you've got a problem with it then it's your problem not hers. If you were scared of the answer you shouldn't have asked. Everyone has the right to a past, I made some big mistakes in mine but my partner knows I'm with him, I love him and those days are over. Give her the respect and trust that she deserves. What's done is done and the reason she lied was probably because she knew you were insecure or maybe she was ashamed. Her past is her right and she didn't have to tell you anything. get over it, work on your issues and don't let this unreasonable jealousy destroy your relationship.
Good luck. X
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