A
female
age
51-59,
anonymous
writes:i work with T who has recently been subjected to domestic abuse, and is still having this happen to her, at home. But something happened this week, people talking behind the back of T. And it has shaken my trust in some of my co-workers. Am i mis-reading what i think is completely innocent? Or do some people like to point the finger at an innocent person just to cause pain and to be malicious? What kind of person enjoys spreading nasty rumors?i am willing to listen to other views if you think i am naive.And how can people mis-read an innocent interaction between two people, when there is nothing happening?I am totally shocked that two other girls i work with, same age as T, could completely misread a situation and start casting doubt on the character of T. T is a Mom to two little girls.And T is clearly having domestic violence problems. She is married to a hard man who drinks heavily and he is becoming more and more unkind towards her.She is not ready to make a decision to leave him. She keeps hoping he will stop being so nasty. Maybe her Mom and Dad will be able to give her the strength to encourage her to examine her decision options, this weekend. Though she has told me his verbal abuse in front of her tiny twin girls is frightening for her and her babies. Her face is stained with tears after her husband has phoned her, to demand she do this, or that, and the pain of it all is evident on her face. T also said her husband is drinking heavily. And T's husband tells T she is stupid and dumb and worse. Which is not true.I can see things are really getting to T. So i am glad T is getting support and empathy from (most, but not all) of her co-workers. Her father and mother have let her know their home is her home when she needs it.At work, occasionally, T goes outside to smoke cigarretes with a couple of very supportive guys (who are indeed very honorable guys). Another older guy (who is a thorough gentleman) and T sometimes share lunch to talk things over.As far as i am concerned T needs every ounce of support she can get. I will be relieved if she accepts that she does not have to try to exist and suffer and be in the vortex of domestic violence.But this week i have been shocked when a small group of other girls at work were saying that 'T brings it on herself by going to lunch with (person X) and spending so much time outside smoking with (Y and Z). But T has only started more smoking more heavily, while she has been so stressed.How could a girl say, of T, who is being abused by her spouse, that she 'brings it on herself?' These girls were looking at me scornfully as asking me, 'how do you know something is not going on?'(between T and with X or Y or Z)My response was of course there is 'nothing going on'. T always dresses smartly and looks good. I can see how some less stylish girls could be jealous of her figure or her looks.But is this how some people think? That something is 'going on', when nothing is 'going on'?It is not the men criticizing T, it is girls who are around the same age as T. Are they just being catty? Do they not understand how bad domestic violence is? I don't understand how they can do this.T is also very charming, very good at her job. And if she could just think more highly of herself i think she could go far.I thought girls could not help but have empathy for another girl being abused at home. What is the mindset of girls who spread catty bitchy comments about another person?What is the mindset of girls who don't accept domestic abuse is real?And who blames a victim of domestic abuse? Or looks for excuses to justify the actions of the abuser?And why do people assume that two unconnected acquaintances are an item? To me it is catty, bitch and in denial about the life of a person facing domestic violence.I am trying to understand these other girls, and their motivations, but i can't.
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reader, anonymous, writes (13 May 2011): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionOdds you are so on the money. I was very pleased when she left him. And I had not realised that she got back with him again this week. I said something and she teared up. And I looked at her and said, are you back with him?
Yes.
There is only so much one can do. But I do hope she gets the wisdome to get up and leave him, eventually.
A
male
reader, Odds +, writes (3 May 2011):
 Had a response all thought out, but Cerberus and MishMash have already said it, and better than I would have. So I'll just second what they said, and add a bit here.
You hear it all the time from abuse victims, male or female, that they hate how much it hurts but they won't leave because they love the abuser so much. I'm don't know what causes it, and I'm not sure I want to. But some people are just screwed up and can't help being in love with someone who treats them like crap. Some people are screwed up and will make stupid decisions for love. When the two happen in one person, they stick with their abuser for years, or even forever. I've even seen news articles where some passerby tried to intervene in a physical fight between a couple, and *both* the abuser and victim turned and beat the crap out of the good samaritan.
This does not, in any way, reduce the abuser's responsibility. It's not a zero-sum game. I feel nothing but contempt for anyone who would repeatedly seek to damage their supposed loved one in any way.
But she needs to realize that she is screwed up and take direct action for the sake of her kids.
In a way, the people giving her sympathy are enabling her. They are helping her cope with the situation *by staying in it*. They are giving her a shoulder to cry on, ears to listen, and the feeling that someone cares. The catty girls making their snide remarks, as much as it disgusts me to think about, are doing her a favor if she ultimately responds to their shaming language and deals with her problems.
She has a safety net. She has parents who care about her. She needs to use that, to move out and take the kids away from that environment. If she can be convinced to do so by kind words and sympathy from you or her other friends, that's wonderful. If it takes shame and harsh language, it's worth it for the sake of those children. I couldn't say what, if anything, would work for her. But she's the only one who can solve this problem, and she needs to step up and do it.
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reader, littleBB  +, writes (3 May 2011):
I partially disagree with what has been said. I firmly believe T shouldn't have brought her problems in her job setting, attracting both sympathy and hatred. By doing so she attracted more comtempt than anything else, which is counterproductive on her own self esteem. The kind of behaviour you witnessed in your workplace happens all the time in micro-societies, for a lot of reasons: those who are sympathetic feel frustrated at not being able to help her, those who feel contemptuous just do so in order to neutralize their own fears of becoming victims (because they want to believe they could never be subjected to the same treatment and react that way out of fear). I also believe she should protect her daughters from her abusive husband. I believe all this, because I am in my right mind, like all of you, I see her mistakes and you see those mistakes too because we are in our right minds. But i need to point out that she is not in her right mind and that is why she acts that way, and the reason why she isn't totally mentally healthy is because she is being subjected to abuse. Abuse from an intimate partner is very detrimental, it turns people into slaves and makes them confused. It shatters their self esteem to a point where they are unable to trust themself and their own judgement. Victims are unable to see clearly their situation for what it is and tend to attract more abuse from their environment when the disclose their problems. It is not their fault simply because the weight of abuse and the pain which stems from it is so unbearable it skews their ability to think straight and act in their best interest. Abuse destroys their self esteem making them extremely vulnerable and even worse making them a unable to think straight, a slave of their own skewed vision. it is very easy to see the contraddiction of her behaviour from the outside, but people who are being abused don't see it, you need a certain level of self esteem, in order to see that and cope with it, which these victim do not have anymore, simply because they are wrapped into a vicious cycle. She doesn't feel capable of getting out of there because she thinks she is unable to. And she feels unable to do so because her self esteem has been shattered by the abuse. The best think you can do for her is suggest she seeks professional help and starts the process of self recovery.
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reader, anonymous, writes (3 May 2011): "You see I learned a long time ago, that people feed off sympathy, it makes them feel better and gives them the strength to keep going back for more abuse." The above quoted sentence hits the mark with me. I only left my abusive situation after I heard my friend sigh ever so deeply. I knew he had fiven up and that I had nowhere to turn to now. For some reason that is the moment that the magnitude of the abuse hit me. He was the only one who had been helping me, advising me and listening to me drone on and on about the terrible treatment I was recieving. I was mid-sentence with one of my complaining sessions and that sigh stopped me dead in my tracks. A month or so later I found the strength to leave. I whole-heartedly agree with Cerebus at some point you are no longer the victim but a participant of the abuse. Each time you stay, each time you sweep things under the carpet, each time you let your soul and body get trampled on you are by your actions participating in and condoning the abuse. The ladies at work might not handle things or say things diplomatically but the sentiment is still the same. Something as destructive as an abusive relationship must be left behind and until such time as you do, you do not deserve much sympathy unless it is in the process of getting out to save yourself and your kids.
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reader, rolfen  +, writes (2 May 2011):
 In some milder cases, the abused person would be carrying part of the blame, as she might have provoked it, or somehow played a part in the mascarade. But this seems to be a serious case, not an isolated incident, as everyone knows about it and the guy shows some other typical signs, that is drinking.
She can be blamed for thinking it's going to get better (it's obviously not). But I don't think this is what she needs to hear right now, plus she might be only fooling herself, just to be able to go through another day, because she does not see a viable alternative. I think the best one can do to for her is help her find an alternative to her situation.
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reader, GeeGee255 +, writes (1 May 2011):
 Cerberus, Mishmash, and Cindycares all your answers and advise are so excellant and on point that I have little to add except one small comment. To the posters question of why her co-workers would say she brings it on herself.I think it is because it makes them feel better to believe that. In a way it is a form of mental self protection. As long as they tell themselves that she brings it on herself they can pretend that something like that will never happen to them. It also dissolves them of any feelings of responsibility toward helping this woman out. So they can just ignore it and go on living in their fairy tale world without feeling a shread of guilt about it.
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reader, CindyCares +, writes (1 May 2011):
 Maybe this coworkers are mean spirited and lack of compassion- but I think first we should agree about what is "compassion".
Compassion is not cooing over the person who is being abused " Oh you poor helpless little thing, look what that brute has done to you, here, take a fag, have a good cry on my shoulder ". This maybe phase one, immediate emotional rescue- but if you get stuck in phase one, you are not being compassionate, it's the opposite , you are acting contemptous. Yes, it may be counterintuitive, but that's what it is. You cast forever the sufferer of the abuse in the role of helpless and clueless victim, you assume that she can't call on inner resources of strength , wisdom and courage to CHANGE the situation, that she is simply not good enough to take control of her life. With a fluffy , condescendent blanket of " poor girl it's not her fault , it's so tough for her " you keep her wrapped in her acquired helplessness and help her delay the inevitable time for taking responsibility for what's going on around her.
I said RESPONSIBILITY, not fault. She is not guilty of being abused, yet she is responsible for taking the best possible decisions for herself- and for her children !
Yes, honestly the children thing would get my goat too. Of course it's difficult to leave a dysfunctonal relationship, or any other bad situation in which you feel stuck. So ?... She is a MOTHER - mothers can do difficult.
Mothers can do inconvenient, can do heartbreaking, can - and SHOULD - do anything to protect their kids and make sure they grow up free from physical and emotional trauma.
That's what they are supposed to do,- they should get no medals for that .
This woman has a white collar job, she earns enough to dress nicely - and to smoke. Meaning, she is not at survival levels, she has disposable money for voluptuary expenses. A luxury that many women don't have,- and yet they go to shelters, ask help to churchs and charities, work inhumane workloads, go through any kind of humiliation and hardship to make sure their kids do not become victims of domestic violence too, or don't grow up
witnessing constant abuse. Sure, it takes guts- but when you are a mother of two , having guts is not an option, it's a must.
A huge percentage of situations in our life is the result of choice, basically ,mostly everything but natural disasters. And this woman has a choice- and has chosen to stay . And complain.
I think it's the awareness of that,more than natural bitchyness, that can somewhat limit the amount of
empathy that her coworkers feel for her.
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reader, anonymous, writes (1 May 2011): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionCerberus thanks for your comments. Reading them made me feel like I'd just been pummelled by the whole of the WWF wrestlers on call. Plus the weight of a Mack truck just for an encore. Your firm sincerity is without doubt.
I can see where you are coming from. I abhor domestic violence too. And i saw it as a child, but i have never once ever done it to anyone and i would leave if just one incident happened to me. You did bring a whole bigger picture to the front page. It was tough love advice for T but with advice like that i can see why you are a Top Uncle on Dear Cupid.
I did give T some brochures on Friday to read, and some after hours phone numbers for support resources to encourage her to recognise how bad this situation is and how much worse it could get if she stays.
I will find out more, (if she acted on advice given) at work on Monday. I do think T's partner has seriously undermined her confidence in herself. And that lack of confidence in herself is, i think, a byproduct of the abuse. The lack of confidence makes her less confident of her own judgement, which is not good.
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reader, anonymous, writes (29 April 2011): Thanks for the compliment OP...
Cerberus is right to bring up the kids...a point I didn't even address. If I as a 30 year old woman, I am horrified and losing sleep because a stranger next door is screaming and can be heard through my walls, I really don't know how a toddler handles SEEING this happen to his own mother. I find it profoundly upsetting to think that a woman would let herself be abused in front of her children and put them at risk for that kind of treatment.
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reader, anonymous, writes (29 April 2011): I just want to make something clear, my last post was very damning, I have good reason for that. I just want to say I would never openly criticize a person to their face about that. Not because I don't believe it but because it's counter productive. Giving an abuse victim another reason to shoulder more blame, making them feel worse about their situation is not going to help them so I don't do it.I do truly hope these people can get help and I do in my heart hope they remove themselves from that situation so there is no way I would ever exacerbate that by making them feel bad about it.But when I hear someone feel sorry for a person like that I cut them down in an instant. I won't stand there an listen as people give them sympathy because you know what? That doesn't help either. It only feeds them in their victim role and that too makes the problem worse. You see I learned a long time ago, that people feed off sympathy, it makes them feel better and gives them the strength to keep going back for more abuse.So when someone in any kind of situation that causes them to suffer any kind of pain, something they choose to let continue and they come crying to me about it. I;m cold, and emotionless. I tell them to just sort it out, how they can sort it and to stop crying about something that they can change because they can. In my opinion a person that acts as a shoulder to cry on to a person who isn't doing anything to change their situation is just helping keep them there. I will be that shoulder once they're out, I will listen and help, I will cry with them but only after they've removed themselves from it.
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reader, anonymous, writes (29 April 2011): mishmash says a lot of good points and I know this isn't politically correct, but as a kid who grew in such an environment the victim has to take 50% of the blame for what is going on. Especially if there are kids involved."Though she has told me his verbal abuse in front of her tiny twin girls is frightening for her and her babies." And yet she stays? I mean my mother did her best to make sure I didn't see what was happening to her and the man doing it made sure she didn't see what he was doing to me. This woman doesn't even have that. She's letting this happen in front of her kids and she not only keeps her kids in this environment but he could be doing inhuman things to them while she's at work, yet she stays.I have no sympathy for abuse "victims" while they're in that situation. I do hope they get help and I do hope they remove themselves from the situation and afterwards, when they're out I have all the sympathy in the world. I do understand why they stay too. I know first hand why they do but it's unacceptable in all circumstances. If a woman or man wants to stay and have their mind and body pummeled by their partner then that's their choice at the end of the day they choose that instead of fighting against it or escaping. You can bore me with all the psychological nuances of being victim all you want (I've heard them all) at the end of the day it all comes down to choice, a choice that they always have and one their kids never do. Whatever the reason for their choice to stay, whether it's because they're broken, whether it's because they can't see a way out, whether it's because they love their partner, whether it's because they truly believe that their partner can change. None of those reasons are acceptable if there are kids in the situation too. OP the woman you know is an intelligent, well presented woman, she has healthy finances, she has loving parents ready and willing to house her and her kids, yet she stays? I mean she has an out that most women in her situation don't have. She's not even trapped in this situation the way most women are. She has a job, she has support, she has friends and a ready made independent life waiting for her but instead she prefers to stay as her twins watch her get abused. In my opinion she's the worst kind of "victim" she's staying hoping he will change, so she's willing to put her kids through hell based on a stupid hope. She's not ready tp leave so her kids have to suffer until she's ready to leave, why the hell does she deserve sympathy for that? I feel sorry for the kids OP, because while she "decides" to stay in that situation, they're the ones who suffer, they're the ones without that choice, they're the ones who need protection from this but is she protecting them? No, she's complacent in their suffering OP and that is completely unacceptable.OP are you a mother? If so would you kill/die to protect your kids? Then how can you feel sympathy for another mother who makes her children suffer like that for completely selfish, insane reasons? I've been the kid in that situation, I know the torture and pain of it so I will never, ever feel sorry for a mother/father that keeps their kids in that situation. I didn't have a choice but to suffer that abuse, my mother did, she made that choice for me because she loved that man and believed he could change and that she didn't deserve better because she was to blame for what was happening, if she could change who she was and be nicer then he would too. Ridiculous OP. There's no excuse for that.You know what kind of person are most likely to grow up to be abusers? Yes, that's right kids who were brought up in abusive environment, so you see she also risks raising abusers. She doesn't just risk raising abusers, she's currently keeping them in a situation where they are getting psychologically damaged, each and every time they see their mother get abused they get damaged even more.So OP for all the sympathy you have for this woman, take a moment to think about she is doing to her kids. She may not be doing this to them directly but she is letting them get destroyed, in what world do you find what she is allowing to happen to them acceptable? Would you ever let anyone put your kids through that kind of suffering and pain? Make no mistake OP letting your kids be a witness to this kind of thing is as bad as doing it yourself.Forgive me for not being politically correct in my post OP but I've been through it, I've seen and suffer the consequences of that every day, so when some whiny man or woman complains about suffering something that they *can* stop then I have absolutely no sympathy and I actually find a little taste of disgust in my mouth. When I hear this person also has kids I can't help but view them with utter contempt for being a pathetic little slime of a person that doesn't step up and fulfill their duty as a parent and protect their kids. L has no excuse in my mind OP, none. She is in a far better position than most women who are being abused yet "she's not ready to leave" awww poor woman, I don't think so. Sorry but no. Her kids are the victims and she's a willing participant in their suffering, so in my mind she's just as bad as her husband. There is absolutely no reason he should do this to her, there is absolutely no justification for the abuse he is doing to her, none. She doesn't deserve it, no one ever does and she's not doing anything that would ever warrant such treatment. But her kids also don't deserve a mother who cares so little about them as to selfishly only think of her own needs and want to stay. Our kids deserve the possible life we can give them OP, I don't care what anyone says, you should be willing to give up everything to protect them.So next time you hear these girls criticize her OP, spare a thought for the possibility that maybe these girls know what it's like to suffer this kind of abuse as kids, maybe they know or have seen the deleterious effects that living in this kind of situation. Maybe they know that as an adult she has choice to protect her kids but has made the decision not to. It's not heartless OP, it's having a heart and directing at the right people, the kids.
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reader, anonymous, writes (29 April 2011): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionmishmash, that was really good advice. You brought up things with more depth than i expected any Aunt to post. I'm printing it out to allow me to reflect on it more deeply. The calibre of your advice deserves that level of respect.
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reader, anonymous, writes (28 April 2011): I think your story demonstrates yet another way in which women can be worse to each other than men. I think both the men and the catty women are reacting to the archetype of the victimized woman. You asked a question about these particular women's mindsets toward an abused woman, but I think you should also examine the men's mindset.
Most men give an abused woman the sort of compassion and attention they might not even show to their own partners. They are particularly gentlemanly with an abused woman because they know her husband/boyfriend behaves like a total savage. Interacting with her, consoling her might in fact be an ego boost for them. For instance, there is an aunt on this very site whose name is "Ihatewifebeaters." Why pick such a name? Because it makes him appear more compassionate than most men.
Though it's not PC to talk about, I think western culture promotes the idealization of a vulnerable women. Check out this question:
www.dearcupid.org/question/why-i-am-attracted-to-women-with-low.html
This guy isn't a wife beater, but I think his own acknowledgement that he is attracted to weak and broken women is pretty common. Men like women who make they feel mature, strong, and manly. An abused woman is the paragon of this vulnerable woman. .You might think it’s paradoxical to for women so similar to her to “blame the victim”, but here’s another paradox I’ve never been able to understand: that the very man who prides himself on his civilized nature often has no problem threatening violence against a man who beats his wife. I've even seen idle threats from otherwise level headed uncles on this site when some man admits to violence against a woman.
Regarding the woman, I think the cattiness only partly comes from their jealousy. Some women observe how a coworker gets the sort of intimate attention and compassion that they would never receive and it seems totally unreasonable that they should receive this attention and pity for being essentially broken and week. They would prefer to assume that the woman manipulates the men... Not only do they exercise their jealousy, but by blaming the woman for her situation, they keep themselves from looking at a horrific situation very closely. I think this is a common way to deal with a stranger’s suffering. It's why many people look down on the poor...drug addicts...single moms. I would venture to say that attitude comes a lot from the Calvinist theology that has influenced a lot of American culture...the idea that the poor and the misfortunate deserve their misfortune.
While I would never blame an abused woman for her situation, women who stay with abusive partners really do upset me. Yes, they are going through something horrific, but if they don't leave the situation, then at a certain point they ARE complicit in the abuse. This is also not a politically correct thing to say but I do believe it. If you are a man or a woman and you chose to stay in relationship after a pattern of abuse has been established, you are in part complicit in the cycle. I'm not saying it's easy to walk away.
I lived beside a house where I was pretty sure the wife was being abused. I kept hearing her screaming and crying in the middle of night, and arguing with her husband. It was one of the worst things I've ever heard...I literally could not sleep some nights listening to the things going on in that house. It was profoundly upsetting to me. But if I tried being friendly to this woman in person when I ran into her, she withdrew. I did witness police coming to her house, but the violence appeared to go on. I even tried calling the police myself at one point, but discovered, it is actually quite difficult to get them to investigate this sort of thing...they often don't out of respect to people's "privacy".
But what upset me the most was that she stayed with this man. She didn't want help. Honestly, the fact that she chose to put up with it made me very angry. I had a boyfriend hit me once and I simply told him I would never speak to him again. I just don't understand how some people tolerate that kind of treatment.
The last issue that probably contributes to the cattiness is that this all takes place in a professional environment. This woman is being abused and it seems it's general knowledge at her work place. That sort of very personal knowledge can be unwelcome among colleagues and viewed by some as unprofessional. I somewhat agree with this following sentiment; If you are having personal problems at home, keep them at home or tell a supervisor about them and ask for assistance. Don’t bring your personal problems to work. Don't let it become common knowledge.
I've seem younger woman in my last office get engaged and break off the engagement multiple times. They always end up in a ball of tears in the storage closet and have to be consoled by a male coworker before they can come out. As someone who works hard to maintain composure and appear professional, it is irritating to watch people bring their personal baggage to work. It perpetuates the idea that women are over-emotional and can't control their own behavior.
If I were in your situation, I'd definitely be kind to this woman. I wouldn't blame her for her situation, but at the same time, I would wonder why the whole office knows about it...and more importantly I would sincerely hope she DID something about her situation and leave the man. I know you aren’t supposed to “blame the victim”, but if she repeatedly goes back to this man, she enabling the abuse. Most abused women have to lose too much before they come to terms with their part in the cycle of abuse.
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