A
male
age
30-35,
*ark_halcyon
writes:Hello.Ok, here it goes, I'll try to short down everything. I have relatively enough relationship experience in my past. Never had such RJ, even if it was the girl I fell for, and even if there was larger number of partners.Now it will be 1 year since my current GF (19) and me (a bit older) are together. She's also my first one to hold on for so long and didn't screw anything up. She basically has only one sexual experience in past, and never dated or had relationship before. As we got involved, she wanted to clear that up, right away, and shared info on her past. I didn't ask so soon, but she probably wanted to get done with that part because it's a fact that it would come on the table at one point, when you have serious relationship.It came out that it was ONS. Where she lost virginity at age of 17. But only few months later, gradually she started telling me the whole story, piece by piece. But contrary to when she first mentioned it, this subject got darker aura out of her, with time. Not that I debated it often, I just wanted to know what really happened, as she first said that it's not a problem to talk about it, but it ended up being opposite as she started caring about me more and more. So, she was with her female friend on summer vacation, what appears to be 4 or 5 months(by my logical conclusion) before we met. The vacation at place especially known in this country for wild summer parties, involving sex, probably drugs, etc. Her friend was in other room of apartment with three guys, and they both ended up being involved in, lets call it an orgy. She didn't plan it then and wasn't too consent about it, but "one thing led to another", blah blah. But this was no threesome, or simultanous sexual acts, however the missing details were: she gave a blowjob to one guy, and separately lost virginity to another one, not as a full-blown sex though(he penetrated and she pushed him away immediately). You see, this is all very cloudy, but I promised to ask nothing more because she started getting disturbed, blocked, like I was pushing the matter. I say cloudy because she last claimed that situation was scarry, blowjob was to "get rid of them", and sex part was interrupted by her pushing him away, plus telling me that she wouldn't have sex with strangers and needs intimacy. But I still think it is mainly a rationalization, making it sound almost as a semi-rape, though it doesn't really seem like it, and her statement that she never thought she'll find someone back then, was feeling lonely, somehow proves it. I mean, she never ever emphasized directly that she regreted it, that she feels abused or something of the kind - only if I asked more then she answered how she wouldn't repeat this 'back in time', and that she's "done with that". Its not only typical RJ, I can't get with the fact that I will never know what the fuck was this truly about, how she really feels when she looks back, does she even look back, is she maybe proud of it, or does she render it - as told - totally insignificant in her present and future. It would require the scene as it happened with 100% explanations, to be played in front of my eyes as a film to really be able to understand it and be sure how important/deciding it really is.For some reason blowjob part bothers me the most, and the feeling is like thousand razors tearing through my head. I feel I was given this information only to be tortured by it. She counts me as her first sexual partner, and I'm not sure how to understand this. It aditionally bothers me that she didn't even count blowjob as 'sex', and she did it to, quote, "get rid of them". Her, perhaps wishful perception of me being technically her first may be refering to significance of deed, but ironically it makes it worse for me.So enough of that; you can typically accuse me of being judgemental, but its not about that, I am not. It's a brutal form of RJ, and I experienced something close to clinical depression before, it was sheer horror, but nothing like this, I dare to say this is incomparably worse. Pure hell and mind destruction.The thing I wanted to talk about is this; I do trust her, as far as you can without being naive, and she trusts me, which isn't easy for her to do with people in general. But I am just being careful, and so I can't be 100% sure that her past doesn't imply something in her character which might be sort of risk.This is so complex that it causes me mental spasms, it reflects on present and I can get sceptical on little things because my mind rushes through million of interconected options which end up not seeming unrealistic.Today we played a question game, something we used to do. It was a blitzkrieg random Q and A for fun. To summarize her answers:-her past mistakes don't bother her-believes if you change your past you wouldn't be who you are today-she believes in karma-admits being contradictive in general-she is atheist (hm..)-she believes in true love-she is in love-believes in destiny-is a happy person, an optimist-would prefer uncertainty, unsafety over stable, routine life-envies people who get more than she does-doesn't like authorities, doesn't appreciate anyone in her family (though I couldn't see why, I never met them, but it sounds to me that they are alright parents who care for her, and it implies she could act upon rebellion out of spite - do you see a problem?). It means that in relationship she won't admit my part of authority as a man, and I don't really have to explain this.-would prefer monogamy if she were single (sounds like she would have no problem with acting promiscuous then)-started emphasizing how independence is important to heretc, etc.The things she was interested about me again, at this point - her questions were:-do I regret some of my past actions (I said YES)-do I have insecurities, to name them-do I like animals, am I destructive, do I like revange-am I a happy person-do I trust people-do I believe in god-do I believe in true love, am I in love and do I trust herSeems like they really can sense what's in our minds, since she asks me these questions, its just like she knew exactly what bothers me. And again, my mind rushes in all sorts of connections, like every detail is for a reason, I get impression that she detects where my deepest worries are. Like she wants to know if I am confident, insecure, jealous, satisfied, before she can say "I've seen for who he is". The same way I feel that my constant analysis of her as a GF, with RJ included, has a perfect reason and it's part of getting larger picture, and even after a year I can't be sure.This makes me feel bad about relationships, because it feels like it's more of a constant test of time than anything else, so I can't get relaxed in relationships at all. Now, all that aside, she's been a great GF, there were no deal-breakers, I haven't caught her in anything like that;I truly do know that all I want is HER as a life partner, and she expresses herself the same, genuinely believes we'll be 'forever'/for a life time. She dared to confidently say that idea of being with one person, emotionally, sexually for the rest of the days doesn't bother her at all. However, in praxis, I can feel her testing small boundaries with me in many ways, instinctively, for example: she'll sometimes be too playful, to the point that I feel she tries to annoy me on purpose. Also, as honeymoon period is over, she'll make cocky remarks more freely, etc. I've also noticed that while she's capable of deep emotional moments to express her love, she'll pull back lightly as a withdrawal, maybe get more surpressed, "normal", distant, next hours or day/s, and as relationship gets older this can manifest stronger, example: more affectionate during bleeding menstruation, a bit less affectionate during first days of month(perhaps ovulation even), and it seems she can take longer periods of time apart more easier, so when we do meet in person, she'll be crazy to see me for smaller time-span than before. Am I wrong to believe this is natural in longer relationships?Her being young I think she doesn't understand some facts as well. She claims 'nice guy' isn't something that woman should resent. This is a long story to write, in short she'll consider me as a 'nice guy', but I explained to her the matter of fact. I'm almost certain that if I let go and act lovey dovey 100%, it won't do any good.One more thing for bottom line, my biggest fear: let's say that you somehow, by miracle and lots of work get rid of this RJ, you finally accept the person with such past. This would be a huge sacrifice for the benefit of both. And then the person does fail and messes you in future. I feel that I would suffer to insanity, that I would be a looser who lost every single battle and universe would laugh at me. Actually this was a huge text. I'd appreciate your time to share opinion; questions:-Is this case of RJ completely irrational? -If this was your GF, would you have similar doubts as I do?-do you think that she is a relationship material?
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female
reader, CindyCares  +, writes (10 December 2013):
 You have got to be kidding, Op . You are riddled by obsessive, frequent ( does not need to be 24/7) IRRATIONAL ( she gave a BJ to a stranger at 17, that means fatally she is going to cheat on me any chance she's got- where's the logic in that ? ) dysfunctional thoughts, that makes you totally miserable , deprive you of sleep, cause your dark moods, interfere with the enjoyment and , and quality of life in lack of an ACTUAL, present loss or traumatic event ... and you would not need psychiatric help ?... Sane as you would not need an umbrella during monsoon season in India .
Therapy and counseling are not just for " insane " , psychotic people, - guys who think they are Napoleon and such. It offer very valid help for emotional / cognitive distrurbances. Like obsessive compulsive thoughts .
If you were in a situation of total mental / emotional balance, - you would have behaved differently.
Having decided that a ) she is an immoral slut b ) unempathic, self-centered and ego-driven c ) incapable of devotion and on the look out for someone more virile and attractive than you d ) basically very different in personality and values from you , and unable to understand yours - well, then, what's the problem ? you would have dumped her already , because if things are the way you portray them with such unswayable determination, then simply you are mismatched , she is not the girl for you, and you are wasting your , and hers time, so - game over.
But no, like all RJ suffererers you love to spit in the plate in which you eat. The girl plays " bad girl " against you " nice guy ", feeds of your energy like a vampire, humiliates you with her lack of jealousy , generally makes you a nervous wreck,... and what do you do, of this girl you can't say one nice thing about ? You STAY with her- and you are content with judging her and badmouthing her to strangers.
Maybe this kind of behaviour is not " insane " , as in the guy who believes he is Napoleon... but is irrational, neurotic , and ineffective to the solution of your problem. Ergo, again, you can't have it both ways, either you get rid of the girl, or you get rid of OCD... pardon me, " RJ " .
A
female
reader, janniepeg  +, writes (10 December 2013):
 You are talking about one type of woman. She's more alpha than the average. She is daring and couldn't care less about what people think about her. There are many women who follow the rules and do the right thing. There are women who love too much and get burnt by players. I know you know this already but you are drawn to her because she dares to be different. She won't be boring. It's every man's dream to have a chaste woman but a chaste woman has no value if she is sexually frigid or has a low libido. Many people marry others who bring security. They think it's better to suffer boredom later than to have their hearts broken. Some others go with their hearts because they can't imagine their marriages to become a roommate situation.
Sex within partners can get addictive. It's hard to leave when you feel that no one else could bring you equal pleasure in the future. It's only after you exhaust yourself then you can appreciate the simplicity and comfort of a predictable partner.
Cease your existence? You get us worrying here.
Just yesterday she revealed she was in love with you. And today you are talking about cheating. You can read into every action of hers, but so far I don't see any signs.
We have an animal side of us and an angelic side. You got caught up with your primal fears. Balance it out by helping others in need to bring yourself out of your own little bubble. The only love you need is self love. After your rant you still have to come back to real life. I am afraid to say anything more because it would just feed more negative thoughts in you.
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A
male
reader, dark_halcyon +, writes (10 December 2013):
dark_halcyon is verified as being by the original poster of the question" The "it didn't mean anything" might as well be the title of the Cheater National Anthem. "
Actually, thats exactly what said about her ONS when she first disclosed the info. "But it didn't mean anything to me, I promise".
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A
male
reader, dark_halcyon +, writes (10 December 2013):
dark_halcyon is verified as being by the original poster of the questionYouWish,
Because she doesn't regret it, and I do. Because I had performance issues in such cases. Because women and men are not hardwired the same way. Double standard is actually biological standard. Because I haven't been a tool to aim someone in cheating. She sucked the guy who had a girlfriend.
Because if she would be bothered by same thng as I am, I'd gladly give her an assurance, I'd take care of her, I would cure her hypothetical RJ. She didn't do that when she probably sensed it bothered me, she was more worried about HER STATUS, about HERSELF.
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A
male
reader, dark_halcyon +, writes (10 December 2013):
dark_halcyon is verified as being by the original poster of the questionJanniepeg, she cannot relate to my inner experience of life(+turmoil), no one can. I've reached some crucial peronal understandings about life by the age of 20, lived though all kinds of shit, now being 25. Myself, I would call this a dark enlightenment, and I don't expect aynone, especially her to participate, though I'd like to have that in partner. I've reached a conclusion that people, less women, are incapable of love as it's made up to be. I think that reality is constant chasing, crude biology and ego, thus according to such human nature, its only a selfish game and DNA competition, meaning: if she decides to do something for self-gratification and reaches a better end, I will be a fair/inferior looser. People are sadists by NATURE, because this is all a competition game, and if one is not your bloodline, there is no real connection and empathy is simply a delusion. Meaning, she'll get more oppotunities on sexual/dating market than I ever could. She will want to win, it's hadwired, so if she cheats (as a banal example), she will WANT to feel bad, but it will be a sadistic gratification beyond the social norms. I think cheater enjoys it deep down, because he gains more than he looses. Its all a game, a business deal: search for one of the most eloquent people on the topic called Chateau Heartiste.In another words, if I could cease my existance without too much mess, I'd do it right now. It's all a selfish competition game, but for now I have to play it.[Mod note: due to the mention of suicide, this question is being closed. The OP is urged to seek professional counseling and to reach out to a suicide prevention agency.]
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A
female
reader, YouWish  +, writes (10 December 2013):
 You said this about your casual encounters of the past:
"I can easily say that those didn't mean anything to me"
You wonder why she could give away her virginity in a matter that seemingly didn't mean anything to her? That her doing so makes you question whether or not she'll lie or whatever??
What you just said in the sentence above can paint you with the exact same brush. To a paranoid woman, "She didn't mean anything" or "It was just sex" is the main justification of guys who cheat on their wives or partners. The "it didn't mean anything" might as well be the title of the Cheater National Anthem.
But you say that regardless of your past, you know yourself and know that when you are devoted, you have the ability and emotional maturity to be relationship material.
I submit to you that you give her the same consideration you give yourself, because again, if you had meaningless sex, what is the difference?
I know some people say "you can't try to be rational with someone suffering from RJ", but if you're asking whether or not you're irrational, I'm going to speak rationally to you.
Your past sexual history carries the same "red flags" you are attributing to her past sexual history. Why would you give yourself such a past only to obsess about her nearly identical past? And, it IS nearly identical. To say otherwise is arguing semantics and mysogeny.
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A
male
reader, dark_halcyon +, writes (10 December 2013):
dark_halcyon is verified as being by the original poster of the question"Why should she be jealous, just because you are jealous too? "I recall her saying that "little bit" of jealousy is healthy, and I openely disagreed, mind you. I think she was ignorant on what even little bit of jealousy means, and when she senses it, either she doesn't like it, or somehow feeds on it in small doses like a vampire in subtle doses. I've seen her appreciating certain quotes on internet earlier in relationship, as far as I can remember: "it's good to know someone is jealous, means the person is afraid to loose you", additionally some worse stuff: "Everything I like happens to be immoral, forbidden, dangerous"; "Since I started seeing someone, I feel like raping my own space" (it was earily on when we started dating).I think women who are in love are somewhat stimulated by being little bit jealous though they won't admit it. You can argue that 100% non-needy female is a good one, but I've written about it in previous post. On the other hand, if she would enjoy me being jealous "a little bit" to feed her ego, then it's ego thing, its ABOUT HER as long as I MAKE HER FEEL GOOD. In reality, she didn't like any jealous/possessive signs from me, and thats what I tried to tell her. The whole point is: I'm tying to figure out whether she's the typical "bad boy" lover, but has cognitive dissonance and denies it, and settles for "nice guy" just for "beta bux".
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A
male
reader, dark_halcyon +, writes (10 December 2013):
dark_halcyon is verified as being by the original poster of the questionLet me defend myself a little bit more, it must be done. Seems that people with RJ often get treated as insane. No, I don't need professional help, no, I am not obsessive 24/7. It just looks like it, because the subject on this topic is fixed, and I happen to have some free forum time, drinking beer and listening to music. Yeah, that's what people do, they sit down and think about stuff happening in their life, the same way I would contemplate seriously about my career, or discuss a business task on specilized forum(would that make me obsessive?), analyse pros and cons, opportunities and risks when making an investment, et cetera.OT,Yet I did admit to irrational/subconscious trips with specifically "past issue", along with pointing out that I understand no one can help me on that matter and its out of my control. Yes, its hell when "episodes" happen, however if it wasn't something of non-deviant human nature (just see how many people have problems with this and aren't necessarily OCD), it would be a clinically accepted definition of disorder. But it isn't, and doesn't equal to OCD per se, its more likely a hardwired evolutionary biological remain.Truth is simple: you despise thinking about how your partner has been in kinky sex (especially if (ab)used), the more you are in love, the more you invest. This cannot be disorder.IMPORTANTLY:It seems as if part of my problem is triggered by logic which I apply to her psychology. I've listed my triggers, there are some which I don't consider so irrational, ie. a big one:Though she can be affectionate GF with me, she differs from most of women and her female friends. One who had a BF asked her how can she be cold with me at times (translation - not being needy as they are, which is typical of females in love). She was going out separately a lot, sometimes didn't invite me on what would be called "double dates". She made a remark about female friend of hers how she is whimpy because it hurt he when she was loosing viginity to boyfriend. ed flag in my opinion if girl/woman tries to act though. Its not feminine.This logic traces back to when she did what most of women wouldn't dare to. So it imposes a certain questions.
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A
female
reader, janniepeg +, writes (10 December 2013):
It could be hard for her to share her day without you analyzing her every move. I know you try your best not to sound controlling but she knows of your inquisitive nature. She knows that you are asking about her life to get some reassurance that she's faithful. If that's the case that's not genuine care for a person's well being but rather to get relief to get through your night. If she could sense tension it's understandable that she wants to distance herself without being fully conscious about what the cause of the tension. You two are on different wave lengths and she can't relate to your inner turmoil.
Do you see her every semester break? Whatever she does is out of your control so you might as well concentrate on your life, your hobbies in your own town. Love shouldn't hurt that much. And she hasn't been caught doing anything wrong.
"Not even the slightest jealousy shown." Why should she be jealous, just because you are jealous too? Why can't she be happy? Should she be miserable just because she is in a long term relationship?
When you do everything to avoid harm and pain, in this process itself you are harming yourself. You are crying out for help.
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A
female
reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (10 December 2013):
 I didn't say it was ordinary RJ. I said you needed help for the OCD and the obsessive thinking. Did you happen to read Yos's posts? I'll guess that you can't because your mind is too wound up on the other stuff.
Again, you need professional help. You are stuck in some obsessive compulsive loop.
I expect this will be a very bumpy ride for you. Oh well, as long as you don't damage other people, it's up to you to experience life as best you can with that OCD brain thing going on.
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A
male
reader, dark_halcyon +, writes (10 December 2013):
dark_halcyon is verified as being by the original poster of the question"I see this is a more complicated matter. The long distance and trust issues compounded just exacerbated the RJ symptoms."That's exactly the fuel: distance but only in certain circumstances: potential party situations, girls night out's, acting distant when not emotionally stimulated, acting different than hour or day before, acting like I always have to trust her and for example if I get worried about something she'll lately start to accuse me of being controlling (so I stopped), impression that she doesn't like to answer about whereabouts, sort of like she treats it as obligation, her not showing any interest about my day/out goings, not even the slightest jealousy shown, etc, etc.
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A
male
reader, dark_halcyon +, writes (10 December 2013):
dark_halcyon is verified as being by the original poster of the questionJanniepeg, thank you. This is the first time I can talk about WHOLE relationship without getting accused of simple OCD, or distrust.
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A
male
reader, dark_halcyon +, writes (10 December 2013):
dark_halcyon is verified as being by the original poster of the questionTisha, some have understood part of my reasoning about relationships. I think in details about everything in order to avoid pain and harm, this is not just RJ. Pay attention to my descriptions and you'll see that this isn't only some retro "jealousy". Its more about getting the bigger picture. I can't just take someone for word 100%, and not look into their character. Past is a large part of it.
I am also talking about how she acts in the present and there has to be causality in relation to her past, even if she changed, there is a mechanism.
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A
female
reader, janniepeg +, writes (10 December 2013):
I look like a plain jane, an innocent small asian type and if it weren't for my son I would have taken more risks in life. You don't need to loud, rambunctions and dress like a slut to have a risk-taker personality.
I think the scary thing for you is that she is able have sex without some sort of connection but you need it. That makes it unbalanced and you have more people to compete with. Guys also outnumber girls in the sex hunting area. A lot of guys would be rejected before a girl just choose who she wants to be with.
I see this is a more complicated matter. The long distance and trust issues compounded just exacerbated the RJ symptoms.
One thing to be aware of though, she's 19 and the brain does not mature until 25. A young person can be reckless and disregard common sense. Not all young people but you mentioned she has a rebellious streak and dislike the ordinary. That's the form she has right now. After every 7 or 8 years your bodies go through a transformation with new cells. It's not uncommon for people who are now living normal lives to look back with sheer disbelief of what they were capable of doing when young. It's not a guarantee that everyone straightens their lives out and be content with an ordinary life. So that's why I told you to go slow and not jump into a long term commitment, even when the long distance frustrates you. Just take it one day at a time because there is no rush to get married.
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A
male
reader, dark_halcyon +, writes (10 December 2013):
dark_halcyon is verified as being by the original poster of the questionTo add some notes:Tonight she was responding from mobile chat. Which NEVER happens at night because she's at the college apartment, and has a notebook PC. There is no reason whatsoever to use mobile phone for surfing and studying over there in a room - 100% of times at evenings she's doing something on notebook, otherwise she would be starring at walls. If she's using mobile app to communicate, then she's usually outside. Well, tonight she responded from mobile, which is the first time, and was very short. When I asked what's up, as she didn't mention about being busy, she was immediately "going to sleep". You can say I'm a very paranoid person, but these little details are out of the pattern, and I might look to much into it, however its usually how it happens. I can only trust her, I can't NOT NOTICE though. The thing is - she never was into telling a lot about her day, asking me questions. While I happen to do it naturally.Do you see why my RJ isn't just that? It isn't some sort of judgement or denial of present and future, but just a piece of a puzzle to be able to know "who is this person of today, in the present". Sure, you should trust, but you can't stop being logical, observable, and I can only do that by going into her psychology (which has A LOT TO DO WITH PAST), like - can she lie, can she rationalize, is she bipolar, selfish, risky, etc.
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A
female
reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (9 December 2013):
You need to get help for the OCD and obsessive thinking.
Parsing this six ways till Sunday will do nothing to stop the compulsive imaging you have going on in your head. And it's obvious that nothing anyone here says or suggests has any effect on the imagery that is playing through your head.
Get professional help for the OCD. If you need something to do while you wait for an appointment, read all the posts by this aunt: http://www.dearcupid.org/people/yos
Good luck with things.
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A
male
reader, dark_halcyon +, writes (9 December 2013):
dark_halcyon is verified as being by the original poster of the questionWell, I've listed some of those feelings under irrational category. But I still don't think this can be compared, for some reasons which I won't get into. I'll only say that women are not statistically so much bothered by man's sexual history, many times its even opposite, and my GF doesn't care at all, so that says something, ain't it? For one thing, biological reason.So, yes I had some small casual flings, and as for myself:1) I wouldn't give oral to a girl, no matter what, on such encounters, especially not stranger. +I never had sexual encounter with 100% strangers (plural).2) I developed self-knowledge that I don't like any sort of casual sex with girls I'm not connected to - there were performance issues, and so on. So from such an experience I can know that about myself, that I truly need bonding in real situations, while I can't know that about her. I can easily say that those didn't mean anything to meORthat I regret them when I find the right girl if this girl thinks the same. While my girlfriend had occasional blockages on topic, and the thing is cloudy as I said, she never told me about any real regrets openly. She even said how past in general shouldn't be changed because it makes you who you are (tautology). While I admitted that I regret some past mistakes. I don't see a logic behind "you wouldn't want to correct mistakes from past or affected negatively by them", 'cause then they're not really mistakes, right? If she hasn't seen that I've been quietly bothered by such info, she would perhaps be proud of it. I don't know.3) I lost virginity to a long-term girlfriend. Her loosing it the way she did is equivalent to man having the first sex with a prostitute. In a way. I bet even women wouldn't be too happy about it. And, to repeat, most of women wouldn't even dare to be introduced to sex the way she did. If it really was a situation as described, "scarry", "getting rid of them", but she could still have said "no", and didn't, that says something about her psychology. If it was semi-rape, then she would act much more damaged about it from beginning I think and I guess. If it was consensual then she lies and rationalizes, and is a type of girl who can take more risks than majority even though she doesn't "look" like that on a surface.This was to explain my reasoning and show that it's more than simple "double standard" of RJ.SIDE NOTE: Janniepeg said she didn't get the account/password part. Shortly - she asked me to give her my facebook password, so she can play a FB game from multiple accounts. Then she gave me hers. Giving away passwords requires trust, so I took it positively. After two months, she asked me to change mine, so she "stops being addicted to this game". Few days afterwards, she changed hers without telling me anything. I just find it a little bit odd and maybe there's a reason to it. Btw, she has her friend list hidden, activities such as commenting or liking other people's stuff hidden.This is in period of LDR when she started meeting new people on college, and of course, it's not that I don't trust her, but my mind can get unsetteled. One more thing for latest example: first part of the day she'll be affectionate, and until now this didn't really happen - but later she'll respond with small talk from mobile chat in late hours and sometimes won't even tell me where she's at all day long. She didn't do it yet, but because she's so free in another city away from family, and starts going out a lot, my fear is about parties, drinking. It will complicate things, taking everything into account. She could feel like she doesn't have to tell me on her whereabouts, but this is just silly in LDR. Thats why it's not only RJ, its a fear what she might do under certain circumstances.
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A
female
reader, CindyCares +, writes (9 December 2013):
I could not agree more with YouWish . If we have to accept as a premise ( as you seem to be doing ) that sex SHOULD necessarily be meaningful, emotionally connected, carefully selected and not just recreational .... ( btw, not saying that 's a bad premise, just that other people may feel differently without, for that, being perverts ) ... then what you did with your casual sex partners is as dirty as what she did. In fact , maybe more, because you engaged in it by your willing preference, you don't have the excuse she might have of being subjected to peer pressure, being scared, wanting to " fit in ", not experienced enough to be assertive etc.etc.etc.
when you point your finger at somebody... one finger points at them, but three fingers point at you, have you noticed that ?
Anyway, I think there is no rational argument capable of convincing you. Because ALL RJ is irrational. It's in the family of OCDs. You either keep the OCD and get rid of the girl, or work seriously on getting rid of the OCD ( I am talking specialized professional help ) and keep the girl.
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A
female
reader, YouWish +, writes (9 December 2013):
Waaaait a second, hold on, back up!
You said this:
"I had larger number of partners, and few were no-attachment sex, but I didn't experience something so "dirty"."
If you had no-attachment sex with a large number of partners, what you did was just as "dirty" as what you ascribe to your girlfriend. See, *YOU* have compartmentalized your own past while scrutinizing hers. What makes you any less "filthy" than her? You thought less of what you were giving away than she did.
And for that matter, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth when you lament that she gave a BJ to someone for a throwaway reason of getting rid of him, yet you resent that you had to wait while other guys got her easier.
Which is it?? You cannot have it both ways! You can't play fast and loose and experimental with your sexual past while at the same time getting obsessive because she was anything close to how you were.
To be upset about her sexual past is to loathe your own. You need to accept that she took a sexual journey the same as you. Don't succumb to that double standard or you will blow up your relationship.
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reader, janniepeg +, writes (9 December 2013):
If she has a higher libido than you, then you would worry if she's satisfied and if one man is enough for her. Love is insecurity. When you chain something down it becomes your possession. Love is inconsistency. When something is constant you take it for granted and become stuck in a rut. Love is not analyzable. It is a living thing because in order for you to dissect it and study it like in a lab science, it has to be dead.
You have strong feelings towards this woman, that's for sure. You are resisting falling in love. You worry you won't get a good bargain out of it. Love is not a business transaction. The highest form of love is when you give unconditionally and not worry whether you get anything back. Love can sometimes be irrational. Sometimes it's peaceful and at other times you get neurotic. You either burn yourself out with all the thinking or you surrender. Whether she really loves you I would see if she is emotionally supportive of you.
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reader, dark_halcyon +, writes (9 December 2013):
dark_halcyon is verified as being by the original poster of the questionWhat you wrote lastly, well, its true. My mind is like this, and when you say: "If she's purely lust then you would worry does she really love you?" -Again maybe, but I hate the infinite number of maybe's, because besides potential OCD, I develop my career as a programmer, and have to deal with definite solutions. I end up going in loops mentally when it comes to dealing with unpredictable computer that is human psyche, either my own or other people's.As for lust, this is the first time that she has long term sexual relations, you can't really count described experience of hers as significant in this context, but I find myself wanting more than she does. Maybe my libido is higher, I don't know, or maybe women function differently. But there was a time when I asked about frequency, because we had sex generally once/twice a week, and answer was that she sometimes feel we have it to often and sometimes too less. Probably because I wanted it on every weekend, while she wanted to spend time in other ways as well. Yet on another occassion she said she wouldn't complain if we could do it everyday. She is the type who isn't good at voicing up her opinions clearly, and goes with the flow. Also to be said - there was pure lust as well, it ends up being great if I turn the right wheels, stimulate her correctly, but I've noticed this was especially true when she was drunk, to the point that once she gave me semi-public blowjob. All this together makes me wonder does she like to give blowjobs or not. There was a short period when she initiated few quickies in a row(which surprised me), but then there were times when she subtly refused my initiatives more than few times. Its very inconsistent in long-term.
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reader, dark_halcyon +, writes (9 December 2013):
dark_halcyon is verified as being by the original poster of the questionI like how you address my subject, its very helpful for discussion. It's not a typical worn out simpleton response to just "get over it, or break up" that many people use all over the place on internet.Because this is important stuff in life. I would say that relationships require best of you. Not many things in life will affect your psyche(ego/self) so blatantly, strip you naked to face the biological reality of our existence.You are on the right track, this is probably how it should be, a long screening process and learning, and it doesn't make me wrong to dwell on it, and she doesn't do anything wrong either. I don't have a reason to break-up, since we are both determined to spend life together - it would be just stupid to break the process that has to be completed before clear future unfolds.To some points you made - yes, I do not understand this. She was saying that she doesn't respect or appreciate parents or anyone from her family, but nothing to point on concrete problems. There isn't anything to point on anyhow, except that I believe it's a childish resent for authority still present at the age of 19, because they obviously are responsible to keep her in check at that age, and probably they lack communication and agreement world problems, no biggie. Hell, I know I have nothing in common with my family in that sense. I was like that, and that's the point: I'm a bit older. She does act responsible to parents though, but all of this could imply that she wants to push boundaries when "it stays in Vegas", so to speak. Of course this is something I'll screen for when it comes to relationship with person, because if you act only out of obligation but deep inside you want something else, then it can say plenty about how you will handle relationships in general. Regardless, she states that she has personal morals and values them.I also have bad experience with girls who "loved to travel and always experience new things, meet people", and they emphasized it a lot. Its like a typical thought pattern when they're young, but haven't experienced real work, had real trials and errors or made their own money, only college at most. It would seem like they couldn't appreciate what they do have until they got more mature and thoughtful. But let's not get into this, as said, it is typical, that is to say she is a normal, healthy young girl. No signs of deeper issues, just part of growing up.She is by nature introvert, doesn't handle pressure well, or drama, so she will rather "shut down" during face-to-face tensions than overreact. Only in darkest moments will she say that she doesn't like or trust people, or express some kind of personal gloom, but otherwise she has aura of optimism and, shall we say, "childish playfulness".I haven't mentioned on purpose that we are currently in LDR, because there would be unecassary discouragement and bashing. Also its not so distant, just another city because of college, we meet every weekend or two, and longer holidays, and its going well. She studies responsibly and doesn't really dwell on irresponsible party side of college life, even though she technically could at the moment, you know, away from parents.So one year impression is that she has many qualities as a person, and over such length of period when I haven't caught her in a relationship deal-breaker, I can't distrust her, but it will probably take bunch of experience to see what happens.People who think that you can 100% binary decide in the very beginning of relationship if it will be right or you should break off immediately generally don't comprehend my standpoint and carefulness, and that it is a large effort I invest. Btw, I myself have sort of separation/abandonment anxiety.
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reader, janniepeg +, writes (9 December 2013):
Really, what she did in the party was nothing outrageous. I would say that her mind is clearer than yours. I didn't notice how much you wrote because you story is so interesting. Now I reread it it's kind of exhausting. Your mind is like a unstoppable train. I think RJ is a form of OCD and this is more bothersome than what she did in the past, honestly. You would find things wrong in every single thing and try to link it to the past. Maybe she's still in the in love phase and wants to stay longer there. If she's purely lust then you would worry does she really love you? So maybe anything she does she can't win with you.
Maybe I am wrong but this is another perspective.
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reader, janniepeg +, writes (9 December 2013):
I know what you mean. I don't think you are judgmental either. I too did something that's questionable and made my dad warn me not to become a prostitute and a drug user. I did neither. There were still things I didn't tell my parents about but I moved on in life and found my own place in the world. I am successful today, proud mother, and as of today, celibate for a whole year and not worrying about another relationship. I am still open to love.
Unless it is a undiagnosed mental issue or past abuse, girls do grow out of the acting out phase. All you could do is not get married to her or impregnate her until you learn as much about her as possible. When there are emotional problems even small ones like shutting down not wanting to talk, they usually come from unresolved childhood issues, separation anxiety or abandonment issues. I would be curious about her childhood and how her relationships with her parents are like.
You would always be wary about people who had a different, crazier background than you and it's important to know when it's a big issue and when it's a false alarm. I don't blame you for worrying because there are indeed people who overlook stuff in the name of love and then regret later.
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reader, dark_halcyon +, writes (8 December 2013):
dark_halcyon is verified as being by the original poster of the questionAs said, I don't know what was it all about or how it looked like when it happened. Judging by the fact that there wasn't full-blown sex, and she didn't repeat it, while I got it all from her, I don't think this is "alpha fux beta bux", and I'm familiar with that concept, yes. Maybe she was curious but not ready, maybe it was non-consent, maybe it was apathic, I don't know.
What bothers my mind is if she would be doing something like that again, if I haven't come into play. She is very chaotic under surface for me to analyse.
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reader, janniepeg +, writes (8 December 2013):
2) If you had known that her wild past started at age 14 you would probably reconsider dating her.
4) I am considered a loose woman. Slept with men early but I made sure my first was my boyfriend. Perhaps it's peer pressure that made her want to lose virginity. There are parties just for that today.
5) I would only do something like that if his girlfriend knows and they are in an open relationship. I can't help someone cheat.
6) So on one hand you look down on dirty but on the other you wish you had more lust in your own relationship. You want your girlfriend to only lust on you. Perfectly understandable. The most common complaint from men with RJ is that she gave men things she doesn't give to the husband.
7) If you want to get over retroactive jealousy, a move to a different town might be necessary.
8) That's considered by some a fakery. When women go casual their moral values go out the window but only when they want a relationship they follow the rules about dating. To make sure everyone plays fair, everyone has to stand in line and wait. You don't feel like you were played fair.
There is a stereotype that alphas are good for f*king while betas are good for settling down and family. We alternate between being alphas and betas at times but not everyone could just switch roles effortlessly. Porn is a booming business because people are not flexible about being dominant and submissive when necessary.
The destructive cycle I see though, is that you lose confident and you doubt yourself and as a result she gets turned off by your confidence. You need to communicate with her your desires to have more lust in the relationship. Yes you want intimacy and true love but you did not sign up for an inhibition of passion. In order to do that she must not be ashamed of what she did at the beginning. A semi rape is one way she wanted to appear innocent. She doesn't need to turn off her wild side to be deemed a decent person.
Tell her everything you feel, including that when she plays "good wife" to you she's making you feel that she's taking you for a ride. She's taking value from you, getting a relationship from you but not offering you what you truly need, which is passion. She needs to learn how important it is for her to cater to your lustful side. If subtlety doesn't work, be blunt and tell her she is boring and you have a high standard and you are getting somewhat dissatisfied. Tell her you fantasize doing such and such with your most significant other and how that cements your love. Let her taste her own medicine of how insecurity feels.
Didn't understand what that online account/game account thing was about.
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reader, dark_halcyon +, writes (8 December 2013):
dark_halcyon is verified as being by the original poster of the questionSome good answers, but let me elaborate furthermore.To explain myself additionally;When it comes to RJ, I suffer from every aspect of it. Mentioning few and grouping them:MORE IRRATIONAL ASPECT:1) insecurity2) having dilemma to make a distinction between person that I know, and person that did this before we met. Kind of a paradox - until she told me this I actually was 99.9% convinced she was a virgin, more so because she emphasized he "inexperience". I do not see her as cheap, just looking at her you would never say she's capable of such things.3) My episodes are triggered by everything: pornography is a nasty one because when I masturbate, these images are there, and so I masochistically blend them with filth of porn, like I'm trying to resolve it by seeing it in head more vividly. In 99% my mind can't focus on anything else during masturbation.4) I don't like to deal with the fact that she didn't loose virginity in more normal way, and probably doesn't appreciate it very much. MOST of the girls do not have first experience to such an extreme.5) For some reason it bothers me that guy she gave a blowjob to had a girlfriend at the time. She told me so herself. 6) I had larger number of partners, and few were no-attachment sex, but I didn't experience something so "dirty".7) the fact that these guys can recall it and probably brag about how they "used some sluts", one of which will be my GF shortly after it happened.8) that I had to wait 2-3 months before we had intercourse, because she "cared about me seriously and wanted it to be special" + I am allegedly the "first person she ever loved, and started feeling for". Which I of course appreciate, but these guys had her easily. I know these are mostly my problems and no one can help me.MORE RATIONAL ASPECTS:1) She presents herself as a fair, trustworthy person who doesn't like injustice, and she's against cheating/ deception. She could be really worthy GF, but on the other hand, everything she's done defines her character in a way, so I think: if she was able to take such risks, I have to be careful, and be on a constant guard.2) back then, when I hinted the subject, she said she doesn't have STD's (but she wasn't thoroughly tested), and confidently said how protection was used, but.. NOT for blowjob. She was ignorant on the fact that oral can transmit some STD's too. 3) It also bothers me that she smoked cigarettes from the age of 14, had alcohol blackouts in history. She currently drinks in rare occasions and it's not excessively but it still makes me feel unpleasant if she has girls night out's. Also that she smoked weed, once when we were already in RS ( allegedly only "two puffs").So this is a constant enigma in my mind. On one side, she is intelligent person with many qualities, leading good academic life. Once she mentioned how she was naive in past, but you never know when deeply rooted flaws will be stimulated again. Add also - she said that she'd prefer polygamy if single (self-evident and "normal" worldview for a person who claims she requires intimacy to get involved? depends). I find her contradictive often, inconsistent on small things, and that bothers me. She'll be enthusiastic about something and say she'll do it, then she will just ignore it. Trivial things, but anyhow.Also, we're not that incompatible, for example I drink too, I had my sexual past too. The thing is you can only know yourself truly. Thus, no, I don't have an "inner slut" at the moment, I don't even imagine other girls really, without having her in mind. Its like I'm infatuated by this one. And one of my insecurities is a thought that she may mentally wander. You can never know. She used to comment on hot celebrities, for one thing. So, we have great sex and all that, but its not like she seems sexually crazy about me as I am for her. That is, she'll be very emotional during sex and intimate, but she doesn't express the real LUST like I do, so I end up seeming "horny all the time". Its complex, in short lines - I am insane for this person in pure sexual sense. While I do enjoy emotional sex with her, I would do anything, but she will block out if I go for casual things, and prefer more eye-contact/closeness than "dirtier" things. In beginning she gave more blowjobs, and even said she wants to practice as she is inexperienced, then it came out that she always has strong gag reflex, and despite discussion that she can avoid it in different ways, she doesn't seem so much into it. And yes, I ALWAYS take care for her orally. You see how RJ is triggered here? More so because I hold oral as highly intimate act.Thats why the fact that she had it casually bothers me, and if she really doesn't regret it (maybe the answer isn't black and white), I don't know how it goes with her claim that she needs true intimacy and time for having sex. What, she just places it in her "past" and she's now largely different person just because I entered equation? It's not that I judge her by making psychoanalysis, but I am terrified of getting played. Breakup is not an option until something really bad happens. I am invested in this girl, so my mind struggles with reality and fears. I have a kind of trauma, not only of being cheated on (which is a nightmare to me), but of loosing connection, loosing future, getting replaced, being treated like an easy option.Now, a bit off the main topic, but now that you have detailed background I would extend it to ask this: there is something which is kind of suspicous to me. When she made new account on social network, and we have put the RS status, she asked me for my password. Not without a reason, mind you, she's smarter than that, but because she played internet game and could use my account for resources. Then she offered her password in case I need anything like that. I still took it as a kind of trust gesture and something positive. Now after 2 months of being on college and meeting/adding new people, she plain out asked me to change my password because she doesn't want to be addicted to the game anymore. I told her OK, I'll do it when I won't be lazy. First thing that came to my mind is that she intelligently tries to find a reason in order to change her password. Well, after few days she did, without telling me anything. I know it's kind of cheesy to have each other's passwords, but screw it - if we did, and she suddenly changes her mind, isn't this a little bit strange when taking context into account?Thanks for your time.
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reader, janniepeg +, writes (8 December 2013):
What I believe is relationships last as long as you want them to last, as long as you feel your efforts are worth it and you can still be yourself comfortably without changing anything or forcing your beliefs out.
Orgies exist in human history. Sex had always been natural, beautiful and a celebration of life. It still exists now in certain tribes, up until Christianity and the agricultural period determined the distribution of wealth that segregates how people lived and marriages were established as a business transaction. The missionaries failed to convert the Amazon tribe. The chief said to the missionary, thanks but no thanks but we are fine living with the unknown about the afterlife. One missionary even got deconverted and became an atheist himself.
Now love seems to be the basis of modern marriages. The fear of cuckoldry had been passed down to you so I can't say retroactive jealousy is completely irrational. There is a fear of being compared to other men, a fear that she will find monogamy boring, a fear that she will leave you for a more exciting guy. But guess what, the internal promiscuous "slut" is in you just as well.
I think many people have some form of retroactive jealousy. Most manage it by not thinking about it. The ones that have it worst are the ones that need to probe into details.
There had been numerous posts of long time married women having a past. The majority of these women are good wives and mothers. If they are bad then it makes it easier for the husband to leave but most of the time the past didn't change who she is at the core so the husband can't justify leaving and therefore feeling stuck. It's worse if you have a lot of children. Many men who didn't score a lot of women compensate by the number of children. That's about the dumbest thing they could do to close any exit or escape plan.
If you are asking something about whether a past determines who a person is, unless there is an addiction or a mental health issue, there is no correlation that a person that had fun in the past could not be relationship material as much as you could.
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reader, YouWish +, writes (8 December 2013):
I'm glad you gave so much detail in your post. That's actually refreshing to me, because it gave me a good context of what's going through your mind in a more complete way.
I'm not sure this is garden variety RJ. Make no mistake, you've got some RJ going on primarily because of your obsession with her past before she met you.
But she lied to you in saying it was a quick one night stand but then you find out months in that it was a 5-person orgy which is an extremely dangerous activity which in terms of disease certainly CAN affect you.
You are manifesting the RJ because you've been pressing for details the whole time. She should have taken an STI test to make sure she was disease free, because that's extremely dangerous behavior.
I also understand you being upset about the blowjob. Yes, all of this happened before she met you, so no, she didn't cheat on you and no, she doesn't answer to you. But I get that you look at sexual activities differently than she does. You don't like the fact that she gave away her body to "get rid of them". That doesn't sound believable to me, because she planned this excursion knowingly. Maybe she was having buyer's remorse and went through the motions to extricate herself from the situation, which I can buy.
Bottom line, you have compatibility questions, and you're nervous about how much more she'll reveal, since she misrepresented the nature of her sexual history with you in the beginning.
Her comment that she doesn't regret her past is contrary to her saying that she did things to "get rid" of the other members. If I were in her position, I'd bitterly regret taking my clothes off in the first place if it had turned out to be some sort of "semi-rape" situation.
So you have a choice now. You can either decide to live with her as she is and with the decisions she's made, or you can break up with her. It is a compatibility question, and a valid one. No, she didn't do anything wrong. You will either have to live with it and fight being obsessive, or you won't be able to.
Serious RJ sometimes carries the symptoms of one partner shaming or emotionally abusing the partner with the sexual history. You're not doing that, and that is good.
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reader, Lieutenant  +, writes (8 December 2013):
You are the one in the relationship with her. How are we supposed to know someone we've never met and the only information we have is what you have given, to make a decision as to whether or not they are good "relationship material"?
Why were you asking her about her past sexual escapades if you really did not want to know about them? Unless you are a virgin and have never received a blow job, you have no right to judge her for what she did in her past. She's with you now, if she didn't want to be, she'ld be gone.
If you feel that you are both too different to be in a relationship together, spare yourself the drama and the potential waste of time and effort and move on.
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