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age
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*erchant
writes:Hi, I am married with a beautiful wife and 2 kids. Recently my wife has become much more demanding sexually, with us often making love 3 or 4 times a day. Although, you can imagine I am delighted with this, there is a fly in the ointment. She says that she wants to experiment with other men and would like to have sex with others, including friends. She says she is more than happy for me to do the same. But I am not that I want this. I know that she has already heavy petted with a colleague. I want to save my marriage, but don't want to lose her. What do I do? Reply to this Question
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reader, anonymous, writes (11 June 2007): I think the two of you deserve each other. Your relationship is built on getting a false sense of self esteem and security based on others opinions and you manifest this in having random sex with strangers and so called friends. This is a drug, you are addicted to sex, it might as well be cocaine, you don't like yourself without it....how awful for you to need that crutch just to get through the days of your lives.
I am glad you feel better about yourself than you have in years, but my guess is you are going to crash and burn and hit bottom when you realize how empty your life has become...You do not know real love, and I am not sure you or your wife are capable of it....you sound like empty shells and I hope that you continue with your counseling and find out the reason for the hole in your souls....I am not happy about your solution of having sex to make your wife jealous, how immature, how old are the both of you anyway....I hope you did not expect a congratulatory atta boy from me at your lastest....you are on your own with this one.
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reader, Merchant +, writes (9 June 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionWell where do I start! Have long since come off the anti depressant which made me feel far worse. I have gone to counselling. This has been really useful. However, the real change has been within me. Suddenly, I have felt the need to take lovers. Already, I have had sex with one lady and another lady is next on the cards.
I have almost found it like an addiction. Never really thought of myself as good looking. But I know I love women and they like me. Really feel the need for women to tell me that I am a 'fantastic' lover, that I am an 'Amazing' kisser. It is almost like a drug. Feel addicted to the feeling of getting to know and love another. I am really shocked! Am I a male Slut!
All of this has been done under a backdrop of my wife knowing and even approving of my sexual relationships. So far she has done nothing, and seems even more interested now I am having sex elsewhere. Sex seems to be everywhere. I told my counsellor about it...she opened mouthed...But we talked about strong women, control, excitement, am I doing it for me or to make her jealous. The honest truth is that I feel fantastic about myself...for the first time in ages.
Now it is my wife who looks at the phone thinking what text I have received. She tuts when I go on the e-mail to chat to a whole phalanx of girls I am chatting up. But we are honest. She knows I went out yesterday to have...sex... But as she said I come back to her.
Would be interested to know what you all think. I know it sounds far fetched, even male fantasy, but this is the reality I am inhabiting. Suppose many men would think I am lucky...some friends have said…What is your secret? But the truth is I just love women.
Last thing to note...and I am not proud of it. Both the partners I am being amorous with are married. Feel the tut-tuts. I do think if their partners, but I know I make them happy. Is there anything wrong with that?
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reader, Merchant +, writes (16 May 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThanks for the advice Rythmnandblues2. For the record, I agree. Glad to say that everything is looking much rosier. Me and my wife are getting on much better. We are also back to having an awful lot of sex. One shouldn't complain. She has decided that we should both work through a 'being assertive' workbook, with the prospect of more counselling.
At the moment, she has climbed down (so to speak) on the sex with others, although I suspect, that her hormones still have not ruled it out. At present, though there is a calm peace for the better, as we get use to our new roles. We are beginning to talk more, broaching issues about the sex and other area we both need to address.
Nonetheless, I thank this website for offering me a sounding board. And for all the untrained observations, It has helped me get things in perspective. For that I thank you all.
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reader, anonymous, writes (12 May 2007): Dear Merchant,
Although your journal here of your marriage is interesting in a vouyeristic way, my recommendation and sincere hope for you is that you will stop writing here for support for your views on what is happening in your relationship and for advice from untrained although objective observing aunts.
Now that you two are in counseling, you need to focus on the work and the guidance of your therapist to get you through this rough patch in your marriage and to resolve your relationship issues. To go outside of that dynamic will surely keep you stuck as your writing clearly shows that you are just that, stuck.
If you need to unload your feelings as you do here on this site, instead, buy a beautiful journal and write them down daily, and as you get through this go back and re-read your thoughts and you will see how far that you have progressed in your thinking and in resolving your marriage problems.
Do not rely on the aunts to tell you what they think you should do, or to comment on your feelings, they are just that your feelings, they aren't facts, they are not reality, they are your perceptions about what is going on, and very valid because you feel them. We as aunts care and can help you with basic things, but cannot begin to dissect your marriage and give you positive constructive criticism that will help your therapy, at this point we are merely interfering with that if we continue to advise you while you are in counseling.
So, please stick with it, protect what you say there from the outsiders in this situation (family, friends, agony aunts) and do the work there that you are there to do. It won't be easy, but it will help change you and change your life for the better.
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reader, deejuliet  +, writes (12 May 2007):
 I am glad to hear about the positive things that came out of the counciling session. It sounds like you two are connecting a little better. Yes, jobs take us away from loved ones quite a bit. We cant all be lucky enough to work from home or only part time. Most people have to work a full 40 or more work week, and most dont get summers off as a teacher does. I think her expectations in that way may be unrealistic.
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reader, Merchant +, writes (10 May 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionSome positives to feed back. For the first time since all this has blown up, we made love. She was understandably anxious about it. As previously I had not been able to perform on a few occasions for the first time in our marriage. Fortunately, it was very pleasurable for both of us. Hope this marks the start of the end of what we have been going through, but understand that one swallow does not make a summer.
As for my job, she thinks I am a 'perfectionist, workaholic', who spends too much preparing my teaching to the exclusion of her, the kids and my personal friendships. At present I am authoring some educational textbooks, but still have to go into school for two days a week for the money. £200pd. However, even this is not good enough, as she believes that I agreed just to give up my job in April. However, have to realistic although her web design company is doing ok, it not giving us enough money to survive.
Just wondering about jobs etc. I always say to her that the reality is that jobs tend to get in the way of relationships and teaching is no different from other occupations. Indeed, one of the real benefits of teaching is that it has given me quality time with my kids during holidays. Think this is why she believes that the kids have done better out of it than her!!
Yes, I admit I work hard, that I am conscientious, and have attempted to achieve promotion (until recently was Head of Sixth Form), but think that this is not so bad. My salary has been useful and it has also allowed her to have a career too.
Still think that she wants to control me rather too much, and I should not feel guilty over my job. Also believe that me giving up teaching (although I have a great opportunity, created by me) to write books, sums up the situation.
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reader, deejuliet +, writes (9 May 2007):
What did the councelor have to say? And you still have never made it clear how your job as a teacher causes her to be neglected. Does she not want you to work at all? How will you get by then? You mentioned in a previous post how you had to work 2 days a week because you had no money. And she thinks this is too much? I just think I am missing something here.
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reader, Merchant +, writes (9 May 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionWent to counselling on Tuesday. In England, you go initially for an initial appointment. This then leads to the prospect of more meetings. Nonetheless, you get 50 minutes to start off with.
Was disappointed with meeting. My wife claims to see no problems with our marriage and my insistence that there is a problem - problematic.
She wants to see the control issue, as one of my own making. She is hurt that I feel it, but believes it to be in 'my own head' and from 'issues that you have'.
Furthermore, the 'trust' issue cropped up. She believes that just because nothing has happened, that trust cannot be an issue. However, as I reminded her, although I trust her, it does not stop her believing that she would like to experiment with other partners. Although, she now comments that although she might have wanted to do this in the past, the difference between fantasy and reality has cut in.
I just feel very confused. Hurt and insistent that my view of her has changed forever. Wonder if this is an over reaction- do I need to take a reality check?
Want my relationship to work, with kids etc, but wonder if everything can ever be the same. Told her that 'when she clicks her fingers - I come running! She not keen on this analogy, seeing my job as a source of 'neglect'. Think we need to further pare our feelings to see what is going on.
What do you people think?
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reader, deejuliet +, writes (8 May 2007):
Good luck on your counceling today! I sure hope it goes well! Having an outside, unbiased, professional look at the situation will be very helpfull, I think. Sometimes you need someone outside the situation to clue you into what is happening and a councelor is a great way to get some much needed input. Please keep us posted!
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reader, Merchant +, writes (8 May 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionWe go to counselling today, so last night told her that I have a big problem with her controlling me. She was shocked, and I commented that at the moment I cannot promise that counselling will solve this issue. I may have to leave the marriage. Can a leopard change its spots etc?
However, resolved to give it my best shot, and for her to think about her role in this situation. Explained that the 'swinging' element had crystallised how controlled I felt. And it had made me literally and metaphorically impotent. Need for my own sanity to escape this and work on my self-belief and confidence. Clearly, the last 3 weeks have not provided much of this.
Feel much more in control, not taking anti-depressants. However, we are both anxious about today. I will feedback what is said in the counselling. It will be interesting to see how she justifies her behaviour. I really think that she thinks I will be her doormat for the rest of my days. Well I won't!!!
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reader, anonymous, writes (8 May 2007): I don't think it is the case that you are controlling your wife. She is quite surely controlling you. She is also making your child confront issues by prepping him/her (sorry can not recall whether is a son or daughter)about things which he/she is not equipped to deal with, in order to smoot the way for herself.
I find it all selfish in the extreme and it may mess him or her up. I do believe that true intimacy is a thing which has to be worked upon, I think at its best it is a very personal experience. Lust is another thing entirely. Whatever you learn through all this I hope is worth it. When I read some of the replies that you have I wonder about people. I was once told by my psychologist that whatever two people consent to, and she meant truly consent to, is fine. I think it is, what has worried me most about your notes is that I am not sure you consent, whether you have been weighing this up, or persuading yourself. I know you are not happy with your wife for this situation, perhaps if you go along with it you may find someone you prefer. That will be fine, maybe this is what it is supposed to do for you. Perhaps the friend is setting this up because she really likes you - who knows.
At the end of it I hope that you are happy, emotionally fulfilled, not bitter, that your trust in people and yourself does not get damaged, that you do not spend too much emotional currency for nothing.
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reader, Merchant +, writes (5 May 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionNot sure it will work with us. However, I am prepared to have an open mind. May be I need to learn to let go and trust her. Just wonder what it would say about our relationship? How she will cope just 'having sex' and how I will cope 'just fucking'?
I really thought that sex was more spiritual that that. But perhaps that is just a social construct. Does it matter? Are we primeval? Interesting to note the difference between males and females here. In many ways males are conditioned to just have as much sex as possible. It is more in the female’s interest to limit partners. But there is no doubting that society is changing, and that women want out of this patriarchy.
I still have a 'fuck buddy' session booked for next Saturday, so I am going to have to decide whether to take the plunge or 'put my foot down'. If I go ahead, I am not in a position to take the moral high ground, am I. Could be a liberating experience or could open up a can of worms that could destroy us. Decision….decisions. Interesting to note that my wife’s friend has been instrumental in arranging this session.
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reader, anonymous, writes (5 May 2007): We are in tehsame boat, 3 kids and she really would like to go out. She has yet to find a FB, but about 7 years ago we had a play mate who was good for both of us. Right now becuase I do love her and want her to have nad feel what she needs for her to be out gett'n some strange is fine by my and us.
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reader, Merchant +, writes (4 May 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionWhat is the point of being moody? No, I just get on with it. As I have already said, sex or the lack of it is certainly not the issue here. Although more recently the sex has dried up, before that it was almost constant. Too much. However, I am not childish about it. I try not to control and not be over bearing. As for the purse strings, throughout our marriage it has alternated (who earns the most). We nevertheless, have a joint account and share everything equally. So no one is in control. We think that this works out the best. Have arranged to go to counselling on Tuesday, and as she said to me, she wants to get through this, just as I helped her get through life when she was depressed. We have too much love to give each other to give up now.
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reader, Merchant +, writes (4 May 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionI'm not sure how I control her? She does what she wants all the time. Sex is an example of this. Everything plays to her tune. She wants it, she gets it. I want it, I don't even bother asking. However, I am not perfect. She has resentment issues I am sure, just like all partners. However, is this fair way for her to get her pound of flesh? Does she really want to destroy me?
My main crime is having a career. I suppose this is controlling? Yes I work hard, but that is what you have to do to get on. I know I have neglected her, and yes I suppose it was for money, power and vanity. Nonetheless, it did provide assistance to her. It was me that looked after the kids when she had her highly paid career.
She doesn't want to know, thinks that I should just concentrate 'on getting better'. I just want her to tell me what it is I have done? She won't though. Getting desperate.
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reader, Merchant +, writes (4 May 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionA bit non-plussed by this post. Naturally enough, I don't think I am the controlling one. We all try to control at sometimes in our life, but everyone knows that control just does not work. It breeds resentment and jealousy. In my circumstance, I believe I am being controlled. I am being told what to do and not surprisingly I don't like it. Of course, there are reasons for this. I am sure that sometimes I am controlling. Not sure that my wife would actually say this though! I will ask her. However, I take your point. Every partner must try to ensure that they don't control. It is just human nature. My wife works at home, has a horse, indeed, has much that allows her to be her. she has close relationships with her relatives, we moved up here to make sure that was the case. Nevertheless, think it might be an issue. So it is a well observed point. However, it is never that easy. Do you not think she is controlling?
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reader, Merchant +, writes (3 May 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionAs I explained before at the moment she has done nothing but heavy pet with a customer(friend) who she is writing a website for. However, she has made it plain that she would like to and she would like me to have sex with other women. (‘If it makes me happy'). She has even gone as far as telling my son (15) that she wants to have sex with others, but 'she still loves daddy'. I do really believe that she loves me, but clearly there are some very contradictory messages being sent out here.
The other issue is if I say to her 'I don't want you to sleep with anyone' in essence I am almost encouraging her to do so. As she explained to me, if I am being accused of it by you, I might as well do it anyway. She also complains that 'she is going to lose her friend because of me'.
Another factor is the anti depressants. She took these during post natal depression, and remembers that I was less than sympathetic with her plight. I suppose, this is true, but it is always difficult to have a partner who is unwell, and a young baby to cope with.
As to standing up to her. It is difficult. I don't want to put my kids through what I went through when my parents divorced. I do love her, and despite everything I think that she loves me. Although, she did comment that 'I wasn't very lovable at the moment'.
I hope that counselling will help us, but I am aware that she is manipulative, and will somehow make herself seem the saint in this situation. She also wants to make out that my illness is making me unreasonable, and deluded. For example, she believes that it was only after I agreed to her being able to 'swing' that she phoned around her friends offering them sex. I believe that came first and then she told me. However, in essence, does it matter? The mere fact she wanted to do that in the first place indicates problems.
As for allies, I have to admit, I have not got many. My job has dominated my life to the exclusion of anything beyond friends at work. The only other friend has been put off by my wife indicating that she would like me to sleep with her. So I don't suppose you can blame her! I have contacted her, and I hope she will talk to me. Think she might be an issue. She is only a friend, but my wife didn't like my relationship. However, it was only friendship as we just click. My Dad is dead, my mother doesn't speak to me, and no I'm all alone with this one.
As for my life now, yes it clearly is not perfect. However, between the fights I think I do love her. She said to me last night that 'we are soul mates'. Think she cares, but I am still all over the place. I am angry, for example, last night coming back from school. I have to go in two days a week to finish off the exam season because we have no money. I was annoyed that she was out with her horse, whilst I don't have any free time.
She very keen to get me back on anti depressants. May be they will help, but they are really only going to cover up the cracks in my life, they are no answer.
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reader, anonymous, writes (2 May 2007): I agree, you really need to be the man and put your foot down, tell her you won't take her cheating even if it is in front of you, tell her to think of her kids, she may not think her behavior affects them but it does....this is not the behavior of a good mother who wants to raise her kids to be self competent adults....if your kids found out she was sleeping around, it would confuse them and devestate them and shake up their very world, a lack of security for sure.
It is not great to raise kids in a loveless marriage, I don't think she knows how to love you or anyone else for that matter.....if you have to do so, pack up the kids and move out, you could prove she is an unfit mother, document everything, rally your allies and fight for your kids if your marriage has nothing left in it to fight for.
But until you stand up for who you are at the core, she will never respect you, and you will never know the depths she will go to stay in your life and marriage.
What is your other choice really, to live this miserable one-sided life? I think not.
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reader, anonymous, writes (2 May 2007): Take a break away from it. See how much better you feel without this and her. This is about power. Be careful you don't get addicted to this behaviour. I see you as behaving as a person in the weaker position, almost getting ready to take the pills, almost accepting her friend coming around to get to know you. It is as though she is forcing you bit by bit on a wierd and torturous, dominated, erotic journey. You seem to be getting weaker and weaker. I don't see you getting angry and I don't see you putting your foot down. I see you resisting and accepting, resisting and accepting. Slowly being pushed where she wants you. I hope you can get out of this, the only way you will is to take back your power, but I am not sure you really want to or can, because if you did, you would have already.
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reader, anonymous, writes (2 May 2007): Take a break away from it. See how much better you feel without this and her.
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reader, Merchant +, writes (2 May 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThink that you are right Rhythmandblues. Up at 5, because I cannot stand to be in the same room as her. She tossing and turning with anger with me, I can feel it. It's palpable. Beyond the texts what have I done to her apart from try to love her?
Feel alone, tearful and frightened. Sure she would say...'you are ill, take the tablets'. Well I might be, but she has to ask why I need to take them at all!
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reader, anonymous, writes (2 May 2007): It is just more of the same bs....she is trying to get you used to the idea of swinging, by inviting her friend over for you to shag....what a pathetic woman......go to counselingn on your own if you have too. ...Maybe your therapist can help you let her go.
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reader, Merchant +, writes (1 May 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionHad another row with her tonight. I used the word manipulative (she was not keen) on the phrase, but I stand by it. She reiterated that nothing was going to happen, and just because she might want it, it didn't mean it would. (If you get that!!), not sure that I did. Told her about the text's. Not surprisingly, she was mightily pissed off. Said that that it wouldn't happen again. Commented that she was more than welcome to see my e-mails, what she got to hide? Suppose that is not the point though. Trust needs to be trust. She is also not so sure about the timing off things. She cannot refute, that the swinging is her idea. And yes, she says she regrets telling me. She thought I might think of it as a good idea too. At first, I went along with it, but that was it really, I wasn't really happy. And then all the I want to sleep with friends bit. Although she believes that she set this up after me going along with it. Anyway, after our 'talk'. She has said she will go to couple counselling on the proviso that I go to counselling on my own if it is considered necessary. She still insistent that I go onto medication, although I am not keen, and think any depression is merely the result of all of this. Meanwhile, her 'friend' has been invited around to get to know me!! As I said to her if I had felt up one of her friends, would she like it if I invited her around!!And, her female friend has invited me to shag her, ultimately so my wife can justify her decision to sleep with him. You got all that...not sure I have either. HELP!!!
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reader, Merchant +, writes (1 May 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the question18 years of marriage and two kids, one only four, suggests that we are not that toxic. I agree that the situation she is asking me to put up with is toxic and unfair. As I said in another post we are not possessions, but their needs to be trust. Obviously, I don't trust her, although at the moment, I think she has done nothing for me to not trust her. However, I suspect she will, as sex is at the moment like a drug to her.
As for decency, yes I think I want to be decent in this situation. May be it is mind games, but I don't want to hate her, and want to love her. The complexities of relationships are never as clear cut as you suggest though. Loyalty is fine, but it can be boring, and as for being faithful well it is a two way street. I have been faithful, but it doesn't make any difference to whether our relationship will fail or work.
At the moment, I am very skittish, I even find myself reading her e-mails and texts. Is this honest or decent? But I just cannot stop myself. I feel like I am betraying her! I know for example, that one friend is almost constantly pestering her for sex, so far she has resisted, but I feel she will not be able to resist. Do I tell him I know? I suspect that she has told him that I am happy with her having sex with her (however, I am not).
You must remember that you are missing her voice from this conversation. I hope I have not made her out to be all bad! Of course, if I didn't care, I would not be writing this at all! I want to love her not to let others love her instead. However, I really think that she believes she can have both, sex with me and with others.
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reader, anonymous, writes (1 May 2007): Dear Merchant, you need to read your last post and dissect it line by line. You and this woman are toxic for each other....actually she is a toxic person, and you are a victim here if you chose to stay and put up with her behavior. Keira is wrong, I have read many of her posts and more often than not her advice makes me shudder with shame and trepidation at the way her mind ticks and hums, she is bordering on sociopathic ideology, go ahead, give me a poor rating for telling it like I see it.
Your wife falls into this mind trap as well, she really is sick and off track, she is not living a life that others would be envious of, it has nothing to do with Society. She does not respect other people's boundaries, she is clearly a sexual addict, if it were not for the sex, she would chose another drug of choice.
Chosing to go to therapy has nothing to do with your gender, it has everything to do with strength of character and admitting that you need some help to process what is happening to you and your reaction to it.
I feel certain that you will in time walk away from your marriage, there is nothing to salvage here in my opinion. Your wife needs to get help, and she won't as she thinks you need to "feel better" so that you all can proceed with a swinging lifestyle. Your reaction is not to feel better you are disgusted and depressed, it shows that you have character, and your gut won't let you accept this from her. Listen to it, you aren't so in love with her that you need to compromise your character, soul and morals. Love is not dependence, it is truly a choice, you have already made the choice to be a decent human being, a loyal faithful husband, and a teacher and good father, and a husband. If she choses to no longer honor the marital bond, then get out, as there is nothing left to do.
What amazes me is you think your job as a teacher has emotionally stunted you and has something to do with the quality of your relationship with her, obviously she has played so many mind games with you, that you are even doubting your choice of a career. I can't think of a job that is more important to society as that of teacher.
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reader, anonymous, writes (1 May 2007): As time passes you will find your way. The final thing to say is that what she does will decide your relationship. If she tries to persuade you and goes ahead, I think your own feelings will guide you. They are all you have and all you need.
Your reaction towards her so far is a big indication. Why not just tell her that if this continues, although you do not want to at the moment, you will leave. I think this is a reasonable truth. Then wait see what happens. I hope she doesn't have a breakdown. Keep the diary.
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reader, Merchant +, writes (1 May 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionShe see's it as merely sex, nothing else. Why would she need to be counsselled about her sex drive, it's natural. Despite all my efforts I am clearly not able to satisfy these, she needs more sex and greater experience. This I think is a big issue, she hasn't had that much experience, beyond me, and she likes the sound of it. However, just because it sounds good doesn't necessarily make it without risk. At present I am flinching just at the prospect of her coming near me, let alone having sex. It feels like I've gone from the sublime to the ridiculous. Indeed, all this has had such an impact on me that for the first time, I was not able to perform as it were.
As I have told her, my trust and exclusivity with her has been destroyed. And she can protest as much as she wants about 'stopping all this' until 'your better', nothing is going to change this without some serious soul searching and yes therapy. Isn't it usually the woman who asks for therapy. It feels like a role reversal and how!
As for the manipulation, I am sure she would not believe that she is being manipulative, just assertive. Having said that hawking herself around to her friends without my knowledge is Ughhh. I shudder to think of what they must think of me! Yet, If she is telling me the truth, why should I feel bad about myself.
As an update on my situation, I have had a really bad reaction to the anti depressant I was on, so I have stopped it. I am not sure taking them is going to make me think clearly. I felt like I was in an echo chamber. The saddest thing about all of it is that my closest female friend, will barely talk to me (I would usually go and talk to her about all this) because, my wife wrote an e-mail suggesting that we should get together.
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female
reader, deejuliet +, writes (30 April 2007):
I am very concerned by her saying she refuses to go to therapy because it is your problem, not hers. That right there tells me that it is indeed her problem, not yours. She claims it is your depression and your problem, yet I think she may have some serious issues that need to be addressed. Your marriage is suffering and that is definately her problem. You definately need to get into therapy and if she truly does love you and wants to make this work, then she will go with you. If not, then go yourself anyway, but I have my doubts if this can be saved all by yourself. To also claim that the need to swing is because of her hormones is baloney, especially if you are having sex with her so often. There are other, true reasons here for her desire to swing and until she faces them and confesses them you can not deal with the real issues. That she wants to have sex with other partners, but 'does not want to share your prowess' is unfair. If she gets some nooki, so do you! And she was finding partners before you even said it was ok! Urgh! So many problems with this whole situation. Many couples are able to swing and remain happy together. Many couples are able to have polyamorous relationships and remain happy together. I do not think this is one of those cases.But I dont think swinging or not is really the issue here. She is being manipulative and abusive. Been there, done that. I can write the book on it. I had a lot of the same problems with my ex husband. Notice I said EX.
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male
reader, Merchant +, writes (30 April 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionReal difference between the views - some beseeching me to let her have her desires, whilst other posts seem certain that she is manipulating me in the extreme. Expect the answer is somewhere in the middle. Clearly, she wants to have her cake and eat it as it where. Most Human Beings do though. What I have to work out is whether I can cope with this behaviour and whether or not it will destroy me.
Given my present state of miind, I expect the latter. However, I don't think that she is necessarily not concerned with my well being, more that her sexual desires have driven over my feelings instead.
I am not sure that she is unwell, just being selfish. And I have to admit that men are also often selfish to the preclusion of their partners. My job as a teacher has for too long stunted our emotional and sexual well-being. It just seems strange that just as I am leaving this job, this blows up. I suppose, it is devine retribution. It is easy to see me merely as the victim, but life is more complex that this.
There in lies the problem, psychologists can talk to you and help you I am sure, but ultimately, it is up to the two concerned to sort it out. I wish I just had the confidence to call her bluff. However, I am really in love with her, we have two children and we are both the products of broken homes.
I just hope that I don't end up using the notebook you talk about. However, on occasions I find disgust and hatred in my heart and no love at all.
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reader, anonymous, writes (30 April 2007): I have been where you are in many ways and I have some things to say, which I hope you will consider, but I hope it will not be too strong. Do remember that this situation can be put back in your control if you have the courage to face it and make a stand, but you will have to be prepared to risk, develop and face issues.
I have realised late in life that when a person really loves you, they would not do a thing to knowingly hurt you. They would not harm a hair on your head. The don't just say "I love you" in order to get you to to what they want, it comes from everything they say and do.
I now have someone who loves me and I am so lucky. As well as being friends, we have a great sex life. We do loads of role play, including pretending to be other people, but it is quite clear that he does not want to share me and I do not want to share him. When one person takes power over another and starts forcing them along a certain line there is no balance and it becomes abuse.
I escaped from an abusive marriage and sex was a weapon used against me too. I remember being brainwashed into thinking I was imagining things or being unreasonable and it took therapy for me to realise how I had been brainwashed, groomed and made powerless so that the other person had all the control.
I was too afraid to do anything about my situation. The hardest thing about it was that it was, for once in my life, completely CRUCIAL to put myself first. I ALWAYS put other people first and it made it really hard to defend myself.
You have different views of what makes you happy, hers is taking over and what bothers me most is that her desire to swing has seemed more important than your physical or mental wellbeing. You, who she is meant to love and care for above everyone and everything. Will it be at all costs, even if you have to take anti-depressants for her to get her way? Is what she wants the only thing that matters?
While some people can, it appears, agree to swing and survive this happily, I see that you can not. I could not. Neither could many people. She does not care about that. Your happiness is a price worth paying for her to get her so-called needs met.
You are so afraid to lose her that you have considered trying to go along with it. She says she loves you and thinks it will be enough to get what she wants. It is possible that three is some huge misunderstanding and that she feels neglected. It is possible that she is unbalaned or unwell.
How excruciating to think she is offering friends, not only her own body for sex - she is offering yours. The thought is shrivelling me into a knot of disgust on your behalf. Even though nothing has yet happened (?) I would already be finding it hard to forgive this stuff if I were you. I can imaging it would feel as though she already has been unfaithful.
I do not think under any circumstances that you should comply with her desires because I think it will be a devastating experience for you. Your wife is trying to persuade you that it is a normal thing to do. WELL IT IS NOT FOR YOU. She is willing to gamble your relationship away on a matter of indulgance and greed. What does that say do you think. Something is very wrong.
You have got to find willpower and an ability to make decisions that you can have total confidence in. Go and see a psychologist, it is what made the difference for me. Mine showed me how to build myself up, was with at evey stage of working things out, helped me see things clearly and I found huge strength as well as confiration and confidence in my own feelings.
Don't let yourself get so paralysed by fear that you do nothing. If you really need to know that you did everything you could - put yourself in another's hands - it is very hard work so don't think otherwise - find the path that will get you through. It may be that you decide to stay with her and find a way to do that, it may be to leave. Interesting thought: if you left and she had to do without the nice things in life she may realise that she really only wants to be with you. Maybe you might be interested.
Housekeeping: Keep a diary of your conversations in case you want to fight for custody - you may need them in court (hopefully you won't. You can also use them when you see the psychologist (consider seeing a woman- it may be easier on you).
It is going to take one awful lot to make her re-evaluate this and for you to forgive her. Your wife is very lucky to have someone who is trying so hard. You are not so lucky. Very best of luck and take back some power, it is really important.
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female
reader, Keria +, writes (30 April 2007):
I am sorry to hear you are depressed, but really the problem is that so many people have a wrong view of love. There is nothing wrong with your wife wanting to get pleasure in this way. Society says it's wrong, and we learn to believe it. However, she is right, and society is wrong.
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reader, anonymous, writes (30 April 2007): Well I do have someone who loves me and I've never really asked him because I just know from how he treats me etc. He is not my husband as I am single but we have a partnership together for many years. I have been married and thought that was love, constantly trying all the time to be patient, supportive when I didn't understand him sometimes. With this relationship, we know one thing, we are the best of friends, we are the first to talk to each other about anything and we are friends...beyond what we do in the bedroom. We are just really good friends who regard and respect each other immensely. We don't have to ask why, we just know and can see it in each other in how we communicate, interact and support one another. And yes we do say the words, and we mean it.
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male
reader, Merchant +, writes (30 April 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionIt wasn't said with a caveat, but now you come to mention it, perhaps I will ask her why she loves me. Deep stuff though! Can you really tell me that you all know why your partners love you?
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reader, anonymous, writes (30 April 2007): Material things? What does she mean? If you bought her or she bought herself 5 pairs of Jimmy Choo shoes or designer handbags would that stop her from thinking/wanting/or asking you to swing. Did you ask her what she meant by that and why indeed she loves you? Can you let us know a bit more?
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male
reader, Merchant +, writes (29 April 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionSpoke to wife today, and asked her the question. Does she love me or not? She says that she loves me. Although she also says that she loves the material things too!!I still think that we can grow together, we just need to focus on our relationship rather than her shagging all her friends! Happy to have loads of sex with her, but equally aware that lots of sex doesn't neccesarily mean that you are in a good and wholesome relationship.
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male
reader, Merchant +, writes (29 April 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionUnfortunatley, I think your right. This is what I really believe, she tells me not, but all her actions betray otherwise. Suffering with tablets, she does not seemed even concerned. Even more depressed after this post.
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male
reader, Merchant +, writes (29 April 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionDeep down I suspect that what you put I believe in. However, she tells me that she loves me. Why should I doubt that. Nontheless, I think it puts 'trust' on the back burner. I find myself wanting to look on her phone, get her e-mail password etc, and it is becoming all encompassing.
I don't think this is healthy. And I as I said to her, this cat is out of the bag. She says, that she won't do anything until I am completely happy with it, if at all. But can I believe her. She has ample opportunity to shag as many people as she wants. I know it, she knows it.
I asked her to go to counselling and in particular sex therapy with me. She tells me I have the problem, not her. Its just her hormones, not her talking. We have great sex, why bother getting counselling she asserts. Well on that basis, why trade me on for another? Or share me. Indeed, she says that she does want to share my prowess. Much as I am flattered, I not sure I want that, although not positive.
Thanks for this post, it is very different to the others have had read, I suppose I like it because it chimes with my own thoughts, (well, some of them).
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reader, anonymous, writes (29 April 2007): Hi, you may want to read through the advice by the one aunt telling you how much fun it will be to get the big picture on what type of person she is and what her views on life are.
If you are getting depressed in this marriage, and your wife is telling you it is your head that is not on straight, then I pity you that you are letting her manipulate and control you in this way.
You are very scared of losing your family life as you know it, and while your two kids are sleeping in their beds, their mother is out whoring around! This is no way to make a home and a secure family unit to raise two beautiful kids in.
Your wife needs help, you need to urge her to seek counseling....there is a trend in our society to think that sex is just sex, love is just love and neither the two shall meet unless you say so....this ruins lives....and the people who promote it, are either not very old yet and have little experience with successful one on one relationships and life, or are very dysfunctional to begin with. I have watched many young people with this attitude waste their lives away pursuing sex and little else....they end up emotionally flat and bankrupt.
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male
reader, Merchant +, writes (27 April 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionShe taken me to doctor today to get some anti-depressants. What do you think? She clear that my mind is not straight and I need prescribed drugs to help me. I am not sure whether its drugs I need, but have gone along with it. Have to excuse typing, they are just starting to kick in.
She has commented that once I am 'straight' she will continue her search for fuck buddies (friends), if I am ok with it. Not sure that by then I will have any choice.
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male
reader, Merchant +, writes (27 April 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionStill feeling very unsure, think I've become depressed by the whole thing, and it's clouding my judgement. The last post was very interesting. Talked to her last night, and she said exactly that. She feels it is safer with people she knows. She does have a list of people who she has asked, and yes 2 or three are more than willing to oblige!
Yet the reality is that swinging sites allow couples to meet on line via e-mail and via cam. Yes I know this does not equate to a relationship, nonetheless, bonds can be made and it's an awful lot of fun flirting.
May be I should let her see how she copes with it. She says she is not really sure, how she will react, but life is too short. I know if I treat her like a possession she will be gone. She assures me that she loves me and she does not want to leave me or the kids, 4 and 15 and I believe her. Howeever, this is a change that I think that most men would find difficult. I have am also in the process of changing my job, although still teaching a couple days a week.
Thanks for your many kind posts
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female
reader, Keria +, writes (26 April 2007):
Ok, I'm trying to figure this out. She wants to swing. You also are willing to swing. If it's with strangers, you'll try it out. If it's with friends, then you want a divorce.
I think you might be misunderstanding what she means by emotional ties with the people. Likely she doesn't fancy walking into some motel room and seeing two people you've never met in your lives and saying, "ok, lets hit the hay, I take him and you take her". I think she just wants it to be someone she knows and feels comfortable with. Now, you may find it more difficult than she thinks to come up with a couple you know. It's pretty hard to bring up the subject, and even though lots of people swing, what are the chances of one of your couple friends doing it? I don't know... but I don't think its love shes after... it's just pleasure. So, if you are willing to do it with strangers, I don't think you should be off to the divorce lawyer, just becuase she wants it to be friends.
Give it another consideration. It could be a lot of fun! Like I said, many men would give anything to be in a situation like you're in!
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male
reader, Merchant +, writes (26 April 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionShe adamant she wants sex with friends not strangers. It would be far easier to take if it was just acquaitances. She says I'm depressed and need to get my head straight.
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female
reader, deejuliet +, writes (26 April 2007):
She is saying two opposite things here. First she says it is just sex, just her body being pleasured and she will not be emotionally involed. Then she says she only wants to do this with friends, ie people she cares about and is emotionally involved with. Maybe if she can make up her mind wich one it really is you can deal with it better. The first is called swinging, the second polyamory. They are really 2 very, very differant things and she really needs to be clear which one she is interested in. Once she knows what it is, exactly, that she wants, the 2 of you can honestly discuss it and come to a mutual decision to go ahead - or not. This decision needs to be done by both of you, not just her.
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male
reader, Merchant +, writes (26 April 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionWe flirt endlessly by text, and she says she is happy. Nonetheless, I agree that she needs lots of love and attention. I will give her lots of love and see where it goes.
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male
reader, Merchant +, writes (26 April 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionAlthough I really want to believe that she will only have sex and not get involved, I suppose I find it diffiuclt to believe. I feel insecure, I am sure that is not that hard to understand. Women, tend to sleep with people they love and care for, not just for sex.
I am open minded, and have suggested that swinging with couples we don't know might be better than her instance to have sex with friends. She is not keen, and wants some emotional involvement with the person before she will sleep with them. I find that worrying, but understandable.
I suppose I just don't want to be left without any fun!
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female
reader, Keria +, writes (26 April 2007):
Typo: When I said, " I suggested to another person on here that they get some soft port movies that deal with partner swaping and watch them open-mindedly before coming down hard on the partner who wants to do it."
I meant, soft "porn", not "port".
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female
reader, Keria +, writes (26 April 2007):
I just read your follow up. No, divorce is not the answer. Why would you do that? You certainly won't have her all to yourself after the divorce the way you want her now. Are you planning on using the issue of divorce to threaten her so she stops this desire?
I have to agree, as you age, your hormones can do amazing things for you. Really, what harm is there in it? I suggested to another person on here that they get some soft port movies that deal with partner swaping and watch them open-mindedly before coming down hard on the partner who wants to do it. No, you don't have to participate, but try to be open-minded about it for her sake. She loves you, and being open-minded is the least you can do.
Talking about divorce over this, makes me wonder if there are deeper relationship problems than just this. Perhaps you never loved her as much as you've claimed to, and this is just an excuse for you. If you really truly love her, you should let her experiment. All she's asking for is to have her body pleasured, and she's giving you the go-ahead too! You should take advantage of it.
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female
reader, Keria +, writes (26 April 2007):
Before I give you my answer, ask yourself if you already know what you want the answer to be. Perhaps you aren't willing to accept a different opinion.
Anyway, here goes...
Your wife loves you. She is feeling very very aroused these days, and you should be very happy about that. Now, you also need to remember, as I say in my column info, Love is not Sex, and Sex is not Love. If you really don't want to go ahead with experimentation, then fine, but why are you hindering her for trying something she really wants to do? What harm is it going to do to you? Are you afraid of losing her? Are you insecure that she'll like some other guy or gal more than you? Well, sorry, but your stopping her from experimenting isn't going to change that. I'm going to take her side in this. Do you realize how many men would give anything to be in the same boat as you? This could be a great opportunity for both of you. Go have some fun. At the end of the day, it's still about you and her.
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male
reader, Merchant +, writes (26 April 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionShe also tells me that its her hormones! Well there is no doubting the strength of these, but as to whether she needs to sleep with friends is another matter. Are hormones really that strong?
May be I am losing here. May be a divorce is the only way forward. I love her deeply, but she cannot love me the way she is going on. Do I have any hope?
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female
reader, deejuliet +, writes (26 April 2007):
How is your job possibly the reason she wants to have sex with coworkers, friends and who knows who else? It cant be that you work too much as you have been able to make love to her 3 - 4 times per day as she requested. Sex always means something. Dont let her tell you otherwise.
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male
reader, lupa-k +, writes (26 April 2007):
I really don't think that by complying with this you would be helping to save the marriage, especially given how uncomfortable you feel with the whole situation (marriages are about two peoples needs after all). What I'd suggest that you could both benefit from is some kind of relationship counselling to get to the bottom of why she feels the need to do this
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male
reader, Merchant +, writes (26 April 2007):
Merchant is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThanks for the reply. Talked to her last night, she says that she does not need counselling, but I do. She sees my job as the root cause of the problem. She also tells me that she wants to remain in our relationship, and would be prepared to drop the whole thing. However, I believe that 'the cat is out of the bag' and things really cannot be as before.
She talks a lot about it just being sex, and that if she were with other partners, it would mean nothing. However, I am suspcious that she only wants sex with 'friends'. Still feel very confused and hurt.
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reader, anonymous, writes (26 April 2007): I think you need to tell your wife you are unhappy and distressed by what she is asking of you. I think you should go and see marriage counselling together. There is something clearly going on with her...she is either unhappy, not feeling complete or whatever. It isn't to do with sexual prowess. If you start 'swinging' it will change your view of her, yourself and she will change too. It is not healthy. You need to sit down with her and ask her why she is asking this of you, what she thinks of you, her life, her aspirations. You are going to have to be incredibly supportive even though it is going to hurt like hell. If she is not willing to go to marriage counselling with you, then you should go and seek some advice. And tell her that is what you are doing...it might make her think twice about what she is doing, or considering? If she has been heavy-petting with a colleague, you need to get to the bottom of that issue too. Don't do this as a ways of thinking this is going to save your marriage, it will just destroy your life, hers, your children and your extended family.
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