A
male
age
51-59,
*ighsighsigh
writes:I am 38 and my ex gf is 23 going on 24. We had been together for over a year and a half. Chance meeting at a bar and I wasn't looking for someone this young. Firstly, she's geniunely naive, stupid and weak. I slept with her the first night. I had never done that before and maybe should have realize that very moment that she was no good. But I was drunk (I know, no excuse).She recently told me that she has slept with 15 men during drunken binges at bars when I was under the impression that the number was way less. I am shocked to this day. Whilst crying, she told me that she has done terrible things behind my back of which I didn't want to know the details. I thought I loved her until she told me all of this two days ago when one of her supposed "friends" kept texting her phone and saying he wanted to kick my ass. I was like "hmmm... why on earth would someone want to do that if he was just a friend?" She nearly collapsed and fessed up EVERYTHING to me that she had been cheating on me and doing terrible things during our relationship.We broke up and she is in pain that for what she had done to me. I told her that I cannot be with a slut and a whore. She claims she is in the middle of a whole soul makeover as of a couple days ago to be a better person because she loves me and never wants to lose me. She says what she is and what she has done to me pains her immensely. My heart has grown numb to her. I hurt less every hour that goes by and I desire her less and less the more I am sickened by what she had done to me.I am an advocate for people wanting to change their lives around for the better. I told her that I can never be with the person that she is and if she ever wanted a chance with me again (even remote as the chances are) then she would have to become basically someone else--someone wholesome, respects herself, respects what a relationship is, etc...My problem is this... I am torn. I love her but I am disgusted to think that 14 other penises have been where I have--I have standards (although she was a first night sexual encounter). I am into wholesome conservative women, so this is not only a moral dilemma but a ideological one for me. Do I tell her to continue changing herself, giving her hope that she may one day get back with me or do I cut her loose and tell her that she has lost me forever? But my fear is that she will give up on herself and go astray yet again back to the bar scene and more one-nighters. I want the best for her, but I am disgusted by her. I believe people can change, but are her actions beyond acceptance for myself? I shouldn't feel sorry for her, but she calls me sobbing, apologetic and regretful for everything. Do people really change? I can't tell if she is for real or it's another one of her dramatic lies.I don't want to string her along and then in the end realize that I can't live with what she has done. I told her that if she would ever get back with me, she would virtually have to be another person altogether... the problem is I fear I would become the controlling, paranoid, angry, unforgiving person trying to mold someone for the better--something I don't want and never want to turn into. I have given her much advice during our relationship to improve her judgments and perceptions of right and wrong. But I suppose it wasn't enough.Do I wait or move on?
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male
reader, oldfool  +, writes (13 May 2008):
 If she's sincere, I think you can forgive this girl and all her transgressions of the past. All the 14 penises etc. is primitive male pride and possessiveness. It's hard to accept in a visceral sense, but I'm pretty sure you can get over it. It depends on how you look at it. If you're really "rescuing" her and she is coming back into your arms as a changed woman, all that stuff in the past is irrelevant. You can both rise above what she's done before.
What is problematic is the fact that you don't respect her. You think she's stupid. You think she's not quality girlfriend or wife material. How can you go back into a relationship with a condescending attitude like that? If she really is a gem that is worth being a saviour for, you won't regret it, because she'll shine ever more brightly in your life. She'll surprise and delight you with what she can do. But if she's a woman that you regard as stupid and substandard, then she'll never rise above that lowly position you've assigned her to. You'll be exactly what you said, a controlling, paranoid, angry, unforgiving person trying to mould someone for the better.
That's how I see the problem. Forget your lingering attachment, her physical appeal (no matter how sexy she is, there's something profoundly unsexual about a relationship of moral and intellectual inequality between the two partners). And also forget your visceral male reactions, because strangely enough, jealousy is a huge aphrodisiac. The question is, can she ever become the woman that you want to build a life with? If she can't, let her go. As someone else said, you'll only continue to hurt her if you keep going like this.
A
male
reader, sighsighsigh +, writes (12 May 2008):
sighsighsigh is verified as being by the original poster of the questionoldfool, this it's uncanny what your answer is. Thank you. I read every single reply and you guys are right. I am scared of losing her, but I fear I never had her. It may have all been sexual and a fear of being alone... she's not a quality GF--far from it. I know the persecutory tone from some of the responses are because I am hard on her, older than her, and had the initial one nighter with her. I hadn't touched another girl in the year and a half... even when we had a brief breakup for two months (where apparently, she racked up 6 more notches under her belt). She called me yesterday and told me she hasn't been able to sleep and is hurting and is going to change to be a better person first and a to hopefully open my eyes to the new her second.
I am still torn to be honest. Could it be sexual more than anything else that I need from her? As Oldfool said, the twinkle in her eye... etc. She's very attractive. I wonder if this whole thing had been physical... maybe I just wanted her "caged up" for myself. Because there is no good reason why I would stay with her based on what she is (cheater and liar).
I want to badly just push the eject button. By the way, I have done nothing but encouraged her during our relationship, I never called her names she wouldn't call herself. I have met much disappointment due to her naiveness and lack of knowing who she is or what she wants... since we live apart, we have had issue after issue about her going out again and again (as recent as the week before last). These ventures "out" are where she hooks up and does bad things.
I just don't think it's going to work. I wish this was all different. The circumstances. The past. The person she is. But reality has an ugly face for me at the moment. It hurts but I think I should move on.
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A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (12 May 2008): One of the first rules of relationships, is don't try to save someone.
She was a one night stand, treat her as such and move on.
If she wants saving she as to save herself.
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A
male
reader, Ares +, writes (12 May 2008):
 Hmmm,
Firstly, she has a sexual past, just as you did, deal with it, unless you can't have sex due to not being able to drag your martyrs cross through the bedroom door. How very convenient that you were happy to take advantage of her sexual liberation, until you had problems with her past.
Secondly, why do you feel that you have the right to demand that someone change who they are so you can inflate your fragile ego and impose your will and standards upon them.
She is a young woman and it is better that she experiment with different relationships now while she can. Yes she made a error in judgement by cheating on you. She has obviously reconciled her feelings about this, where you on the other hand have not. You take the easy road of name calling and false morality. You obviously do not care for this woman, or you would be opening some dialogue with her to discuss the problem (with or without a councilor or other service).
For the record, I am 38 and my fiancee is 26, and she is the best thing that has happened to me, because of her past.
Grow up or get out...
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A
male
reader, oldfool +, writes (12 May 2008):
Sighsighsigh, send me a private message. We have more in common than you think!
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A
male
reader, oldfool +, writes (12 May 2008):
Do you have a saviour complex? Because apart from the feeling that you're "doing good" for this girl, I'm not sure why you are with her. Is she great in bed? Is she as sexy as all hell? Does she have a nice figure? Is she sweet and understanding? Does she have a mischievous look and a twinkle in her eye? Apart from the insane ideological desire to "help her", I can't quite understand what is keeping you with her.
Although you say you like conservative girls, I think there's a bit of the old slut-lover in you. Indeed, I suspect it's in all of us to some degree. Her very different values are possibly one thing that attracted you. That's fine, as long as you realise that. But having a fling with a "bad girl" and getting married to one are rather different things.
As for her lurid past, the 15 penises are kind of irrelevant. You're getting things mixed up here.
* On the other hand, you've got the usual male thing of "my woman has been sullied by so many men, I just can't stomach it" syndrome.
* On the one hand, you're thinking that maybe you can "save" her. That means you're saving her from those 15 penises and all the other stray penises that are waiting for her in the future.
If you are thinking of reforming her and putting her on the straight and narrow, her sexual past is unimportant. It's the future that matters. In fact, the worse her past is the prouder you should be! Saving her from drunken orgies and brazen sexual romps is much more impressive than saving a woman who's just had a couple of ordinary sexual encounters!
It is, I believe, possible for people to make a big turn-around. This may have been her wake-up call. The question is, do you want to be the guy who does this? Do you really want to marry this girl to save her from herself? I thought marriage was based on other things. It certainly won't be a marriage like others. You'll be the father figure, always lecturing your "stupid wife" how to be a better person. You won't respect her and you may start looking with considerable envy at intelligent, respectable, ordinary women. "That girl at the office -- wasn't she great! Witty answers, mature outlook, intelligent comments, shrewd insight into life, while I'm going home to this stupid, naive, weak thing I call a wife who is still trying to get her head around why it's wrong to be drunk at 5 in the afternoon when the baby is crying to be fed."
OK, maybe she won't be drunk at five in the afternoon, but even if she turns out a great wife, you'll always be looking down on her. You won't be treating her as an equal, as your "wife", you'll be looking down on her as someone that you saved. She'll either be a willing slave or a poor weak thing that could never have made it by herself. You'll feel pity, but not necessarily love. Is this your partner for life?
Yes, you'll be a martyr for this girl, but you won't love her for it.
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (12 May 2008): Wow, love is about the other person, it is about putting their needs first, understanding them and accepting their life struggles as well as championing their accomplishments.
This girl is young, you are well beyond her in years and experience....she hasn't a clue yet what she wants or even who she really is, and you aren't helping her....you are damning her and condeming her for experimenting and trying to live her life as she sees fit and as she is capable of.
First you seek to understand, and by that I mean you put aside all of your ego, your anger and your judgements and try to see things from her perspective, then and only then do you seek to be understood.
You are the more worldly and mature partner here, and you are failing to guide her and encourage her and lead her into love....instead you are vilifying her for being young and undecided.
Really the bottom line is that you two are at different place, different life stages...you are not compatible and you don't have a strong foundation of friendship first.
Let her go, stop beating her up with your verbal abuse...so what if she isn't what you thought you wanted. You started with a one night stand, and all of a sudden you expect a realtionship to develop out of that...sorry, you got it bacwards.
She has a lot of years to grow into a bitter old woman, don't help her get there with your dissapointment....that is just as much your fault as it is hers.
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A
male
reader, Collaroy +, writes (12 May 2008):
 O.K. so she's wrong for cheating on you.
But ask yourself this. Why on earth did you pick her in the first place? The way you describe yourself it seems like you are pillar of society who is just waiting for Miss Right to be the subservient princess you have been waiting for all your life. So instead of waiting outside church on Sunday to meet your virtuous maiden, you went for a one night stand and have been morallising ever since.
This is what happens when two completely uncompatible people hook up. Let her have her fun and meet someone else. A lot of girls her age have a very loose sexual history( as do a lot of guys ), but people eventually grow up. You are from a different generation, give her up and concentrate on meeting someone with your own values.
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A
female
reader, pashanoodle +, writes (12 May 2008):
 Move on.
From what you write - in your heart and head you have already started to - and I don;t think you are really going to be able to forgive and forget. If you stay - it should be about wanting a fullfilling relationship with this woman - not so she won't "give up on herself". If you stay, I think you are in danger of playing the matyr - and I don;t think that will benefit either of you. I actually think there is potential for you to further damage this woman's self esteem (not intentionally) if you stay with her feeling the way you do - that is bound to impact on your relationship.
Why don;t you explain to her how much you care for her and hope her future is bright - but that you can't be part of that now that the trust is gone. She'll be sad, but I think she'll move on....and hopefully learn from her mistakes too.
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A
female
reader, Twirly  +, writes (12 May 2008):
 She's a young girl in her early 20s and you're a 38 year old man. Those early 20s years are all about the dating and experimenting and fun which usually all calms down eventually.
I think you should leave this girl well alone. No-one deserves to be thought of as naive, stupid and weak by their boyfriend or be called a whore because of past sexual experience.
I think you will make this girl's life hell if you get back with her.
If you get a kick out of dominating, criticising and preaching to your girlfriends then yes, take her back, but for her sake I really hope you don't.
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A
male
reader, PeterPan +, writes (11 May 2008):
 OK, let me say this right off the bat...
IMO, it is completely possible for people to do a 180-degree shift from where they are into a complete personality make-over. I'm sure you've heard cases of reformed alcoholics and drug abusers... so, it is complete possible. In her case, I'd think it would be easier since there isn't an abusive substance involved.
As an added piece to all that, she is the only one that can make and execute on a change like that. If she's not 100% committed to the revised/reformed person she aspires to be, there is no amount of influence you'd be able to exert on her. It's completely in her ballpark.
As far as you, stringing her along and the like... it seems to me that you're wrestling with yourself and if she's completely committed or not. And if she is, with all the "sexual activity" she's had, you wonder. But, since you were also one of those men, I would say that you don't have much of leg to stand on; you're just as guilty of being a one-nighter as any of the other guys. What's kind of tough here is the "during" vs. "previous" to the relationship issue. You (or anyone) has zero control over previous relationships and whom our partners associated with... and since time-machines have yet to be perfected, this one is clearly out of your control. But, if she's been sleeping around with others while you were dating her, that's a different thing. If she's shown signs of being unfaithful, that's completely up to you if you're willing to live with it as a past behavior. This reminds me of that old saying from Star Trek: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." For me, I'm usually willing to give people a second chance in most instances. But, that second round is watched a hell of lot more closely than the first round... and if there's even a suspicion of being fooled again, then cut and run.
I guess the bottom line here is that for me, I'd give the second chance. And, as time moved on, I'd be more inclined to move my finger off the eject button and stand down a little bit. People do change, but it's hard to tell if they are sincere about it... that much is probably faith in the individual... and something you probably need to answer for yourself.
It seems that I might not have come out and given you a straight-forward answer. I'm sorry if this wasn't of any particular help.
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A
male
reader, eddie  +, writes (11 May 2008):
 If she is a whore for a first night sexual encounter....what does that make you? She's wrong for cheating on you, that's for sure, but the other sexual stuff is just something you can either live with or not. You don't have to like the idea she's been with so many men. That is up to you and a choice you have to make. She doesn't owe you an apology for what she did before she knew you either. If she feels inclined, she may explain her frame of mind, but no apology is needed. You either accept her or you don't.
People canchange all the time. She can not change the fact she cheated on you or she had many lovers. That is a fact.
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A
female
reader, lexilou +, writes (11 May 2008):
 You do seem to have very different ideas about morality so Im not sure if this could ever work as you will constantly think about these 14 penises as soon as something goes wrong in your relationship. We cant change people they have to want to change and its not always easy. Whilst love is about forgiveness sometimes it can be unbearable to forgive actions that you find repulsive. I think only you can make the decision here - but dont stay with her because you want to save her from herself stay because you love her enough to believe it can truly work. i wish you luck x
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A
female
reader, frumpologist +, writes (11 May 2008):
 Honestly? You move on. A person can change, but no one can change how you feel towards circumstances, if that makes sense. If she's really changing as she says she is, then she'll see that losing you was the wake up call she needed. If she turns her back on this new soul search, she was never serious about it in the first place.
We can lead a horse to water, but we can't make them drink. And, if you're afraid that you may become someone else later down the road, why would you put that risk out there, changing who you are? You did nothing wrong.
I'm not one of those people who thinks 'once a cheater, always a cheater', but I do believe in preservation of oneself and if you truly feel that you can't forgive fully, then you shouldn't take her back.
Just remember that you are NOT in the wrong here. She made her bed, now she's got to lie in it.
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A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (11 May 2008): I think you should move on. For one thing, I think you're too much older and mature for her. This woman will grow up and settle down at her own pace. For another thing, right now you're filled with resentment for this woman. You will probably always have those hateful feelings, and if you got back with her, the resentment would pop up during rough patches and arguments and you'd end up calling her a whore to her face and other such things. I'm speaking from a bit of experience here. You say you might become unforgiving and controlling and paranoid. Is that worth it? I think we both know this woman is not you soul mate. Why stay with her? If you stayed with her and kept having these feelings of anger they would pop up and make you angry and her very hurt and confused. It's not good for either of you.
I have to say one more thing. You preach about how you want a moral, conservative woman, and yet you're willing to pick up a young "dumb, weak, naive" whore and sleep with her on the first night. How moral does that make you? Sorry, but it's a valid point. You're sounding very hypocritical.
Anyway, I think you need a woman who's been less sexually active and more on your wavelength. You'll find one eventually, so it's best to move on with this relationship and not waste anymore time with her.
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (11 May 2008): I think you should tell her that there is no chance of you guys getting back together but can be friends I now it sounds kiddish but if you are her friend you can keep her from going back to the life you were so disgusted by without leading her on
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