A
male
age
36-40,
*nteriorcrocodile
writes:This is a mess of a problem... and after reading this, you won't like me. Partially because I'm discussing cheating on my fiancee, and further because I end up passing sweeping judgment on people who've slept around. Ironic, right? That said, if you could provide a helpful reply that would be great. ---My fiancee and I are both acting badly, and I'm starting to no longer believe she deserves me, or at least that I should no longer hold myself to such high standards. I need advice on what to do, or at least to be able to share this and get it off my chest. First, my fiancee has a storied past I wasn't privy to when we began dating. Had I been, well, we wouldn't have dated. In a way, I'm glad I didn't know right away, because here I am with a girl I love. On the other hand, the relationship has been built on something less than total honesty, and I feel like my choice was taken from me. I said "yes" to dating the person she portrayed herself to be. Truly, I suppose people are never entirely honest with one another, especially in the beginning of a relationship, so maybe this is something all relationships face. What she was omitting or lying about bothers me. In short-- she slept around quite a bit in the past year, wasn't going to church, her friends were an unhelpful influence, and further in her past she made poor choices with alcohol and drugs. I'm the church going yuppie sort, so all of that bothers me. And that long history of half truths and outright lies has made it difficult for me to trust her. Part of this speaks to fairness for me. I shouldn't be looking at it like this, but let's keep it real: I haven't lived my life in this manner, so why should I settle for someone who has? I'm easy to get along with, Christian, good-looking, self-made, Ivy educated, and well off. All I want, all I've ever wanted, is to marry a woman who could bring the same qualities to the table, and for us to have a family. These are problems in the past; she doesn't live this way now. Only my responses to the past exist today. But, you know, there are problems presently, too. Probably for a combination of reasons (not wanting to be further judged and not wanting to further hurt me) she's taken to lying. Except, like all of us really, she's not very good at it. I was cleaning our place last week and found a ticket stub to a movie that played awhile back, a week before we started dating. I was kind of curious since the theater was several states from our own (and where a guy she knows lives), so I asked her about it... and then she started stating facts that weren't reflected on the ticket stub. Well, that's the polite way of saying she was lying badly and fumbling to construct a believable story on the spot. That's difficult. Really it's before we dated, I was just curious. She could have told the truth or said she didn't feel comfortable talking about it. But instead I was lied to. So, I took the story on face value, because bringing up the physical evidence at that point wasn't going to help us. And that's getting really old, because this is just one of several examples. I wasn't out to trick her, to have an "ah-ha!" moment... I was trying to piece together where this fit in with our relationship. The long and the short is this: she has a past she's ashamed of and endlessly lies about. It bothers me because I've been very cool about all of it. I've asked very few questions, never said anything negative, encouraged us to be open, and let her know that I'd rather she simply choose not to answer questions than lie. I'm a peer counselor and I've been breaking my back to create a great atmosphere for communication, giving away little about the extent to how I feel what I feel. It's getting old working this hard at communication and getting so little from it. Despite not saying anything negative, and not judging her face-to-face, I won't deny how I feel. With her actions, I see her as damaged goods. She's slept around, and what we have feels cheapened. Better still, she said she'd been tested before we slept together; that was a lie. And she freaked when I recommended we now get STD tested. That speaks to bad judgment, I suppose, but more generally, I just see her as used. Why should I have waited several months before we had sex if she was an easy lay? I've always been good with women, I have a lot to offer, and I don't want to settle for a woman who admits she was nothing but a toy and a game to other men. My ego is entirely too large for that. If she acted like she was disposable, and men treated her that way, how am I supposed to treat her any differently? Especially when her screwing around ran right until the week before we met? How can you really claim to suddenly be a new, different person, one week later? I just don't know if I can bring myself to act this stupid. She's a wonderful woman. We get along great. Nothing in her actions now, other than the lying about the past, would in any way indicate that she's ever been any other way. We go to church and read the bible together, we spend time with our friends, and we rarely argue. Things now look good. It's just a matter of dealing with the past. My dislike of it, her lying about it, my quiet judgment. And the fact that now I'm not acting right. The more I find out, the less obligation I feel to maintain high relationship standards. If this is all some bad exercise in game theory and Prisoner's Dilemma, where defections are sexual partners, I feel and have felt for awhile that it's my turn to do what I want. One of my ex-girlfriends is coming back from Europe to visit the area next week. She wants to meet up and, well, you know *wink wink*. Why shouldn't I? She's hot, and why don't I, too, get to do whatever I want and simply regret it later? That seems convenient. If it's seemingly so difficult to find a woman with similar values, maybe I should stop expecting people to subscribe to my value system-- I could adopt theirs. It might not be so fulfilling, but it'll be more fun, and at least I'll have company. I'll admit my thoughts today are considerably darker than general, but I'm not sure how well I'll cope with my fiancee's lying and this expectation that I'm supposed to be this great guy. It's getting really old, really fast. By the way, we're getting married next month. So, what am I supposed to do to (1) stop the lying, (2) stop the judging, and (3) convince myself to not cheat? On the last count, I have to say, I'll need some pretty good convincing. The ex-girlfriend is hotter and, if morally questionable, at least forthright about the fact. Thanks for your help.
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male
reader, interiorcrocodile +, writes (14 December 2009):
interiorcrocodile is verified as being by the original poster of the questionIn the off chance, someone searches online, for coming to terms with their ex's past or retroactive jealousy, looking for help on this issue, I'd like to add this update:
We're still together, and it does it get better with time, but there are good and bad days. Month by month there are more good days than bad. There's the good news. The bad news, for starters, is that for the reasons below I do wish I'd bailed earlier.
You'll never know everything, and what you do find out will be horrible and hurtful. Almost every time, count on it, people will lie to make themselves more acceptable to you. They'll lie for your sake and theirs. It's neither an entirely selfless nor selflish thing. There's a lot of shame and guilt. In our relationship, the truth was severe. After couples counseling, and taking time off to work on our relationship, here are the real problems we're dealing with --and please bear in mind that this is significantly worse than those mentioned in the earlier posts-- which is to say, what you think you're dealing with now, is assuredly the tip of the iceberg, although unlikely to be this extreme-- my fiancee has cheated on me, worked as a prostitute, been involved in sugar daddy relationships, been involved in online porn, slept with more people than she can remember, been STD tested only once, and never been in a relationship. While she hasn't had a rough childhood, she has suffered from clinical depression and is coping with PCOS and other feminine issues, some of which she incurred as a result of her indiscretion. When she dated me she had made a commitment to change her life around. It didn't happen quickly. There were times when hurtful things were said, even soon after we were dating (she only dated me because I seemed nice and had a big dick), and a real change to a person's lifestyle takes months, maybe years.
To respond to the some of the questions I had in the thread, in case you're curious: I did cheat, she had cheated early on in the relationship, the movie ticket was from a man who paid her to fly down to meet and have sex in exchange for "gifts," and we called off our wedding.
My advice to men and women in my position, learning about this early-on, is to choose not to get further involved and move on. The rabbit hole will always go deeper than you think, it will hurt for longer than you believe, and for your sake and theirs your partner will drag out the truth of what actually happened with lies and tears. So that said, their past is worse than you think, and this is a longer healing process than you've yet accepted. Beyond that, you'll be upset that you have to deal with these issues and be more likely to stray. Stressful situations aren't an excuse to cheat, but these circumstances undeniably make infidelity more likely. Further, your partner will not be endlessly patient with you coming to terms with their past.
The most annoying thing I've found from this experience is that other people make mistakes, but that coming to terms with it will be painful for you, and you can expect to be blamed by others for not being able to forgive.
Again, if you decide to go forward, the good news is that it absolutely does get better with time, and if you (both!) want it to work, it can. If you're committing to the relationship, I'd recommend couples counseling and taking a little time off of work or school to recommit to each other and spend time making things better. It's not an easy road, but further along you can see there's an end to the forest.
---
To those who responded-- thank you for taking the time, but many of you were massively judgmental and unhelpful, which was ironic since I think I was the only one in the thread aware that I was judgmental. To those who responded to help, thank you. In the future, please don't endlessly defend the actions of people who've engaged in risky sex. Don't send the message that it's okay, we all make mistakes. There are mistakes on different levels, and clinical studies demonstrate that people who make fewer of these sexual mistakes are happier. In her case, her choices made her more and more depressed, with no one to turn to with an alternative message, and she ended up suicidal and self-mutilating. This isn't to mention that some of these men were violent felons and she's lucky she wasn't assaulted.
Thanks for the forum to express my thoughts. God bless.
A
male
reader, MBaachman +, writes (27 July 2009):
Dude, you should know better than to bring Church in to this mess. Look at the posts below. You wouldn’t be getting put on blast so bad had you left God out of it. Every idiot on the planet will google Bible verses about forgiveness and throw it in your face before they even begin to read the rest of your question.
Now on to your issues.
She was an easy piece of ass. She lied about it. You’re thinking of marrying her.
If you’re as educated as you say you are. Those three sentences will make you realize how silly your predicament is. Move on, but don’t cheat on her.
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A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (19 July 2009): Im so sick of you church going fanatics that cant even live by what you preach. Your a hypocrite, your Father will not forgive your sins, as you cannot forive ohers.Why do you even bother going to church, i didnt know that just attending guaranteed you a place in heaven.
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A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (19 July 2009): Let me see if I have worked this out, she is a slut fot sleeping around and now you are going to be a slut to get even, now thats a bit rich. Too many inconsistencies in your story I think your having us on ;)
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A
female
reader, bobbles32  +, writes (19 July 2009):
 I don't understand why this is so hard for you to just leave the girl. You knew about her past, and you still asked her to marry you. But now you've changed your mind so leave.
None of the girls you dated were quality? What? Are you God? You think because you had a rough childhood and pulled through that you're better than everyone else? That's not how it works.
That's rediculous. You had a rough past, what if she was like you are and decided that you weren't good enough because of your past? hm? What if she considered you a "hobo" and thought that she was way above you? Reading your words, it sounds like you have no heart and no compassion. That's a fault.
I'm not judging your judging, I'm trying to let you know that it's wrong and that you need to change it. Not everyone judges everyone.
In the bible it says you should sell your daughter into prositution and that we should stone children who are bad on sundays. Just saying. If it's a code of being and it's the word of god and infallible, then you can't just pick and choose which parts you're going to follow. That doesn't make any sense.
If someone was uncomfortable with their past enough to lie with me, I'd leave it alone. That or leave them. That's really your only option. What you plan to do between here and then is your call, but you should know what pre-meditated cheating is morally questionable.
Ivy doesn't mean you can find a husband. It doesn't even mean you're smarter than people who didn't go Ivy.
If your current fiance can look past you being a stuck up snob and everything then I think you should stick with it, even though in a few years she will probably hate you. With your attitude, I'm surprised you can make anyone happy.
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reader, QuirkLady +, writes (19 July 2009):
 "And be ye kind one to another, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." Ephesians 4:32
"But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins."
Matthew 6:15
If you can not forgive her, you should break up with her. It is not fair to her to hold this against her in your heart. It is not fair to her to judge her and think you're better than she is.
You may complain about people speaking about your harsh judgment, but that is what has destroyed the relationship between the two of you.
P.S. You should really think about whether you are actually walking the path of righteousness or paying lip service to it. And break up with her. Definitely.
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reader, interiorcrocodile +, writes (19 July 2009):
interiorcrocodile is verified as being by the original poster of the questionHi bobbles32,
My morals, on a good day, share some semblance with what the bible teaches. It's what I and all of us fall short of. I don't mean to judge as harshly as I come across, really. I think my fiancee is a wonderful woman, and I love her. It's hard for me to get behind how she's acted, though. And I don't see why it's so bad that I get to choose for myself who I'm with. It's not that I'm a saint, it's that in many ways she's much less than I want. My track record isn't perfect. Keeping it real, though, it's pretty good. Better than my posts make it sound. And better than hers.
"To me, it sounds like this girl has really made an effort to change and it sounds like your egotistical behaviour is probably the reason why she's lying."
She's made an effort, and succeeded, you're right. And my judgment is part of why she doesn't share. I don't think it's all of it, however.
Yes, going on what you've noted, she's really wonderful in all ways but one. She has a shady past, and to be fair to me, I've asked very few questions about it. We've talked about it twice. I've been very nice. It still bothers me, though.
Do I think I could do better? Honestly, now. Of course I do. I started out with nowhere near her advantages in life, and ended up doing much better by near any definition of success. So, yes, I can do better. I already did. Cheating... well, I'd have to take that statement back, lol. Could I date a better woman? I honestly don't know. I've dated a lot of women now; I'm 25. Not many have been quality. It's not a misogynistic statement, it's misanthropic. I don't assume the average man to be any better.
As far as the ex: she doesn't pretend to be something she's not. She went Ivy so she could find a husband. Her morals are questionable. She's a dime (that is, she's hot :-)), and she's from money. She's the kind of girl guys like me marry and hate years from now. At least she's honest about who she is, though. She never changed for me, or mislead me about what she was about. I respect that honesty. It's not what I'd want most in this world, but lets keep it real, apparently that's about as good as it gets.
@your second post
Yep, if I'm going through with cheating, I should break up with my fiancee first, I agree. Then again, she put me through an emotional hell, so who knows.
The bible is a code of being, lol, that's the idea. Yes, I should stop being as judgmental as I am, but really... we all judge. Sucks, right? Only God can judge me? Everyone can and does judge everyone. Nowhere in the bible does it say only God can judge. Also, although I can relate, I'm not Catholic.
She hasn't been sexually abused. She had an idyllic childhood, in her words. I don't see any real rationale/explanation. I grew up sleeping on park benches and didn't have a bed until I was 18. I hope she doesn't expect sympathy regarding her childhood.
So, the first time a guy uses you you feel like crap, so you just keep doing it? It's not one guy and a mistake. That I could understand, and I wouldn't judge. It's a dozen guys. In a year. She's a slut. At least we can accept and try to deal with that... except, well, I can't. That's been hard for me.
I don't know. I'm not looking to be judged about my judging. That's not going to go anywhere. I really want to know what I can do now. Honestly, I want to make this right, or as right as I can. Thanks...
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reader, bobbles32 +, writes (19 July 2009):
After your last response (which was not directed at me, I know) I feel as though you're just a hypocrite. A Christian hypocrite. I don't understand why, if you're so unhappy with this girl who you feel is completely below you, you don't just break up with her before you see your ex? You think "God" is punishing you for having sex before marriage? So why are you contemplating more premarital sex? And at that, infidelity?
You like to twist things so that you can justify what you do, but there is no justification for cheating on someone, especially pre-meditated cheating.
I'm not a fan of catholocism, but I do enjoy entertaining the thought of it, as well as provoke people who follow the bible like it's some kind of code of being. Does "Only God can judge me" sound familiar? Stop judging people. Your standards are unrealistic.
By the way, do you realise that after the first time one horny guy uses you, you feel like a bucket of shit. If she has a past of sexual abuse, chances are her self-esteem is low and perhaps she went after those guys because she needed the attention. Players don't just have a "Player" label stuck on them somewhere, while her self-esteem is low and someone comes along and tells her she's beautiful and she's their princess, why wouldn't she want to please them? It's a vicious cycle that she probably THOUGHT she got out of.
I sincerely hope you take what I have to say and think about it and reply. I'd like to know what you have to say.
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reader, bobbles32 +, writes (18 July 2009):
Two wrongs don't make a right.
I'd love to tell you that's all I have to say, but it isn't. You're rediculous. You've constructed yourself according to some "morals" that are more than likely fabricated solely on the basis that the "bible told me to". Not to get into religion, but you mentioned it.
You're so egotistical. Granted, you knew that one was coming it didn't stop you from letting us know how well you are in comparison to your girlfriend (or ex-girlfriend). Now, I'm glad you didn't censor your thoughts for us because you were afraid of being called egotistical but if you hold everyone else to yourself, you're never going to be satisfied, and neither will they. Everyone holds their own connotation of what right and wrong are.
To me, it sounds like this girl has really made an effort to change and it sounds like your egotistical behaviour is probably the reason why she's lying. Think about it: If you're dating someone who is seemingly perfect, or atleast presents themself as being such then you would feel so inferior and threatened by that.
By no means would she want to tell you that the movie stub you found was from some guy who took her to the movie so he could get into her pants. If I'm reading into this right she's ashamed of her past but she has changed (i.e. everything is great except for her lying about her past).
Why don't you just stop poking and prodding and just let her past be her past? There is a reason she probably doesn't bring it up. It probably hurts her and makes her feel bad. I'd want to forget this too if I was in the same situation.
You think you could do better? She has tried her best to change for you and she has. You're willing to run to your ex who is forthright morally questionable? I don't understand your logic, If you'd like to explain that to me.
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reader, interiorcrocodile +, writes (18 July 2009):
interiorcrocodile is verified as being by the original poster of the question@sexseahot
Yeah, I get that she changed to be with me... but it's like, there's this person who she is, and this person she is with me. They're not the same. And should she really have to change? I don't feel like she should. She's welcome to be whoever she is, and I don't want that to change for me, but I also get to decide what I'm okay with, and what I'm not. Being honest, I'm not down with her past. And if you can't judge a person by their past, by what else are you to judge them? Beyond my values, promiscuity is correlated with infidelity, failed marriage, STDs, and so on.
Yeah, I shouldn't cheat on her, and if I can't hang with the marriage, I should let her know so she can move on. But wait, was she forthright with me? Not really. She said all the right things, lies even, to get me to this point. Do I owe her any better? I don't really feel that. And for real, the problems she's had with men in her life? You choose guys who only want you for the sex, that's what you get. You choose players, you get played. And now I don't know if she deserves any better than that. With the choices she's made this far in life, if I leave, I don't see her doing well. She'll at best get a guy who's nice, which I'll admit is sometimes better than I can offer, and who isn't much else. No guy of my quality, if he knew about her past, would want to touch this with a ten foot pole. And I'm not holding her to some standard that I'm not holding men. You're a slut whether you're a man or a woman. I can't imagine a quality woman being down with a man like this, all else being equal, certeris paribus.
Maybe it's outside this topic, but how shortsighted can you be? You want a great guy, one you hold to high expectations. If you can't provide the same, what do you expect? Each one of these guys she screwed was a drastic reduction at the chances she'd ever find a man who'd suck it up and marry her. Each dick was a huge sacrifice in her quality of life, with a quality man. Was it worth it? I really do hope so...
@deirdre yeah I'm all up myself, that's one of my faults. I know better than to think I'm perfect. Only Christ was perfect. My life has had many faults. But I made it from homeless to Ivy, from soup kitchens to Chez ish. So, when I hear about her upper-middle class life gone slut, I don't have any respect for that. I did better, and I expect better. She's an easy lay to me because, among other things, she's had one night stands. I've delayed having sex with women for at least three months before going there. So, yes, I'm at a place to judge that, at least. Should I have been sleeping around at all before marriage? Nah, and this is probably part of God's way of punishing me, so I'll accept that.
Uh, I've been entirely honest with her about who I am and my past. It's not all roses, but I've come real with it. She hasn't done the same. I don't get to know all of it, that's not my role even as a future husband, but I should be able to ask some questions. She deserves better than me? I'd say she deserves someone just like her. And mark this, he'll make her miserable. I don't pity what her future holds. I pray for her.
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reader, sexseahot +, writes (18 July 2009):
 it sounds like your fiancee changed for you cuz she finally found someone she wanted to spend her life with. You cannot judge a person by their past, especially if they are unhappy about what they have done and tried to change themselves. That's not fair. And you thinking about cheating on her with your ex-girlfriend and you guys are getting married next month, you should be ashamed of yourself for even thinking that just cuz she's much hotter. If your fiancee don't mean that much to you anymore, then please let her know this so she may find someone that will be faithful to her. She hasn't had the best past, so what. You were not a part of that. As for her lying, she just may want to forget about her past altogether and not even talk about it. You should respect that since it didn't involve you. Hope you make a wise decision and don't cheat on your fiancee. You don't really love her like you should if you do. Just break up with her if you're going to and save her the trouble of having an unfaithful man in her life. She's already had enough trouble with men, why do you want to add more to that to the one you are going to marry?
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reader, deirdre  +, writes (18 July 2009):
you are so up yourself, ''good-looking, self-made, Ivy educated, and well off.'' as if that is all that matters. have you looked at your own past in detail to see whether you are a perfect person or not? I bet you havent. everyone has a past and slepping with a couple of guys doesnt make her as ''easy lay''. how can you describe her in such terms?
I had a boyfriend just like you, he lied to me about being separated from his wife telling me he had been single for 6 months & had never been married, & got another woman pregnant 3 months before I met him but I did not find that out until a long time later. yet when an ex of mine made up a load of untrue stories about me this guy chose to believe him and not me.
my pint being everyone has a past, she deserves someone better than you. nobody is perfect.
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