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Gnarly
writes:Spoiler alert. Some may find this misogynistic and or demeaning to women!!!This is the Chicken/Egg paradox.When I was a kid most wives were stay at home moms, were financially dependent on their husbands and were either submissive by choice or dominated against their will. So by deduction marital problems and the divorce rate has risen as feminism has advanced. Numbers don't lie.Or:When I was a kid it was possible for a family to survive on one income. Pensions were the norm. Luxuries in life were few and whatever luxuries were attained are now considered necessities. So by deduction marital problems and the divorce rate has risen with a changing economy and the disappearance of the middle class. Numbers don't lie.Or:Religion is failing. Church attendance is down. The Bible as a moral guide is ignored or disparaged. So by deduction marital problems and the divorce rate has risen because of a lack of spirituality. Numbers don't lie.Or:When I was a kid sex toys were hard to find and not used by many. or so I thought. Now all sorts of vibrators, dildos, humming panties, etc, etc are readily available. Yes even female friendly porn. So by deduction marital problems and the divorce rate has risen as women have taken charge of their sexuality whether they are in a relationship or not.Or:If men are honest most have used porn at one time or another. When I was a kid porn was a Playboy magazine and it was hid in a drawer at the drug store and everyone in town knew who opened it. Now every possible variation is a few key strokes away and available to males of all ages.So by deduction marital problems and the divorce rate has risen as porn has become easier to access. Remember numbers don't lie.And yet if you read women's questions about no sex, not enough sex, body image problems, lack of affection, depression, etc, etc, etc and their husband/partner watches porn. Porn is always the problem?The truth is "Statistics never lie but liars use statistics".So dear friends, which one do you want to blame it on?[Mod note: OP's title for this article was: "Which came first? Porn or problems with your relationship?"
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reader, anonymous, writes (2 March 2014): I'm going to ignore the feminist debate as it always descend into man hating nonsense and directly answer your question from a historical perspective. Feminists know nothing of history except the male oppression model and ignore all practical aspects of why such things existed. For example you won't hear a feminist complain that a woman could divorce a man if he was impotent because it benefits women, and feminists only care about women.
Porn is just the latest version of reasons that have always existed. It's simple feminists hate the idea of male sexual liberation because they feel we've always had that and completely ignore the fact that men are as much victims of restrictive religious sexual policy as women were. Men too were "slaves" to a system dominated by religious oppression of sexuality. Women still demand that the man live that way too, to be providers, to pay for dates, and to only ever fantasise in ways that are female approved. So feminists want to take over control of sexuality in the way that church did, and they use all the exact same "morally wrong, living in sin" methods to achieve that by making up their own rules that benefit women only, but of course they try to sell it to us as the best way through emotional blackmail and coercion with no factual basis. But because it was people of our gender that decided those rules all men are cast in the same mould, so yeah, yawn, rape culture, slut shaming blah blah.
From a historical point of view, porn and sexuality, fertility have always existed. The term pornography was created by the religious conservatives as a negative term and feminists are all too happy side with religious conservatives on the issue. They hold the exact same views on porn as the most conservative of religious groups and they do so for the same reason. Power over male sexuality. Feminists actually truly try to paint all sex workers or porn workers as disgusting, abused victims not in control of their own lives, the exact same as priests, imams and pastors have painted them throughout history. I mean why would any decent woman chose to live in sin? She must be forced, god dammit!
Physical porn has existed since we first started creating symbols, paintings and sculpting. The earliest of antiquities found are very heavily linked to fertility, we built huge structures the shapes of penises to celebrate fertility, every culture had sexual celebrations and customs. In places as far away as Ireland, India, Japan, the Saxons, the Romans, the Greeks, Persians, the Mongols and even further back there exists masturbation aids for women (fertility symbols) and paintings and sculptures of sex that no one doubts were used for masturbation. Paintings of sexual acts, books of sexual positions have been used for masturbation throughout the ages, fertility idols the shape of phalluses have been used by women to masturbate in pretty much every ancient culture.
If you look at primitive tribes in Brazil, Papua New Guinea you'll see they still maintain the importance of fertility, virility and the ability of men to sexually satisfy a wife or wives is held in as high a regard as his ability to produce a lot of offspring for the tribe.
The reason porn is used as an excuse in modern day relationships, the reason it can for a lot of women be a very real problem is simple. Feminism and religion have combined to make sexuality a dirty, rotten thing if they don't agree with how it's done. The idea that a man may find sexual pleasure in a way that women or their god disagrees with is them is a mortal sin. In the middle of this fight back to reclaim some power they've gone over the line into wanting more and more power, to the point where they play on insecure women's minds to believe that porn is cheating or is a direct insult to their abilities to be the only woman that man needs, when it's rarely anything to do with that.
No one thinks vibrators are harmful because it pleases women, but porn is still male dominated so that's bad. Strip clubs are male dominated so they're bad. Miley Cyrus grinding around half naked is sexually appealing to men, so that's bad. Topless hunks in firemen outfits are appealing to women so they're never considered to be bad or objectified. An older lady with a body that is not widely appealing sexually for men who poses naked is not bad either, she's brave and beautiful.
The point is porn as a relationship problem is just a part of the eternal sexual power game that a lot of people want to play. Porn is a popular past time for men so it's attacked, it's a part of a man's sexuality that women can't control and that infuriates a large amount of them whose egos can't handle a guy only ever thinking about her for the rest of his life because that's what's expected of men in this lovely feminist utopia they want to create.
It's just an excuse, OP. If women want to be so insecure they need that much control over a man's sexuality then there are plenty of men around who will fulfil that role of servant to their needs.
You see there is a wealth of historical data to show how women had a lot of protection within marriage in ancient cultures. In early medieval Ireland women could divorce on the basis of impotence for example or homosexuality. Of course it was practical because you needed children as the economic basis of a successful family.
There are records of men who had to prove they weren't impotent in divorce proceedings who couldn't for one wife but then had kids with their next wife so you can see all the ways that system could be abused by women as an excuse to divorce. I certainly couldn't get an erection in a room filled with judges testing me to see if I can get one.
All throughout the ages there have been "reasons" such as porn that have been sociologically fabricated as a custom of that society. A custom people could ignore but mostly didn't.
You only have to browse a right wing news site or a feminist blog to see the only people who actually are having a public discussion about porn is one side of the argument because they hate it and frankly most people are moderate about it and people who love it are outnumbered by those who think they're disgusting filth so of course young women are going to grow up in the same society that religion told them it was bad now taken over by other women who are convincing them with false, misleading, cherry picked data to prove their conclusions. The funniest thing about is that there are some feminists who are actively disgusted by the portrayal of male sexuality being inherently evil and porn being solely about abuse that are starting speak up and present different data.
Even some feminists have become disillusioned with feminism because the hardcore bra burners treat them with the same disdain as men and as victims of the "patriarchy".
Look if porn were ever to be discarded it would be something else, anything a man can receive any pleasure from that's not approved by the woman he's with is disgusting and evil and she'll run to the internet to tell other how bad it is and why it is.
There'll always be women that just don't like it, but seeing as it's always existed it's attitudes that are being sown into them that are the cause of it being a "problem". It exists in deeply religious cultures but is not as widely used as a reason for divorce because men there hide it better.
The mistake men make in more liberal societies is that they actually believe women believe in sexual liberation, they don't. They believe in sexual domination and liberation for women only at the expense of male sexuality. Open up a newspaper and you'll find a feminists column. Because it's assumed men have no issues other that what car to buy or aftershave to use, because apparently we're all responsible for the elite nobility which just so happen to be our gender do in this world and our issues don't matter.
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reader, CindyCares  +, writes (11 February 2014):
 Now that I think of it, yes, I would dispute EVERYTHING you say in your update.
Tbh, I am not totally sure about exactly 40 years ago- 1974- because then I was a school kid not very socially aware and mostly interested in wearing miniskirts and flirting with boys. But, just 5 years later, 1979- ( 35 years ago) I have clear, precise recollections of what was going on in MY society ( in Europe, so maybe in your country was different ?, but I doubt it- Canada is not exactly Third World ).
- Double income families were MORE numerous than now. For the simple reason that then the economy was good , or better than now at least , and jobs opportunity plentiful . You could change jobs like you'd change a suit. With my first " rookie " salary I had a buying power that now would be available to people with 15 years of job experence. Moral, joining the workforce was way easier and more rewarding than now, so most women CHOOSE to attend the party, even if maybe for the wrong reasons ( consumism etc. ) . NOW there's a lot of housewives by default - because there are no jobs, particularly for women.
Church attendance and religious influence had ALREADY took a massive nosedive since the epocal changes brought on by World War 2, and the Post War reconstruction period. Anyway, at least in my country, church attendance is more a sign of social conformism and die hard habits than of true faith, so let me tell you with assuredness that by the end if the 70s ALREADY nobody gave a fig about the position of the Church on issues of family and sexual morals, which were hugely perceived as a personal choice ( and I was in a catholic country ! ). The only difference with now is that then most people would still bother to marry in a church, while now the civil rites are the prevalent ones .
Sex toys ? Let me give you the address of a delicious little shop in Goodge Street, London, where I bought my first vibrator in 1973 during a study trip. I had heard about it from older friends who regularly shopped there in the 60's ( about FIFTY years ago ).
- Availability of porn ? that , in a way, you are correct, there was no Internet so porn was not as pervasive, available and cost free as now. It was far from unknown, though; newstands were already full of " dirty " magazines, and in my hometown ( which definitely was no Las Vegas ) there were two " red light only " movie theatres which had opened in the early sixties.
40 years ago - the sexual " offer " and general conduct was not THAT different from today. It was all a bit more discreet, perhaps, less exhibited, less in your face, but
everything was already there, avalable- and availed of.
OP, again, you seem to be caught in a bit of a time warp, 40 years ago society had ALREADY massively changed from that " I Love Lucy " atmosphere you seem to remember.
Making due allowances for difference of location and culture, I still have to think that your recollections are based more on personal feelings and wishes than from objective, factual observation.
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reader, person12345  +, writes (11 February 2014):
 Serpico not all women were treated poorly in their marriage, but that doesn't change that women had few options and violence was common. Many women felt incredibly dissatisfied with the gender roles of being expected to be in a supporting role at all times to a man. Some were genuinely happy, some pretended to be happy, but that doesn't mean it was a good system. No one likes a lack of options. Men were generally hardly satisfied, pressured to marry young and start a family early.
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reader, So_Very_Confused +, writes (10 February 2014):
 I'm older than the OP
MY GRANDMOTHER ran a home and had a full time job.
My other grandmother was also employed
My mother was a SAHM at first but went back to school and work because she wanted to. NEVER because we needed her to.
Folks who scoff at a "submissive wife" do not understand that the submissive is usually the one who is REALLY in charge... they set the tone and the rules of what dominance is permitted.
While it appeared to all the world that my dad was in charge, when my mother prematurely widowed him after almost 40 years of marriage (they married when she was 19 and NO she was NOT pregnant) he lost it totally and I had to take control of the funeral. Apparently NO decisions were being made in my family without my "submissive" mother.
As for porn... I think that it's way more easily available now to younger people but trust me it was out there large and available to adults a long time ago.
My father had a stack of playboys and penthouse in his nighttable at all times.
Oh and i just finished reading a book written by a servant woman from the 1920s. She wrote the book in 1968 towards the end of her life and guess what? EVEN in 1922 all the boys wanted was to get in her knickers...
people have not changes. the only things that have changed are:
1. birth control pills mean women could control when and IF they got pregnant giving them MORE freedom to do the same things MEN have been doing since there have been men.
2. society has lost the refinement of NOT talking about it... but it was happening then too.
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reader, CindyCares +, writes (10 February 2014):
I am not sure I get what your point is. If you mean that statitics can be misleading when used improperly, you are rediscovering hot water. I read somewhere that the English town with the highest rate of accidental drownings is also the place with the highest quantity of ice cream sales ( I guess it was Brighton or something like that ). Should we conclude that icecream drowns people ?. Or is it just that in seaside resorts, they sell a lot of icecream- and, being a seaside place, people is more likely to get into the sea and have accidents there ?...
If you wanted to warn us against being imprecise in correlating phenomena , thanks but I guess for most of us that's already implied.
Of course porn is not the cause of ALL divorces and ALL marital problems, as for me I have never heard anybody
advance this theory . Same as alcoholism is not the cause of ALL divorces, there are plenty of non drinkers who have troubled marriages.
But, that porn may be a concurring factor, it is , if not totally undebatable ( everything is debatable ) very possible and likely. If a man 's porn consumption is so relevant to cause emotional / sexual detachment , to decrease his want for/ satisfaction with the " real thing " , and to take up much time that he could be spending with his wife - then yes, obviously that's something that can sink a marriage.
And of course , also a porn free marriage- can still fail due to countless other factors.
But I don't think there would be much debate about that. Unless , as a society , we'd want to blame ALL marital problems on porn. Which, as far as I know, nobody is doing.
I am also curious about a sort of temporal shift in your post. You make it sound as if you had grown up in the 40s, maybe 50s.
I stayed a few months in Canada in 1979, when you were a kid - and by then most women had joined the workforce and worked out of their homes. My impression was that of a modern industrialized society. Those who had chosen to be homemakers did not appear particularly subservient or submissive. The general level of education was high and equally accessible to both men and women. All the modern " luxuries " available then ( sure, we did not have Smartphones yet, ) weren't luxuries anymore because they were already widespread in every home , everybody had cars, elecrtic appliances, Tv sets, credit cards and whatnot. I did not see anybody churning butter or baking bread at home- unless as an hobby of course. So I am really lost about what patriarcal society are you talking about.
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reader, AuntyEm  +, writes (10 February 2014):
 Um I am your age!
Are you asking me to remember a time when women were chaste and did not have sex until they got married?
Just to inform you. I was married for 19 years to a guy I met when I was 18 years old. I had two children by him and then he changed. My marriage consisted of living on the breadline with my two children, whilst he gambled, slept around and used violence as a method of control. I had no help from anyone, used to take in people's dirty laundry just to make some money to feed my kids. I had no family to run to. When I did finally find the courage to leave him, he broke my face in four places.
I never cheated, I never slept with anyone else, I never stood up to him when I was younger because I'd probably be dead.
Men like you want to blame women, they want to have that control because it's a way of getting what you want without taking any responsibility for shitty, violent, behaviour.
You have been given answers and opinions regarding porn by many aunts here who I totally respect for their thoughts, you just seem to be one of those people who only respects your own opinion and wants to be right.
I am sorry if life didn't work out for you, I am sorry if you have some issue with women or porn or not having a woman bow down at your feet...that stuff is outdated as one of the MALE aunts pointed out, women now have choices.
I am very glad I eventually found my choice, I am glad I could escape my marriage. I am much happier and settled now.
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reader, Serpico +, writes (10 February 2014):
12345 -
I find your generalizations rather offensive. My mother and father were together as a married couple in the late 50s, and my mother was most definitely not a "slave" to my father. Both sets of grandparents were married well before then, and neither grandmother was a "slave" to either of my grandfathers.
Just because gender roles were different back then does not mean they were wrong, as inconvenient as that may be to your own preferences.
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reader, anonymous, writes (10 February 2014): "So dear friends, which one do you want to blame it on?"I feel there is no definite or "right" answer here. Eliminate porn, and things would be the same. Addictions that can ruin relationships would still exist. Let's even set aside the other obvious ones, like drinking, drugs, or gambling. If there was no porn, men would still masturbate, and doing it too much even without porn would still be a problem. The men who do it too much would get so used to the grip of their own hand which NO woman's vagina could compare to in tightness. The women they're with would still feel second best.Women would also still compare themselves to other women, and get insecure. Even if there was no societal standard of beauty, we would still all have our own standards of what is beautiful so women would still see other women they perceive as more beautiful than themselves, and worry they're not enough for their partners. People would still lose attraction to their partners if they let themselves go in some way. No, porn is not the problem. The problem is lot of us are selfish, and don't want to compromise or negotiate when a problem comes up in our relationships. This goes for men AND women. People focus on other peoples' flaws, instead of focusing on ways to improve themselves. You can't force another person to change. The only person you can change is yourself. Yet many people still waste their time trying to change someone else, and lose any self esteem they had left when they inevitably fail. You hit the nail on the head when you said this: "I did not put the blame on any one problem or failure. All I offered was in hope that anyone who sees their unhappiness in a relationship due to one type of behavior or the acts of ONE of the mates would reconsider and examine their own part in it. Male or female." Both genders fail to do this equally. THIS is the real problem, and it would be that way with or without porn.
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reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (10 February 2014):
 Gnarly, it sounds like your Mom blamed porn for the problems in the marriage with your Dad? And your Dad blames your Mom for becoming obese and not submissive enough?
Not sure what "numbers don't lie" means… could you be more specific? Thanks!
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reader, janniepeg +, writes (10 February 2014):
 I don't think it is a sweeping statement to suggest porn is linked to marital problems. It's not the end all be all culprit, but it does make a catchy article and a hearty debate. These articles were featured in psychology today and huffington post. Sometimes their articles have truth in them, but for some you can't take them literally. Generalized articles have the ability to make you think that everyone else thinks like that. They are written or reported by sources which are made by people who attribute problems to porn. You can boo the articles all you want, but still some people would benefit from it.
This site is for helping people with real problems, but no one ever says that a philosophical debate is unwelcomed. Whether you are a professional therapist or a layman, the point is that you learn something and view it from different angles. It helps if we could appreciate the diversity of different readers.
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reader, Gnarly +, writes (9 February 2014):
Gnarly is verified as being by the original poster of the questionLack of logic did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed today? Would you really dispute that two income couples are more prevalent today than 40 years ago?That church attendance is down and religion has less influence?That sex toys are more easily available?Or that most men have used porn?I think not.The one statement you caught me on is "Porn is always the problem?" That goes completely contrary to everything else I was trying to say, because I surely recognize that not all women suggest that all their problems are due to their husbands porn useage. This statement was directed to the women that DO claim porn is the problem.I did not put the blame on any one problem or failure. All I offered was in hope that anyone who sees their unhappiness in a relationship due to one type of behavior or the acts of ONE of the mates would reconsider and examine their own part in it. Male or female.I see that you agree that a person can be won over by the good example of another. That's the basis of my suggestions.I also did not suggest that feminism had not provided some improvement for women. What I did say was that it came at a cost.Aunty EmAre some men not players? Are some women not promiscuous? That was my conclusion. I don't see where I was making a claim that one was acceptable and one was not. As to moral bastions perhaps you are not old enough to have seen the day when women were the restraint when it came to premarital sex. Men were not smart enough to see that sex without commitment was empty and exposed oneself to all kinds of afflictions so the burden of chastity mainly fell on the "fairer sex". Many of these terms probably seem archaic and idealistic. I must admit I am a romantic at heart and long for the day when you married your high school sweetheart and lived happily ever after.Anyone who has "taken sides" against my comments are jousting against windmills. I was not offering my opinion on anything other than "It takes two to tango". I offered a few reasons that could be presented as THE problem in a relationship. I also concluded with the question "which one would you blame it on" because it is quite obvious it is not just ONE and if anyone contends it is they will be doomed to failure.I would be interested to hear from others. Did I come off like I was beating a drum and claiming I had the answer? I did make the suggestion to try to be a giver in a relationship. Anyone disagree with that advice? Would any of you women object to your partner offering to do the dishes, laundry grocery shopping run you a hot bath? How about you men would you like it if your wife made your favorite snack to eat while you watched the ball game? Or chose to go fishing with you, or wore an outfit you especially liked. How does the saying go? "It's better to give than receive".I have no soap box to stand on. I contribute more than most to problems in my interpersonal relationships. And yet I do think that it is hard to argue that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.If indeed the perception was that I was putting the blame on any one course or the solution on some other it is due to poor communication skills and I apologize for making it seem so.Perhaps my sig should be "I want to be a good husband father and friend, fail miserably and yet I keep trying".
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reader, Honeypie +, writes (9 February 2014):
 Gnarly Lackof Logic
Thank you for answering the OP more eloquent then I could. Obviously YOU got my points - he didn't.
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reader, Gnarly Lackof Logic +, writes (9 February 2014):
Now that I dealt with your original question, your follow up answers may be even worse. For clarity, I will quote things you said and then I will deal with them.Gnarly: "However Person12345 there is the flip side to your argument that feminism "allowed women the freedom to stop being essentially slaves". Not all women were slaves. Some were respected by their mates. Being submissive, (that does not mean being a pushover or giving in to a domineering partner) can be a very attractive quality. Who doesn't like someone who aims to please? That quality usually moves the receptor to respond in kind, IE looking out for the interest of the giver."You do realize that women who want to be submissive and aim to please are still allowed to do that, right? Nobody's forcing women to have equal control in their relationship. There are women all over the country who allow their husband to make all the decisions in their relationship, and they're very happy to do so. That's the difference. Today, they're allowing it by choice. In previous times, it wasn't by choice. It was forced on them, even if they didn't want it.Gnarly: "Demanding rights is a two edged sword. It can cut both ways. Is getting "your way" juvenile or adult behavior? True love is a pairing of two givers. So which is better. Two takers or a taker and a giver? Granted as I said the optimum match up is two givers. Sometimes a selfish person can be won over without a word by observing someone who is taking the high road."Were slaves 'juvenile' when they wanted to be free, when they wanted 'their way?' Was our country 'juvenile' when it wanted independence from England? No, equal rights is not juvenile. That argument makes no sense whatsoever. And which is better. Two people being happy in a relationship or one person being happy while the other is unhappy or both people being unhappy? Yes, you're right, many selfish men have been won over by observing women who take the high road.Gnarly: "1. The fastest growing demographic in the USA is the 40+ single successful career women who wants to start a family but cannot find a suitable mate. That leaves a lot of frustrated demoralized women who supposedly reaped the benefits of a "level playing field"."So women shouldn't have a level playing field, shouldn't be allowed to focus on their career, just because they might want to start a family later in life? Are you suggesting they would have been better off being unable to have the career they wanted and being forced into a marriage they didn't want and forced to start a family when they had no interest in it? You don't think that would cause them to be even more frustrated and demoralized? How is that a cost of equal rights? These women made the choice. That's the whole point. Choices.Gnarly: "2. The second fastest growing demographic is the 25-35 year old single white male who lacks the desire to commit. They live with their parents or in modest apartments, make a good living, socialize on the internet and are not seeking monogamous relationships because the "player" in him have all the sexually free, promiscuous women they want available to them."Again, how is this a cost of equal rights? That's the choice these men make. These 'sexually free, promiscuous women' aren't raping these men. If a man prefers to stay single and avoid monogamous relationships, you A)think that's a bad thing? and B)think that's women's fault? Neither one of those is remotely true. Men who want monogamous relationships are still allowed to seek monogamous relationships.Gnarly: "3. The sexual revolution has given the right to women to act like a man. Yes the same man who was considered to be a "rogue" and a "player". Not a real gain was it? Women have lost the respect of men by giving up their role as the moral bastion in society."How is that not a real gain? A loss of respect? Did it ever occur to you that those women don't care about being respected by men like you? I sure as hell don't care about having the respect of a woman who would look down on me for how I choose to live my life, when I'm not breaking any laws or hurting anybody, I don't know why they would feel any different. Again, that's the choice they made. That's the beauty of it. They can now choose what they want to do, just like men have always been allowed to do.Gnarly: "4. Being "equal" means no more opening of doors, paying for dates and other chivalrous acts."Yeah, that's a great cost. The opening of doors really made up for being forced to stay home all day rather than having the option to work, being unable to leave the man you no longer want to be with, and having no say whatsoever in anything that happens in the relationship. Great, great cost there. By the way, I still open doors for women. You see, I'm not bitter about them having the same rights I do.
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reader, anonymous, writes (9 February 2014): I believe the USA has become more of a matriarchal society today. This is controversial but people should give the idea some serious consideration before dismissing it. The paperwork and symbolic things about the USA still hold the appearance of it being patriarchal. But the real deeper indicators about family, morality, control of assets (not just who technically earns wealth but also who controls SPENDING it) . . all these things point towards it being a more female-ruled society than male-ruled. IMO half the problem is women's expectations. IMO the Feminist idea of an "equal" society is if women had a better life than most men have ever had. Most men don't make much money. They don't have much power. They don't ever get easy access to casual sex with attractive partners. They don't get to walk around never being worried that someone might attack them. They cant assume they can walk away from a marriage and get the kids, the house, and alimony for years to come. The feminist crowd seems to be outraged that men won't give all women these rights as if they were in the constitution or something.
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reader, AuntyEm +, writes (9 February 2014):
'Women have lost the respect of men by giving up their role as the moral bastion in society'
I found this statement hillarious
and this observation
Men are 'players' whereas women are the much more degrading 'promiscuous'
As for the door opening and paying for dinner, well I was married for 19 years and that never happened for me...must have been my submissivness that stopped me 'kicking his butt' lol
Women do not want to be men, they want to stand beside men in equality of pay, social issues and working conditions. They want to feel safe when they go out the door.
There are countless women and girls killed by men both known and unknown each year, simply because they were walking down the street minding their own business. This doesn't even include rape, injury, verbal abuse, neglect by control.
If women need to 'respect' men just so they don't get raped, beaten or killed...(because men who do these things take no responsibility for the fact they themselves are out of control) then is it any wonder that women are choosing to live WITHOUT men?
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reader, Gnarly Lackof Logic +, writes (9 February 2014):
After simply answering anonymously for years, I had to register for this one. This is a doozy!Where do I start? First of all, you keep saying "numbers don't lie" yet, ironically, you don't have one single number anywhere in your question. Everything you typed has nothing to do with numbers. It's deductive reasoning, and yes, deductive reasoning can and does lie. So, for your own sake, stop acting like you have numbers on your side. All you have is your own logic...and, yes, of course logic can and does lie.So that's that. Now, can you show me one question where a problem was caused by failures of religion but was attributed to porn? Can you show me one question where a problem was caused by the availability of sex toys but was attributed to porn? How about a question where the problem is the family can't survive on one income but it was blamed on porn? You're making vague, broad generalizations about feminism/money/sex toys, even though the people who say porn is the problem are in response to very specific questions. It makes no sense.Like Honeypie said, oil prices are up, maybe that's the problem. Afterall, numbers don't lie, right? Hey, the NBA didn't even exist in the 1940's and now it's one of the most popular sports leagues in the world, maybe that's the cause of divorce rates going up! Numbers don't lie, right? LOL.No, I liked your response to Honeypie: "All of the situations I offered are directly involved in relationship issues."Really? What does religion have to do with a lack of sex? You cited very specific relationship issues, lack of sex and lack of affection, that were being blamed on porn. Then you tried to argue that porn is blamed too much because feminism, religion, the disappearance of the middle class and sex toys cause relationship issues too - even though they can cause entirely different relationship issues than the ones you listed, than the ones caused by porn. Answers on this site are given to very specific questions. Nobody's making grand, sweeping statements that porn is ruining marriages like you're doing with feminism and female sex toys. Again, please show me where porn is being blamed even though it's clearly not the problem. Because, in return, I have questions I'd like to show you.To wit, I refer you to this question:http://www.dearcupid.org/question/do-men-lose-their-sex-drives-hes-34-and-not-in-the-mood.htmlI wanted to see if you were right that porn is "always" the problem and this was the very first result that came up in my search. Result #1. This woman is unsatisfied with the lack of sex in her relationship, specifically mentions that her husband watches porn, and not one of the answers says porn is the problem. Again, that was my very first result. I think it's safe to say it's not the only one that's like that. So much for porn is "always" the problem.To answer your question, yes porn is to blame for problems that many women - and men, by the way - attribute to it. Just like a lack of religion is to blame for problems that people attribute to that. And the availability of sex toys is to blame for problems that people attribute to that. This site deals in very specific questions from real people who have real problems, not vast philosophical statements about life like you did in this question.
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reader, Gnarly +, writes (9 February 2014):
Gnarly is verified as being by the original poster of the questionHoneypie you got me all wrong. The point I was trying to make is NOTHING is black and white. No ONE or no THING is entirely responsible for the break up of a relationship. Multiple issues, multiple causes.
However you "oil prices" analogy is way off the mark. All of the situations I offered are directly involved in relationship issues.
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reader, janniepeg +, writes (9 February 2014):
The person you pair up with for life is usually not your sexual ideal. The priority is that he/she has the qualities needed to sustain the test of being there long term. Everything else is secondary. When it comes to a fling or a fantasy, you get to pick what you want and you don't care if it lasts forever. Porn only highlights and brings awareness to people that their mates are not ideal. The ones who are able to stay married are the ones who have ok marriages and semi get along. The ones who get divorced are the ones who are bitter about the reality and finds porn as the scapegoat. The happiest countries are also the ones with the highest divorce rates. Says a lot. It means people no longer define happiness as having an intact marriage. They rate freedom and independence higher than having a spouse. A society of high standards also weed out those who are not cut out for marriage. Loyalty is important, of course, but a person who is hung up on sexual issues is not suitable as a marriage partner. I am not afraid to say that people who are intolerable towards porn have issues.
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reader, Gnarly +, writes (9 February 2014):
Gnarly is verified as being by the original poster of the questionOP here.I have to say I am pleasantly surprised by most of the Aunts comments. I must have been prejudiced. My faith in mankind has been restored. LOLPorn can be a problem. However obesity, complacency, selfishness, passive aggressive behavior, laziness, boredom, etc are also.An overweight woman thrives in a relationship with a BBW lover. Why? Because weight is not an issue. In contrast, pair her up with someone who goes for the long and leggy look and you have problems. No couple is perfectly matched. But there are deal breakers. What to do when they appear after the wedding is the dilemma.However Person12345 there is the flip side to your argument that feminism "allowed women the freedom to stop being essentially slaves". Not all women were slaves. Some were respected by their mates. Being submissive, (that does not mean being a pushover or giving in to a domineering partner) can be a very attractive quality. Who doesn't like someone who aims to please? That quality usually moves the receptor to respond in kind, IE looking out for the interest of the giver.Demanding rights is a two edged sword. It can cut both ways. Is getting "your way" juvenile or adult behavior? True love is a pairing of two givers. So which is better. Two takers or a taker and a giver? Granted as I said the optimum match up is two givers. Sometimes a selfish person can be won over without a word by observing someone who is taking the high road.Whatever real advancement women have gained due to feminism has come at a significant cost. Consider:1. The fastest growing demographic in the USA is the 40+ single successful career women who wants to start a family but cannot find a suitable mate. That leaves a lot of frustrated demoralized women who supposedly reaped the benefits of a "level playing field".2. The second fastest growing demographic is the 25-35 year old single white male who lacks the desire to commit. They live with their parents or in modest apartments, make a good living, socialize on the internet and are not seeking monogamous relationships because the "player" in him have all the sexually free, promiscuous women they want available to them.3. The sexual revolution has given the right to women to act like a man. Yes the same man who was considered to be a "rogue" and a "player". Not a real gain was it? Women have lost the respect of men by giving up their role as the moral bastion in society. 4. Being "equal" means no more opening of doors, paying for dates and other chivalrous acts.On the other hand Person 12345 you hit the nail on the head with this one. "But in terms of modern divorce, there is no one issue to blame. People get married too young, financial issues, housework issues, cheating. Over half of divorces cite porn as a factor, but it's not usually the ONLY factor.Thanks for commenting to all of you and let's continue to keep it on a positive note.
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reader, Honeypie +, writes (9 February 2014):
I think you are trying to make sense of changes by making "issues" black or white - life doesn't work that way.
Porn is not a necessity. It's a choice.
As for your statement, numbers don't lie and statistics.. Well you can also say that divorce rate has gone up, not because women have started to take charge of their sexuality (which actually started back in the 1960's) but because oil prices went up. Numbers don't lie. right?
Divorce rate hasn't necessarily gone up because of porn, women's sex lib or sex toys. It's gone up because these days when people jump into a marriage they do it KNOWING that walking away is now a CHOICE for women and men. Go back to the 1950 and further back and divorce was BAD mojo. Now no one thinks twice about hearing someone is a divorcee.
There isn't just 1 reason why people fail a marriage or a relationship.
I DO think that CHEATING is on the rise, but I don't think there is only ONE answer as to why. I do think that SEX is "seemingly" more important to many people then it used to be . ( I say seemingly because it's hard to guess what people felt 100 years ago, you can only go my books or stories of a "few" individuals, who may or may not have written the "truth" but the "truth" as they WANTED to see it or how they saw it.
Considering that the sexual revolution of the 1960 coincided with the "revolutionary" idea that women TOO could orgasm and enjoy sex is not odd. It make sense.
In Denmark porn was legalized in 1969. The drop in rapes was close to 20%. It is quite possible that SOME potential rapists got "enough" stimuli of porn to not rape. But again, it's statistics, not truth.
Not all women are anti porn. I don't use it myself (my imagination is quite stellar, if I say so myself) but my husband does. I'm fine with that. I know MANY wives and husbands who use it together and they BOTH seem OK with that too. I DO think the women who have body issues, depression and other issues and they "think" it's because of their partners porn use are not being honest with themselves.
If porn is a no-no in a relationship, I think it's fair to be up front and honest about it and yes, I do think it's fair that DUMP a partner if they LIE about porn. No one HAS to like porn. Or the mass objectifying of women's genitals. It's a choice.
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reader, person12345 +, writes (9 February 2014):
The rise in divorce since the 50's is a totally different issue. Back then women were essentially slaves to their husband and he was legally able to rape or hit her, and those things happened. A lot more than people want to admit. So yes from the "happy housewife" era feminism was responsible for the rise in divorce, because it allowed women the freedom to stop being essentially slaves. So that rise in divorce is really a positive thing.
But in terms of modern divorce, there is no one issue to blame. People get married too young, financial issues, housework issues, cheating. Over half of divorces cite porn as a factor, but it's not usually the ONLY factor.
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reader, anonymous, writes (9 February 2014): Society has to have excuses and scapegoats. People like to play victim, and raise a fist in rage about petty issues; if things don't go their way. As the country song goes: "I beg your pardon, I never promised you a rose garden!"
We live in a cause and effect world; but sometimes we blame the wrong things for our problems. As the author of the post has pointed out, statistics don't lie. However; people lie to pollsters; and all surveys are biased. Statistics based on human nature is going to be far off; so statics don't tell the truth either.
Porn is a mainstay in modern pop-culture, and will remain so. Humans evolved, because we are adaptable creatures.
The media has weakened our psyche. It has worn down our psychological defenses; by teaching us how to blame and sound very intellectual about it. It has given us a fancy psychological-term for every human-weakness; and the false perception there is a pill for everything. It has polarized us as a society. We know how to hate with finesse, window-dress intolerance, and call it family values.
Porn is easily used as a convenient "excuse" for lowering the self-esteem of women. Let's analyze that lame suggestion. Most porn actors are well-endowed. The more high-budget videos use male and female actors that are fit and very attractive. When I say well-endowed, I mean these actors make money selling plastic latex replicas of their dingalings. They're huge!
Why aren't the men who watch these videos suffering from
body-image dysmorphia, or insecurities because they don't compare to the male actors in the videos? Why don't we want to present the same image to females that we see in porn? We mimic athletes, dress stylish, we use hair products; yet we are not intimidated by porn actors.
I wonder why? Does size matter? Hell yeah!!! It matters to me. I'm gay. It matters to women too. Like statistics, they lie about it.
Supposedly, the women's movement has changed a lot of things for women. Has the effort been too focused on creating negative attitudes towards men? Maybe spent too little time focusing on self-image, confidence, and self-esteem? Learning to love yourself. In spite of all the bullshit said and done, to make you do otherwise. If you haven't. Please work on it. It's important for survival.
Men aren't really all that strong. We are taught to pretend we are. We're bluffing, and we aren't a guy unless we "appear" to be tough. Some of us are. Real tough guys don't make a big thing out of proving it. They use it when it's necessary. It's a secret weapon hidden in his arsenal. The element of surprise is his strategy. Other men and women, may under-estimate his power. Too busy depending on stereotypes and false-perceptions. We good-guys use that to our advantage. We often get overlooked because we do.
Macho guys want to draw attention; there's always somebody who can kick his ass. Sometimes it's a regular everyday female; with an tough attitude that you just don't mess with. She isn't threatened by porn or prettier women. You just don't mess with her. She can be a loving wife, mom, or girlfriend. She'll stand by you through thick and thin. Just don't mess with her. Beware her scorn. Even the Bible speaks of this woman.
She has no clue what's wrong with other whiny females. In fact, she is embarrassed by them. She knows that she's her best friend, and she surrounds herself with backup when she feels the weight of the world getting too heavy; or men have disappointed her. They never defeat or destroy her. We might get in her way. She doesn't mind your porn. She'll throw it away; if she doesn't get enough tender loving care and good sex. She's not depriving herself of anything.
Watch-out guys, they're growing in numbers! My female relatives are among them, so you damn well better!
My mother grew up on an Indian reservation. My grandmother was not exposed to a lot of magazines, TV, or influenced by a lot of female politics. However; when my grandfather started his own business, and their financial situation changed. My grandmother put emphasis on my mother and her sisters getting private-school educations, learning dance and how to play piano, and they were offered the option of college, or a job working for my grandfather after graduation from high school. They were required at least one year of college, and they could continue, if they wanted to. My mom met my father at 16. She skipped two grades and had already graduated high school. She attended Catholic school. So religion was definitely a big part of her life. She knows what guilt is, and how to make you feel it.
Grandma was considered the strong role model within their household. She assumed the role. It wasn't given to her. Grandfather was by no means the submissive or passive-aggressive type. He chose a mate that could put up with him and didn't mind going toe to toe with him. My mother was the "mini-me" my grandma molded into her own image. Tough, opinionated, practical, resourceful, strong, and beautiful.
So lets fault mothers just a little, for not teaching their daughters to feel confident, strong, naturally beautiful, and helping them build some immunity to the weaknesses and abuses of men. If you watched your mom as you grew up, that is usually the type of woman your wife and girlfriends will be most similar to. The trouble is, if you're a guy; you're going to be a lot like your dad. So you'll perpetuate your family-type many times into the future based on the original mold. So I guess there were a lot of cracked molds when baby-boomers came alone. Lets attribute that to a lot of drug-usage in the 60's, 70's, 80's, and the 90's. It weakened the gene-pool. Smoking is another reason.
Then came technology, social media-dependence, and creative excuses for not being able to cope with the simplest of daily discomforts. The most convenient excuse is always male-sexuality. We are accused of pressuring women to be pretty, wear makeup, Spanx, or they have to have knockout physiques in order to get a date. They watched a lot of TV growing up. Read a lot of magazines, and watched soap operas. That messed us all up. Then came talk-shows.
I love Oprah. So don't go there.
As a child, I was taught that self-esteem came from somewhere inside me. I am a child of an interracial marriage. Born during a time when that was frowned upon,and people publicly expressed their disapproval. Even in-front of us as children when out with our parents. We were taught to be tough, stand-up and be proud, and if anyone put a finger on us, break it.
If parents want to bring offspring into the world. They have a responsibility to arm them for living. Teach your daughter she is strong and her reflection in the mirror is only an image. Not her soul, or the person that she is. She can be whatever she wants to be. Sexually, she is not at the mercy of men. Society sets false rules and unjust laws.
Protest, break them, or fix them.
Porn is nothing but imagery produced to stimulate and manipulate the sexual impulses. People have their own power and using scapegoats and excuses prevents us from changing the sources of weakness; which originates within ourselves.
No picture, video, commercial, or talk-show will ever convince me as a bi-racial gay man; that I don't matter. That I am limited by the color of my skin, and if I don't blend into society according to the status quo, I have no right to exist or be happy. I will work hard and reap my just rewards. I will give back to society, and stand up for what is just and good. Within my human limitations. I know when to say NO or THAT'S ENOUGH! Thanks grandma!
Myself and all my siblings, male and female, were taught by two generations of people that self-worth was not given to us. We were born with it. Confidence was built by loving ourselves, being proud of our heritage and family-history, and having spirituality gives us hope.
People with an upbringing like ours, don't fall victim to statistics; or have unrealistic expectations. We learn that most relationship problems arise from unrealistic expectations; and people using other people to make up for their own weaknesses. People generally don't like themselves or other people. They love placing blame, pointing fingers, criticizing others, and being victims.
As kids we were taught to fight and navigate our way through life. We were told it wouldn't be easy; because of human-nature and that we aren't perfect. We were warned to expect failures, grief, unhappiness, and disappointment. We knew we would makes mistakes, and have to forgive ourselves and others.
Therefore; we were not surprised to encounter rejection, ridicule, teasing, and displeasure. We were told that we had to be ready when we walked out that door; because mom, dad, and our grandparents wouldn't live forever and couldn't protect us from the world. Come home when it got too much, and love my family until I was dead and buried.
I came on this website to offer some of that good old-fashioned parenting that shaped my character. It helped me through times of failure and disappointment. I get sad, angry, and jealous like any other human being. I have had a loving gay partner for 28 years. He died of cancer, so I had to face grief. I got dumped after 10-months, by the first new relationship I had many years after he died.
I survived that, I'm not bitter, and I'm growing older with grace and dignity. Yes, I still get sex. I don't use porn.
I could sit around looking for someone or something to blame. Instead, I use the tools I was given to stay focused, upbeat, happy, and joyous. I have never compared myself to models and athletes. I workout and eat right.
So even at my age, I'm fit and I date. I don't expect 20-somethings to want me at my age. Amazingly, I'm finding
that there are many guys my age and much older looking pretty good. It gives me hope. I wish women could adopt a more positive attitude towards men and themselves. Don't become a statistic, or let the media and self-hate destroy their self-confidence and self-esteem.
The blame starts within us. How we chose to live life and look at ourselves. I know what it's like to be broke, lonely, rejected, and sad. I also know that joy is always just around the corner. I have a loving-family that bring me tears of joy, and just their hugs can energize and inspire me. I have friends who love me; and if I'm invisible too long, they will intrude on my privacy. That comes from looking at life through eyes without pessimism, hatred, or trying to find someone or something else to blame for my problems or unhappiness. I read, attend seminars for self-improvement, go to church, and talk to older people for their wisdom. I learned how to believe
in me and own responsibility for my own happiness. Be tough.
It worked for grandma and granddad, mom and dad. They passed that on to me. Through DC, I try to pass it on to others.
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reader, janniepeg +, writes (9 February 2014):
Maybe off topic but I find it interesting that feminist country Iceland wants to ban online pornography. They have the happiest people but divorce rate is also one of the highest.
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reader, janniepeg +, writes (9 February 2014):
Porn is only part of the problem. Here you have the third aunt and I happen to be a porn watcher. It all depends on who you talk to. If you only look at statistics gathered by porn haters with an agenda then you would feel the need to defend. As to refusing sex because of headaches, stress and no time, that woman would not be me coz I am a pleaser.
On the other hand, I don't doubt that porn has a dulling effect. After time your brain does need extra stimuli to become aroused. I do feel that porn addicts are a problem although addicts of any kind are a minority. Most people just watch porn here and there. Very few actually collect thousands and spend hours a day watching it.
Divorce rate has risen because of freedom. You would see that countries with the highest divorce rate are also the ones in which women have the freedom to speak and be themselves. It's also those countries that are mostly wired to the media. There is a correlation but porn is not the direct blame.
Sometimes porn is to blame. Sometimes women are not putting effort into looking sexy. They think just by removing the porn the problem would be solved. Or they marry unattractive guys because they are more secure. With religion failing it also means the rise of bad boys. With the rise of bad boys women feel they are not getting the best deal when sex with nice guy is boring. When women feel the are not getting the best deal they think to themselves why even try to make an effort.
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reader, Euphoric29  +, writes (9 February 2014):
Dear OP,
I don't find your post mysogynist but I don't agree on some points, I guess. You say "marital problems and divorce rate" have risen during the last years, yet all we know is that the divorce rate has risen. It's not clear at all whether earlier marriages were more harmonious or easier for the partners. It's just clear that people are now less willing and less obliged to suffer through problematic marriages, because both parties can opt out. I think women AND men have advantages from this.
My theory is that the social, religious, economic etc. developments you mentioned have indeed contributed to more conflicts about sex and porn, but that this is a good thing. Today, we don't have to stay together, neither by financial nor religious nor social obligations. We stay together by choice and out of love, desire, friendship etc.. That's why sexual satisfaction, trust, monogamy, romance etc. have become more important determinators of staying together as a couple.
You say women always blame problems on porn.. uhm, I'd like to differ. Since women AND men are staying together by choice, it has become more important to be a "good entertainer" in a relationship. This affects both sexes.
Women often post these "how can I please him" questions, sounding like worried 50s-housewives, but the same women now can leave a guy if they feel too frustrated. This is not to be blamed on porn, but on new expectations about what a relationship should give you on an emotional level.
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reader, anonymous, writes (9 February 2014): I HATE any partner of mine using porn so for this matter I'm a single woman to avoid the pain. If my ex hadn't been so into porn we might of still been together. I'll never understand why they have to do it. Apparently they still do it even if you look and act the same as the pornstars.
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reader, anonymous, writes (9 February 2014): OR
In today society women/men have both the education, support and confidence to leave abusive and unhappy marriages. Which in turn has driven up martial problems and the divorce rate, a good thing. Lets not forget back the "good old days" thing were not so great women and men were both forced to remain in unhappy homes, children were raised in unhappy homes. Why do you think the sixties revaluation happened in the first place the world was oppressed,the women raising children were were oppressed. Forcing the human race to conform never works out well, looks whats happening to religion, abuse of power always follows. We to have our own moral compass not look at an organisation to tell us what right or wrong.
As for porn i dont personally see the problem with it, unless your turning down your partner for a picture. I do think it would be very interesting to see the attitudes of men if the tables were turned on this manner though. If most women openly spent hours getting them selves off looking at pictures bronzed Adonis men hung like horses. We all no how sensitive men can be, look at how many men post on this sight about their partners not been virgins. Their obviously so hung up with insecurities they can only be happy with their performance if she has nothing else to compare it to.
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reader, AuntyEm +, writes (9 February 2014):
I think it's an acumulation of all aspects of these things and probably many more unmentioned.
One thing I know is this:
Everyone is different both men and women. The variables are infinite as are the actual personal reasons why people face problems in their relationships.
Infidelity(with another man or woman) is probably the top reason that people have problems because, quite simply, it is saying to the 'partner,husband, wife'
'YOU ARN'T GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME TO BE LOYAL'
'YOU ARN'T GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME TO STAY'
Nobody wants to face that!
Men in general like porn, but I never saw an ordinary guy walking up the aisle with his collection of magazines or his pile of dirty vids.
Everyone knows the fantasy isn't real, the women arn't portraying reality and that most men actually couldn't handle the reality of living with/like a porn star 24/7!
They couldn't handle the jealousy or the constant demand for sex, or the pressure to have a fit toned perfectly shaped body like the guys in those magazines! or having to walk round in your undies 24/7 lol...
THAT'S WHY IT'S A FANTASY!! it's a short term thrill...not like a real relationship, not like a real woman and not real love!
Some women cannot see that and men become obsessed with it, so it isn't the porn, it's the unrealistic expectation that causes the problems. It's the man saying
'I REPLACE YOU WITH PORN'
If porn didn't exist, there would still be relationship problems, because people expect and feel entitled to perfection in all things.
You can't nail ALL relationship problems to ONE thing, but we know there are many problems in most relationships and there in lies the lesson. To work those problems out, to learn to love unconditionally, to tend the relationship rather than take a dump on it.
Some people make it, many don't. It's really all just an illusion because you can never really know another person more than you know yourself. We all harbour thoughts/secrets/nuances that we would never share with anyone...we'd take them to the grave so to speak and that is the bottom line...it's all an illusion.
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