A
female
age
41-50,
*ardenLover
writes:I just turned 30, well, geeze, I'm not sure what's really important to outline here, but here goes:I've had long relationships throughout my life with the most recent being 5 years now, but I've never made it past 6 years... maybe that's just coincidental. Anyway, I am a hard worker and so is my man. We work hard, we play hard, we travel, and we have a "good" time together. Note good, not great. I'm always wishing someone else were there to make it more fun due to our lack of communication.Communication is very hard with him. He mumbles, can be abrupt and terse to everyone, become angry is anything is bothering him (even if this means he is grumpy with me when I least need it cause he is worried about me), and often a whole group won't know what he's talking about. So it's not just our communication that is poor. He has drank too much in the past, which caused a lot of strain too. This last year has been good, however. He says he will do whatever it takes to keep our relationship, but that's as deep as it goes.I'm so torn. I come home thinking about breaking up with him and there he is sweating away edging our yard and petting our dog. "Hi sex lady," he says. It just makes me cry. He loves me so much and works as hard as I do.The basic is this, he is good to me and we could accomplish so much together, but there is no intellectual or deeper communication that I crave desperately. I keep thinking, why oh why did I cling to this relationship so hard when things were going poorly and now that things are going pretty good, I want out. (In my family, if it's good enough, it would be your stupidity for getting rid of it, and I now have no good excuse.) I don't feel like just saying I want to spend some years alone, then seek intellectual and emotional contacts with men is right on some level. The fear: What if I give up the best thing I ever had, the thing a lot of people crave to have, and reviewing the posts here on cupid, I feel even more selfish. Look at what other people are going through. Is a deeper, more intellectual connection worth risking such hurt? I've been thinking of leaving since the beginning, yet he would make an amazing father and husband... if I let this go, I think I may lose a chance at motherhood. He is even willing to adopt with me, something I've always wanted to do whether I have my own or not.He is successful at his job, but is a tradesman, whereas I have a masters and dream of my Ph.D. and have always dated men with less education than myself. If I talk about my research goals or need for more meaningful employment, he will respond with some boring cliche statement and nothing insightful, helpful, etc. I know he cares, but that's debatable at times. I saw him cry last year when we were really on the verge of break-up and even that seemed fake. Did I mention he has a hard time expressing emotion?I'm not a cheater, never have, and would be crushed if it happened to me, but I dream about it. I have to fantisize about other men during sex. I don't find him attractive anymore, but he pets me to sleep each night, tells me I'm beautiful, cooks, helps with the house inside and out and financially. OMG I'm torn! I want to be with a more intellectually stimulating man who can expresses himself and understands how to communicate. I know they are out there, but will they help dig holes and fix cars? I dreamt of someone to help with with all these chores that I used to do all alone as a student, now I have him, and I feel guilty, because it is not enough. I don't want to be someone who is never happy with what they have, so I feel I have no right to try for more when I already have so much. If that makes any sense. Any thoughts or comments are welcome and thanks in advance for taking the time to read this.
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (20 August 2011): OP you are making progress and that's good. Just keep at it. Remember different people want different things from a relationship and partner. Some people want a soul mate with passion, others just want someone to pay the bills and show up some time. Some people want both. You are not wrong for wanting what you want. Just because someone else decided they wanted a certain thing from their relationship, it doesn't mean you have to want the same thing too, it may not even be possible. The point is that they eventually FELT GOOD about their marriage. You are not feeling good about your relationship. That's a key difference no matter how many other similarities there are. but you won't get what you need by being passive, so you need to do something which it sounds like you are. So just keep at it and see where it takes you. Some times it becomes much clearer after you've struggled with the problem from a different angle for some time.
A
female
reader, GardenLover +, writes (7 August 2011):
GardenLover is verified as being by the original poster of the question I just thought I would give you all an update. Since I confronted my boyfriend and told him how disconnected I was feeling, as though I needed more, and certainly not someone who is usually defensive, he has been trying really hard. I really have to hand it to him.
To the female who saw her past situation in my story, I really can see how it is similar too! I'm trying to stop agonizing about it and just know that I will be fine if we work out and I will be fine if I choose being alone over my 80%. I have a million worries I could list and am not sure which way I would gamble on the turn-out, but I'm trying hard to enjoy the moment.
We went on a date last night and he was sweet and civil, but boring and at times demanding (in traffic, at the restaurant, of my attention). He kissed my back with these little kisses, that I've said I'm not a fan of over and over during the past five years, probably 50 times really close together before I finally just asked him to stop. I tried hard not to label the night something like a waste of time and think about how good he is to me most of the time. However, I was bored and wanting more kept creeping in...
Thanks to you all for such thoughtful and support responses. I really was surprised by how spot on they all were. Thanks a million.
Now that the communication about being dissatisfied is out there, maybe things can finally head in a direction and not just spinning to nowhere.
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A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (31 July 2011): since we live in a culture where we are free to choose who to marry, and where our expectation of marriage is a lifelong partnership, and where your spouse is supposed to be your only intimate partner (therefore if married you are not free to develop more fulfilling relationships with people of the opposite gender if your spouse doesn't meet your needs), therefore to me it's pointless and absurd to choose as a life partner someone who's incompatible with you, and then expect or need them to change their personality or else berate yourself for being unhappy with who they are and not being able to change your own personality.
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A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (30 July 2011): the point is, OP, that you are very unhappy in your marriage.
Marriage shouldn't be a prison sentence and just something to be tolerated until you die.
You've been putting up as long as you can. dont' waste more time. Your relationship is not "fine" if you're feeling like this. it's not all in your head. You have huge problems, so does your husband.
the longer you go on trying to convince yourself that your marriage is perfectly fine and you're crazy for feeling "like this", the longer you will continue to feel "like this."
You need to make a decision. Either leave, or if you're going to stay then something has to change. if your husband doesn't want anything to change, then he's made the decision for you.
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A
male
reader, JustHelpinAgain  +, writes (29 July 2011):
GardenLover, sorry, your initial post was a bit misleading. You clearly have an issue. When relationships form, slowly one person often becomes the life force and it sounds like that was you. I don't know if you partner has the ability or motivation to put more into your relationship but it sounds like its time that you make him give you a sign that the relationship means something. Maybe you put up too much for too long with guys? Men can be very lazy in relationships if given the chance. The issue for you is to make him show he can be more of a partner without making him feel threatened. Was he always like this? Did something change over the years?
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female
reader, GardenLover +, writes (29 July 2011):
GardenLover is verified as being by the original poster of the questionOf course I don't want to be in my head or debating all the time, especially in the bedroom! If he said anything about anything, I would love it. If he told me a joke or a childhood story, I would love it. If he had a sense of humor I would love it. I ask for changes in the way we make love, nothing changes. We can't even talk about sex, although it has been great in the past. I give examples and try very hard not to make him feel defensive, nothing changes. Sigh. In short, it's really empathic responding and communication in general that I need. I love bathroom humor and intellectual debates, either one would be fun. I get excited about something and start joking around, but he'll be too stoned to get what just happened. Then the humor is gone and according to him, it's my fault. I've gotta figure something out.
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male
reader, JustHelpinAgain +, writes (29 July 2011):
After a day in the office I come home and its certainly not my intellect that I like stimulating. Do you want your bedroom to become a debating chamber? I've been there in a previous life and know which I prefer.
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A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (29 July 2011): When i read your experiences it seemed like i was looking at a mirror and seeing my own life reflect back at me. That was a few years ago. And well i want give u a brief summary of my story :
I am well educated, in the legal field. My hb is an artisan, no tertiary education. as i progressed in my career i went though the “ i deserve a better man, a man my equal, a man better educated and a man who meets my emotional needs”. My hb is the best! Yes we have had issues in our marriage but it is nothing we cannot handle. But these thoughts and emotions kept creeping into our lives.
I earn more, and my hb is not fazed by this. He actually encourages me to progress. He is even proud of my achievements. BUT i was the one having issues with him. Started comparing him. And even destroying him slowly with m criticisms. With my “there is better out there” attitude. My hb is a good provider. Stable. Dependable. Lovable. Honest. Faithful. What was/is missing? That intellectual stimulation!
It has taken me years to understand him and made me realise that he is not going to change. My 80% was better than the 20% out there. He was 80% whole and i could not appreciate it. i did not realise it but my attitude, my mannerisms made him feel worthless. Unworthy as well.
I look around my work environment and come across men who are “intellectually stronger” BUT damn they are full of shit! They have so much of baggage and believe they are the cats whiskers. I asked myself whether i wanted a man like that. After doing my homework i realise that my 80% was what i actually needed. So what if my hb wasn’t the brightest bulb in the room, so what id he wasn’t interested in polictics??? And so forth. I had a good quality man, a man to be treasured and a faithful, loving man who makes me so bloody man sometimes, that i want to murder him.
I had to change my thought processes as well. i had to understand that my hb is/was not the “intellectual” type. I also had to learn to respect him. And learn to respect what he enjoyed as well. (he loves hunting/fishing/the outdoors) . I had to find the balance and i did. Sometimes i am horrible with my words and i hurt him (even nowadays as well) yes i get frustrated BUT my hb is a good quality man. A man of morals, principles, honour. And I thank God I had time to realise this.
Op, i am just giving u a bit of my introspections and my findings. I am only touching the very surface with my own experiences b ut i am sure you get what i am trying to tell you. I struggled with myself for a long time and you know what? when the women at work complain about their cheating bfs/hb, or their man not paying child support, or their lazy good for nothing men, i find that i am truly blessed. Blessed to have my hb as my hb. Sometimes society dictates what is “intellectual” and what is not. Not everyone can be professions in life.
So if you are dying for intellectual stimulation , then fine, bugger off and go find that intellectual who will make u feel whole. But think carefully, do not throw away your 80% for just 20%.
I am in my 20th year of marriage. Have a good sex life. Excellent family life. An abundance of love and happiness. Sure we have our issues and our fights but the love, the “happy ever after” is what we worked towards and what we have achieved. I have a good quality man who even though he doesn’t match me intellectually, i would not trade him for anything. WHY? BECAUSE HE IS WORTH IT. i feel very honoured to be his wife. ( i had to do a lot of growing up and a lot of maturing to come to this peace in my life)
LoveGirl
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A
male
reader, Roshii  +, writes (28 July 2011):
 I wish you the best of luck in what you decide, also i hoped i helped in any small way.
Remember you are in control of your life and the decisions you make will always rest in your life.
I live my life with no regrets and i am a very "to heart" person, If i feel a certain way about something i run with it.
So it's quite hypocritical for me to say "Take your time". Sometimes Regret lays heavy in a persons mind and sometimes it escapes them as if it didn't exist.
Perhaps finding something that your partner knows a lot about and delving into his interest may help him open up to you as well as becoming more susceptible to letting you connect with him.
Least that way you know you tried everything in your power.
I wish you luck.
Roshii
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A
female
reader, GardenLover +, writes (28 July 2011):
GardenLover is verified as being by the original poster of the question"...sooner or later you find yourself locked into a pattern of being upset over recurring themes..."
This started in the beginning. I always tell him, this is the same argument we've always had. I've noticed that we have a hard time communicating about anything. I just really have no idea what he is talking about and neither does anyone near enough to hear us, but he tries to turn it around on me. This is why I say I am so angry with myself for not dropping this sooner. It's like I stood on the tracks and waited for the train to hit and now I'm just hanging onto the front of it, terrified to let go even though I know I will live.
I took a codependency scale the other day and was surprised to find that I was in the low half of the middle range! What a drag. I've worked on correcting these things about myself, yet karma sends them back to me. I still have not learned my lesson.
Thanks for the validation this experience has offered me, because I felt I must be crazy for a long time to give up the best relationship I have ever had.
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A
female
reader, chocoholicforever +, writes (28 July 2011):
You communicated honestly with him and his response is to accuse you of calling him a failure. Unless you specifically called him a failure or used blaming-and-shaming language, he is emotionally blackmailing you. He's trying to prevent you from bringing up (and thus working on) relationship problems, by making you feel so bad that you will shut up and then he won't have to face the issues. the fact that no matter how gentle you try to be when bringing things up he still becomes defensive and stonewalls (refuses to communicate) again shows that he's trying to stop you from speaking the truth because he's very afraid of conflict and wants to avoid it or push it under the carpet at all costs.
Conflict avoidance is a silent killer of relationships. In the short term it looks like things are OK because there's no fighting or heated emotions. But conflict avoidance is in the long-term a killer of relationships because problems never can get resolved if everyone is pretending that they don't exist and being fake with each other all the time while true thoughts and feelings are not allowed to be heard. sooner or later you find yourself locked into a pattern of being upset over recurring themes yet unable to say it and thus no way to make things better.
it also sounds like he has very low self esteem and is making it your responsibility to ensure he doesn't feel bad about himself. This is unhealthy, not just for himself but for the relationship. You don't have the power to regulate his self esteem and his sense of self worth, no one has that kind of power, only he does. But by making it your responsibility for how good or bad he feels about himself, the result is that you can't speak honestly or say the truth or just be yourself, i.e. it further blocks communication and leads to fake-ness.
Ask yourself if you're co-dependent (do you believe that you do have to suppress your true thoughts and feelings and needs to the point of being insincere, in order to preserve his fragile self-esteem). I only say this because, usually when relationships get locked into this pattern, it's not something that happens overnight but over a period of time. Which means that even though he has issues he needs to deal with that are independent of you (his low self esteem and his fear of conflict) at the same time your way of relating to him has also somehow fostered and enabled that to grow and be maintained.
You can't change who he is, or "make" him see what his issues are that he needs to work on, but you can identify and work on your issues that you bring to the relationship and maybe that may spark some positive change between you because something will be different.
If in the past you've tried to communicate and been shut out by his stonewalling or his emotional blackmail, you can try to change this pattern by changing your own behaviors such as, by not backing down and allowing his guilt tripping (accusations of you making him feel a failure) to stop you from communicating in as productive a way as you as you can, not allowing it to unravel you to where you're crying and thus further blocking communication and adding to the negative atmosphere (you can cry later on when you're alone to release pent up emotion, but uncontrolled crying in front of your partner during arguments usually leads to more downward spiraling and walled off behaviors and might make him even more fearful of engaging in communication).
it could be that you two are just incompatible, or you could actually be sufficiently compatible. But there's no way to know which is the case if there's no communication and no ability to be your true self in your relationship because your partner doesn't want to hear what you have to say. His vague promise to "try" is pretty much meaningless if there was no discussion of what it even means.
that said, huge problems don't all get solved overnight or all at once, but I think that the first step has to be to be able to at least communicate a bit more than you have been.
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A
female
reader, GardenLover +, writes (28 July 2011):
GardenLover is verified as being by the original poster of the questionLast night he asked what could he do for me and I said I didn't think it was something he could give me. Although Last night I decided to go for it and try to talk to him about it, give him a chance. I said, I do love him and appreciate the millions of things that he does for our life, but I wish desperately that we could communicate in other areas besides dinner, home repair, and bla bla. He said I was calling him a failure. I never fails that he becomes either quiet or defensive if I say anything, no matter how gentle I try to be. I said this situation was a good example and just started to cry. He said nothing except he will try. I'm not even sure what he means, become intellectually-oriented over night? Suddenly be able to connect with me emotionally? I said it was unfair any maybe impossible for him to change that way. Also, that it's not fair for either one of us to continue on like this.So far, he just acts like nothing happened. Thanks so much for all your thoughts so far. It is sincerely appreciated.
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A
female
reader, chocoholicforever +, writes (26 July 2011):
this is a tough situation, and you summed it very well:
"In my family, if it's good enough, it would be your stupidity for getting rid of it, and I now have no good excuse."
I think what it boils down to is basically have to find your own values and philosophy by which you live life. The values and philosophy you inherited from your family may or may not be "you." Maybe it is, maybe it's not.
Yes there are many people who feel that you should make do with what you have, be grateful and happy with what you have and not "throw it away" to seek anything more. This can apply to anything in life: jobs, career, where to live, whether to buy a house, whether to buy a car....certainly it applies to relationships too.
On the one hand it's good because if it ain't broke then don't fix it. There's also a lot to be said that the grass isn't greener on the side, it's greener where you water it, and to be more realistic in your expectations from life otherwise you're always going to be unsettled, etc etc.
However if you're feeling very upset and discontent, then I think that means that something IS "broke." So maybe this philosophy isn't serving you well or not in this situation. Certainly this "be happy with what you have if it's good enough" doesn't work well for everyone or even for the same person in all situations. If your not happy, then by definition it's NOT "good enough" and something is wrong.
Being content exactly with what you have and not wanting more, means that many people wouldn't aspire to do great things with their lives - there would be no inventions, medical breakthroughs, startup companies, non-profits and charities, and so on. If no one ever sought something more than their current situation in life, a lot of good in this world wouldn't get done, and many people would be chronically unhappy. (and people who are chronically unhappy tend to bring others down as well.)
In the realm of marriage, there is a strong cultural pressure to stay with what you have in the name of "commitment." But again, that may or may not mean that it's right for you, you have to do a lot of soul searching and find out where your heart lies. Many people find much better, less toxic, less dysfunctional, longer lasting, more fulfilling, healthier relationships in their second or later marriages than in their first, for a variety of reasons. If they had continued clinging to something that was really making them unhappy, they would have cheated themselves and their partner out of a better life. But this again goes back to your values - if you were brought up to believe that it's somehow 'bad' to want anything more than the bare minimum, then the validity of this is what you have to struggle with. Ask yourself why you would feel that you have no right to want more? where does that guilt come from?
Making comparisons with other people's relationships is not very productive because you don't really know what goes on in other people's relationships. You're judging your own relationship from your perspective as an insider, with what you perceive other people's relationships to be from the perspective of an outsider. And each person brings their own baggage and past hurts and needs to their relationship so something that you judge to be of no consequence in your relationship, could be a huge deal to someone else in theirs, and vice versa. Furthermore, just because someone else has it worse than you, doesn't mean that you couldn't do better either. For every person who has it worse than you, there are people who have it better than you too. For example if you got into a car accident and lost the use of one of your legs, would you decide not to go through surgery and physical therapy to try and regain the use of that limb, just because you're aware that there are other people who dont' even have legs at all? Wouldn't you stay focused on what you need because whether or not you improve your situation in life probably doesn't have impact the people who have it worse than you whom you're using as comparisons.
only you know the level of distress you feel from being in your situation. If the discomfort exceeds your ability to stick with your values/philosophy about the intrinsic worth of staying with what you have, then sooner or later you will probably be driven to change your values, which may be a good thing if it means that there is harmony between your actions and your philosophies.
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female
reader, chigirl  +, writes (26 July 2011):
 My question for you is: do you love him?You might think you have what everyone wants... but do you? No one wants to settle with less. No one wants to marry a man they never truly loved. Yet again.. no one says what you want is what will make you eternally happy. But my question still stands, do you love him? And be honest, it's okay if you don't. I've just seen women come here on dearcupid having a horrible time in their marriage saying they married a man they never loved.. and my question is WHY ON EARTH DID THEY MARRY? Which is why I ask you to please not settle with him, or go as far as marrying him, unless you actually do love him. Deep intellectual communication should be the minimum standard. I've seen couple who have that understanding of each other, and knowing what it's like from personal experience, and seeing it in others, I know I could never settle for less and marry a man I didn't feel complete with. So, I might never marry at all if that's the case, but rather not at all than with the wrong man. I don't think you should carry on any longer with this man. For the simple reason that you aren't fulfilled. So maybe that intellectually stimulating man won't change your tires, but heck, you're a grown woman. You can change them yourself. Back when you were a student this might have been what you needed, but as a grown adult you need something else. Don't get hung up on what you thought you needed, when it shows this isn't what you need at all. You can dig your own holes, or hire someone to do it. But you can't hire someone to carry a meaningful conversation with you. By the way, 5 years is a lot of time to spend with someone, by now you know whether or not he's "the one" (if I can use such a cliché). Your conclusion so far is: OMG I'm torn! AKA not: OMG HE'S SO AMAZING I WANT TO MARRY HIM AND LOVE HIM FOREVER AND EVER. He's a nice guy it sounds like, set him free to find someone less intellectual that will be happy with him digging holes and mumble without sense. Everyone's looking for different things, and he'll find the one who wants just what he is, and Im am sure (or hoping for my sake as well) that you will find someone who is what you need and want as well. Rather be alone than with someone you don't want to be with out of fear of leaving them, don't you think? Let him down nicely and try to remain friendly and civil (no contact for some months then keep in touch every now and then). Who knows, if the friendship works he'll continue to dig your holes while you have stimulating conversations with a new guy... you never know how things will work out.
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A
male
reader, Roshii +, writes (26 July 2011):
What if your vision of perfection is impossible to attain? What if you found this out on your death bed would you look back at this relationship as a key one and wonder what would of happened if you had stayed and worked at it? These are questions I'm sure you've already asked yourself. The thing with intelligence is children, are the ones that come out with the most profound things. My argument is that if children can do it so can adults. I believe you're not asking for much, you just need a partner who'll take an interest in what you do. What you've worked at to attain. Have you told him this though? What if we ignore that aspect or fault. If it wasn't there could you see this relationship lasting? That's a sure fire way of knowing if this is something solely to do with the relationship or yourself. If you decide to work at it, or not, though is something that rests on your shoulders. (it's not in my nature to suggest such things)I can only say that you wont know for certain until you try and give your partner the opportunity to change by working on your communication. If he loves you he'll at least try. I hope I've helped in some way. Roshii
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