A
female
age
51-59,
anonymous
writes:Hello there,What is your view on verbal abuse?I was having a drink with a kinda newish 'friend' (a friend of my estranged brothers - who are both violent narcissists but no-one knows my past with them) and he suddenly turned the subject into one of the rape laws. Out of no-where he said that the accused should not be named and also that women should not be allowed to prosecute men for crimes from 20 years ago because times were different then and women didn't mind being touched. He said he personally knew women who didn't mind having their bottoms squeezed and pinched.. I informed him that I knew women who did mind being touched, myself included. I also said that up to ten years ago I started hiding my boobs because they are large and I couldn't go places without them being pinched, touched or commented on. I got so bored of it that I just started to cover them. He then said that I wouldn't have minded if it had been my behind being felt. I said, yes...I would...no difference. At this point he began to go into a rage...and I mean a rage and we are in a pub garden.He said that I had to stop fucking talking, that I was making him angry and that I was a fucking liar and a hypocrite. He said that I would love to touched up by someone I fancied and I wouldn't complain. I said i would knee the shit in the balls if he did.He was now standing up and told me that if I didn't stop fucking talking over friendship would be over. I remained incredibly calm and said that I was entitled to my opinion about being groped and he was wrong. I then said that I had no idea he was so fragile and said if I had known I would have taken more care with him. He went off into a rage and stormed off.He then sent me a text telling me what an aggressive person I was and how I should apologise to him. He said other things but you get the drift. I sent one back saying his behaviour was out of order and we kinda decided to put it behind us. I was now aware I was dealing with a narcissist and I thought I would tread very carefully, as I know their tactics.Anyway, role on a few weeks later and I am out with his girlfriend and he explodes again at me telling me to stop fucking talking, that our friendship would be over if I didn't and I said fine. it's over.He then proceeded to call me names and insult me. He went away and then came back to name call me again by which time I held my hand out and said stop..please go now. I don't want to talk with you.I then got a very unpleasant text ending the friendship (yay!). I just wanted to ask people...what is the law with verbal abuse. Is someone standing up in front of you and telling you to shut the fuck up because you're making them angry illegal?Thank you.
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female
reader, Youcannotbeserious +, writes (30 May 2019):
 I wasn't going to bother dipping into this one again as the other aunts and uncles seem to have it covered pretty well, including some anonymous posters. However, I just had to state that I find it very sad that someone can liken this heated altercation to RAPE. I mean, HONESTLY? It actually makes ME want to yell at the op and tell her to act her age, but I can't do that because it would be "abuse", right?
It's interesting how your view can change over a matter of a small number of posts. When I read the first post, my impression was the op was an enlightened reasonable woman who got into an argument with an unstable man with very outdated views on women. Both players in the scene sounded to have strong views on the subject under discussion and both sounded headstrong and determined to win the argument.
The more responses and psychobabble I read from the op, the more I feel (a) she is a psychology student/reporter doing research and keeps pushing the boundaries to see what reactions/responses she will get and/or (b) she cannot admit she may have been anything but 100% right and 100% a victim.
I am beginning to see what may have contributed, in no small part, to the male friend exploding as he did (again, in no way excusing his behaviour but starting to understand what may have lead to it).
Op, if you are NOT just a student/reporter doing some strange research, I would suggest you do some research on "victim syndrome".
A
male
reader, N91 +, writes (29 May 2019):
 Definitely not verbal abuse.
I’d class it as repeated verbal attacks of a derogatory manner to make someone feel inferior or to purposefully break them down. It sounds like you had an argument with this guy, nothing more.
He’s a dick, yes, that’s clear to see, but you also didn’t help the situation by arguing back. Stand up for yourself all you want, but how could it be verbal abuse if you’re contributing to the stirring up of the situation? IMO just sounds like 2 stubborn people who didn’t want to back down, I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it and I’d be amazed if you could get him prosecuted for anything over this.
Forget about it and move on.
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A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (29 May 2019): OP i seriously suggest you watch the news more often and see what a 'victim' is, i would class a victim as a woman who has been for example, beaten to death, raped, sex trafficked. The very fact you are classing yourself as a victim i find sad if i am honest.When i was in the armed forces i had senior ranks ask me outright for sex and they gave me abuse for saying no, am i a victim? No, were they out of order, yes absolutely but said just to me so what could be proven? You get men with outdated opinions or a difference of opinion that you don't like, like this man to you but seriously you are asking if you should call the police on him? You know full well as you have said yourself it was between you and him, your word against his so what is the point in going on about it? He has said he wants no more to do with you so no continued abuse on his part. We get it and we agree he seems like he is aggressive in his ways and if it happened as you said he was out of order, BUT it is your word, sorry bit maybe he would have a different version of events.Honestly i think he said something that irked you and it seems to be the part he didn't believe you wouldn't like the attention, but that is just my opinion, i think you need to ask yourself why you are so hell bent on carrying this on? At the end of the day we wasn't there, if you felt threatened, if you feel he is still a threat, if YOU feel you should talk it through with the police feel free to do so, but i am sorry the way you are replying on here it seems to me and others from their replies you are coming across as very defensive and aggressive yourself. It's up to you what you choose to do, but we have all given you our opinions, he gave you a gob full end of.
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A
female
reader, Andie's Thoughts +, writes (29 May 2019):
 OP, "motivesplaining"? Not a thing. Like genuinely not a thing. You're being very stubborn and immature about this (on here). Whilst his actions were unacceptable, they weren't legally abusive and you being stubborn made the situation continue. Again: NOT YOUR FAULT, but you did continue to argue with someone who was clearly getting angry. If I argue back and forth with someone and they hit me, it is not remotely my fault, but I didn't try to de-escalate the situation either.Rape is not REMOTELY the same thing, so don't try to compare victim-blaming with rape to this. You are taking this too far and you don't want to see that. Talk to a psychologist and see what they think about how stubborn you're being about this. His behaviour was horrible and being yelled at can be intimidating, but this doesn't legally count as abuse.Seriously, OP. You're being very passive-aggressive and hardheaded. If you are this way with others, you will contribute to negative experiences like this, even if their outbursts aren't your fault.
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A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (29 May 2019): Call the police and have an informal chat about it then decide.
I second Honeypies last reply to you
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A
female
reader, Honeypie  +, writes (29 May 2019):
 So VERY passive aggressive, OP
Being yelled at and feeling intimidated by someone IS never pleasant and is probably scary for some, NO ONE is saying that HIS ACTIONS was EVER OK.
In BOTH situations it was possible for you to extricate yourself (unlike in a case of rape - which is a horrific physical act) - which might be why people made the presumption that it wasn't fear for your life that made you stay and argue back (the first time) and you obviously was able to ask him to leave the second time.
NO ONE - ABSOLUTELY NO ONE here are blaming HIS actions and words on you.
NO ONE - ABSOLUTELY NO ONE here is saying a woman shouldn't stand up for herself. But some (including me) think that self-preservation should be higher in the priority list (or for MYSELF, personally would be higher on the priority list) than arguing, listing facts or trying to convince someone like him (who seems RATHER unstable) of HER truth. The REASON he goes off a tangent so explosively is because he KNOWS most people don't agree with him. THAT is my guess.
And when it comes to giving ADVICE on here... that is ALL we can do. GUESS. "motivesplaining" as you call it. BECAUSE THAT is all we can go on. Trying to read a situation from a post and read in-between the lines. (which might or might not BE there) And write you an answer based on WHAT we would (most likely) DO in you shoes. THIS is NOT a legal based website.
You bring up rape and physical violence. IT IS NOT the same as being yelled at.
Because YES! if he had punched or TRIED to punch you in the face or wherever, you KNOW people would have said why didn't you call the Police immediately? He should be locked up! THAT is common sense.
You CAN call the Police and ASK what laws are on the books or even what should you do in such a situation - OR you can contact Citizen's Advice for LEGAL advice.
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A
female
reader, Aunty BimBim  +, writes (29 May 2019):
 The danger here is that you will be viewed as a vexatious litigant …. you have little to no chance of winning a case in a court of law, and if you did get it as far as court and then lost or it is thrown out of court, which I suspect will be the outcome, this man will then feel vindicated in his words and actions and that perceived vindication may spur him on the say and act even worse. Is that what you want?
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (29 May 2019): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionOnce again, thank you for your replies. Of course I won't be seeing him again. I thank you all for your time and interesting opinions - it is kind of you to go out of your way and help people.
Just on a separate but related note, I am finding reactions to telling people this objectively fascinating, not just on here. There is definitely an element of victim-blaming or not even seeing a crime as been committed at all. I am going to repeat some things I have encountered (and previously wrote down).
1. No display of empathy. Only one comment saying sorry this has happened to you. Inability to express concern about my well-being on any level - not even a basic are you ok? Fascinating.
2. Dismissive - it's not bad actually and you're mis-using the word abuse. You don't know what it means. Actually,threats and intimidation are crimes and they can carry custodial penalties. This is not just a case of someone expressing their free speech in a heated debate and I am out for revenge i.e motivesplaining.
3.Blame-shifting. I am to partly to blame for this by
a) Actually having the misfortune of being in his company when he exploded into a rage and threatened me. b) not reacting in a text-book manner.The 'you were there' is actually insane as culpability.
4. My motives being TOLD to me (motivesplaining). YOU wanted this. YOU want that. YOU thought this. This is why YOU were there, this is why YOU want to report it to the police. This suggests the person listening does not actually recognise threats and intimidation as crimes. I am now the one on trial for wanting help.
Without witnesses, I wouldn't stand a chance as it would come down to one person v another and so reasonable doubt would ensure a non-conviction. Also, if a jury held the same views as the points above I would be screwed. Luckily this isn't about rape and a)I wore a short skirt. b) sat and spoke with him. c) didn't scream at the right moment d) clearly it's about revenge.
Anyway, thank you once again. You have been very helpful and I appreciate your time and effort. x
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A
female
reader, Andie's Thoughts +, writes (28 May 2019):
OP, verbal abuse is more than this. Typically, it is one-way without continuing the debate whilst they are being verbally abusive. Had you not continued the debate, it could have passed into verbal abuse. This was someone being rude and shouting at you. Had he followed you, then it could have been harassment.
I’ve been verbally abused by my dad and bullies for years. This once or twice by a new “friend” in a heated disagreement, then him being an explosive jerk afterwards, is a verbal attack, but not abuse. Someone holding power over you or repeatedly having these outbursts is abuse.
This was not your fault at all, but that doesn’t mean it was wise to keep disagreeing with him as he was building up to it still be in contact after the first outburst. You saw it was getting heated and continued anyway. It’s never smart to keep it going until one of you explodes. That’s stubborn, but doesn’t mean you deserved the verbal attack.
Nobody is taking the blame away from him - they’re solely saying that you could/should have walked away when it was building up and could/should have cut all contact with him after the first outburst. This is a learning curve. If someone is behaving irrationally like him, do not stay because it is not necessarily safe. Hopefully his girlfriend will report him if he has outbursts with her because it then becomes abusive (if repeated) and he’ll get the consequences.
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A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (28 May 2019): You could pursue the police on verbal assault, not sure where it would get you or what benefit it would be for you to do so. Or you draw a line under it and dont be in his company again, since you was in it by choice the occasion you did meet him.
He has raised a red rag to you in what he said and I'm thinking you want to punish him in some way,he pushed a button and so did you.
Draw a line under it as he has done, he has told you on his side that's the end of it, move on.
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A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (27 May 2019): As I understood your post OP, after his first blow up at you, you were with his girlfriend when you encountered him in public. Check with your local police to ask if there is a city or town ordinance which count breach of the peace, as a misdameanor crime. Also if that man has been drinking to excess, you can notify local police that you believe that he is drunk in public and behaving in an aggresive and threatening manner with you. One or two of these reports to your police, and they will go to court with you, to ask a judge to grant a restraining order of protection, against the perpitrator. You should have no contact with him anymore. You did right in the pub, remaining calm and staying put, until he left. Had you walked out, such a man might have followed you and committed an assault against you. You are always safer to stay in said public business, and notify police of your location and ask for an officer to come there as soon as available. That officer can deal with the rowdy offender,at once! Good Luck
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (27 May 2019): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionHello 'Youcannotbeserious', thank you for your message and I am sure at the bottom of your heart you are wanting the best for me, so thank you. I appreciate all messages.
I'm going to try and respond in numbered points (and it all comes from a good place).
Objectively, I am finding it interesting to see how people react to a woman saying she has been verbally abused/threatened. (And not just on here).
1).Dismissive - you probably weren't abused - you're mis-using the term. Question: From your knowledge and experience what is the correct interpretation just so I can know and anyone else reading this can know. Thank you.
2). You kinda brought this 'abuse' on yourself. Blame-shifting. (Also, you weren't really abused).
3)Being told what your motives were and what you were thinking when the attacks happened.
4) Being told you didn't give a text book reaction during and after the attack therefore you are to partly to blame.
4)At some level you're as as bad as he is because you were there.
It is fascinating. Of course, I am not going to see him again but it interesting and I thank you for your time and effort.Bless you.
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A
female
reader, Youcannotbeserious +, writes (27 May 2019):
There are many things which have changed for the better over the years (such as attitudes towards men feeling free to grope women whenever they choose). However, one of the things which I personally feel is almost a step backwards is the way people freely bandy about terms like "bullying" and "abuse" when what they are talking about is nothing of the sort.
Op, unless I misunderstood your post, you were not held captive during the first altercation. You were free to walk away when this Neanderthal starting ranting at you. You were free to walk away from his ranting. You CHOSE to stay and argue. You CHOSE not to remove yourself from the situation when he started calling you names. Just like him, you wanted to WIN the argument. I am, of course, in no way excusing his prehistoric behaviour or attitude, but, from what I understand, you contributed to the "abuse" you feel you suffered by staying and arguing with him instead of walking away.
You sound like a reasonably intelligent and enlightened woman. Take responsibility for your contribution towards what happened and stay away from this idiot.
If he continues to confront you when you are out and about with friends, then keep a record of all incidents and speak to your local police station with a view to having someone warn him that he cannot behave in this way. You could even try to get a restraining order against him, which would prevent him approaching you or harassing you. However, you need to be whiter than white yourself and not place or keep yourself in situations where he can shout at you.
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A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (27 May 2019): No. It isn't. Being a prick isn't illegal. This kind of pushback is likely to happen more and more.
A certain type of men are having their belief system systematically challenged by reality--they may have read what they believe to be true online only to have it clash with reality when they talk with actual women. You can only tell them the truth. But a belief system when systematically challenged by reality can react badly and can be scary. You should be thanked for doing your part in dismantling this belief system but there is no protection from misogyny(except in employment) in English Law as there is from racism, homophobia etc. This should change but as it is there is none. This man was no friend to you. Only when you didn't challenge him was he friendly-when you stayed in your place. He literally threatened to break things off when you disagreed. How entitled is that? Other red flags include becoming irrationally angry about an intellectual disagreement in a public place! Lord knows what would have happened in private. I hope that this post helps you understand that he, not you is on the wrong side of the argument, but that as these misconceptions are challenged it might get more uncomfortable for a time until it gets easier. I'm a man who is very sorry you and other women still have to have these battles and where I see them I'll have the too.
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A
female
reader, Andie's Thoughts +, writes (27 May 2019):
OP, this is not abuse. Verbal abuse is a thing, but this isn’t it. This is just a jerk using his right to free speech. You can’t put that kind of thing behind you, even the first time. It shows what they’re like and what they believe. It was always going to happen again. He doesn’t respect women or consent.
You just accept that that’s who he is and remove him from your life.
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (27 May 2019): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionHello,
Thank you for your answers and taking the time to reply, it is very kind of you and I appreciate it.
Aunty BimBim, thank you for the link. It did answer my question - it would come under intentional harassment, alarm and distress.
This isn't a question of thought police or trying to control someone. it is about aggressive, threatening behaviour which is not the same as someone being entitled to their own opinion. it goes over a line into abuse - not the same thing as so two people disagreeing on a subject. Also, there is a difference between a subjective and objective opinion. If I recount a subjective, personal story of being groped and how I disliked it, being told I am a liar is actually invalidation and not a difference of opinion.
If I were punched in the face, I doubt I would be told to block him and move on with my life. I think I would be encouraged to report him to the police. Verbal threatening behaviour should not be brushed under the carpet. I mean...threatening, not a little disagreement.
Could I get a conviction? hell no. But this is a serious subject and actually is about the legality of his behaviour. Getting a conviction would be about taking him out of society so he cannot harm another. Impossible to prove and so he remains at large.
Will I see him again - of course not, he's insane.
Anyway, thank you so much for listening and replying. it's good to know you Aunts are out there.
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A
female
reader, Honeypie +, writes (27 May 2019):
STOP hanging round him OP?!
He obviously can not handle people of a different opinion or he just REALLY likes to ARGUE and "win".
Either way he sounds like a total dick and not someone I'd spend time around.
Would I sue him for being a dick? NO, he isn't worth the hassle and JUST like YOU are allowed to have your own opinions, SO IS HE! (even if they are DUMB-ASS opinions)!
And OP, the whole idea of "thought police" is just neither here nor there. Him telling you to shut up because he he doesn't like what you say isn't illegal per se. I think that is acting a bit like him with going overboard, YOU think you can "teach him a lesson" and he will change henceforth but all you will achieve is pissing off someone who might not be entirely mentally stable.
I'd just CALM down. I know, it's not a nice feeling being told to shut up or yelled at, but you KNEW how he have behaved in the past and you kept hanging out with him, so why are you so surprised that he AGAIN acted a total dick?
You did the right thing when he left and came back to hurl more insults, you told him to leave.
BLOCK him, remove him from EVERY inch of your life and move on.
And take this as a learning experience, if someone ACTS like a dick, they don't get a second or third chance, they get cut of. Instead of trying to make this about legality of what OTHERS can say and do.
You CAN NOT change or control this man, you CAN NOT "reform" him - ALL you can control is HOW you respond in return. If this is who he is he will not make many friends and THAT is on him.
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A
female
reader, Aunty BimBim +, writes (27 May 2019):
I did a quick google search "UK verbal abuse" … apparently the relevant law comes under the following:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64#pt1-l1g4
You need to decide what you expect to come of this ….have you reliable witnesses, will you need a lawyer, is it worth the cost, will the police see the situation as a crime or as a nasty exchange of words between friends and your reporting it as a crime as a waste of police resources.
Is it REALLY worth the hassle? Only you can decide that, personally I'd be celebrating the fact a toxic person had removed himself from my circle of friends and would be madly blocking his number on my phone and making sure he was also blocked on all social media.
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