| A
female
,
anonymous
writes: I would be interested to see what other think of this latest research and how it relates to the never ending stream of people being hurt by porn in their relationships....seems for some people porn may be ok and have little impact in the beginning but eventually it Here is the research Im citing.....'Men rate themselves as being less in love with their partner after looking at Playboy centrefolds than they did before seeing the pictures of beautiful women," writes Michael Levine in Psychology Today. "This finding is all the more surprising because getting someone aroused normally boosts their attraction to their partner. But seeing beautiful models wiped out whatever effect the men might have experienced from being sexually aroused. The strange thing is, being bombarded with visions of beautiful women (or, for women, socially powerful men) doesn't make us think our partners are less physically attractive. It doesn't change our perception of our partner. Instead, by some sleight of mind, it distorts our idea of the pool of possibilities." impacts on how men see their partners..'What do people think about this???
View related questions:
porn Reply to this Question
Share |
Fancy yourself as an agony aunt? Add your answer to this question! A
female
reader, willywombat  +, writes (18 December 2006):
 Sorry to drag this out again, but I really cannot see why the femal anon feels the need to have a go at martini just fro having a differing opinion to hers, taking the whole subject way off track and getting personal too!!
Leave bunny alone you bullies....
:-)
A
female
reader, willywombat +, writes (18 December 2006):
Can I join in? Tough, am going to anyway.
Right, Martini, I KNOW where you are coming from and I understand what you are saying TOTALLY. I like the story about the corn cobs and stuff. I understand you are of Asian origin, so your 'culture' probably has different ideas of beauty to say, our alleged 'Western' ideals. But the point is, beauty is in the eye of the bholder. Why am I saying this....well, most of the female anons on here are equating 'beauty' with 'porn'. I just can't see this. Being in a sexually provocative pose is not beautiful - it is being in a sexually provacative pose!! ie. ready for sex. Just because an individual uses this image to bring themselves to orgasm or get off does not mean they find them beautiful. It means they need physical relief that they may not be getting elsewhere. This also does not automatically mean that they are not getting 'it' from their partner, it may mean they can't be arsed having sex with all it's dribbly bits and messiness just at that moment.
As fro the Research quoted. This is just a quote from one piece of research!! ONE!! I am sure if I bothered I could find you ahlf a dozen to argue it down. This is not empirical research which proves causation. It isn't even a piece of correlational research. It is just a little piece which may or may not indicate something and as such can be used to 'prove' your point.
Ball back in your court!
...............................
A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (7 December 2006): Good on you Martini...start giving some of the ideas on how the average wife and mother feels and maybe they will wake up to themselves and get their hands off their willies
...............................
A
male
reader, Yos  +, writes (6 December 2006):
 You'll be pleased to know i'm quoting some of this in front of a room full of advertising people on friday. Should be fun :)
...............................
A
reader, anonymous, writes (5 December 2006): 8]
[drum roll with the breath of my sighs] And I rest my case. Some people criticize the contents of a 1000 page book based on the title of the book, rather than read and try to understand the contents themselves.
...............................
A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (5 December 2006): so basically what your saying is that we craete the media the media ideal of women is 20yr old flawless not fit healthy mums with stretch marks...therefore mums like myself (no Im not a teenager) are automatically disqualified from you 'most physically beautiful list' Oh didums, I spose its no problems for you yet but god help the poor woman who decides to push some of your offspring into the world....Its already clear your gonna be one of those sleazy old men sitting on a park bench whilst your porr beautiful (in a way you cant see) wife works her guts out at home...Poor woman I have pity on her....Do yourself and the worlds women a favour....stay single and date flawless porn women...you deserve them more than you could EVER imagine
...............................
A
reader, anonymous, writes (5 December 2006): [sighing profusely] And who dictates media? The people dictate media. Just because some teenager comes onto DearCupid and complains that she isn't skinny or beautiful or her skin is rough or whatever, and that she can't compare to those voluptuous models in our ads and magazines, it doesn't mean that media isn't made up of a body of people. It's like arguing that religion isn't an interpretation of what people read, think, and feel. I know exactly through my interpretation of what beauty is to me. Media doesn't have to tell me what is beautiful. I AM THE MEDIA. YOU ARE A PART OF THE MEDIA. WE ARE ALL THE MEDIA.
Whether the minority accepts this fact or not, we make up the raw brute mentality of what beauty is. There is preference to take into consideration first and foremost. MY GOSH, I even recently wrote an essay entry on my blog about beautiful women and physical attire and how that works in societies around the world. I even put in the mentality of pygmies, amazon tribes, and the such. [sigh] I'm not going to argue this point any more. You along with others will continue to look at this from one angle, and from that one angle only. There is no point in arguing and debating with someone who has extreme absolute views of the glorification of women and beauty. I offered my point of views, angles, and I said all my points from the middle ground, as neutral as I can say them. If out of the entire debate, I have told you that I understand and can comprehend about sentimental beauty versus actual raw physical beauty, but in return you continue to only attack my points at face value, then fine do what you want, I will have absolutely no part of this.
However, for the other Ms. Anon - the one who actually asks very intelligent questions, I will continue to answer your's.
[sigh] It sucks when in a debatable discussion, some people come around and only attack single points using other's people's comments and opinions at very face-value, surface arguments if I may call them that. They don't see the bigger picture using ALL THE DETAILS. Why? Why must I be so prone to such retarded debates? Why?
[ponders]
Cuz I'm a sucker for stuff like that. 8/ Especially since my 'fans' are probably laughing with and at me at the moment they read my words. This debate would definitely make a good starting point as an entry in my own blog. [bows]
...............................
A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (5 December 2006): ' these porn stars refine their bodies to the point where they feel is the ultimate avatar of being beautiful - wearing anything will only complement and not solely complete them. They can be wearing a bikini, a blouse and skirt, they can be naked, they can be wearing pants and a sweater, etc, etc, and they would still look great. Where as many 'average' people need nice clothes to make themselves look better.
This is a mindframe that is unavoidable, because so long as human nature dictates what is good and what isn't, we can't change this aspect of ourselves naturally.'
Rubbish....media dictates what is beautiful....evident in the fact that different cultures may see your USA model as a skinny runt totally lacking in beauty....we are a brainwashed society...being told what is beautiful so that there is no need to look inside.
...............................
A
reader, anonymous, writes (5 December 2006): [sigh] To Ms. Anon who thought that I said it is uncommon for women to have stretch marks after giving birth - are you blind and ignorant of my words?
Please re-read this paragraph again:
--Getting stretch marks, having wrinkles, getting fat, chubby, etc are all possible results of having children. They are also possible results for having a lot of stress, imbalanced hormones when having a period, exercising without proper stretching, and so on and so forth. I'm sure that quite a few former super models after giving birth, and going through life as they get older, do have a few stretch marks here and there, as well as gain some weight. That is inevitable for most.--
So where did I say it was uncommon? Especially when I said, "That is inevitable for most." Odd really... Very very odd...
...............................
A
reader, anonymous, writes (5 December 2006): As for the other Ms. Anon, to answer your questions:
++Thanks Martini++
You're welcome. 8]
++do you agree that most women are second best to their partners++
Do I agree that most women feel second best in the minds of their partners? I don't accurately know, because in the last decade, aside from giving advice and opinion here in DearCupid, and having a say in forums like IceRed, HongKong.com, and AsianAvenue, I have really only met about 300 or so females, and probably about 200 of them married. Of the women I have talked to, some of them have the mentality of Ms. Troll-Anon who's been attacking all of my points without actually reading my points and trying to understand any of it, and of course look at my words at face-value, but the majority of them allowed themselves to look at other perspectives that I have given them, or that they have found on their own elsewhere.
A lot of them don't feel second best, but some of them do feel that there will always be someone better suited, possibly more compatible for their man. I always tell them that if they think like that, then of course, there is always a possibility for better things. That is true in all aspects of life. However, a major difference between what can be better versus what we have now is the sentimenal emotions attached to that, as well as the experiences we've had together, and on top of that, what we know of each other.
For example sakes, despite my reassurance for my partner that she is the only one for me (at least at the moment), and that she is an important priority in my life, I bet you that unless she is ignorant of the world around her, she will feel one time or another, that I might be better suited for someone else. How would she come to this conclusion despite my love for her? Possibly because I am surrounded by physically beautiful women in my line of work. However, the flaw in her mental debate is that, beauty is just that - something external for me. Yes, I admit I choose someone who is physically appealing to me - not necessarily physically gorgeous in terms of how I need to think in my industry. However, her debate doesn't include mental and emotional connectivity. Sure, she may not be the most gorgeous girl in the world, but my girlfriend would include a combination of different things that I find her attractive and loveable.
If people base the purpose of a relationship solely on how beautiful a person physically may be, then people can say, "You deserve someone better than this guy who is so skinny." However, what about all his other qualities? Family man, strong internally, ambitious, dresses nicely, has a great smile, awesome sense of humor, loves to have fun, knows how to treat a woman right, fit, nerdy and handsome at the same time, etc, etc, etc...
You know what I mean?
So the fact that some women may feel second best, would be based a lot on this - on looks alone. Like I always say for threads in DC about worrying that he or she is not good enough for so and so, I always say, "Stop worrying about what could be, and continue the relationship with what you have now. He or she didn't choose the other people to be with. He or she chose you. Stop killing yourself in thinking you're an obstacle, and better yet, just go with the flow." Or something like that.
++and that if they had a choice they would choose a porn star type body????++
If women or men had a choice, would they choose to have a porn star type body? With differentiations in their own personal ideals, it's highly probable that they would choose to have a porn star type body, because generally speaking, a porn star type body is the epitomy of ultimate sexual desire. Through surgery or fitness, these porn stars refine their bodies to the point where they feel is the ultimate avatar of being beautiful - wearing anything will only complement and not solely complete them. They can be wearing a bikini, a blouse and skirt, they can be naked, they can be wearing pants and a sweater, etc, etc, and they would still look great. Where as many 'average' people need nice clothes to make themselves look better.
This is a mindframe that is unavoidable, because so long as human nature dictates what is good and what isn't, we can't change this aspect of ourselves naturally. Like let's use something out of the borders of beauty - say literature and poetry. Different reviewers will know from reading words, and meanings that Poem or Lit A is better than Poem or Lit B because of so and so. There is refinement in the words and the clarity in the meaning. Just like why is a Dodge Neon not seemed as refined as a McLaren F1? Because it took a lot of design and effort in creating the F1, where as the Neon is simply an economic car, where you can possibly rely on and save a lot on gas money. The McLaren F1 shows people why it is an exotic car, not because it costs so much, but because of the methods, the materials, and the engineering that goes into it.
No one in this world with a proper education want to be 5-5 at 300 pounds. Unless they benefit from it somehow. No one in this world with a proper education want to be 6-6 and weigh 100 pounds. It's unhealthy. Well what about the 'average' person who is 5-6 and weighs 130 pounds? Well, there's the most common spectrum of people in that range. It is the most acceptable ideal because most people fit that range.
++If you agree then why would any woman want to be with them knowing she is second choice++
Well, I don't agree wholely, like said before, but for those who feel that they are absolutely second best, then they have a choice to leave or stay. If it was I and I know that I am indeed definitely second choice based on all that I have said, then for sure, I will leave my partner and go for someone who feels that I am not second best, per se.
Honestly, Ms. Anon, people who are too willing to look at different angles like me shouldn't fall in love and have intimate relationships, because we are very few and very rare, and our thoughts and our words usually give people the common perspective that we are merely justifying ourselves.
[wink] I like to be the Devil's Advocate. It sparks willing minds for debate. 8]
...............................
A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (5 December 2006): Martini, I find it interesting that you seem to think that it uncommon to have problems with specifically stretch marks/loose skin after babies as it is VERY common, especially in smaller women..I know Im only 5 foot, very fit yet have excess skin. Check out the below link and you will see what pregnancy can do to some womens bodies...believe me its not as UNCOMMON as you may think...No amount of changes will fix this only surgery...If a woman is with a man who finds this horrid and glorifies porn models then what hope has she got short of going under the knife...even without any fat the stomach will hang over because the elastic collagen fibres are destroyed......there is as yet no cure and scientific test have shown creams dont workPerhaps you have never been a dad or been intimate with a woman whos body has undergone changes like this but please realize MOST average mums have some changes and some degree of thisIt is true however that models often dont suffer as severe a skin pouch as shown because (in my drs word) taller women have more space for the bub...but please be considerate to the fact that MILLIONS af women struggle with these after effects of having babies only to be asked by their husbands...why doesn't your body look like that young porn stars???http://www.hubbardplastic.com/listings.php?id=13cid=840i=3
...............................
A
reader, anonymous, writes (4 December 2006): [sigh] Are you the same person who was attacking my posts back in the other two threads? [sigh]
Okay, well I'm a sucker for not backing down arguments, especially ones like this, unless the other aunts and uncles vote that I should back down... Anyone? 8]
Point by point...
++when you say some of these models are beyond imaginable beauty do you mean they have stretch marsk and sags THAT NEARLY ALL women get when they have babies??????++
Getting stretch marks, having wrinkles, getting fat, chubby, etc are all possible results of having children. They are also possible results for having a lot of stress, imbalanced hormones when having a period, exercising without proper stretching, and so on and so forth. I'm sure that quite a few former super models after giving birth, and going through life as they get older, do have a few stretch marks here and there, as well as gain some weight. That is inevitable for most.
++How can you say you DONT glorify this look if you find that beauty...++
[very long and tired sigh] There is a very huge perspective of ignorance in your choice of words. I feel that you are simply unable to move out of your mindframe and look at it at the angle in which beauty is supposed to be. Either that, or what I have been saying all this time isn't clear enough. Which I might actually not be clear enough.
How can I say this... [ponders] It's like trying to explain to someone that creativity and talent cannot be taught, and that to see how something is advertised without first understanding the concept of design, is something that just doesn't work. Or for another example is like those who can read people very well, and someone else asks you how they can learn to read people, and you explain to them that it's not something that can be taught. It's a natural phenomena that just happens.
So in this scenerio, it's like I have all these concepts of what beauty is as a core object, and you come along and put one single aspect on beauty and how I can say I don't glorify it because of so and so aspects. But that's the thing, you fail to realize what beauty is in the first place.
In this case for beauty, glorifying something is when you worship the sole aspect of beauty. It is something that you do that signifies every motivation of your body and mentality to go for just beauty. To glorify beauty, a person would be putting down every other aspect of a person and solely chase after her for beauty alone. To glorify beauty, a person would only look at beauty as the sole purpose of justifying any sort of relationship.
None of my friends that have agreed on what they feel is a beautiful woman worships that as the sole idea, nor do they pursue relationships with women based solely on that aspect. On top of that, glorifying beauty would mean that a woman's intellect and wit and charm is not important. My gosh!
++IMO true beauty is in the body of the woman who brought your children into the world scars and all......++
I know where you going with this. I understand that you are trying to put moral factors and sentiment into what you think beauty is, but beauty in its rawest form is exactly that - beautiful.
Now, if I were to INCLUDE sentiment, fuzzy emotions, and all the other mental factors that associate my adoration and my love for my woman, then yes, of course, she would be THE MOST beautiful woman in my life. However, to look at things objectively, I cannot and will not put myself in the sole aspect of sentimental beauty. It's just not accurate.
++and if you are yet to meet that someone how will you react when her body changes????++
Wow, this is exactly like having your parents question your integrity, after everything you've gone through, after all that they know about what you have experienced, then after all that, they question whether you are honorable or not. Upon asking such a question, I would wonder whether they have read or heard or taken into mind and/or heart everything that I have shown them and told them about.
With this said, my words end here. It's like my grade 11 math teacher - Mr. Peters always say to his class, "If you cannot see it, then I cannot help you."
Fin.
...............................
A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (4 December 2006): when you say some of these models are beyond imaginable beauty do you mean they have stretch marsk and sags THAT NEARLY ALL women get when they have babies??????
Or are they young flawless, showing no signs of ever having had kids...
How can you say you DONT glorify this look if you find that beauty...
IMO true beauty is in the body of the woman who brought your children into the world scars and all......
and if you are yet to meet that someone how will you react when her body changes????
...............................
A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (4 December 2006): Thanks Mrtini, an intelligent argument...do you agree that most women are second best to their partners and that if they had a choice they would choice a porn star type body????
If you agree then why would any woman want to be with them knowing she is second choice
...............................
A
reader, anonymous, writes (4 December 2006): To Ms. Anon three posts down about the research on porn - well, aside from the details, as I mentioned in the forum, if the man or the woman take it as a higher priority to look at porn within a marriage rather than solve any problems in that marriage, then yes, there is a huge problem there. The man and the woman has to be willing to work things out for things to work in the first place - common sense of course.
The thing is though, porn can have a negative effect on a relationship between two people if not used in moderation. If both the man and the woman, or in current cases, a man and a man, or a woman and a woman enjoys pornography as a couple, then fine, whatever adds to your sex life. However, if it is only used by one person and used in a way that negatively effects the sex of lack of sex with the partner, then for sure, the porn should stop.
As far as second best, I say mostly, but not always. However, I'll save myself the sanity of just not debating that part. Ultimately, I do agree, just I rather take an approach from different sides as well, instead of attacking just the issue from one point of view.
...............................
A
reader, anonymous, writes (4 December 2006): To Ms. Anon below: Yeah, that is if he wasn't human. Are you kidding me? If he was a machine that you can program to think in a linear matter, then sure, he will for sure just think you're the most beautiful woman in the world through age and sickness. However, beauty in itself is in my standards not solely about physical attire. The thing is though, if it IS BASED solely on physical attire, then for sure I would say your words is as delusional as an Evangelist preaching that Bush is the almighty messenger of god.
Men AND women will always look at others. IT IS HUMAN NATURE. If that is not truthful, then there is no point for men and women to even try to groom themselves, or dress better, or try a different style, or drive a different car, or get a feel for a better looking home, or choose a better batch of tulips to give to the wife, or choose a better suited tie for the husband.
And I really hate this saying of yours: "Women need to wake up and smell the coffee...men glorify a look that cannot be maintained by any living woman who ages or has kids..."
First, what about women? You should see the article entry I wrote on my blog about that. Second, no one that I know and am friends with is glorifying a look that they think women should be like. What we see in magazines is not a fantasy that we think is the absolute foundation for any relationship. Beauty in itself does not continue a relationship. Have you thought that for any man who has at least a mind and style of his own, he won't simply choose a woman based on her looks? Have you ever thought that a man with his own mind and style would choose more than just her looks - say her mind, her wits, her intelligence, her wisdom, her interests, hobbies, femininity, the comfort he gets from her, and so on and so forth?
I think you should wake up and smell the coffee. Not all men as not all women glorify a model type the way you think all men (and all women) do. I for one is in the creative industry. Models as men and women alike pass me by every now and then. Yes a lot of them are gorgeous beyond mere imagination, but my mind and my tastes are so much more refined than just mere physical attire that I won't actually take that concept back home to my wife or my gf. It just isn't.
...............................
A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (3 December 2006): If he really thought no woman was a beautiful as you he wouldnt even BOTHER looking at others.....
Women need to wake up and smell the coffee...men glorify a look that cannot be maintained by any living woman who ages or has kids...
...............................
A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (3 December 2006): 'Being bombarded with visions of socially powerful men doesn't make me feel that my husband is any less physically attractive. It doesn't change my perception of him either.'
The research wasnt about that...it was purely about the impact of porn on a marriage....
It seems a hell of a lot less common for women to spend time and money on magazines that feature men with more money than their husbands than it is for husbands to spend time and money lusting after model like women and porn.....
Why is that???IMO.....men are comparing and wishing that their partners looked like that....If any husband had the opportuntyto keep his wife the same except make her look like a porn star I KNOW WHAT NEARLY EVERY MAN would choose...
Face it lades...if your mans using porn its a clear sign your second best in his eyes...at least in the looks department...
...............................
A
reader, anonymous, writes (2 December 2006): ++Men rate themselves as being less in love with their partner after looking at Playboy centrefolds than they did before seeing the pictures of beautiful women++
I disagree. To me, it's like looking at an exotic car magazine. They're gorgeous, physially refined and very feminine, but they're missing in one very important thing - emotion. Can't fall in love with paper you know? 8]
Sure, I admit, when I look at a centerfold, I'm thinking, "Wow, she looks so great" then possibly proceed to think some naughty thoughts. However, I will never compare the woman in the picture with my gf/wife. My gf/wife is someone I chose to be with and there is a good reason that I chose her. There are many contributing factors I chose her.
As far as possiblities goes, yes there are always more possibilities - opportunities if you will. However, that's exactly like that story of the paddy field and corn field:
---
A student asked a teacher, "What is love?" The teacher said, "In order to answer your question, go to the paddy field and choose the biggest paddy and come back.
But the rule is: you can go through them only once and cannot turn back to pick one." The student went to the field, and going through the first row, he saw one big paddy, but he wondered ....may be there is a bigger one later.
Then he saw a bigger one... but he thought may be there is an even bigger one waiting for him. Later, when he finished more than half of the paddy field, he started to realize that the paddies were not as big as the previous ones he saw. He knew he had missed the biggest one and he regretted it!!!!
So, he went back to the teacher empty handed. The teacher told him, "This is love-You keep looking for a better one, but later you realize that you have already missed the best person."
"What is marriage then?" the student asked. The teacher replied, "In order to answer your question, go to the corn field and choose the biggest cob of corn and come back.
But the rule is: you can go through them only once and cannot turn back to pick one." The student went to the corn field and this time he was careful not to repeat his previous mistake. When he reached the middle of the field, he picked one medium sized cob of corn that he felt was satisfactory and came back to the teacher.
The teacher told him, "This time you brought back a cob of corn. You looked for one that was just nice, and you had faith and believed this was the best one you could get.... this is marriage."
---
It's all about balance, weighing in on what is, what have been, what you're capable of, and what can be done about it, amongst others. 8]
...............................
|
