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female
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anonymous
writes: I just read a post about a woman who was upset her partner is going to a strip show...I was appalled to see the advice that'''oh you should trust him' 'all men do it etc'To me this womens feelings are completely justified and she is demonstrating that she has self resepct when she feels this behaviour is unacceptable...Whats wrong with women saying that we will not accept this rubbish in our relationships? I agree we cant control another and ranting and raving does nothing but women we owe it to ourselves to stand up and say that we and all women deserve more respect than our partners out leering over other naked women...How degrading to us that we share our bodies with them and then they go checking out others....Men are capable of remaining faithful in mind and body if they want to...If women start saying ' porn is not good enough, strip shows are not ood enough, affairs are not good enough' then the men who participate in these degrading activities will be the single ones (or with women who do care)We cant control others but we can control what is part of our lives and we are the ones who teach paople how to treat us
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reader, anonymous, writes (29 March 2011): I totally agree with you. An ex of mine went to a strip club and I found out 9 months later that he had a sexual encounter with the stripper who danced for him in a hotel room above the strip club. Lap dances are very very close. So if you aren't comfortable with it, fight for your rights and don't let anyone tell you that you are being unreasonable in your expression of discomfort.What HE chooses to do, however, is not up to you. But if he does it, you don't have to stay in the relationship nor do you have to feel guilty if you choose to leave the relationship. I realize that if a man wants to take advantage of his male privilege like that, then it can go two ways. Many men will feel fine with getting a lap dance but the thought of their partner dancing nude on a strange man's lap horrifies them. To them it's not the same thing. Sometimes maybe what they need is a lesson. It may end your relationship but I think sometimes the only way for some people to wake up to reality is to get a dose of their own medicine.
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male
reader, Daveeeeeee  +, writes (21 February 2010):
 Excellent informed and logical posts Miamine..you addressed many other areas I had not considered .
Good input !
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female
reader, Miamine  +, writes (11 February 2010):
 I find it funny, that there are so many quotes that give statistical figures which point to problems with pornography. The reason why I find this so funny, is in many people who appear in pornography are unwilling to answer questions about their jobs. Proper research always points out that the proper population samples are hard to get. If you are working in pornography, why would you answer questions and identify yourself.
I have read many highly regarded research papers that have been peer reviewed, I have also read government reports from all over the world. These figures that have been quoted here show none of the hesitancy that is usually involved. Instead the are quoted as if they are fact, when in fact, research arround people working in the sex industry is ALWAYS incomplete, and biased towards who you can actually get to answer your questions. Most of the statistics given here would not stand up under intellectual analysis.
"Porn is a leading cause in the breakdown of marriages".. a statement given. Where is the evidence please, what country are you looking at, where, how and when was this information gathered. A statement that is not backed up with anything. What about finance, or lack of sex, adultery? Are you are telling me that people it's pornography and not any of these that put marriages under stress? And if porn is the leading reason, is this because couples like porn too much or too little.. this statement is nonsense.
"Are you aware of how many porn stars were sexually abused as children?" No please tell us, and also please tell us how many secretaries, school teachers, shop workers were abused as a child....
Are you aware of how many porn stars use drugs and alcohol so they can "relax" and just do their job?.. No please tell us, and also please tell us how many actors, doctors, lawyers, bankers and singers need to use alcohol and drugs to relax, so they can continue to get up everyday and do their job.
As far as I know, child abuse, drug abuse and alcohol abuse in prevalent in many societies, and will be found at levels of society and in many professions... Again, statements only, but where is the evidence for what you say.
It's better to stick to how you feel about pornography, rather than trying to prove with no evidence and bad statistics some type of fact.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (11 February 2010):
mmmm... "We cant control others but we can control what is part of our lives...."
Sounds like you want to control women to me. You have a problem with these things, I don't. Why should I spoil my relationship with a guy, to stand up for women who I think are wrong anyway.
"but women we owe it to ourselves to stand up and say that we and all women deserve more respect than our partners out leering over other naked women"....
Sorry, can't join you with this, because I enjoy looking at naked men, and my partners have no problem with this. For some reason I don't find nudity or sex a problem, and I find that men actually have tons of respect for me, and say I'm easy to get along with.
"she is demonstrating that she has self resepct when she feels this behaviour is unacceptable"..
Dose this mean that if I have no problem with the sex professions and I don't show jealousy, that I have no respect for myself. according to your values... mmmmm.. interesting.
I have ton's of respect for myself, I pity women who think they can control other people. I don't understand why they stay and complain, instead of saying, "I don't think I like this, you won't stop, I think I'll leave this relationship now."
YOU CAN'T CHANGE PEOPLE, YOU CAN ONLY CHANGE YOURSELF.... and please remember, every woman is different, and your speaking for yourself, but not for me...
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reader, Daveeeeeee +, writes (11 February 2010):
I think you are actually trying to fight nature , yes its no problem you could express your opinion that you dont approve , but a male attending exoctic dance club is not actually cheating .
In the majority of the world ( in numbers ) men have more than one wife , or at least accepted Gek ( g/f) , men rerally need multiple partners . Most sneak around the subject doing all the things we have discussed .
If he is merely watching Porn , attending exotic dance clubs , I would agrue the male is doing his very best to remain faithful , women should be happy about this an encourage him .
The bottom line is a man is going to look at a young lady of child bearing age who is in good shape , and he will want to have Sex with her , thats how it is . He may not for any number of reasons , not the least being the rejection of his advances , but he will still want that girl at age 55 , if he is healthy . The female may only be 22 years , yet they can produce a child together which is the whole basis of attraction .
The woman at age 53 , may well be going though menopause , and could not reproduce . The woman is also more likely NOT to be in good shape at this point , particularly if she has been though child birth and not worked hard physically afterwards .
You are fighting the natural instincts of a Male , Will all stray ? ..no , they wont , but only because of various levels of fear ...
Attending Exoctic dance etc , masy however enable him to control natural urges .
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reader, anonymous, writes (22 September 2006): First off not all men are the same. If you didnt mean that then sorry but thats the feeling I'm getting here.
I agree to a certain degree. I dont disagree with men going if they are in a relationship and their partner doesnt give a damn, doesnt give a damn 100% mind. The women choose to strip, the men choose to go, free country. However if the women object then yes I think the man should not go due to the sexual nature of these things. Sort of on par with flirting. If you object to this kind of sexual veiwing like a strip show or the sexual enuendo of flirting with others(that goes for both sexes) then your partner shouldn't be so hurtful as to do it anyway.
Speaking from the other side of the fence my girlfriend went to a strip show. Before hand I asked her not to touch what she shouldnt , but I didnt have a go. She went totally blank. Didnt even care enough to reassure me, especially as I wasnt hostile. So yeah I can get why women get pissed off about it. You feel like crap if your partner may get some pleasure from it. In the end if the bloke doesnt respect the women she should leave him. However this goes for both sides too.
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reader, anonymous, writes (8 September 2006): No, I don't think I ever said such a thing...if not, I have done my best to try and make someone see what the other is proposing.
I have stated that if you are uncomfortable with someone; then say so. Men and a women who love their partner would not wish to bring harm to the person they love, respect, admire, cherish...; they will want to make them happy and so when they request something and the other says " I don't know if I am comfortable with that" should be sufficient. At least asking is a way of learning and growing together.
More often than not; if you are with someone you love and care about-you don't see them as someone to abuse and debase and will do your best to make sure that when you suggest some "experimentation" that what you are suggesting doesn't offend or scare your partner.
That is when mutual respect can be best served.
Sometimes you are required to sacrifice alot in any relationship.
I don't think people understand what it is to make sacrifices...it's not just material/money based...it's time based, comfort zone based (now and again...if it is a frequent request...it becomes one sided), emotional sacrifices.
In no way should your partner ask you to sacrifice your morals or standards; they should encourage and support you on those and in all things.
Again, communication is very important. Listening and not re-acting, and digesting it and then making a decision when the anger or hurt as subsided is best.
Patience, forgiveness, consideration are then to be practiced when you meet up with a no response. To be understanding of your partners needs means to also respect such a response.
I don't think too many people remember these aspects of an adult relationship; too many still get hung up on ME based decisions/desires and forget the WE aspect.
Porn in the majority of such cases are not a WE decision.
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reader, anonymous, writes (8 September 2006): I agree Male Anon...I do believe it is mutual respect, giving and loving and that each person has to be able and willing to give their 100% at all times.
I have, time and again, stated that if you want your marriage dynamic or relationship dynamic to change; then you must take charge and start changing yourself.
More often than not; if we are willing to go the extra mile and keep on giving, loving-to be supportive at all times...a marriage/relationship can survive.
I liked what you had to say; it was refreshing and uplifting to hear that there is a man on here who can be humble, sincere, honest, open, loving, responsible, and caring- a man in the right sense. You are to be commended as I feel that the world is sorely missing such men like you; such a valiant soul.
I like how you can be fair and accountable for yourself.
Thank you for your post.
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reader, anonymous, writes (8 September 2006): Wendyg, I'm with you entirely. Such men get hooked by the convenient little thrill of porn, but then end up caught in a web of their own making that gradually drains away the pleasure even as they seek it. One of the worst things about porn is the progressive desensitization to sexual stimuli, a.k.a, "porn creep." Guys become blazé about seeing the woman that used to rock their world. It's stupid and self-defeating. Unfortunately, men get to a place where they realize all that, and yet still can't stop. At that point it becomes a question of trying to get help for them, or just writing them off as "stupid and lazy".Malyce (lovely name, by the way): I've already proposed the alternative to the "quid pro quo" thing I've been complaining about, namely, that "men and women would both freely give the things we need from each other." What I'm proposing is simple generosity rather than, "You need to do this before I can offer this." I love and value my wife and lift her up and say and demonstrate how dear she is to me. I love talking with her, or just being with her doing nothing. I don't do all that to get sex, I do it because I love her. Conversely, she makes me feel important and desired, like some sort of rock star, which I'm not. But that denial means nothing to her. She makes me feel like I'm her rock star and that she'd (in a manner of speaking) remove her panties and throw 'em on stage while she falls into a swoon over me. When the conditions are right, we ometimes just devour one another in a frenzy of love and lust--like teenagers, only now we know what we're doing.Neither of us are perfect, of course. But the point is that, for the most part, it's based on mutual generosity, grace, unconditional love. Now, I do understand very well that, as you point out, women "need to feel valued and loved before sex can occur." Yet, I also understand that men, by contrast, need sexual love in order to feel valued and loved. So we have a problem here, don't we? It's a stand off. --Unless the relationship is based on mutual generosity, where both partners take independent initiative to get the love flowing.I think you'd probably agree that this would be a good thing. Where I get into trouble is in my sense that many women have no trouble holding men "acountable" when it comes to sex, whereas little thought is given to their own part. You said it yourself, women "need to feel valued and loved before sex can occur would mean to me that you know this and therefore with knowledge comes responsibility and accountablity." Agreed. But do you know what men need? Are you just as accountable to that as you think men should be to women's needs?Here's another, "Well, not all women think giving a man oral sex is 'appropriate' and it is up to her to decide what makes her comfortable." It's up to her to decide. That pretty much says it all, doesn't it? One hopes that in areas of disagreement, there's room for negotiation. But not here. No, she's the gatekeeper when it comes to sex. The man stands on the outside and submits his petition. Sometimes it's granted, sometimes its denied. As a consequence, men routinely speak of sex in terms of "getting lucky". It's largely up to chance or caprice. Maybe they can improve their chances by performing well. And in that way they are held "acountable", in your words. Men are and should be accountable, but it would sure be nice for their women to just be generous once in a while. And it would be nice for men to offer all their emotional closeness and faithfulness not because they're being held "acountable", but because they want to be generous to their lover. Is this not a better basis for a relationship?But you say, "Men put unrealistic expectations on women when it comes to sex." Again, the woman decides what is "unrealistic" or not. Should the men decides instead? Not necessarily. But why does the decision always have to default to the one who wants to do the least? Where's the generosity in that?Hey, if there's things a person just can't do, don't do them. I get that. What I object to is the fact that a man is considered a poor lover when there are things he won't do to please his wife, whereas for the woman her more modest self-expectations are regarded as the standard and she is immune to challenge about them.None of us are immune to challenge. We can all be more generous lovers. With a little discipline, men can throw away their porn and enjoy an awesome love life with a real woman.
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reader, Wendyg +, writes (8 September 2006):
 What about those woman mr male anon, that are up for sex 24/7 no matter what the weather, no matter what chores have been done or need to be done, are just available for sex and enjoy a varied sex life with their partners, but get refused because a number of reasons, like im tired, im hot, dont feel like it, etc etc... when in fact the reason they dont want to is because they have been looking at porn and jacked off and got there own self off.. they start out as it all being a bit of fun, but then turns into something cant control.. How can it be justified that a man would rather look at the pc screen or the tv screen mag whatever of a naked woman and would rather jack off to that that than be with a wholesome up for girlfriend whom they claim to love ?? It doesnt nescessarily bother me if my man uses porn or not, im not either fore or against, but many are just using it in place of a loving intimate relationship and for want of a better word are just downright lazy... far far easier to get off on your own than to go to any effort at all for the sake of your intimate relations with your woman isnt it!
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reader, anonymous, writes (8 September 2006): Your arguement that men only have access if a service is done is very cold and does in fact attack women's natures and statements like that are what have by back up.
If you have such a clear understadning that women as a whole, need the mood to be set, that they need to feel valued and loved before sex can occur would mean to me that you know this and therefore with knowledge comes responsibility and accountablity- why argue that it is us women? It really is that most men don't get this or don't care to.
And if that is the REALITY of a man's world; then this only re-instates my arguement that men get caught up in the world of porn for selfish reasons and a woman who can see her man as selfish is repugnant and offensive as that is not the man she married and she would like him back; as well as further re-instates that men put unrealistic expectations on women when it comes to sex.
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reader, anonymous, writes (8 September 2006): I have no problem when people can own up to what they say and back it up.
Part of this argument is that men and women choose to be in a relationship where they are mistreated and for reasons that relate to their childhood and what was taught/modeled there. Women stay as to them; they do in fact love their man and hope for him to begin to understand and listen to what she is saying and make that inference that porn is destroying their intamacy and their relationship and will stop their porn habit/addiction.
Accountability and responsibility lies with the individual, agreed.
Most men lie and conceal the fact they view porn and have viewed it or they downplay the number of times they engage in porn viewing and masterbating which is still lying to a woman and that is but one aspect as to why women are hurt by men's porn viewing habits. That they can lie to their partner.
A good, strong, healthy, adult relationship SHOULD be built on a foundation of trust.
Most women who are told that their man watches it "ocacasionally" believe it is maybe once every few months and not as bad and therefore I should be okay with it are surprised when their boyfriends/husbands rely on porn to get themselves off instead of turning to a human, a body, a woman, their lover to be apart of that special act is very upsetting and it leaves them feeling confused and hurt.
Jerking off to porn does in fact isolate a woman and can constitute as abandonment as the BF or Husband is no longer emotionally present for his woman and being a woman and being designed more "feeling" oriented; this is very painful to accept and/or endure.
So sensitivity is a part of having compassion for your partner and loving your partner should be PARAMOUNT as that is part of being in love; considering your partners needs and willing to act on meeting them. And yes it is expected that the woman do so for her man as that is what love is all about-the mutual aspect.
No one, man or woman, likes to be abandoned. That whole emotional detachment that comes with men who view porn and masterbate to it is unhealthy to himself and to the woman he is with.
Porn is a leading cause in the breakdown of marriages and does in fact tear families apart. It isn't good if this is what it can do. It isn't right if the woman in the relationship can say that her man watching and masterbating to porn is far from mutual as it excludes her; she isn't the one responsible for him having those feelings and urges and it is her role, her responsibility and he isn't even allowing her to fulfill his needs...see....women like that whole fulfilling the needs but this comes across as whining and complaining on no real basis other than we are insecure creatures with no thought process.
Why can't this inference be made by the men then if we, as women, are so "clueless"?
Have you even been listening? I don't mean reading, but listening to what these women have to say?
Can you not see why they hurt and why the are bewildered by it as the growing message in society is PORN IS ACCEPTABLE and NORMAL and EVERYONE should like it. Porn is not acceptable as it has been proven in tests that it is very determental to the man and woman as I have eariler indicated in my posts on this subject.
Some listening on this topic is needed.
Your response still comes across as bitiing in that women whine and complain and yet, they should be responsible for pleasing their man. Well, not all women think giving a man oral sex is "appropriate" and it is up to her to decide what makes her comfortable. Sex is an intamacy that is to join two and instill a deeper bond of love and trust in one another. It is a power that needs respect. If more and woman could understand this and respect this power; there would not be discussions such as this.
The feelings that sex instills in an individual should be saved for between a man and woman.
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reader, anonymous, writes (8 September 2006): I just wanted to say I thought the last answer was well argued and articulately put. I think you have a very good perspective on the differences between the two sexes and what is required from them both to have a successful, healthy and sustaining relationship.
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reader, anonymous, writes (8 September 2006): I said the charge of "selfishness" cuts both ways. Own up to your part. That's what I ask. I agree with the evaluation of porn as lame and morally objectionable. But I'm also suspicious of women's righteous indignation about it. It comes a little too cheaply since it's not even a temptation for most women, whereas it certainly is for nearly all men.
As for being "patronizing" and "condescending" toward women... Come on! Men hear that boilerplate pretty much every time they challenge a woman's point of view. It'd be patronizing to cede the issue out of consideration for your daintiness. Instead, I'm treating you as an equal--by disagreeing with and challenging you.
Last, the bit about being bitter toward women... Well, I might admit to a momentary lapse when I wrote what I did. I was flat wrong when I wrote that women "tend to offer little or no grace" in bedroom matters. I apologize. It was just off.
But you made a few generalizations about me based on precious few sentences. Shouldn't you take the same care with your comments as you require of mine?
For the record, I was never repeatedly hurt by women. I do know more than a few men who get treated like doormats by their wives. It's not uncommon. But most of what I wrote comes from advice that women gave about how their men should go about getting them "in the mood". I actually left out one frequently mentioned tidbit about how a man shouldn't initiate romance until he's helped with the chores.
Yes, I'll grant that it's good for guys to do their part. But what message does it send to him that his access to love and sex hinges on things like that? The message that comes through, whether intended or not, is that sex is offered only when service is rendered.
Porn is an instant fix that reaffirms male potency and gives a tranquillizing, temporary relief of stress, yet without requiring any "other-directed relational energy." Therefore, for men who are in relationships where sex comes at an inordinately high cost, or is granted only sporadically, or is granted only on the basis of quid pro quos, the attraction of porn is gonna be that much higher. Combined with this is the fact that men are sometimes lazy, lustful, impatient, passive and prone to escapism when life gets them down. Viola! Porn.
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reader, anonymous, writes (8 September 2006): Wow...what a nasty and lowly view of women you have. I am offended to be generalized in such an ugly fashion. Your bitterness made it hard for me to stomach.
Too bad that you were hurt repeatedly by women to start believing in that; although educated in usage and structure of the English langauge-I have to say that generalizing and painting women as low in thought process as our feelings cloud our better judgement *rollseyes* and that we therefore take delight in being sadistic and calculating creatures shows your patronizing and condenscending take on women as a whole.
Maybe that is the women you date and have been intimate with and how unfortunate for you; but please do be more careful in the future with your comments.
Thanks.
I have to wonder about a man who can put the WHOLE responsibilty of any disatisfaction in the bedroom or in life on a woman.
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reader, anonymous, writes (6 September 2006): The illusion of porn is that the attractive woman in the picture wants to be sexy for you, to turn you on and get you off. The timing and the pace at which this happens is utterly up to the man who controls the means to display the images. A man is an instant rock star who is, for once, talented enough, rich enough, smooth enough, and handsome enough to make this illusory woman gush with desire to be sexy to him.In contrast to that, what is a man's experience with a real woman. A man must continually pass tests imposed by women in order to gain their sexual attention. If he is married, he must first (1) meet her need for emotional security, (2) he must relieve her stress and create an uninterrupted zone of privacy and relaxation--and often he must do this without making it seem like he's setting the stage for sex, for this puts pressure on her which is stressful to her (3) he must flatter her out of an often well-entrenched negative body image, (4) he must repair any lingering discontent with the relationship that may have arisen from any period of its history (5) he must find a way to engage her erotic imagination while being very careful not to stumble into subject matter that's a hidden turnoff, (6) when he begins to touch her, he must do so in a way that avoids her awareness that he is initiating actual erotic contact, since anything direct tends to be off-putting to her, (7) he must touch her in the optimum order at the optium pace but in a way that's different from previous times and in a way that will seem to her uncontrived and spontaneous. Usually by this point, things are underway and she may even respond and reciprocate. The point is, it's all based on performance. Women tend to offer little or no "grace" in the real world. In the sexual marketplace, they are the choosy consumers, and men are the lobbyists groveling for their highly discerning and sometimes scarce attentions. So yes, porn is an easy copout of self-indulgent self-gratification. It is inherently selfish. Moreover, what it offers is entirely illusory and ends up causing even more dissatisfaction with the real world. Many men report feelings of self contempt from porn. But women find it supsiciously easy to object to it--and not necessarily because it hurts their man's soul, but because it diminishes their considerable sexual and emotional leverage in the relationship. "Shame on my man for finding a way to get get out of the relational-emotional work I need out of him". The charge of selfishness cuts both ways.Ideally, men and women would both freely give the things we need from each other.
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reader, anonymous, writes (5 September 2006): She had already compromised and it did not "fix" anything or make any pain go away. She said she did her best but she still believes what she does.
It is true; in the end you choose to stay and be unhappy as he isn't willing to change and see you side or you leave and have some inner peace.
Have you and Hubby gone to marriage counselling? His reliance on porn needs to be addressed. It just sounds like he is too caught up in porn to be anything for you Sweetie.
*hugs*
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male
reader, Yos  +, writes (5 September 2006):
 I have read Pornified too. It's an eye-opening book. I'd recommend it as a present to any man you want to wean off porn.
I think that as a man the key to stopping porn is to understand the damage it is doing to you. Not to your partner or your relationship, but to YOU. When as a man you realize that porn is damaging your own sexuality and sexual functioning, it really makes you want to stop it. And you need that motivation because it is so addictive. No man wants to be sexually damaged: the realization of what porn is doing to you can shock you out of the self-constructed and societal lies that we use to avoid seeing the truth.
I believe that at some point we'll see porn like we see cigarettes now. Addictive, damaging and something we need to get rid of.
I'm speaking from personal experience. I have experienced sexual disfunction due to porn, especially along the lines of desensitization. It took some shock treatment (Pornified being part of it) for me to get motivated enough to stop.
The good news is that the negative effects of porn do fade. Over time, as the images in your mind fade as the memory of them fades, their negative effects lessen. I don't think you ever erase all of it, but you can remove a lot of it. What you can't remove is the damage it did to former relationships and to the girls expected to behave like porn stars by their porn-saturated boyfriends.
What makes me truly sad, is the effect of what infinite quantities of hardcore porn (ie the internet) is doing to the minds of 8 to 15 year olds. I shudder to think what it must be like for a 15 year old girl today who gets together with her first boyfriend to find his mind is full of images of double-anals, gagging, ass-to-mouth and a commentary of 'you slut you whore'. The stuff that is the staple of mainstream porn on the internet now. The stuff he's been masturbating to for the last few years. A bit of french kissing and fumbling under the sheets just isn't going to cut it. The only way I can describe that is 'totally fucked up'. It really saddens me.
As the teenage boy said to Naomi Wolf in her excellent essay 'The Porn Myth':
“Things are always a little tense and uncomfortable when you just start seeing someone,” he said. “I prefer to have sex right away just to get it over with. You know it’s going to happen anyway, and it gets rid of the tension.”
“Isn’t the tension kind of fun?” I asked. “Doesn’t that also get rid of the mystery?”
“Mystery?” He looked at me blankly. And then, without hesitating, he replied: “I don’t know what you’re talking about. Sex has no mystery.”
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reader, anonymous, writes (5 September 2006): Hold On. Are you aware of how many porn stars were sexually abused as children? Are you aware of how many porn stars use drugs and alcohol so they can "relax" and just do their job?
Some have even tried to quit the porn industry but become dependent on the money and the sex/attention.
Alot of them claim that they would not do it again if they had the choice as they regret it.
And I agree Yos and I still recommend Pamela Paul's Book "Pornified".
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male
reader, Yos +, writes (5 September 2006):
I don't see porn viewing as related to 'difference in sex drive'.
My experience has been that when a couple is in touch with each other, then sex happens just fine. When a couple is not relating well, then one or the other (or both) start to experience sexual dissatisfaction. When someone says 'we have a difference in sex drive' what they really mean is that one or the other person doesn't want to have sex. That is a sign of a relationship on the rocks, not a difference in sex drive.
One of the problems with porn is that it sets this cycle off in men. Masturbating to porn not only reduces intimacy / connection, it also reduces a mans sexual desire for his partner, as well as distorting expectations and sexual scripts. It's basically a great way to mess up a good sex life, and an even better way to take a fragile sex life and destroy it.
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reader, anonymous, writes (5 September 2006): sorry I should add that I spoke to the counselor about these feelings and contrary to what many say , he said that a women with HEALTHY self esteem would see porn this way because it is disrespectful to women in general. so please dont assume I have bad self esteem. I know my true worth and it is , I believe more than a woman who needs to accept unacceptable behaviour from her partner such as contributing to an industry that I believe is filthy, degrading to women and contributres to the rape and abuse of women and girls around the world
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (5 September 2006): Ariel thanks for your response...and sorry mine was a bit heated I have been having a very hard time of this,,,,actually I have the higher sex drive of the two of us and we have a very spicy sex life...That said I totally disagree that shared porn is good for a couple. I have tried this with my husband before (in an effort to try and accept it) I cannot and will not accept this crap. I dont believe that these 'actors come from an emotional place where they make informed consent. The statistic on women in porn are devestating (80% sexually abused as kids) hpw does this make them consenting in the true sense of the word. Its a different story for the men though. The women are always represented by a certain look that is not true to how real women look or behve sexually. Its all about men being gratified and most of the men in porn are totally gross. This is NOT helpful to my relationship. it makes me feel sick, disrespected, sad and turned off...how can this possibly be good for our sex life???
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (5 September 2006): ariel yes we have discussed it and he says he just likes to look at tother women naked. Nothing to do with fantasies as we have a very active sex life and explore BOTH of our fantasies. So basically for him its just about the variety...and regardless of whether you call this 'moral high ground ' I simply am not interested in being married to a man who wants to look at a variety of women. So basically its a matter of either I sacrifice my happiness and the opportunity to meet a man who is happy having the experience of one naked woman (and yes I believe their out there)or I live miserably with a man who cant be visully .
faithful to me...
In relation to the counseling the counsellor basically said that men using porn do it to avoid intimacy with their partners and to build their self esteem. This was the breakthrough still doesnt stop him doing it does it. The counselor encouraged me NOT to compromise on this issue as I feel strongly about it and it is a matter of respect. If his fantasy is a variety of naked women then this is clearly incompatible with a visually faithful marriage. something that I haveevry right to expect. How dare ypu even suggest I should accept such intolerable behaviour. You clearly have little self respect or respect for your fellow woman...sorry but your post p;;;;;;d me off
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male
reader, Wild Thaing  +, writes (3 September 2006):
 Hi Anon responder:
I definitely do not recommend you just accept a behaviour that is so offensive to you. It would be like accepting that your husband is an alcoholic, drug abuser, gambling addict, and so on, and denying there is a problem at all!
I see that he agreed to counselling, which is one of the options I would have recommended. He did not respond in the way you would have hoped, and furthermore it sounds like you caught him again, which means that he still denies that he has an addiction.
Does his habit have a negative effect on the children? Effects can also come indirectly when you project your own negative feelings about this problem onto your children (I'm not saying you are though).
If his habit is having spillover effects on the rest of the family then one option you have is to confront him with evidence of the peripheral damage his habit is causing to his family. If he denies it and starts to deflect responsibility, then you will have more difficult choices to make.
We are here to help you think through your options. I commend you for continuing to come here for other perspectives. Good luck and take care.
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female
reader, cici +, writes (3 September 2006):
well all i can tell you is that some girls feel inscure and when a girls boyfriend is lookin at girls like paris hilton, it makes them feel that paris is the live in girlfriend and they are just the other weomen and so they get rid of this problem the competion so it makes them feel good about themselves again evn though from time to time girls have there fantys about brad pitt.it just a sex thing.
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (3 September 2006): Why isn't counseling an option? Sounds like he has a porn addiction.
In the book I have by Pamela Paul titled "Pornified~How Pornography Is Transforming Our Lives, OUr Relationships, And Our Families"
It talks of how most men will get defensive and ugly when they are challenged on their porn viewing habits. The abuse follows with statments like "what is your f#cking problem?" "why are you so uptight?" "I'm a man and you wouldn't know how to please me if you tried."
It talks about the one real reason men view porn: to get off.
It talks about how men soon become desensitized to porn and need to spend more time online as well as they develop difficulty ejaculating and will rely on masterbating. No real woman can satisfy them at this point.
It talks of how so many men like the fantasy of this porn star likes me for me; that she isn't paid to do this-she actually likes this.
It talks of how countless men begin to pick apart their partner's body and their sexual appetite, prowless and would rather sit for hours on the computer in their fantasy world with their fantasy women.
It is the growing, leading cause for marital dischord which also contributes to the high divorce rates.
It talks of how children exposed to porn at an early age will begin to "experiment" with other children of all ages. There is a report in Canada where two 12 year old boys and one 13 year old girl developed a game of how many other children they can entice into touching and petting. When the children were caught and questioned where they learned this? Internet pop ups and images as well as feed streams.
This is a growing disease and it has many determental consequences. That is the REALITY of porn.
Pornography is mainly about male gratification and therefore teaches men to become more selfish and self involved and they will begin to ignore their partners needs for the sake of "getting off".
This indicates it is far from healthy.
It has the power to enslave and addict many people.
Many porn addicts relate it to a "rush", "high", "thrilled","excited", "obsessed". Some men call porn "mind altering". Most men who think about porn or building up to watching porn will experience a "rush"
The process of porn addicts...Getting off on porn-hunt,chase, orgasm, relief, getting off...
Most porn addicts will stuggle with alcohol, gambling, and drugs as well.
One man states "Look, they tell him, ti's nautral for a guy to look at porn, especially when he is maried. He needs variety. They'll say a wife isn't enough."
"That's a bunch of crap. Men are supposed to be strong and porn is just a self esteem weakness. Porn is there to make men feel like men, and women are there to please us. Porn helps men justify all the other things men want to be believe about themselves." ~page223, paragraph 2
Most men begin to like the idea of not having to worry about attachments. Men like pornography for escape. Consistant porn viewing take an emotional toll on the viewer which then will leave them feeling empty and lonely.
A sad world and a way of life if you ask me.
Get some counseling for you both.
Good Luck.
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (3 September 2006): hi again wild thaing, i have tried talking to him, we even went to counseling over this issue for a year...he stopped for a while but back to it again.
I guess my only other option would be to accept it but this is absolutely NOT something I feel I could do or even want to do...it is just so incredibly insulting to me and all women IMO. I have not problem with others who want to use it, thats their business but its not something that I want any part of and I dont want a partner who does either...so I guess Im really stuck. Yes either way the kids will be effected, leave and they get hurt, stay and they have a miserable mother...
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male
reader, Wild Thaing +, writes (2 September 2006):
Anon responder who is married with kids, I am sorry to hear that your husband is lying to you about his behaviour. This being said, my answer to you would be totally different from what I posted earlier, mostly because children are involved.
I don't think moving out and starting divorce proceedings should be the first resort in your case. However you do have to evaluate the options open to you and the suffering each option will inflict upon your children. And make no mistake - every option will cause your children to suffer. You will hopefully choose the one that minimizes the damage.
Beside the option you are contemplating, what others would be available to you? I have a few in mind but I'd like to hear from you first.
By the way, are you the poster of the question?
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (2 September 2006): Interesting Wild Thaing, So in my case I am married and have kids, my h tells me he wont watch porn as he knows its offensive to me both as his partner and as a woman...although he says he will stop I have found him to have been lying on many occasions...
I really think perhaps I should take the kids, move out and get a good lawyer...any ideas on whether this would be a good idea.
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reader, anonymous, writes (2 September 2006): What woman doesn't dream of a man who is willing to be all that she needs and who will do his best to fulfill her needs and wants?
A man in love is willing to give his all to make his woman happy.
That's the bottom line. Just like men expect us to be all they need in the bedroom and out of it.
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male
reader, Wild Thaing +, writes (2 September 2006):
My Gawd, should I bring some cheese to add to the whine?
Everything I say from this point assumes that a) you are not married and b) there are no kids in your relationship. I would have completely different answers for those other situations.
Simple question: Why stay with a man (or woman) if that person chooses to engage in behaviour that is so offensive to you?
I suppose some of you think you can "persuade" the person to stop the offensive behaviour, but at what cost? Are you so bereft of companionship (or self-esteem) that you would cling to the hope of changing someone?
If I were single I would dump a partner if she showed disrespect for my feelings by engaging in behaviour that I told her is offensive to me, be it watching porn, attending racist rallies, relentless male-bashing, and so on. Life is too short!
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male
reader, maxsteel86 +, writes (1 September 2006):
 I totally agree with the anonymous poster(s). Well put there!
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (1 September 2006): I agree competely. We CAN control who we allow in our lives and more importantly the values and priorities in our lives. I DO NOT allow porn or any of that other shallow nonsense in my relationship or more accurately, in the man that I choose to invest my time and energy in. I tell men who I date up front. If you have tendancies and different priorities, I'm not trying to change you..just be honest with me so I can assess our compatibility. Humans differ from animals because of our ability and want to reason. I reason and when I do, I choose not to have porn/strippers in my life and do not want to explain to my daugher why it is that her dad looks at that stuff and the BS that it's natural for men to do so. The point of it all is values and priorities. Keep your standards high and teach your kids accordingly, that's the starting point in bettering society and culture, especially in a day where we are experiencing a serious values crisis. Take a stance, educate yourself on the issue as opposed to not caring one way or the other.
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (1 September 2006): Oh dear soul sister...do you really believe that women have the same choices in life as men????hmmmmYou say that its the same as if you saw a male stripper but the truth is .us women mostly have a laugh at males strip shows whilst men usually dribble at the women.....I think its very sad that you feel its harmless fun...my marriage actually broke up and my kids now dont live with their dad...why...all because he said the porn women looked more like his fantasy than me???so men dont always come back....for what its worth, take care....dont believe its as harmless as you think and dont ever kid yourself into thinking that your man is beyond a desire to actually have sex with these women if the opportunity arose......Sure they wouldnt look at them like you....he'd look at them as hot new flesh as his current partner as a second rate substitute...believe me this is sooo true and sad
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female
reader, xxxsoulsistaxxx +, writes (1 September 2006):
 I guess it all depends on the woman. I love and trust my partner and know he would never cheat but the fact still remains that, although a man is in love, he still finds the bodies of other women attractive too and there's nothing we can do to stop that.
I wouldn't walk out of a party if a male stripper turned up! I'd enjoy the fun, have sneaky peak and that's all. That doesn't mean I want to have sex with this man, I just want a look at a body that's probably a lot closer to my fantasy than my partner, let's face it!
But I'm secure in my body and know that whatever he see's there, he will never look at them the way he looks at me. It probably is degrading to women but no one makes those women dance around naked for men to leer at, they love doing it. So men will always take advantage.
At the end of the day, I know my man is always going to come back to me at night, no matter what he's seen so I don't mind him seeing strippers every now and then. If it turned into an obsession, then maybe I'd moan.
As for porn, it is sick to think people use sex that way, but it's good to watch and it turns people on! Nobody gets hurt, everybody consents to making the video so why can't we enjoy it? There's nothing wrong with a bit of harmless sexy fun.
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reader, Dazzerg +, writes (1 September 2006):
 I don’t think there is anything wrong with women saying that they don’t want their partner doing this at all. Also I feel that if this is how your partner feels then as a man you should respect that and put these things aside.
Having said that this is very much one of those 'individual choice' contextual issues. I have been with one partner at least who was actually more into porn than me! Just as there is nothing wrong with women who don't want these things in the relationship there is nothing wrong with that either.
It's one of those things where the most important thing is that boundaries are set and that each partner communicates their feelings to each other and that each works towards a soultion where both parties feel that their feelings are being respected.
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