A
female
age
36-40,
anonymous
writes:I know this is controversial, but I've been discussing it with my boyfriend and some female friends that I have. It's hard to get insight from guys I know because they just "leave it alone". I would LOVE to get insight from social workers or police, but of course, that's not going to happen. My boyfriend and I were talking about something unrelated and he said, "I hate it when people ask my part in (situation). No. You don't ask a rape victim what part SHE played? Do you? No.?" That's when it started. I pointed out that yes, yes they do ask her her part and in fact they blame HER for it (if they even believe her). The blamers are the police, her friends, and the guy himself. Some years ago, he was robbed at knife point so I asked him, "When you were robbed a few years back, did you make a police report?" (yes) "OK, so what did the cops ask you?" (usual, where he was at, what time it was, where he was coming/going, how much the guy took, what the knife looked like, what the guy looked like, where he ran off to). "OK, perfectly valid questions. BUT did they ask if you were drinking and how much? Whether or not you were on drugs? Did they ask why you were out by yourself at 2 in the morning? Did they ask what you were wearing? Did they want to know how long you'd been talking to the guy before hand and if maybe you'd said/done something to give the impression you wanted to be robbed? Did they ask you if you maybe changed your mind about being robbed after the fact? Did they ask if you were SURE that's what happened?" My boyfriend just looked at me and said. "Why would they ask stupid questions like that?" Exactly. Because those are questions they ask many rape victims. As for the victim's "friends", maybe the girl worked at a Strip Joint and some client followed her home to get what he thought she was offering (or to take it because he was pissed she didn't do what he asked). Her friends say, "Well ... it IS a dangerous job and there ARE a lot of pervs that go there ..." Maybe she was at a fraternity party, felt a little woozy after two plastic cups of keg beer and found she could barely stand when she went to get sick outside. so the "nice" guy who handed her her drink offers to let her lie down so he can "watch over her". Doesn't matter that he popped something in her drink or that her judgment was clouded, her friends say "That was stupid on her part. She should have watched her drink. She knew he was a sleeze-ball." Let's say the girl is living with and dating the guy and she's just tired. She doesn't WANT to do it and he keeps persisting and doesn't hear "no" ... she feels stupid screaming and he doesn't care that she's staring of to the side with tears streaming down her face. She tells her friends and they say, "How long has it been since you guys have had sex? I mean, you're basically just treating him like a roommate that pays the rent, you know." It could be anything! But if she wants to take it to court, the "friends" in all these situations (yes, those were real situations that women I know went though) they said, "Oh ... well, he's a mutual friend of ours, I don't want to take sides." "We've known him forever, he didn't mean to do that. It was just a misunderstanding. You didn't say 'no' loud enough" "Oh come on, she was all over him and she was LAUGHING when he carrieed her off to the bedroom - she didn't mean it when she told him to stop it and set her down" "please, she was in that short little skirt and grinding all over him, of COURSE he thought she wanted to do something and she LET HIM DRIVE HER HOME. What did she expect?" Sorry for the rambling, but I'd really like some in sight. I'm sure that many women (or men, for that matter) have been victimized and you don't have to share that. But I DO want to know what happened when you or someone you know DID try to file a police report. What did the friends say? Anything similar to the experiences of me and my friends? Also, I'd like to hear what it is that motivates this victim blaming from the very people who are supposed to be HELPING. I've found myself accidentally blaming the victim too sometimes by saying things like, "We're not in high school anymore. No man in our age group is going to be cool with making out, rubbing him though his pants and then going on about his day like nothing happened. come on!" or "those were totally poor decisions that girl made, she was sober, she should have known better." I hate admitting that, and I'd like to know where that sort of thing comes from. Is everyone guilty of victim blaming in some way?
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female
reader, Ciar  +, writes (20 August 2014):
 There are folks who hold women to a higher standard and will blame us no matter what. I'm not even going to address those because they don't have valid arguments and therefore they just don't rate.
What most people are referring to is when the victim ignores obvious red flags and fails to take the steps that a REASONABLE PERSON would take to ensure their own safety.
You've raised some very good points, but here are a few more:
If I teach my children to look both ways before crossing the street am I also teaching them that if they get hit by a car it's their own fault and they deserve it?
Let's say you forgot your laptop at my house and you call me the next day to tell me you'll pick it on your way home from work. If I left it on the front porch and it was stolen would you see me as an innocent victim of a robbery or would you be angry with me for carelessly leaving your property out in the open?
Yet another hypothetical: A man takes his 4 year old son to the park. Once there, he realises he's forgotten his wallet and cell phone at home. It's a 10 minute walk one way but he can make it in half the time if h runs so off he goes. When he returns his son is gone and a week later his tiny body is found in a nearby ditch, clearly the victim of foul play. Should we see this grieving father as an innocent victim or would we condemn him for being a careless parent who knew the dangers but ignored them?
You're right that women should be free to enjoy life without having to worry about what dangers are lurking around every corner. We shouldn't be assaulted just because we're drunk or naked, but by the same token we shouldn't need locks on our doors, alarm systems, security guards, CCTV, anti-virus software, encryption software and passwords.
Dangers do exist and only a fool would rely on the fact that crime is illegal as our sole means of protection. If we take steps to protect our property, should we be any less diligent about protecting our person?
A
male
reader, Mark1978  +, writes (19 August 2014):
 In an ideal world we would all have the right to do what we want, when we want and where we want. As long as it is morally and legally correct we should be free to exercise our right of freedom. We should be able to chat to anyone we wish, wear whatever we want and not become a victim nor blamed for being the victim as a result.
Sadly that's not the world we live in. We live in a hostile world where too many people want to take away those rights. Too many people want to hurt us, take advantage, rape, murder or steal from us and much more besides. We all have to ensure our own safety and wellbeing as much is humanly possible because of the world we live in. Rape is a dreadful crime and more should be done to both support victims and punish those responsible.
Sadly, whether it be rape at one extreme, identity theft, financial scams, or whatever towards the other, there is no shortage of people making it very easy for a perpetrator to make them their victim. The frightening fact is that most rape victims are chosen not at random, but because of the decisions they have made leading up to the appalling crime.
As individuals we cannot take away the many, many problems in our societies. Knife crime, gun crime, anti social behaviour, drugs, gangs, aggression, rape, murder....In an ideal world our respective governments would tackle the issues in schools to avoid youngsters becoming problem teens, parents would take full responsibility for bringing children into this world only when emotionally ready to bring all the love and support that child needs to prevent them becoming angry and out of control. The justice system would deal fairly, swiftly and, where appropriate, severely with criminals and wrong doers - both to keep our streets safe and serve as a strong warning to those who may stray from civilized behaviours. Problems could be resolved through talking and all of use would be free to make full us of our legal and moral rights.
In reality life doesn't work like that. We live in a world which is hostile and dangerous and we ALL have a responsibility to ensure our well being and safety to the greatest extent possible. To use a cliché - we cannot change the hand we are dealt with, but we can decide how to play it.
Im shocked, despite living in a major city for most of my life, every time I see (which is very regularly) incredibly attractive women, scantily clad, staggering around drunk, separated from friends, and asking random men for a ride home. I frequently see women stroking mens genitals through their trousers, dancing provocatively with the testosterone and alcohol fuelled guy and letting him caress her breasts in bars and clubs only to then struggle to tell they guy she only wants to go as far as that. Many women I know - bright, intelligent, otherwise sensible women, walk home down dark alleys or over waste ground alone at night. Often with earphones in or too drunk to focus.
NON of those women deserve to be rapped. Non of them EVER should be hurt in such a terrible way. But, realistically, there ARE rapists out there, there ARE sexual predators and those who want to take advantage of lone women out at night in an isolated part of town. There are men with aggression issues and no sense of responsibility who think if a woman strokes his dick in a club that he is OWED sex. There are men who look for drunken, lone women in clubs and bars to "help" home. Men who will spike a womens drink are prevalent too in this society we live in.
We all know that and we all have to keep our wits about us. Instead people, often after drinking or taking drugs (either recreational or hard stuff), take their eye off the ball. They start flirting with "ladz" who are pumped up with hormones and booze and start twerking, stroking, snogging, teasing and then agree to go home with that man. It doesn't take much imagination to see what would happen when the randy guy, his sense of judgement impaired through drink and lust, is told by the woman that she doesn't want sex. Many men are not going to say "Okay no problem I respect your rights". HE SHOULD NOT BEHAVE THAT WAY but some men will. That's the world we live in. Equally the victim should be supported and respected, yet questions should be asked as to why she put herself in such a position.
A good friend of mine was robbed and beaten up some time ago when walking home alone in an expensive suit, chunky bling bling, gold chains and around £1000 in notes in his pocket. It happened late at night in a dark alleyway. He SHOULD have been able to walk alone, with lots of gold and money, at night without incident. Those are his "rights". Yet those rights were violated and waving his legal or human rights at those beating him to the ground would do nothing to ward off the ferocity nor the severity of his attack. What my friend did was naïve and foolish. If he can afford to have a grand on the hip and gold jewellery then he can damn well afford a taxi or at least not walk down an unlit, narrow alley alone in the early hours.
There is a big difference between fault/blame and responsibility. My friend needs to take some responsibility for becoming a victim.
I say again that rape is a dreadful, horrific crime that effects many people of both sexes. I am appalled whenever I hear of such terrible things happening. Yet one of the big issues is that of consent. Clearly if I cleared your bank account, gave you a black eye or shit on your door step, its a no brainer that you would not consent to such actions. Clearly it would be a criminal act. However if sexual intercourse takes place between two people, proving consent, or lack of, becomes very difficult. Without a legal requirement for a signed consent form from each of our partners detailing what an individual is allowed to do or not do sexually, proving either party was fully consenting, partially consenting, in no way understanding the situation or screaming for help becomes a difficult matter with so many legal loopholes and issues.
As for the quotes you gave for friends of victims such as...."Oh come on, she was all over him and she was LAUGHING when he carried her off to the bedroom - she didn't mean it when she told him to stop it and set her down" "please, she was in that short little skirt and grinding all over him, of COURSE he thought she wanted to do something and she LET HIM DRIVE HER HOME. What did she expect?"....well when my friend was mugged we all said "oh come on, he walked around alone in the early hours in a dark alley flashing his expensive phone and with his jewellery glinting temptingly in the moon light!" Hardly unfair.
If a woman does grind all over a man in a short skirt and lets a man drive her home then clearly she is giving the strong signals she wants sex. If she then says no she will be isolated in a mans flat or room and he will be extremely keen to get what she teased and temped him to. No should mean no, but there is a fine line between being sensible and being vulnerable.
Mark
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (19 August 2014): It depends a lot OP, because "victim blaming" is a feminist term that is misused. It's used as a buzzword to kill relevant arguments.
Telling a rape victim she shouldn't have walked home alone that night is victim blaming. Telling your daughter it's not safe to walk alone at night is not victim blaming. Yet feminists say it is. It's not, it's personal responsibility and trying to keep them safe, so if you ask me when someone uses the term victim blaming it shuts down all conversation because they obviously don't know what they're talking about and no logical discussion is possible.
Because as a man I can tell you, when a feminist gets an idea in her head such as slut shaming, victim blaming etc she won't change it or even discuss it she'll just call you a misogynist for not agreeing with her. Something I know will happen in this thread too.
OP your analogy is flawed, there's only one definition of being mugged; someone uses force or the threat of force to take your stuff, it's very cut and dry. Rape is a very grey area with a lot of scope for interpretation and many different versions of the same crime. Not wearing a condom when you said you would, not pulling out when you said you would, not taking the first no as an answer but pestering her a for a yes. I've pestered my wife for a yes, is that rape? If I pester another woman and she agrees to sex is that rape? How can I know whether she's just playing hard to get, which a lot of women do, or whether she's frightened of saying "no" to me for some crazy reason?
I've had one night stands where the woman woke up and looked at me like I had two heads "who are you, did we have sex?" women that initiated, women that were on top and fucked my brains out who couldn't remember a thing and could turn around and assume that must mean rape because many do.
My wife is a psychologist who specialises in sexual predation. You know the way the statistics of successful prosecution of rape cases are so low and feminists claim that's due to a lack of justice? 1/3 of those cases that fail are due to the woman not actually having been raped but just not remembering that she had consented and taken part. Or having originally said "no" let the guy talk to them into it, which is also not always considered rape. Just like consent can be removed when you ask someone to stop, consent can also be given after you've said no, you are allowed to change your mind.
Women that had a boyfriend that were sure they would never cheat who got too drunk and just assumed (much to the detriment of the the guy they accused) that they couldn't have possibly done that. Women who were virgins or had never had a one night stand that assume not remembering means they were too drunk to consent when the fact is they were lucid, awake and not only consented but made all the moves.
Women who cheated on their boyfriend and when caught cried rape.
OP the police need to establish whether it's rape or not, they can't just go on the woman's word when as I said 1/3 of them accuse the man based on an assumption that's incorrect, not fact. The assumption that they couldn't have consented because they can't remember when they actually did or that because they said no once but then gave in and consented that it was still rape. So they do have to ask if she consented to other sexual stuff, they do have to ask why she went to be alone with him, they do have to ask how much did she have to drink and whether she's the type of person who is lucid while that blasted because in one third of cases the real victim is the man who is being inadvertently accused of a crime he didn't commit, a crime which just being accused of means he will be labelled that and it will ruin his life.
OP people who use the term victim blaming, mostly feminists, do so from the point of view that no matter whether the woman is right or wrong about being raped she should automatically be considered the victim ahead of the man and not asked questions that might hurt her feelings.
How is that justice? How would it be justice not to get to the bottom of what happened because when it really did happen it's hard for a rape victim to respond to those questions?
Where's the fairness in that? Are you saying we must just accept a woman's take on things if she says she was raped without even finding out whether she's right or not?
Feminists would rather we didn't ask these questions and just automatically believe women, but how else are we supposed to understand what happened if we can't question the person accusing another of a crime that is so confusing even to legal experts can have trouble defining whether it happened or not in individual cases.
OP you need to understand that rape is not black and white, and that just because a woman feels like she has been doesn't mean it actually happened the way she convinced herself it has. I agree that it's harsh for a woman who has been raped to go through such questioning, and I'd love if there was another way we could get to the truth without asking those questions but men deserve to be protected too, you can't just accuse someone of a crime and expect people to automatically believe you because then you make your accused a victim without any kind of recourse.
For me true victim blaming is telling a woman who was raped she shouldn't have gotten drunk, telling her she should have known better etc. It's counter-productive and adds further trauma to a person who more than likely blames herself. But when it comes to an accusation of rape men need to protected too and even women need to be protected from making the mistake of false accusations.
There's a reason a lot of these don't make it to trial, you know "lack of evidence" statistics also include those cases that weren't actually rape. My wife did a research project with women like that and many of them are relieved that it never went to court because they remember more now than what they did back then and realise they were wrong, or they ended up getting just drunk and doing it again.
My point is, OP, there needs to be a discussion about what victim blaming actually is, because from where I'm sitting it just means not automatically believing a woman when she says she was wronged. It needs to be defined and it needs to be properly applied.
I've never truly victim blamed, it's never the fault of the victim. But there are ways to lesson the chances of it happening and I will be damned if I won't teach those to my daughters because some feminists think it victim blames. I'd rather lessen the chances of others becoming victims than worry about hurting people's feelings.
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A
female
reader, CindyCares  +, writes (19 August 2014):
 Yes. I surely am, in the sense that you mention,...and I do not apologize for that. At all.
I think that there is a biiig difference between taking ( or giving ) blame and taking ( or giving ) responsibility. I think it's everybody's responsibility - no matter how many protective structures ,- police, etc.,- any society chooses to employ for the safeguard of their members - to co-create our own safety, care and well being.
I think that people should stop living as if we were in an ideal ,perfect world where everybody's rights are always respected and nobody has the instinct to prevaricate. It is what it is- and while we STRIVE, we FIGHT, to change society, and its attitudes, costumes , perceptions and prejudices - that does not exempt us from being AWARE of what goes on in any given environment, social situation and even neighborhood. I think it befalls on each of us to do our homework before we begin anything, from a solo trip on the Moroccan mountains, to a dash at the nearest mall, and to adopt the most prudent, most rational ,most functional behaviour according to the circumstances.
Children live " as if ". Adults live as it is- and again, this does not mean they can't fight like lions to change what 's wrong. But,while the fight is on, they still must take well into account what could be ( or go ) wrong anyway.
I like strolling at night, and when I lived in New York, I would have loved to take a long, solitary walk through Central Park, ( or through the Bronx, for local
" colour " ) at night. And, as a fashion conscious Italian;), I do not much believe in sweatpants and hoodies, when I go out I'd like to put on the ritz a bit- jewels, designer accessories, ..maybe even a furcoat.
Did I ever go through Cental Park at night with my best finery on ? No. Too risky and I knew it. Wasn't it a limitation of my personal freedom, should I not have the right to go wherever I want , whenever I want, dressed any way I like ? It sure was, and I sure should be !
But I am NOT, and not taking it into account could have dramatic consequences - which , as an adult, I am supposed to know about. Then, I'll decide if I want to risk- but it has to be an informed decision. I can't just throw all caution to the wind and then complain that the world is mean. Newsflash : the world can be mean, and shit may happen. Maximizing your chances that it does NOT happen, it's just common sense . And while pointing out,or hinting, a lack of common sense, a lack of prudence, a lack of awareness, a lack of street-smart etc. to a victim of rape may sound, heck !, it may even BE !, ingenerous, and cynical, at the end of the day it may result even USEFUL, so that other girls can avoid the same predicament.
Frankly, and I am aware that I may sound like an old curdmudgeon, and a total bitch too, I am getting a bit impatient, with ... what we typically get here ,for instance( famous Italian tourist city ): young tourist , or exchange student, on year-round spring break- dressed with not enough fabric to sew a pair of knickers for a parrot, drunk as a skunk by 11 p.m., decide to close the night with some weed, or a hit of coke, follows home the attractive young pusher just met , for "chilling " at ease... and , uh-oh, shit may happen. That is wrong, I agree- in an ideal world, corner-of-the- street pushers ( or, perfectly unknown dudes, picked up casually , anyway ) should be romantic gentlemen who invite girls home to offer them tea and sympathy, but they are NOT. So, while, if course no woman in the world DESERVES to be molested or raped, and as a fellow woman ( and a mother ) I am terribly sad for ANY girl who should go through such a shocking experience,- on the other hand , I do not think that it callous or inappropriate for me to wish that they would either learn the ways of the world- or stay safe at home.
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