A
female
age
51-59,
anonymous
writes:my new boyfriend has told me that his upbringing was awful. his dad was a verbally abusive and violent drunk who made his families life hell. this experience has left my boyfriend suffering with depression, inability to have lasting relationships, had lots of relationships and casual sex and has cheated in the past.a sensible person might walk away from him and leave him to it but i am hooked already because we have lots in common and really seem to have bonded, as friends but also feel like we have fallen for each other. i am scared because i think he might always be haunted by his past life, no matter how much love i show him, if he is just SO damaged. any advice as to how i can help him?
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reader, anonymous, writes (16 February 2011): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionits another day and i feel better about things after a nights sleep.
@dirtball, yes, from what he says he does seem to think he is beyond repair, or at least he does not want to bother seeking repair. it is just up to the rest of the the world to accept him the way he is. i came across a quote that reminds me of him: 'if life gives you lemons, don't squirt them in other peoples eyes' and that's exactly what he is doing. if this was me, and i was going around hurting people because of my issues (which actually in the past i suppose i have done) then that would make me feel even more crap about myself.
last night on the phone he was telling me about a woman at work that fancies him. and he laughed 'i've got my own little fan-club' (meaning me and her) and i thought this sounded really arrogant, a trait i have never seen in him before.
@ohgetreal, regarding the dilated pupils. when i saw him the other night his pupils were huge. i noticed it as soon as i saw him. i commented on it and he quickly explained that they were always like that. however, i have seen him plenty of times before when working with him and i can say that i never noticed this. and i am sure that i would have remembered. his eyes used to just look ordinary.
thank you for all of you that have answered here. you have been patient with me when i have had thoughts of getting involved with him regardless and giving him a chance. i have firmly decided now, that this is NOT going to happen. had too many bad relationships already
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male
reader, dirtball  +, writes (16 February 2011):
 Based particularly on that laundry list of things in your last update, I would say this is a very troubled individual. It's impossible to discern what his issues may be. I think he has attachment issues. Probably trust issues mixed up with recreational drug use. He has a poor track record and all the excuses in the book for why he does what he does. If I learned anything from my dad it's that you make your own decisions in life. Some people have a bum rap. It's shameful that things like that exist in the world. Eventually you can free yourself from it, or perpetuate it. It's obvious he doesn't want to perpetuate it because he got a vasectomy. He did this because he believes he's broken beyond repair.
Is he broken beyond repair? Only he can really say. He would need help, so since he doesn't believe therapy will help, he will be stuck where he is until he decides to make a change.
I don't blame you for not wanting to be with him. It's a wise choice. You would very likely end up hurt.
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reader, anonymous, writes (16 February 2011): This is verified as being by the original poster of the question@ dirtball, sorry, your post must have appeared while i was in the middle of my 'brief' summary. what is your opinion of him from what i have wrote? i am glad you have seen this question and i would be grateful for your further input.
i think really now, it is a 'done deal' as i am scaring myself about him. amazed still at how much can be going on underneath the pleasant surface of someone. forgot to mention he has actually had a vasectomy a few years ago (aged only 33 and having had no children) because he was terrified of having children and ending up like his own dad.
so dirtball, yes i understand that some people come from terrible upbringings but they somehow, maybe with their own strength of mind/character do not let the problems shape their future in a bad way. i am glad to hear your dad has made a success of life after his bad start, but my friend has openly admitted that he is very damaged, he makes no secret of this
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reader, OhGetReal +, writes (16 February 2011):
 He's dangerous get away from him. You don't like yourself or you would never even consider a guy who is so clearly not your equal.
He's a liar. I have 3 physicians in my family. Dialated pupils means he is high on drugs or just had a seizure. Now which do you think it is?
If you have this much empathy you need to find an outlet for it like helping the elderly or animals--the 4 legged kind!
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reader, anonymous, writes (16 February 2011): This is verified as being by the original poster of the question@walkindude, he refuses to try therapy, says the system failed him as a child so has no faith in it now. also the last time he was 'nearly hospitalised' (which in itself is a bit of a confusing thing for him to say) he saw a psych doctor who he found unhelpful.
as the situation stands now, he has been contacting me today, prodding me for responses when he was left as the last one who texted and he has phoned me, (i am really upset but i did not let him see) on the phone he was as chatty and happy as usual. also texted me after our call and then again at night, we are still on a friendly basis, and when i softened and text him that said 'i miss you even though i know i shouldn't, good night' he just replied with a curt 'its ok babe xx' and signed off for the night. which made me feel like he had been trying all day to get that sort of reaction out of me and then when he did he was satisfied. he has SWITCHED from 'loving' me and 'wanting a future' with me to being perfectly happy to just be friends.
@ ohgetreal. as you seem to be quite educated about pathological people here is a brief summary of things i have noticed..
very charming, mentioning love within first few days, abused upbringing (drunken dad would beat him, ignore him, be nasty to him and do the same to his mum and sisters - he refers to what he has told me as 'the tip of the iceberg') disruptive at school, displays remarkable intelligence in his conversations and the things he says he is interested in (culture, all arts, classical history, as well as people, animals, literature) yet has no qualifications and a very lowly job and no ambition to change this, compliments everything about me and apologises for doing this but says he can't help it, says he was bullied at school, involved in lots of drugs and alcohol when younger, admits to sleeping with about 30 women and admits to being unfaithful in the past, even though he was criticising 2 friends of his for being unfaithful to their girlfriends, has never had a good relationship, says has never loved anyone (but tells me within days that he loved me) goes to sleep in work when he can get away with doing so and does not complete his work if there is no boss there to make sure he does (brags about this), had 2 breakdowns a few years ago (says this was brought on by his drug taking) and these breakdowns involved OCD 'with sexual thoughts', has disturbing dreams (told me about one where he and some friends had kidnapped a man, bundled him into a suitcase and then this case with the man in it ended up accidentally getting mangled in some kind of machinary and the mans blood was everywhere) has dilated pupils all the time and says he and his doctor don't know why (maybe he is on anti psychotic medication?)his 2 best friends are a womaniser and a trouble maker (he has told me this)
he has volunteered all the above information, none of it is conjecture by me, except for me supposing that he may be on prescription medication because of his dilated pupils. he could have easily kept all this to himself, i am surprised that he didn't.
actually seeing this typed up has made me properly convinced i don't even want to be his friend any more, but i still wish he would decide to get professional help, and i know i probably shouldn't but i dislike myself for rejecting him because he is 'defective' :(
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reader, dirtball +, writes (16 February 2011):
OP, perhaps you weren't as wrong about him as you thought. My father came up just like he did, and he has been married for 40 years, raised a family, and is now happily retired. Some people really do just need that special someone to help motivate them to be the person they can be. It definitely takes work, but it can be done.
Don't be taken in comepletely by convincing arguments. Sometimes people like the sound of their own voice too much. They can be very dangerous too.
The best thing you can do is think for yourself. Go with what you feel you want. It won't always work out, but at least you're not losing out on something because of a maybe.
"Fear is to warn us of danger, not make us afraid of it."
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reader, anonymous, writes (16 February 2011): You are deriving your value based on how he treats you, which means that your value is pretty low. As long as you allow these men to impact on your perception of yourself, your value will continue to dip. Set your own value, set your own worth and when these chumps come along and try to send it plummeting,tell them to beat it.
Remember, there is a reason your behavior is so oddly in sync with his and out of the two of you, you’re the far more pliable one. the only way that you can deal with this issue is by helping yourself. Since you’ve taken the time to find out information about this problem, you’re a damn sight more connected than he is and you are giving yourself the power to change your path.
Because I guarantee you, if you don’t start to understand who you are, what you’ve been doing, and how you fit in so well with the agenda of a guy like this, you will find yourself on a path where you go round and round in circles, trapped in a negative relationship pattern. Change lies with you, not him.
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reader, anonymous, writes (15 February 2011): ohgetreal: not everybody is a sociopath. OP, the only person who can help him is him. Has he thought about some kind of therapy?
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reader, OhGetReal +, writes (15 February 2011):
Well I wouldn't beat yourself up about this. This guy has a personality disorder he is a master at mirroring people and tapping into their hopes and hooking your emotions and all underneath your awareness, they fool professionals all of the time as they wear a mask of sanity. That is why you have to educate yourself to read the signs of a disordered person. Being around someone so toxic with their distorted world view and crazymaking is experienced as traumatic by non borderlines or non disordered people. That is a sign you are not a borderline like you fear. It is a slow process and takes some time to come to terms with the fact that a person you could like so much is actually very sick..it is a painful process, but you've learned something from it.
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reader, anonymous, writes (15 February 2011): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questioni know you are right ohgetreal. it just seems so surreal to me that i have gotten someone SO wrong. i am not a kid, i thought i was a fairly good judge of character, but it seems i am not. i am in tatters emotionally today :( and i was the one who said 'if he hurts me, i'll get over it' i feel bad enough already so i am just glad that i did not get more involved and then find out about his issues further down the line. i know i definitely need some therapy myself because i know that my reaction to this situation is not normal. i am acting as if a long term relationship has crashed down around me, when in reality i have only been with him a casual couple of weeks. i'm being ridiculous
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reader, OhGetReal +, writes (15 February 2011):
You have to stop thinking about this man and his behavior as a normal guy. You"LL be drawing the wrong conclusions. You can't get over the wounded little boy he was because he won"t let you forget. He"s stating his past poor me stories matter of factly because first pathological men feel no shame about this like normal people do and he uses pity to seduce your emotions. Martha Stout who has dealt with sociopaths for over 20 years says in her book "The Sociopath Next Door" that the number one predictor with 100% accuracy that you are dealing with a sociopath is the pity play. Granted normal people do have rough patches and will tell a sad tale but they don't do it for sympathy they don't have and agenda or want a romantic relationship with you.
Listen to the previous post from anon about the friend card she is spot on with concern to pathological men.
These men may actually not be pretending they are in love they may believe they are in love but that isn't the take away here. They don't love like normal people do they look for an attachment someone to suck dry and they lack deep feelings and will drop you on your head, where you are looking for a connection that will lead to true intimacy and adult love. This man is retarded emotionally forever a child he is
of real love. That is what is the take away here.
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reader, anonymous, writes (15 February 2011): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionthanks anon female. yes i understand what you are saying and i know that the smartest thing to do would have been to cut him out completely. this man i want to be friends with is probably just a character anyway made up by himself and playing whatever part he thinks will have a role in my life.
this morning i have deleted all his text messages from my phone. i thought there was no point keeping them because i feel they are total romantic fiction.
he lives about 40mins drive from me, i have a car but he doesn't so at least there is no chance of him turning up at my door looking for sympathy/attention/help/affection/sex.
in spite of me thinking he is just a user and manipulator and too emotionally dangerous to get into a relationship with, i just cannot forget the poor little damaged boy he was. i also am finding this all surreal as like i said, when i worked with him and got back in contact with him he just seemed such a nice person, his personality is never anything but bubbly, he is funny, chatty, eloquent. its unbelievable that he has got all those bad issues under the surface. he confesses his problems to me matter of factly, he doesn't discuss them at great length.
there will definitely be no sex, i can assure you. to be honest i even doubt that i will hear from him again. i am sure he does not even feel anything for me, maybe people like this train themselves to not really 'feel' as a coping mechanism, but they will still play the part of someone in love. of note, he had told me that he had never been in love, and i saw this as a red flag because i am guessing that he never admitted to his exes that he did not really love them.
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reader, anonymous, writes (15 February 2011): The “Friend Card” is the saviour of any issue riddled man who wants to keep a codependent woman in tow. The declaration of friendship enables him to call you up, pester you to meet up or for sex, long talks about himself, and pretty much keep his foot in the door. He can keep tabs on whether you’re dating again or losing interest in him…because it facilitates whether he makes a lot of noise about the changes he's making or not. The moment that you appear to be moving on is when he’ll home in on you, say all the right things, and set you back ten steps.
You’ve readily accepted his offer of his friendship because you don’t want to let go either and you keep reminding yourself of his potential, what great qualities he has, and how connected you are, and how he’s so like your soulmate except for the small problem of him being emotionally incapable of a relationship.
He has already planted the seed, and until you have moved on (no contact for a long time), he will be playing on your mind. Until he is certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have moved on (i.e. you are with somebody else, you’ve told him you hate his guts, or you change all of your contact details/move away), he will keep trying and keep resurfacing when you are weak. All it takes is for you to be having a bad day or feeling a bit low when he makes contact and this becomes his entry point and your downfall.
The mistake that you are making in a situation like this is assuming that his need to have a tentacle in your life correlates with the amount of feeling he has for you, and that he must find it difficult to resist you and let go. The only thing that is right about this assumption is his inability to let go, but it has nothing to do with how he feels about you and everything to do with his lack of commitment to working on his issues.
the reality is that the only purpose of the tentacle in your life is to prevent you from moving on…even if he does. He is not your friend. His friend is TIME. The time you are generously giving him enables him to avoid confronting the reality of the here and now because he can always stake himself on a future that he will no doubt avoid when that comes rolling around.
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reader, anonymous, writes (15 February 2011): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionfinal update ( i think)
on speaking further he tells me that in the past he has had 2 very serious breakdowns that nearly had him hospitalised. he feels this was brought on by recreational drug taking, says he doesn't touch anything nowadays. i have told him straight that i am not a strong enough person to take on a relationship with him. we have agreed to be friends instead and he seems very happy with this, like he has switched to 'friend mode' like the flick of a switch which shows me that all the stuff he had been saying was BS as i suspected. i am upset to be honest but i know perfectly well it is better this way rather than get sucked into his mad world. we are still texting each other right now as i write, but it remains to be seen if he really continues to stay in touch, i am guessing he won't and maybe that will not be a bad thing. i will be always glad that he told me about his issues while it is still early days.
thank you all. you have really saved me from a lot of heartache. and to ohgetreal, i have ordered a book that you suggested, thank you for your advice
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reader, anonymous, writes (14 February 2011): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionthank you all again for your time. you are helping me more than you know. the way i feel now is completely different from the way i did, say, this time last week. i now only feel pity for this man, the same i would for any abused child. i am not sure how to let him down gently, so i think i will just ease off with my affection and nice texts to him so hopefully he will just decide to look else where for attention. you are right all of you that think i am taking this on as a project. ever since he told me about his past i have thought that and that's why i came here looking for advice.
when i worked with him he just seemed like a 'normal' nice person. not charming, or flirty just polite and friendly. so when i found out that he liked me i was obviously delighted but now it has turned into a bit of a nightmare. i did not enjoy our date much because i had made myself wary of him.
i just feel so sorry now that he has been damaged and i wish to god i could help him, but i know that trying will probably just backfire on me because i don't even have the strength to help myself, let alone someone else. i have been reading a lot about 'borderline personality disorder' in the last few days and i feel as if i myself am somewhere to be found on that spectrum :(
incidentally, he has text me this morning and told me about a weird dream he was having before he woke up: he and some friends had kidnapped someone and where being chased by the police. i know its only a dream but stuff like that is just putting me off even more!
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reader, anonymous, writes (13 February 2011): Dysfunctional anon here. The thing you have to decide for yourself is if this guy merely has baggage or if he is damaged so thoroughly that he will become what his environment has taught him is the norm.
The women here that are telling you to dump him now have valid concerns and ones you must carefully consider.
If you proceed you must carefully watch that his actions match his words. Not the words he chooses to describe his past relationships. But if he is ready to commit now and treat you well.
Unfortunately few people attempt to rise above the sewer they were raised in and avoid using their past as an excuse to act out in the only way they know to be normal. This is for you to decide.
In that regard I would say that history does not predict that he will be a keeper and I would tend to fall in with the others on this.
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reader, anonymous, writes (13 February 2011): I am the female anon from the dysfunctional family. Every day is a struggle. I can be consumed with anger about the past and it can be triggered in ways that make no sense even to me.
But I refuse to take it out on the people I love.
My family robbed me of my childhood. I will not hand them my adult life without a fight.
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reader, OhGetReal +, writes (13 February 2011):
Dear Female Anon,I think you made some very valid points in your post, but I don't agree with your statement that he will replace her with someone healthier and that she thinks she is perfect and is settling for a project relationship because it is just so hard to find someone to be with someone as fabulous as her.She has made herself vulnerable to him by talking of her past relationship mistakes, she's acknowledged some of her weaknesses, I don't think she is sending that message of her fabulousness out to him as she is in a one up position.. In fact I think her fabulousness is why he targeted her in the first place, along with her high degree of empathy and blind trust and cooperativeness.He won't leave her because she is fabulous, he will leave her when she starts to wake up to what he isn't and to all his lies and hiding behind a mask and then he will be moving on because his manipulation tactics are no longer getting him what he wants.He won't trade her in for someone healthier because he isn't healthy himself, it will just be another "target" that he can use and manipulate. So let's not attack the victim of a charming, weak man for being seduced by all of that "potential" he is throwing out there. This is in all it's form a seduction...she feels the warnings but is talking herself out of them which is why she is writing here for help...and yes there is an element of narcissism in wanting to help someone realize their potential and to do that it does require trying to change someone, it also requires support and ego stroking and sacrifice, which are noble indeed but won't get her far with this pathological guy because he isn't real in the first place.
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reader, anonymous, writes (13 February 2011): You need to hear, "red flag, abort mission!" Men that tell you these sad tales, do so because they’re trying to tell you not to come any closer. They’re giving you a heads up and a get out moment. They only think of themselves and you only think of them. How wonderful to never actually have to consider someone else and have a woman marginalise her needs, her aspirations, and her expectations so that she can stand by a man who is living on another planet. Who is thinking about you? If you’re not thinking about you, and he’s not thinking about you, that equals serious problems.You need to stop being so giving. That’s not just with the emotions, that’s with everything because by throwing yourself, your time, your energy, your devotion, your love, your sex, your desperation, your everything at this man, it’s like forcing what you have on someone because you give to receive.This help you are giving is about control, righting the wrongs of the past, and proving your worth by being bigger than his issues but his is issues are greater than the sum of your relationship. This need you have to change him, fix him, heal him, and pretty much expect him to be more than he is capable of being, but most importantly expecting him not to be his issued self, actually says more about YOU than it does about him.You have a major problem when you focus your energies on starting out with one type of man and turning him into someone else by pushing the wheels of change, thinking if you love him enough you can heal him. You are not the solution to his problems and you are not what is missing from his life.No good will ever come of attempting to control somebody and at some point things can and will turn sour. You’re never going to be satisfied and he’s in a no-win situation. If he does miraculously change despite your trying to fix him, particularly if he has some pretty big issues going on, you still won’t be happy because you need to feel needed and he'll trade you in for someone healthier.Not only are you expending valuable energy on your pet project, but also it actually says more about you, than it does about him. The desire to change somebody has its home in a fear of addressing concerns and fears that you may have about yourself. The best way to distract from yourself is to focus on someone else. The message you send out to him is “There’s nothing wrong with me. I’m perfect. The reason why I’m single and I’m struggling with relationships is because it’s hard to find somebody worthy of being with someone as fabulous as me”. I don’t doubt you have your fabulousness and I’m all for bigging yourself up, but nobody’s so perfect that you get to have carte blanche to change every guy you meet.
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reader, OhGetReal +, writes (13 February 2011):
Dear Ms OP,I don't think I misinterpreted anything, I am pointing out the flaws in your thinking, that is what I am good at doing.I am not telling you that I haven't made the same mistake of being seduced by a very similar man, I have, that is why I know all too well what you are telling yourself in order to get involved and stay involved and I can tell you with out a doubt this will be very very damaging to you.To answer your question do I think all people that come from abusive homes become pathological? Of course not. But we're not talking about everyone, we're talking about this particular man and all the red flags waving in your face. It might be interesting to find out more about his father and what kind of person he was, was he pathological because there is a very strong genetic component to this and in my case that applied to the person I became involved with.The focus here should really be on you. You are not the person who could ever handle a guy with so many issues. You are caretaking, nurturing and controlling....all things that I myself have as well. By controlling I mean that you are probably a professional woman who has achieved a certain amount of success in her life, you are capable, smarter than most and you are competitive, so you don't give up easily and you think you can handle other people's shit. But you can't you are also highly empathetic and prone to depression yourself, you don't need some abusive asshole picking off the scabs of old wounds from your own childhood that you have long since put to bed, you will end up very damaged and struggling to regain the person that you once were.I think therapy is in order for you because you obviously have a relationship blueprint that was set for you by your own caregivers and you should try to repair that and learn about yourself and become aware of the things in your own personality that make you a target and yes vulnerable to controlling abusers.This guy has stink all over him, just don't go there with him. You are having intrusive thoughts and ping pong thinking already with this guy because he is manipulating and conning you already and this will keep you stuck and trying to prove to yourself that he really is redeemable and OK for you to get involved with. I would like to see you cut all contact and not even be his friend, but you don't seem to be aware of the damage that this guy can cause you or his ability to suck you in.Try this website, read all of the Sandra Says articles starting at the bottom and reading up. Buy the e books How to Spot a Dangerous Man and especially "Women Who Love Psychopaths--all your education and insight will be in the latter book, the best $14 you will ever spend. Saferelationshipsmagazine.com
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reader, anonymous, writes (13 February 2011): This is verified as being by the original poster of the question@ female anon: thank you. it is good to hear that you treat your family well even after your bad start in life. have you always been so well adjusted or have you had times in your life when you have made relationships difficult? can you share with me the way you feel now, i mean within yourself. even though you are not acting up and causing problems for your loved ones, do you feel ok?
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reader, anonymous, writes (13 February 2011): I am from a fractured and dysfunctional household. Beyond belief.
It does not give me carte blanche to continue the cycle of bad behavior. If anyone should know what it feels like to be violated it is people like me.
I would never perpetuate what was done in our house. Not to anyone much less to a person I loved.
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reader, anonymous, writes (13 February 2011): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionhi again chocoholic, well the relationship i want to have is with someone who doesn't have issues that will be destructive to us. i just want what other plenty of other people are able to find, seemingly effortlessly.
the first red flag for me is that he is so charming and complimentary, this made me want to stop and think about his motives. so we talked more and then this is when firstly he volunteered the information about the number of women he has been with and the cheating (but i have been the same so can i really condemn him?) and then in the next convo, he started to tell me about his dad.
i only posted the question really because i was sure i would be with him and was pre-empting problems so i wanted to be equipped to deal with them. the aunts answers though mostly seem to conclude a 'don't even go there' opinion.
i have found this really useful and believe me, i am not one of these OPs who ignores advice. you all have really made me stop and THINK and i thank you all very much.
and to ohgetreal (if you have cared to come back?) i thank you for your honesty. i have had therapy in the past for my problems but it was when i was younger and i think i might really benefit from having some more now, with a more (supposedly) mature head on my shoulders.
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reader, chocoholicforever +, writes (13 February 2011):
I'm glad you have decided not to get involved with him unless he has gone through therapy and worked on his issues. I think that's a smart decision. I hope for his sake that he gets the help he needs to become more stable.
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reader, chocoholicforever +, writes (13 February 2011):
just curious but what kind of relationship do you (a) wish to have (b) see this becoming, realistically?
Your gut says don't get involved, your analytical brain searches for and rationalizes reasons to get involved.
your feelings are there for a reason.
a big red flag to me is that he acknowledges that he is messed up yet refuses counseling. so what is his solution, then? To stay messed up and then you (or any one else he's involved with) just has to deal? Or he can handle it on his own? Has his track record showed he's handling his issues on his own adequately? His childhood was a long time ago. doesn't he think the 'system' may have changed since then? or that the "system" is different when you're an adult vs a child.
Another thing you said is "it just makes me sad to think that people like him shouldn't be given a chance or do you think he has had enough chances at relationships already and he has ruined them? "
if he really has slept with over 30 women then I think he has had enough chances already!
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reader, anonymous, writes (13 February 2011): This is verified as being by the original poster of the question@ anonymous male 13th Feb, that is interesting, you are the sort of person that i was/am hoping he will be - a reformed character.
what made you change? did your wife know all about your past from the beginning? i would love to hear more of your story - just to get that another view point, i am sure that most of us on this site have read all about pathological behaviours and narcissists but someone like yourself can tell me what it is like on the other side of the fence. i mean, yes your upbringing was terrible but did it make you grow up into someone who was for a time incapable of real love? have you damaged people that you have been with? have you had professional therapy?
i went out with him last night, i had misgivings before i went and seeing him has done nothing to dispel them, in fact seeing him has brought me back down to earth a lot. i do feel more rational and have decided that i will not get involved with him as anything but a friend, at least until he has had therapy. if he chooses to not do this, then he chooses to not have me. i was not happy with the fact that he had refused to even give therapy a chance when we spoke about it last time. i thought it was not good that he would rather go through life letting his problems from the past cling to him and ruin his future, rather than to get help
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reader, anonymous, writes (13 February 2011): This is verified as being by the original poster of the question@ ohgetreal, like i said i agree with a lot of your post, but not the paragraph about the unconditional love, you misinterpreted that part
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reader, anonymous, writes (13 February 2011): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionthank you ohgetreal. your post is very insightful. i called him boyfriend for the sake of simplicity in my first post and also because i could see this fledgling relationship growing into something in the future, and knowing that problems lie ahead i was just looking for advice on how to help him.
the things you say in your post are not things i have not thought about already. i have also got dumb affection for him though, unfortunately. so do you think that an abused child grows into a pathological liar as an adult? is he beyond help? it just makes me sad to think that people like him shouldn't be given a chance or do you think he has had enough chances at relationships already and he has ruined them? thanks for your time, i do honestly appreciate it and i am really seriously considering not getting more involved with him, chocoholicforever suggested keep him on a friendship level for the foreseeable future, and i think that this is a good idea, so i am not totally disregarding him but i am not opening myself up to hurt.
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reader, anonymous, writes (13 February 2011): I would definitely fall into the same category of your guy.
I am now in a long term stable relationship. I have never cheated. I have been a solid stable husband.
If my daughter brought a guy like me to the house I wouldn't let him in the door.
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reader, OhGetReal +, writes (12 February 2011):
By the way a Huge Red Flag for me about you is in your original post you are talking about your "boyfriend", but you now are telling us that your very first date is tonight.
Can you say I live in Fantasy and already am thinking about the white picket fence and babies, can you say I am desperate to fall in love and I don't care if he isn't a good bet?
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reader, OhGetReal +, writes (12 February 2011):
I am going to give it one last shot, I honestly don't know why you came here for advice, you are hell bent on not listening to anything more rational, objective people are telling you about all the red flags in your situation, but let me break it down for you."My gut tells me to leave, but my analytical mind sees other possibilities"What this means, I am going to disregard my gift of fear which comes from my instincts, I am steeped in fantasy and see other possibilities that have not come to pass, and I am patting myself on the back for being "analytical"."I feel that if I do get hurt I will get over it".What this really means. I probably have never been hurt by a pathological man who is abusive so I don't know how damaged that I will become by this union. I again am steeped in fantasy land and I have a reckless disregard for my own safety."I knew his as a former colleague"So he must be OK simply because I know where he works, and all employers do complete background checks for criminal history, credit history and drug and alcohol screens, much like the FBI, so he has to be alright..yeah right."The relationship is in it's early days and things have quickly turned romantic" "Our first date is tonight" "He seems DESPERATE to make me fall for him, it's like a charm offensive, but I have enough insight for this to worry me, but I like him anyway."What this really means. He is not that INTO YOU, this is a HUGE RED FLAG WARNING that this is a sign of his pathology. He has an agenda to rush the relationship before you can figure out how bad he really has been in his past and that he has a hidden agenda, if he can bed you and get those endorphins warning, he knows you are a gonner and won't pay attention to any of the other warning bells going off in your head. You know this and you are hell bent on ignoring it because you have a reckless disregard for your own safety and you are desperate, perhaps to bed him.And one of the most immature, ridiculous nonsensical statement: " I plan to take things very slowly, which will be incredibly hard for me coz i don't normally 'do' slow. but i will challenge myself to do this rather than get caught up in a mad whirlwind. we can really talk to each other, and i know that everything i say to him is genuine (i cannot speak for him though)"What this says about you: I have a history of intense relationships that start out quickly and may burn out just as quickly. And we can really talk to each other, so I have mistakenly given him soul mate status because of our connection, but what I don't realize is that pathological men are excellent at mirroring what I say and give the illusion of being exactly what I want. What I say is genuine, but I don't know about him, so I am spoon feeding him all sorts of information about myself by being so open and emotionally bullemic that he will be given a recipe handed on a silver platter on how to manipulate and con me becacuse I see no value in holding anything back about myself from him since I give trust blindly....especially to people who I know where they work. The next nonsensical statement you made: "I feel as if (like me) he is looking for unconditional love and what i need to show him is that we should not push each other to the limit of patience in order to 'test' the love. which is something i admit i have done before and it just ruins everything. "What this really means: Because he is looking for unconditional love like a young child, it is my responsibility to show him by controlling things that he should not push me to test our love because I am gonna love him unconditionally. I have already made up my mind that I can overcome any pathological qualitites and defects he has because I owe him unconditional love. Again I am all powerfull and steeped in fantasy about life and love and believe in his and our potential more than I do the facts about this person's past which are real and right in front of me...I will not make a choice based on the facts but instead on fantasy and beliefs about unconditional love."I have asked him about counselling but he is reluctant as he says that he feels the 'system' failed him as a kid so he has no faith in it now. on the plus side, it was only his dad who was the bad parent. he has a great relationship with his mum and sisters"What this really means: You have an adult male who takes no responsibility for anything as the "system" has failed him so therefore finding a competent therapist won't help because HE would actually be expected to do the work not the therapist so that system won't work because he won't do the work or take any responsibility as an adult to work on his stuff. What happened to him in childhood was not his fault so therefore he has no further growing to do.It doesn't matter that he had one parent not both that was a drunk and abusive, he still experienced abuse and neglect and abandonment by the same sex parent whom he needed to show him how to become a man. More than likely he is emotionally stuck at the age he was in childhood when he experienced all that abuse, but you with all your unconditional love can overcome all this garbage and you don't deserve a grown up who works on his own stuff."when we speak about this again i will make him understand that although his dad controlled him when he was a kid, he is a grown up now and has to ultimately take responsibility for what he does from now on. ""i am not a believer in being able to fix someone just by loving them. i understand that some people can just end up abusing the love "What this really means: I am a controlling person, I will Make him Understand that he is an adult now and he will behave accordingly when I tell him he has to. I am not a believer in love being able to fix someone, but I think I am up for the challenge of control, I can "manage" him into being the kind of adult I need and want for a relationship, and damn he's just so HOT.Do you see how as an ADULT you are responsible for you very own love life by the people you choose to get involved with. You don't know how difficult it will be to get over the hurt you will undoubtedly experience from this involvement, you are lying to yourself on that one.I think you need to get into some therapy for all the things you are concerned about yourself. Don't look for a "corrective experience" by dating a total train wreck and thinking that if this will just work out this time then all will be right with me and my world. Therapy works, corrective experiences that never will be damage and destroy lives. It really is your choice and is not up to this one man.
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reader, Ordinary Woman +, writes (12 February 2011):
If your guts and instincts are giving you any kind of warning listen to them. Why is he in such a hurry?The very fact that you are on this site suggests that you are worried, maybe you would like this to work but you are also questioning whether it will. Why not be honest and tell him this and say that you would like to take it slow. You can proceed with caution and knowledge of the past, I think that it takes a lot to admit to some of the things that he has, but it is not an excuse to turn around and say well I told you I made it very clear and you knew right at the start what I was like.The past exists, there is no denying it, but what is more important is how he treats you now and how he makes you feel through this treatment.The bottom line is that he must treat you with respect, how does he make you feel? Are you spending time together enjoying activities during the day, have you been introduced to his friends, are you part of his social group meeting on a regular basis? Is he being reliable or avoiding people and places? Do you feel able to 'drop in to see him'? Does he do what he says he is going to do?I know that it is early days yet but no harm in bearing this in mind.There is no harm in asking around a bit about him, check out his story.
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reader, anonymous, writes (12 February 2011): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionthanks chocoholic, yeah my gut definitely says leave but my analytical mind sees other possibilities and i feel that if i do get hurt i will get over it. the relationship is very early days yet. i knew him casually for a while as a former colleague and is is only in the last couple of weeks that we have been in touch on the phone and things have quickly turned romantic. we have our first date tonight. he seems desperate to make me fall for him. its like a 'charm offensive' and i have enough sense, experience and insight for this to worry me. i like him though :(
i plan to take things very slowly, which will be incredibly hard for me coz i don't normally 'do' slow. but i will challenge myself to do this rather than get caught up in a mad whirlwind. we can really talk to each other, and i know that everything i say to him is genuine (i cannot speak for him though)
i feel as if (like me) he is looking for unconditional love and what i need to show him is that we should not push each other to the limit of patience in order to 'test' the love. which is something i admit i have done before and it just ruins everything.
i have asked him about counselling but he is reluctant as he says that he feels the 'system' failed him as a kid so he has no faith in it now. on the plus side, it was only his dad who was the bad parent. he has a great relationship with his mum and sisters
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reader, DakotaFleming +, writes (12 February 2011):
Run dont walk away from this man as fast as you can! He will bring you nothing but heartache and pain.Believe me Ive been there and done that!
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reader, chocoholicforever +, writes (12 February 2011):
"i could just leave him, part of me wants to because i feel i will not be good enough for him to not slip back into his old habits and that i may not be strong enough to accept his unhappy times, i am so scared. but the other part of me wants to stay because after the terrible start in life i do not see why i should just throw him on the 'scrap heap' "
You have a big heart and I can see that you care a lot about him.
But it sounds like you know in your gut that you don't want to get involved with him because it could be dangerous for your emotional health, and you are probably right. Listen to your gut instincts, after years of experience, if you learned from your past experiences, they are probably correct.
Whether or not he slips back into his old habits should not depend on how "good" you are. It's not your responsibility to be his reason to live healthily.
The reason you want to stay is because you feel he deserves a chance, because you identify with his issues since you have had a lot of the same issues.
But ask yourself - why do you think that not getting romantically involved with him is equivalent to "throwing him to the scrap heap"? The purpose of a romantic relationship isn't to save someone who can't function normally in life on their own. That would be more of a parent-child or caretaker-caregiver or therapist-client type of relationship. Not getting romantically involved with someone should not be the equivalent of abandoning a drowning person. If it is, then this is not going to be a healthy relationship for either of you.
Why not be there for him as a friend, support him as a friend, but don't get romantically involved at least not yet?
Why not both of you make an agreement to go to counseling - not couples counseling, but individual counseling and both of you work on your issues in parallel. Like how people have workout buddies, this would be similar.
Then maybe in the future when both of you are in a better and more stable place emotionally, you could then seriously come back to the idea of getting romantically involved with each other.
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reader, anonymous, writes (11 February 2011): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionthank you all very much for your answers. the answers are all very different to each other and the confusing thing is - is that i think i agree with all of them! that's what makes this so hard. i am 39 he is 37. i have suffered from bouts of depression and never been able to have a lasting relationship either because i always end up pushing the man away. i have had the same number of partners as him (he says - 30 something people) and i have also cheated in the past. we see so much of each other in ourselves; ranging from the very good common ground to these problem issues. we have agreed to be the best people we can be for each other.
i could just leave him, part of me wants to because i feel i will not be good enough for him to not slip back into his old habits and that i may not be strong enough to accept his unhappy times, i am so scared. but the other part of me wants to stay because after the terrible start in life i do not see why i should just throw him on the 'scrap heap'
i have trust issues and yet another part of me thinks that all the stuff we 'have in common' is just BS on his part as maybe he is a habitual womaniser who will say whatever it takes to get someone into bed. i wonder whether he is truthful when he says he has only slept with 30 women or if he is just saying it to claim yet more in common with me.
when we speak about this again i will make him understand that although his dad controlled him when he was a kid, he is a grown up now and has to ultimately take responsibility for what he does from now on.
i am not a believer in being able to fix someone just by loving them. i understand that some people can just end up abusing the love
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reader, anonymous, writes (11 February 2011): All my life I had been looking for something, and everywhere I turned someone tried to tell me what it was. I accepted their answers too, though they were often in contradiction and even self-contradictory. I was naïve. I was looking for myself and asking everyone except myself questions which I, and only I, could answer. It took me a long time and much painful boomeranging of my expectations to achieve a realization everyone else appears to have been born with: that I am nobody but myself.
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reader, anonymous, writes (11 February 2011): I think she should give him a chance.He has to believe in something and maybe it will be you.
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reader, lucylu31 +, writes (11 February 2011):
 If you have had a good upbringing,your family and you have always got on well with each other,i musty admit it is hard for you to understand fully.which is what he'll be feeling too,like you don't understand.My situation is very much like yours but i have been the one with the bad upbringing so i'll tell you this advice on the other side of the story.While i was going through depression,i had a boyfriend,he had a great family,always there for him,always going o holiday with each other and that made it really hard for me to cope with,because i felt like he didnt understand and that i was kind of isolated just because i had a bad upbringing...i didnt think it was fair that i had a bad past yet,it will still dragging on me for the future.However,considering this i have no idea how i would've got through it without him.He was always there for me when i needed him,calling me some night having long talks,i felt s bad just pouring my heart out to him but he just didnt seem to mind at all,he told me everything was going to be ok,and promised that he'd stay with me.And thats all you can do i suppose,it will be hard for you but all you have to think about is that if you love him you will do anything to support him,and think if you were in this situation,would he be there for youI hope everything works out,I really do,if you need any other advice about this or anything else just come and ask me,All the best xxx x x x
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reader, OhGetReal +, writes (11 February 2011):
You really have to start paying attention to red flags with men.He has demonstrated quite a few and he has told you who he is by his past upbringing, inability to have a lasting relationship and cheating.How old are you two? What makes you think that you are going to be any different than how his past relationships with women ended up. Take a look in the rear view mirror and you will clearly see your future or lack there of with this man.He is damaged, his behavior will prove that, his words mean nothing if his behavior doesn't match his words or intentions.You can't fix this, love is not a cure for psychological issues.My advice is to cut your losses and get out before you become as damaged as he is. He has learned abusive relationship skills because that is what he lived as a child.He need therapy, professional help and you can't be his therapist and his girlfriend, too.Go to saferelationshipsmagazine.com and read the Articles there and think about purchasing the e-books on how to spot dangerous men. He's in that book, trust me.
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reader, chocoholicforever +, writes (11 February 2011):
Just be aware up front, that you can't change or "fix" someone.It's not his fault that he has so much baggage. He deserves sympathy and patience and understanding. But as an adult he also needs to take responsibility for his actions, meaning, he needs to realize whenever his behavior negatively impacts other people and to not just hide behind the fact that this is who he is and how he got to be this way, but to seek to improve or manage his issues so that they don't negatively impact others around him. And realize that you, as the significant other, WILL bear the brunt of whatever negative impacts of his issues. Not so much his co-workers or friends or other family members, but you.The most you can do is to support and encourage him to seek help for working on his issues, and to stick with the program, and to offer support for times when there is back sliding and regression and hold him accountable to getting back to working on himself. Also be aware that there's a fine line between being patient and understanding of someone who has deep issues and loving someone despite their flaws, and tolerating it when they treat you poorly. You also should not make excuses for him. If you love him, you will want to see him become a strong and emotionally healthy and stable person. And that can't happen if you tolerate bad behavior and make excuses for it. Since you say you're scared, don't be. Just arm yourself with knowledge of what you may be getting into so that if red flags appear you can identify them early on and be proactive.Just some things to consider:There's a tendency for when people have serious baggage and get into new romantic relationships, to use their new partner or relationship as a crutch to stop working on themselves and just coast along letting their partner prop them up. This will eventually wear down the partner and cause resentment and other negative relationship-destroying effects. So just be aware of this so you can help him with his issues not by being a crutch but by encouraging him to work on himself and stick with it.Also many people believe in "unconditional love", I personally don't when it comes to marriages and intimate relationships, but maybe that's just me.. "Unconditoinal love" means you love someone no matter what they do to you, you decide you will love them and expect nothing in return. This is a fine concept if you are actually still getting something in return and the person you are unconditionally loving is not messed up and thus is treating you fairly well most of the time.... It becomes extremely difficult if the person you are loving is really messed up and mistreats you often as a result. It's even more difficult if this is a romantic relationship because such relationships are exclusive, i.e. you can't have more than one romantic partner at a time (ethically, at least) unlike the way you can have more than one friend, or more than one sibling so if one of them is messed up and you unconditionally love them it doesn't mess YOU up that bad because you still have other similar relationships that are less damaging and the other person isn't such a big part of your life. But for romantic relationships, you can only have one such person in your life so if that person is really messed up and you choose to unconditionally love them you could be setting yourself up to be abused. So just be aware of that so it doesn't happen to you. Since you are obviously a very caring and kindhearted person, and you are in a relationship with someone who has a lot of emotional baggage, just be careful that you don't fall into the trap of becoming co-dependent. (this is when a relationship becomes one-sided with one person feeling that they have to always be the savior of the other...it sounds romantic or noble like Mother Theresa-like, but in reality it doesn't actually help the partner with issues and can eventually destroy the "savior" partner as well).Ultimately, if he is actively working on his issues because he wants to be less emotionally damaged, there's potential for the relationship to be a happy and healthy one. But if he doesn't or refuses to see where problems exist, that would be a red flag that this relationship could get very turbulent and you might want to reassess if it's a good idea for you to be involved. sorry if I didn't really give any tips on how you can help him, instead I just gave you a bunch of warnings! But it's because I've seen so many times (and had experience) of how being in a relationship with someone who has a lot of unresolved issues, IF they are not working on them, can destroy the relationship and/or your emotional health as well, and I dont' want that to happen to you. good luck!
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