A
male
age
30-35,
*taraxia
writes:Hey folks, this post might be a bit long and unorganized so stick with me please.I'm 23 year old male virgin currently studying philosophy. As you can easily guess, my problem lies with women. I never really had any intimate contact with women, no kissing/sex etc.This results from several factors in my life and I'm not very sure which one had a bigger impact on me. My family was always kinda f'ed up, mom and dad divorced when I was young and always tried to influence me in non-subtle ways who I should choose to stay with (so that the other part would have no right to see me anymore). This problem got solved in a rather harsh manner, since my mother died when I was 13 as a consequence of her long lasting alcohol addiction. Sadly she is not the only one on her side of the family tree ending like this, both of her parents and some of her grandparents (as far as I remember her telling me) were alcohol addicts and died alone because of that. After her death I lived with my dad, who grew more possessive of me. He always cared for me and loved me, but the older I became I had the feeling he was just using me in order not to feel lonely. When I wanted to go out with friends and do other social stuff he prohibited me from doing so, telling me I had to be there from him and don't do risky stuff. I wanted to run away from home when I was a teenager, but never really found the courage to do so, him being the only close family member I had (my older half-brother isn't any better, he cheated me out of my part of our mothers inheritance after her death and never bothered to give it back to me/contact me) My dad has been unemployed for a long time now and since he doesn't take care of himself, his health is steadily worsening. When I wanted to leave him and move into another town in order to study, he threatened me with suicide. I still went through with it and now live a relatively comfortable life as a student.It may sound a bit strange to say this, but even though my whole family (not including my grandparents, who are really awesome and are supportive of me) was kind of a disappointment in hindsight, I think I'm doing fine psychologically. I have always been introverted (indeed heavily so) and rather steered towards a rational and non-emotional personality. This doesn't mean I don't feel anythingbut that I'm able to control my feelings with my thoughts.(For example, I had a depression last year for a few weeks. I felt absolutely terrible, but at the same time I knew my whole way of feeling and thinking about the world and myself was totally inaccurate, so I tried my best not do grow lethargic, follow my usual schedule, eat healthy, do sports, etc. and managed to knock it out) This helped me in a lot of tough spots as you can imagine, since I very often felt depressed and sad in my teenager years with no one really to turn to.I regard my introversion as a strong character trait that has helped me keep stable my psychological well being. However I feel that this and other things are holding me back now at living a happy life and having a relationship with a girl. I'm not really outgoing and much open to other people, I try to do so more often but I don't really get the results I want. I also dislike small talk and whenever I try to fit into usual socializing routines I realize how unnatural it feels to me. I also don't drink a lot of alcohol if any, seeing my mothers addiction I feel repulsed by alcohol and people who drink a lot of it (though I don't judge them for it, I know its just me feeling this way given my past experiences).I also notice how my idea of "love" is rather unmanly given societys standards for guys. I've only been in love once in my life with a girl I spend a bit of time when I was younger. I don't really get emotional for women just because of their looks and the only reason I fell in love with her only after several months because I liked her upbeat, extroverted personality (which was totally the opposite of mine). Nothing grew out of it given my problems at home and my other issues and we lost contact later on.My ideal of love would be to meet someone who I first can build a strong emotional bond with before going into a relationship. I call this "unmanly" since men are usually supposed to be independent and put their sexual urges before any emotional dependencies. And while I try to be as strong and independent as I can, I'm sick of having no way to express my cravings for intimacy, personal and sexual. Many might call my attitude "needy", but if I were to start a relationship with a woman, I can't help but feel that she should first understand my emotional needs and the shit I've been through. This doesn't mean burdening her with trying to solve any of my problems, but just respecting me way I am with the experiences I have made.I was seriously thinking today of having sex with an escort service and later threw the idea out of the window since I know that it won't help me become happier in the long run. I feel like shit for even having had the idea. I also want to tell myself I deserve better than this.I know people should not put relationships as their first priority in their lifes, but I finally want to make this experience in my life and want to make a controlled effort to get it done. I don't even know what a healthy relationship would look like, seeing how even in my own family I could never observe any such thing.Sorry if this post was a bit long, but I hope it'll make you understand a bit better where I come from.How can I reconcile my idea of love with reality?How can an introvert who has 0 experience with women finally get his act together?Any useful advice is welcome.
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Fancy yourself as an agony aunt? Add your answer to this question! A
female
reader, chigirl  +, writes (26 August 2013):
 How to ask someone out successfully? The only answer to that is to keep asking until someone says yes. With the experience of rejection you learn the tricks and how to charm your way in. But why would you ask someone out directly, when you first want to befriend them and know them for a good time before moving on to romance? You don't need advice on how to ask women out, you need to get to know women and befriend them, talk to them about your experiences. That's what you need to do now, not ask them out. Dating them comes second. And when the time comes, you will move on to it without so much worrying, because you will feel more comfortable about it.
If you want to be more hands on than my boyfriend (I highly encourage you to!) then be direct, like you said yourself you are. Just ask them out. It's not any more difficult or easy than that. Ask them if they'd like to have coffee with you, or try another way to ask them. What works depends on who they are, what culture they are from, how they perceive you and so on and so on. There is no trick to this, or certain steps to take, it's something you can only learn from experience.
But if you have a female friend already, tell her about your experiences and connect with her on a deeper level. Get to know her well, and then if you still like her... ask her to have coffee with you sometimes.
A
female
reader, janniepeg  +, writes (26 August 2013):
 Love is both a conscious act and a feeling.
Let's say an old couple dry up on all areas, passion, sex and all is left is possessions, chores and grown up children. They decide to stay because it's the right thing to do. They promised to grow old together. People call that love.
Puppy love, student teacher love, extra marital affairs. Love that could never be. People call that love. The butterfly feeling.
You need the butterfly feeling at first then you need the perserverance at the end.
If you want to know if there are girls who want to start things slow, the answer is yes. If there are more girls like Chigirl, yes, but where to find them.
I think your personality shapes how you feel about dating. There are people with rotten childhood and they are impulsive and reckless with everything. Introverts take everything inside. Extroverts let the world know about them.
I am suggesting losing virginity because I feel that you are using that as a reason to not get out and be known. People do go to nude beaches to get intimate with others.
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A
male
reader, Ataraxia +, writes (26 August 2013):
Ataraxia is verified as being by the original poster of the questionFirst of all, thanks to everyone who replied to my question :)
I will reply to janniepeg, anonymous, Wiseowle and Chigirl in the order I just mentioned. I want to give proper feedback so this will probably another long ass post ;)
Janniepeg:
Yours is a rather confusing post, I have to admit.
Yes, usually I'm analytical about stuff, but if I'm comfortable about people overthinking easily turns itself off.
The way you describe it love is a conscious act, and yet isn't it an unexplainable feeling of being drawn to someone else? I don't think the leap of faith occurs when someone decides to love (I highly doubt thats possible to decide) but when he/she decides to act on it. Most women here in Germany and at my age don't want to have a kid asap, so I don't think their biological timeline has any influence on that either. I never said that everything will go perfect if I take things slow, I just want the way the relationship develops to be appropriate to my personal feelings.
A girl may not be able to completely understand me (hell , can we even properly understand ourselves, lest anyone else for that matter?) but I think it's reasonable to expect that other people can show compassion and try to understand
each other. I felt very wary of whether I should write about my childhood and teenager years here. I don't want to blame everything on my childhood and/or constantly dwell on it (neither in front of you agony aunts not in front of anyone else) and yet I think my past experiences have influences the way I think and feel about romantic love and the expecations that go along with them.
And since people process things differently depending on their personality, I doubt that having a relationship with someone who has had similiar experiences would necessarily be more successful.
The nude beach advice I will quite frankly not take seriously. Do you really think nude beaches are a fountain of free sex?
Anonymous female reader:
I would like to hear experiences from persons who think they are similiar to me (given that I think my family is extremely f***ed up by normal standards).
I can get warm with people, it just doesn'T happen very often that I feel like I'm on the same wavelength with someone else.
WiseowlE:
I'm very grateful that you took the time to write sich a long post. There is a lot of what I feel to be true and valuable advice, but at the same time some things that don't relate to my problem or are just to general.
I don't have a super idealized vision of love, I know good enough from watching friends and reading posts here that there is not clear cut path to happiness or love. I don't think though that there is a necessary contradiction between not believing in perfect love and still being certain that you can have your emotional needs satisfied by your partner.
I also don't think my introversion is something I can really change besides acting more extroverted. In that case I would always have to think what an extrovert would so if I were one , and isn't overthinking not what I'm precisely supposed to avoid?
Of course I also refrain from judging people people they like to do drugs and party. It just happens that I dislike alcohol and parties because of verious reasons. I plan to do more stuff with other people like sports, I will have to see how that one works out.
In the end though I doubt I can really change my personality that much, I do get together that are rowdy and wild as you describe, but in no way did that really rub off on me. I'm also not completely quite in conversations or anything like that, but I can easily spend some days alone or don't say a lot when I'm with friends and feel okay with it. The way I feel enjoyment just does not go together with the usual life style of partying.
I rather prefer reading, finding out new and interesting perspectives on things, abstract concepts or stuff where I can steadily improve, like playing basketball, learning japanese or doing political work helping low wage employees fight for their rights. My idea of happiness looks like improving myself, learning about interesting thoughts and concepts and improving the world around me. You may call me "inhibited", but I don't feel like I have a wild side in me
that could be released by doing parties and other wild stuff.
As for my idea of love, as I have mentioned I don't really have a specific fixed one nor do I feel that it would be reasonable to desperately cling to to one. All that I really want is to get my potential partner better and for her to have the desire to know me better before we hit it off.
I would like to reply further to your post, but you wrote so much advice that is very general and could be given to almost any one that I find some difficulty in replying to it.
Chigirl:
I was actually hoping you would reply, I saw some of your other posts and you seem to be a reasonable, lovely person.
I should have put "unmanly" in quotes, I also don' think there is a defined paradigm you have to follow as a man.
I definitely get what you are saying and believe that there is some sort of hardwired personality-frame in which you process experiences. Which, of course, can change and be bent to a certain degree.
As i mentioned above, I also do not wish to blame everything on my childhood and I don't constantly make up scenarios in my head what life could have been like were it not for x,y,z, etc.. I did however often feel very down in my youth because of these events and think they did change the way i have expectations from love. I also never found the idea of having a girlfriend realistic back then, since I imagined there be too big a problem between enjoying life with her and dealing with my obsessive father, whom I felt obliged to.
I just hoped it would give the aunts here a better insight as to where I come from.
As for sharing my story with a female friend, I actually know a lovely theatre actress who I guess could talk about it. It's just a question of being alone with her and, well... pushing myself to actually bring the topic up. I admit the thought of actually doing so makes me really feel unwell, probably only because of the judgement that I could receive.
I guess what I really want from a girlfriend is certainty that she can show compassion and can accept me even knowing that I had a shitty past and no girlfriend before (which, I suppose, will turn many people off in an instant, since it does not represent the usual image of being "sexy").
Could you also give a bit more specific dating advice? Maybe I'm similiar to your boyfriend but I really want to take this into my own hands and have some progress. I'm more the direct type and would just like ask some women I don't know out directly, but to me it always seems as if you always have to be so very roundabout about wanting to date someone, especially in places where meeting new people is secondary to their primary functions, like the university. Any advice on how to do this successfully?
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A
female
reader, chigirl +, writes (25 August 2013):
Let me start by saying that it is good you stay away from alcohol. People with a family-history of alcohol-abuse need to be more careful than others. Addiction runs in the family, in your genes. You are far more likely to get addicted than others. So it is good that you stay away from it, or if you drink be careful about not over-doing it.
Second, you're neither needy or unmanly. Yes, popular culture dictates that men should have no feelings and only want sex, non stop, but we both know that's just popular culture. Not reality. You remind me very much of my boyfriend, in fact. Only difference is that while you blame your life experiences for your current situation, my boyfriends parents are still together, married, and happy. He has a good, although distant relationship with his older siblings. He's not had to deal with the difficulties you've had to deal with. Yet he was/is still the same as you. So, I believe it has far more to do with you as a person, and the way you were born, than it has to do with your life experiences. That means, you should accept how you are as part of who you are, rather than think of it as a consequence. In either way, you are who you are, and you have reacted to your experiences in a very unique manner because of who you are. It's not the experience that shapes you, it's you who overcome the experience because of these qualities you hold. Does that make sense to you?
I'd like you to think of your qualities as something good, your strong side. Don't think of them as something negative that holds you back, or prevents you from anything.
"I know people should not put relationships as their first priority in their lifes"
Throw that thought out, tons of people prioritize their relationships, and if you want a long lasting one you do have to put it first. If it's what you want then there is nothing wrong with putting it first. In fact, studies show you live longer and have more happiness when you have a partner. So there is nothing wrong in wanting this, or pursuing it, or putting it first.
Your idea of love is not unrealistic at all. It's actually a very good and solid foundation for a great and loving relationship. Your idea of love is what most people want. So stick to it.
My best advise to you? Look, you want a woman to get to know you and your history, and be good friends, before you enter into a romantic relationship. In order for this to happen you need to befriend a woman, and be honest with her about your past. Actually tell someone... And I think this is the most scary part for you, opening up to someone you don't know yet if you can trust. While some people want to share these things only after they've been in a relationship, you want to share these things prior to a relationship. Which is perfectly fine. But that also means you have to open up to a lot of women, and share your story, and risk pouring your heart out to someone who you might not end up being in a relationship with.
However, I have found that by sharing something personal you become veeeeery interesting and attractive to the other person. It makes them feel special. And you will also come to find that most others have a story to tell, something they want to get off their chest. And they find it so much easier, and a relief, if you start opening up to them. Because then they can open up to, and it lifts the weight off their shoulders. And it makes them feel connected with you, close to you, and it makes them want you to stick around. However there are occasions when they will drift away too, and you wont speak to them again. It happens. But so what? You will not take harm from opening up, it's just scary at first, that's all. Just remember to share only bits at first, and wait with sharing the things that involve living people. I say this because the ones you share with might just end up knowing your father or brother, and you don't want people to know things that involve others until you're sure they will keep it private. But the things that will only affect you, should the persons spread the word, are perfectly fine to share.
For example, I share the story about my friend who committed suicide at 15, and about my own history of the time with a personality disorder. I do not share the stories about my father and how he hit me when I was a child, and how he is mentally unstable, and how he too has threatened suicide (at least not with everyone).
I want to end this lengthy answer by telling you a bit more about my boyfriend. He describes himself with the exact same words as you do. Introvert, hates small talk, doesn't drink alcohol, doesn't go out much, doesn't like parties or night clubs. Wanted a long friendship before any romance, was only ever in love once before me, doesn't feel much for anyone or anything in the world (a periodic emotional numbness) etc. etc. Exactly the same words. He was a virgin at your age, never kissed a girl (except for a few pecks as a child). He doesn't like physical contact, he'd never let any girls near him... Well, I knew him for 8 years, so I know a lot about how he rejected girls. He wasn't even aware of it, he was dead sure no woman wanted him (lack of self esteem perhaps to blame?). And he rarely found any woman to be remotely interesting, or attractive. Yes, he was hard to get, just like you. And just like him, you probably have many women who would love nothing more than to be your girl, you just aren't seeing with your eyes open.
Me and my boyfriend became a couple only after months and weeks (and 8 years of friendship) of me pursuing him intensely. I'm surprised he allowed me near him, but he took a chance I guess. He took a leap of faith, he had known me long enough to feel a bit comfortable. And, most importantly, I shared my story.. my intimate and personal story. Like I said, sharing draws people to you. Makes them feel safe, because you put your trust in them. I shared, he listened. I confessed my feelings for him, and he had the courage (finally) to take a chance at love.
You do the same now. Take a leap of faith and take a chance at love. It's right out there, withing your reach. Don't hold yourself back.
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A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (25 August 2013): You could be my male counterpart, give it or take a few variations here and there. Anyways, I say you think too much of it when it comes social bonds. Just do what you feel is best. It is true that things come naturally but if you have to think on them then you're doomed. If you have to start somewhere then begin interacting with people of your same interest.
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (25 August 2013): Too often people have an idealized perception of love.
We in the U.S. have been over-influenced by Hollywood, soap operas, the media, and the movies.
People mimic and assimilate the media into our culture, and adopt ridiculous illusions of what they think love is.
They form unrealistic notions, and lose proper perspective.
Many people aren't sure how to deal with love, once they've found it.
They add too much drama, become disillusioned, or develop insecurities; because they think love should be like a fairytale. They think there are roles to play, and they have to follow some sort of script. They try to give a Hollywood-style performance. That is not reality.
If you grew up in a dysfunctional family, you couldn't have learned by example. You were deprived of what most families take for granted.
I don't feel sorry for you at all. I am impressed by your resilience, and how well-adjusted you are; considering your life-experiences. You do need some work, before you get too seriously involved in a committed relationship.
Our parents are our primary and closest example of how to form, and maintain, a relationship. They make the strongest impressions on us; where love is concerned.
That's how most of us actually develop the healthiest and most realistic concepts of love, and loving. Some families look better from the outside; then they actually are on the inside. People are good at creating false-images for the public's view. It's never as perfect as it seems.
So I don't judge by comparison, when I fall for someone. I consider what I have unique; although the same rules apply.
It's common-sense that you want to be treated well by everyone; particularly people you are attracted to. Sometimes we have no choice, but to learn by trial and error. Don't dismiss what you feel to be right for you.
It takes practice. Often folks come from loving households and still don't have a clue.
They get influenced by the wrong people in their lives, they may have traumatic experiences, and make bad choices. They may somehow become selfish. They may become cynical or bitter; when things don't always go their way.
Don't expect any relationship to be perfect; or even close, just because you've formulated a plan.
In your case, you will have to rely on your instincts and better judgement.
Your ideal of love is irrelevant; if you don't know how to be a mature and responsible man first.
You say that you are introverted, and that has worked for you. Perhaps under certain circumstances; it may work to your benefit only to some extent.
It doesn't work when you want to make friends, and/or meet eligible women for dating; or to establish committed relationships.
You have to be outgoing, available, and receptive.
You shouldn't rush to judgment like you indicated in your post.
This means you have to remember, that some of the things you may not like about other people; may have originated from some of the same experiences you have had.
You don't have to accept criminal or vile behavior; but you should be open-minded and tolerant around all types of people. They all have something to teach you about life;
and they may enrich your future life-experience in many ways.
If they like to party hardy and get tipsy; it has nothing to do with the people you once knew. Don't project harsh judgement on them. Lest they should judge you for your past and human weaknesses.
Mingling with people of common interests will usually expand your social circle. Giving you access to women you may not normally come in contact with. So you have to open up. Don't be a wallflower.
Attending college is how many of us adapt to various cultures and ethnic groups. We also hone our social skills; and learn how to interact with a vast selection of personalities. That comes in handy throughout life.
We're tossed together; so we learn more about a wide spectrum of cultures. That exposure will help you spend more time with women socially; and help you gain confidence.
You'll grow, and form a well-informed and positive outlook. Your approach to finding love, and expressing love, will be based on experience and that broad exposure to people.
If you isolate yourself, you will always be socially awkward.
Sometimes rowdy people are good for us. They teach us how to just have fun, loosen up, and come out of our shells.
You develop a sense of humor, which is attractive to women.
You learn how not to be too inhibited to enjoy life.
You should excuse even those people you feel drink too much.
Don't judge their occasional over-indulgence as alcoholism. It's not right, but it's typical rebellious behavior of young people away from parental-rules for the first time. Hangovers are their just punishment. They shall learn.
You live vicariously through their antics, and you should reserve judgement; because they know how to live. They are celebrating their youth, in spite of the obstacles and mishaps in their lives. We know there are some bad exceptions. It doesn't work for you. That's about you.
These people open doors for you socially, and that's how you get acquainted with different women, offering a variety of personalities and types. You don't know what you really like, if only know one type.
You can't just walk up to someone and instantly fall in love anyway. That's total bullshit. You may have to meet 50 women before you get one spark. A few may reject you. You may reject a few. Love is that unpredictable.
You may be taken and impressed by someone immediately; but love has to develop between people. You have to date and share your time with an assortment of types, to know what kind of woman is compatible to your own personality.
They will teach you things. They will guide you, and show you how to properly treat a lady. They will also bring out the best in you as a man, and a person. You'll learn how to please a woman, from women. You can't live in a vacuum. You can't love a woman, if you don't know anything about them.
You have to be approachable and patient. You don't always have to carry your past like a cross. There are times you can put that aside, and enjoy being with a girl; without unloading your baggage on her. You may only know her a few days or weeks. Or just a few minutes, if you freak her out.
Sometimes they really don't want to know. You will not form committed relationships with every nice girl you meet, who likes you. So revealing every gory detail of your childhood is not always necessary. Save it until you meet someone who actually wants to know your past. They should know you well enough to deal with what they hear.
I don't really know what your idea of love is; but it isn't something that you can just summon up at will. You will not always find a woman on the same page philosophically; but she may adore you all the same.
Love is an emotional process that occurs within us, and it starts from an initial attraction to another person. We often use the L-word prematurely; or make a misdiagnosis.
People usually mistake attraction for love. They also mistake lust. Just because certain people are unexpectedly nice; they attach feelings. That isn't love. They are needy, and crave approval and acceptance so badly.
So attachment may be formed out of desperation.
Women might not match your mind's prototype, or fit into molds designed by our imaginations. So you'll have to take time to get to know them, just by being around them.
Start by just appreciating them for who they are. Just be yourself, and allow attraction to develop naturally. Don't form an attachment, until you establish their compatibility with your own personality. You may only have a crush or infatuation. So be careful.
Perhaps this babble makes no sense to you. Hopefully it does.
Don't expect women to cure or absorb your weaknesses; or accept your emotional problems. It doesn't mean they love you if they do. It could mean they pity you.
You have must fix your major malfunctions before you subject people to your emotional ills.
Correct your social flaws, and the awkwardness that turn people off.
Don't be ashamed of your past; but don't expect that everyone who cares for you will really want to know every detail. Reveal things over time; so you will not be prejudged. Everyone doesn't turn out so well. You're still a work in progress. That's why you wrote your post.
Simply treating others as you want to be treated works every time. That attracts women for sure.
Being kind, thoughtful, strong, supportive, and generous goes a heck of a long way. So overly-dramatic or highly emotional displays, fall into the category of "weird."
Introspection helps us to see our own flaws, and it allows us to tweak them; before we get involved in the lives of other people. Seeking the objective opinion of our closest friends helps immensely.
Make no mistake, that informing a woman of your unhappy childhood doesn't excuse you from the responsibility of treating her well; or behaving like a sane individual.
It doesn't mean she has to accept those traits she finds unacceptable. Some good women will avoid you, if they are uncomfortable with your sob story. They will assume you may be potentially abusive. They may reject you for it. They have a right to. It may be based on past experience.
So keep working on yourself. So you will develop confidence. Thereby boosting your self-esteem.
You will be appreciated for the man you are now. You are no longer a victim of your past. If it affects how you behave toward women; then give your self time to fix it, before you pursue love.
You may need to experience a few trial relationships before you find the one that works. So be patient. Don't be too eager. Love is also evasive. It finds you.
You should date for fun, and to enjoy the company of females. You are being much too cerebral about something
that should come natural. It is wired within us. You can't create a logical or theoretical approach to being in love.
You must develop charm, and be able to relax around women. Otherwise, they'll feel creeped-out.
Time, experience, and maturity will help you to develop the tools to distinguish unrealistic perceptions about love, and how to develop real and lasting relationships.
We are all in training, so don't feel you're alone in that respect. It's a learn as you go process, and we have a life-time to correct all the mistakes made along the way.
If you're sensitive; and of a gentle nature, don't change that. Embrace it, and develop it; so that it will enrich and reinforce whatever bonds you form in friendship; or in committed romantic unions you form with women.
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A
female
reader, janniepeg +, writes (25 August 2013):
Philosophers have a habit of overthinking things. With your cautious attitude I can understand why there is no progress in your dating life. To love, one needs to let go and take a leap of faith. Especially for women, men need to act fast because their biological timeline means that they can't afford to waste time. I think that's the reality you are talking about. Starting things slow does not necessarily mean the relationship will be successful, it just means that if anything goes wrong you don't blame yourself too much.
A girl who did not grow up with trauma won't understand you. She will think, "Oh so everything is because of the past? Everything is related to mom's death and everything conflict in the relationship is related to mom's death?" You may be more compatible with someone who's had problems with alcoholism in the family, who's also very wary of relationships.
You don't have to go to a prostitute. Go to a nude beach and look for some older single lady to teach you a thing or two. You need to associate sex and female with some pleasant thoughts.
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