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Are men responsible or women for the fact that women don't look inside themselves for true integrity anymore?

Tagged as: Big Questions, Pornography

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Question - (27 June 2011)

15 Answers - (Newest, 13 July 2011)

A male age , anonymous writes:

I want some female feedback. I see a lot of women freaking out about their guys interest in porn. I like porn. And if i had a partner I'm sure she would hate it as I would if she liked porn. I tend to like soft porn and i don't get an erection. I hope thats not too much information. While I love to view women's physical assets and stand in awe of the beauty that is more acute than any artwork I am concerned that women are now so physically obsessed that they have left their mental and emotional integrity far behind. Are men responsible or women for the fact that women don't look inside themselves for true integrity anymore?

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A reader, anonymous, writes (13 July 2011):

i do feel there are some women who meet the OP's point of view. some women just cant stand porn!

to try to see it from a females point of view, when a guy can look at a porn star 10 times longer than he can the girl he is with, it is a little hurtful. it would be like a girl enjoying her monster-size dildo more than she does his little thingy, regardless of how great the relationship is, you just cant ever be the best orgasm for her.. it would possibly still bother you, even if she said she still loved you, its an ego thing! the thing is, alot of women want to be the prettiest, just like a lot of men want to be the best in bed.. the number of women we are compared to is 1000000 times more then the number of men that men are compared to.. as far as the way women acting different, first were labled too sensitive and emotional.. and now more women are focusing on the physical.. and now they're labeled to worried about that (all the way up to plastic surgeries ect... )

some women aim to please in areas that guys are just unpleasable in!

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A male reader, olderthandirt +, writes (30 June 2011):

OK, I don't agree with your premise but I think I see where you are going with the thought process. It is entirely posible that we all have lost that ability to self-regulate and look for respect within due to the foibles of society in general. If we are honest, we see the moraes of our society crumbling and integrety on the decline. But as the pop song goes,"it's a climb" hang in there,there's always hope

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A reader, anonymous, writes (28 June 2011):

OP being unlucky in love doesn't mean there is something wrong with women or men. It just means it hasn't happened yet.

Instead of looking for flaws in women, society or the single guys you know. Have a look at yourself, how you're approaching dating and what may be going wrong.

Perhaps you have too high standards or perhaps your view of women is tainting your experience by giving you unrealistic expectations.

Look, getting bitter because you've been unsuccessful is not going to do you any favours. Dating is not a serious thing it's a bit of fun, it's an addition to life not a prerequisite for happiness. I don't know why people take dating so seriously as to become disillusioned by lots of failure in it. It really isn't that big of a deal.

But yeah, your view of women is strange OP, it's not about integrity and it's not about beauty. I think you've just lumped all women into this nice neat little category, in a sense blaming them for your own failures. If it hasn't been working then women just are messed up right? Wrong. OP if something is not working in your life then you're doing it wrong.

Time to change your attitude about this whole thing and lighten up a bit. If you want some insight into what you're doing wrong then have a look at how the women here reacted to your question. That kind of attitude makes women combative and defensive. You're not going to find many women, especially at your age, willing to entertain a guy who thinks that way because it's the opposite of fun.

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A female reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (28 June 2011):

What you're saying is that you wouldn't date the female equivalent of yourself. Ah.

So this is less about 'female integrity' (which still hasn't been defined by you) and more about your own insecurity/discomfort/conflict with the thought that a woman still has eyes and will look at other men. Maybe you need to expand your dating pool to the blind?

We're not some alien species, you know. Women are more like men than you seem to realize. We have eyes, and ears, and brains, and feelings and desires, just as you do. I know a lot is made about the differences but women and men, for the most part, want to achieve a mutually satisfying and rewarding romantic and sexual relationship with someone. Perhaps working on developing a bit of empathy with the women you interact with will help you in the dating game.

Right now, the glaring double standards and rampant insecurity probably overshadow your avowed love of women, in the eyes of potential dating partners. They're probably picking up on the cognitive dissonance you're experiencing and are saying, in so many words, 'when you've worked it out, get back to us. In the meantime, um, no thank you.'

Here's something to ponder on, if you're trying to date women in their 50s (coming from a woman right at the start of that particular decade). Our bodies are changing. Gravity is happening. So is menopause, which means there's a reset of hormones. Most of the women I know at this age are more confident and secure in themselves, though many are aware of the aging process. I'm less tolerant of B.S. now, and more inclined to nurture myself than in the past. Many women have been caretakers of others (children and husbands and parents) for so many years and now is the time that they get to put themselves first. They get to be a bit selfish for the first time in decades.

Anyway, I'm running out of time to write a long reply, so I'll try to wrap it up.

Tackle your insecurity/discomfort/dissonant thinking as a priority, if you sincerely want to establish a mutually respectful and satisfying romantic relationship with someone. That's the root of your dating problem, I think. You can blame that nebulous entity known as 'society,' or other men, or women all you want for the dating 'system,' but ultimately, you are responsible for your own feelings and choices.

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A reader, anonymous, writes (28 June 2011):

This is verified as being by the original poster of the question

hey Annalisa I agree with what you say. men too a large extent just care about the basics and i have noticed that women are more critical of each other than men are of them. But on the other hand even at my age there are lots of men who are unkind to women. I have been trying to date unsucessfully for a year now and I also see a problem on the other side. People in their fifties dating - the men seem to be determinedly single and the women seem to be looking for love which they're not going to find with the single men I've met. there's something wrong with the system and once again I would probably blame society. Oh well I'm in no hurry.

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A reader, anonymous, writes (28 June 2011):

This is verified as being by the original poster of the question

ok, there's a bit of a misunderstanding about a couple of things. Firstly I like to view a womans body as a work of art rather than a sexual tool and I love to look at her body from different aspects to admire the art. In my view it is quite a compliment. All women are beautiful when seen from the right point of view. I am crazy about women. The other thing is my jealousy when my woman looks at other men. It's only jealousy and although hurtful it is not the end of reason. The bottom line is I need to be with a real woman for sexual pleasure even though I can appreciate them from a distance.

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A male reader, Odds +, writes (28 June 2011):

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So, you like porn - that's alright. But you don't like women to watch porn - that's more than a bit unfair. You admire physical beauty like artwork - that's great. But you think women are too obsessed with their physical beauty...

I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time following what you're getting at with this, so I'll just skip that and go right to your question about integrity. Either reword the question or reconsider your own values for their consistency, depending on what you meant.

Society at large isn't to blame - "society" is just the collective momentum of individuals' social approval and condemnation. It begins and ends with each individual unwilling to risk social condemnation, or imindlessly seeking social approval. "Society" is just a nice, victimless scapegoat for our own actions. Even ideologies I strongly disagree with are not to blame for their effects; rather, each individual accepting and perpetuating it is.

Social pressure is strong, but part of being an adult is standing by your moral and ethical convictions in the place of dirty looks and nasty words. That's why it's fruitless to blame society for failing to reward integrity - it may be true, but the choice ultimately comes down to each individual's failure to maintain integrity in the face of hardship, or to reward integrity in others.

Now, you can still generalize when you're talking about, say, behavior or attitudes. You wouldn't get very far in life if you couldn't say "Women express emotions more than men" just because *some* women express emotions less than *some* men. But laying blame at the feet of an entire genetic group seems a bit too much.

It's not men - you're talking about women, here, and each individual is responsible for their own behavior. At the same time, it's not "women" as a group, it's each individual woman who is responsible for her own self. And while I've known some crazy, honorless women, I've also know my fair share of decent ones. Even had the great fortune of dating a few. Each individual's failing is theirs, and theirs alone, regardless of circumstances.

Don't get me wrong - there are plenty of things that frustrate and annoy me about women in general. A lot of individuals seem to have made some bad choices. The difference being that women's choices affect my dating life significantly more than men's choices, and I try to keep that in mind when I get annoyed - both genders are hardly free of issues. But it's still important to pay attention to every woman I meet, to watch for signs that she doesn't match the normal generalizations.

It's not even related to having the right set of values. For instance, I strongly disagree with most of the things Person12345 or chigirl seem to believe on this site, but I'd never be able to accuse them of a lack of integrity or conviction (unless I'm all worked up in an argument, but that'd be my failing, not theirs). I'd say you either aren't looking at the right women for integrity, or your definition of "integrity" is not consistent enough to apply to any normal, flawed human being.

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A female reader, person12345 +, writes (28 June 2011):

Wait you like porn and look at it, but wouldn't be OK with your girlfriend looking at it? Also I'm reading over this question where you basically state that you are physically obsessed with unrealistically beautiful women and then condemn women for also being physically obsessed. I wouldn't say it's "men" as a general term responsible, it's a societal problem. But with men looking at computer-altered unreally beautiful women like in "soft" porn and loving the way they look, how are women supposed to feel? Many women, consciously or not, feel like they have to compete.

They are taught that beauty is their only asset and both men and women are told that to be beautiful as a woman is to be at an unattainable level. Even the models and actresses don't really look like that. Even children's toys for women often have to do with makeovers and making themselves beautiful. So it should come as no surprise that many women are raised to be obsessed with trying to be Barbie and Disney cartoon beautiful

It was mentioned below that most women don't have a problem with porn, which actually isn't true. The numbers are that around 55% of women don't want porn in their relationships (the lowest reliable number meaning not the Cosmo quiz I've found for the US, UK, and Australia and I've seen numbers as high as 75%), 25% consider it flat-out cheating, and a large portion of the other 45% either still feel hurt or change to not wanting it in their relationships when faced with the actual reality of what most men watch. Between 25-30% of women watch porn.

You say women have trouble understanding that porn women are fantasy, but it's porn users who fail to understand that it ISN'T fantasy. Not even close. Everything you see happened to a REAL woman somewhere. It is not like acting in a movie, because she's really being penetrated, really being exposed to dangerous fluids, really being subjected to things that could cause serious physical harm (and they do often, as the average lifespan of a woman in porn is only 3 months due to the physical toll). Try telling a woman who with a distended rectum from doing porn that porn is fantasy. Try telling the many women who were on drugs or drunk in order to do porn that porn is fantasy. Try telling a woman with eye gonorrhea from too many facials that porn is just fantasy. Try telling the women who contracted STDs from the fact that fewer than 5% of all films use condoms that porn is fantasy. I could go on. It's not women who don't understand, it's porn users who fail to face the reality of the situation that porn ISN'T fantasy. Those are real women and what you see really happened.

Cerberus is right on, you are the one who seems to be having trouble. The fact that you are unable to see inner integrity is not a problem with women, but your personal view of women.

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A female reader, RedAthena +, writes (27 June 2011):

I see a mixed and complex question here-so I have reworded it, please clarify if I have not understood the question well..

Porn in relation to personal integrity-have women become so self obessed with looks, have they lost their personal integrity and are men responsible for that loss?

I think men and women view porn differently. The male and female brain view and value porn differently and I think it is up to each gender to speak up on what porn means to them individually.

I think in general SOCIETY (regardless of gender) has become so obessed with the value of looks that society as a whole has lost the real integrity and value of a person. Look at the media! Good looking people in general are viewed as more important, smarter, more desirable.

No one wants to feel undesirable, unworthy or unwanted. We are genetically wired to mate and procreate. ALL animal species have pre-programming to want to be desirable to the opposite sex so we can achieve mating/procreating the species. We are gentically dispositioned to be attracted to the strongest and healthiest mates. Those traits suggest a stronger gene pool to pass on to our offspring.

While animal species tend to go unchanged in the mating rituals, humans keep adapting and morphing their sexual rites. Humans are vastly different that we have complex emotions that go with our sexuality. So, now our minds come into play about what is most desirable in a mate.

Body image depends on your culutral upbringing. If society accepts a big bone thru the nose as the epitome of sexuality, then you better believe all the women in the tribe are going to get the biggest bone they can find to be acceptable. The one that goes boneless is going to be excluded from desirability.

If the tribe accepts that perfect, perky cleavage is the most desirable aspect, the women and men of that society are going to strive for that perfection status.

If porn suggests that the best sexual partner is one who has endless stamina, perfect genatalia, performs any act without question and screams on cue..then society might start to accept that anything less is less worthy of a real, daily partner.

Individually, I see NO problem with porn as long as it does not create problems in your life. (Addiction, ruins intimacy in your life, distorts reasonable expecations of a healthy sexual life, etc.)

As a female, I am responsible for my OWN integrity AND self-esteem. I AM influenced by what is important to my sexual partner and what is important/valuable/arousing to him.

When I was younger, I assumed that my guy was watching porn because I was not exciting enough for him, or I was expected to perform like the women he viewed. I found out this was NOT the case for ALL men.

I think men have a huge responsibility to let the woman in their life know where she stands with him. Is it casual, committed, etc. He should let her know how he prefers to express his sexuality. Only with her? Porn once in awhile? Porn with her?

He should also understand how Porn makes HER FEEL. It may make her feel insecure. If it DOES, then a responsible male partner is going to tell his lover that porn is not an exclusion of HER or her love.

In a nutshell, I think women in general need to relax about men using porn and men need to be a bit more considerate and discreet about it.

I view porn much like I do golf. I am not thrilled to play golf, but it brings a lot of joy to the man in my life. I can appreciate certain aspect about golf, but I do not want to do EVERYTHING. He plays golf and comes home happy to other things. If I do not play golf, he doesnt resent it.

I do not feel that him playing golf takes anything away from me, as long as he is playing games we both enjoy later! *wink!

Best Wishes.

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A female reader, eyeswideopen +, writes (27 June 2011):

I too looked through all my memos, Tish and I couldn't find the one that said I could dump my integrity. So I guess I won't be able to be shallow and just see everything in black and white while at the same time lumping people into one size fits all categories. Dang that certainly would simplify things...