A
female
age
51-59,
anonymous
writes:It's not a love question, but yesterday i got into argument w/my american friends about this issue, and was very upset w/their answer to the point that now i question if i ever had anything in comon w/them and if we should continue our friendship.We immigrated to United states 20 years ago, and throughout this time we heard why don't you go back to where you came from many many times. For any reason, if we say we don't like weather, or would make any observation that particular person didn't like, it was always why don't you pack and go back. We learned over the years not to even mention a slightest negative opinion about any of the american cultural traits. We are able to talk about our own country as much as we like but God forbid we say something about this country.Out daughter grew up here and we're American citizens, but still we have an accent, so we really think twise before we express any opinion in regard to social structure or cultural behavior that is different from our own.Last Saturday there was a Christmas party at our friends house, and we all had a few drinks, started talking about out grown kids and their boyfriends, girlfriends. Most people at the table were mmigrants like myself, but one man, who actually came to the country at the age of 2, like my daughter, from Italy, but of-course completely americanized by his age of 50. My daughter had a boyfriend from age 14 for nearly six years, and what i observed that he acted toward her in a very different way, that any boy or man from my country acted toward me. For example- spliting of a restaurant bill, that was unheard of in my country, and the way he always made her to split any kind of work w/him around the house, or not helping w/carrying heavy things, basically in my eyes not taking care of his girl.As a mother, of-course, i never liked it, as we all want the best for our kids.My daughter explained to me that there is nothing wrong in paying half for your diner in this country or be completely equal to a man. I always disagreed w/her on this. Being a gentleman has nothing to do w/equality. Women are physically not as strong as men, so they do need help in carrying heavy objects. Women in US are still paid less than men, it's a well known fact. Based on our numerous converstaion w/her about this particular benavior of men in US, i concluded that this is very typical for a man to act in this way toward women.And this is what i said at the party, that my daughters ex-boyfriend was a typical american boy. Italian-american guy was very upset by my comment, and of-course i heard 'why don't u pack your bags and go where u came from'. He said that he hates the fact that people come to this country and put this country down. I asked him, how am i putting this country down, by observing a certain behavior of men, that i disagree with. I also added that i traveled to more than 20 countries and certainly have my opinion wether positive or negative about each of those countries, but definitely think that Unites states is the best place on earth, it doesn't stop me from noticing things and have my opinion about them.Then everything was thrown into the basket, war w/ Irag, medicate, wellfare, and how he would die for his country.I didn't think much of this man after that, nor did i considered him to have any 'class' or 'sofistication'.He was introduced to us by our comon friend as a new potential boyfriend.A week later our friends,hostesses of the party, asked us when we met again, what we think about a new guy. And without waiting for our answer started saying what a great class this guy has by indicating his 3500$ JAKET and 1500$ pants. I said that having class for me it's not having expensive clothes, but having some integrity not starting in front of a table full of immigrants from different countries an above mentioned argument, even if i said an unfortunate frase 'typical american boy'. They had no idea what was going on at the table that night, but when i told them in details about that argument, really thinking that they are w/me on that issue, as they are our open minded, kind hearted friends, they actually agreed w/a new guy, saying that yes, people that come to US should appreciate what this country is giving them, instead of complaining, and yes, we should all just pack and go back, if we don't like something here.I was completely destroyed that night, i couldn't go on w/evening and we just went home. Our friends felt that something was going wrong and tried to fix the situation by saying all the'right' things, but it was too late for me.In a morning my husband said that I was overreacting, that it's really not that big of a deal, that I was wrong also, by stereotyping all american men, that if our daughter heard me saying it i 'd be in trouble w/her also. I don't think that my frase was as harsh as remarks of the guy who i can see if it was his will would ban anyone from coming to Us ever again, forgeting that EVERYONE here at one point came as an imigrant , so did he. The sadest part is that I completely changed my attitude toward my friends, can't bring myself to stay friends w/them.Their answers reminded me of hate talk that people have toward other races, or anyone who is different from them.My husband keeps telling me that i was the one who triggered the whole thing. Am i overreacting? Please help me understand why people have this reaction to my words. If someone said something like that about men from my country, i would find it funny that they observed something that i knew all alone, that's all, even i didn't agree w/some observation, i 'd never say something as ignorant and obnactios as pack you bags and leave.
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reader, anonymous, writes (29 December 2009): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionTo anonymous poster:
First of all, when i said 'my country' it was a figure of speach. This is what i ment when i said that evey innocent frase like 'my country' would trigger a reaction like yours. Of-course i didn't mean that America isn't my country, that's why we immigrated as we wanted better life for our child and for us, and as I said earlier i think that this is the best country to live in.
Second of all, my daughter when i ran this story by her, said the following: there are plenty of idiots out there, mom, who think they have a power to deside who stays in US and who doesn't.Ussualy it's ignorant people who form their opinion on opinions of other ignorant people, who sadly don't have an ability due to lack of education to form their own judment of the situation. If everyone who says something critical about US should pack their bags and go to their 'home country' there won't be anyone left here, but a few proud idiots.
'Typical american boy' is not a deregatory comment, that was said in a joking way among friends. The reaction of that man was uncalled for, angry remark of an ignorant man.
I have cuban girlfriends who say 'typical cuban men', that doesn't make any cuban men upset, as they know how they are.
I heard a lot of negative comments about country that i came from through out the years. I know it's all true. No, it doesn't upset me to hear negative things, makes me said to realize that so many friends and family still live there.
I think everyone should be able to say what they think in this country at least without being punished for it. I never said anything about any of the country i visited in a disrespectfull way, and believe me we did accept many many things that are different from where we came from.
As for men paying for women.... I talked to plenty of american women of all ages, 20's, 30's 40's, 50's, ALL of them think that these men are cheap, have no manners, and ussually there is no second date after that. And these are career women who deffinitely can afford any restaurant bill. They aren't after anyone's money, if they are invited out to a place of the guy's choice the bill should be taken care off by a guy. Imancipation have nothing to do w/it.
Yes, my daughter still think that it's not an obligation of a man to pay for dinners, etc, but her 'bill splitting' boyfriend is history. Now she is w/someone for 2 years, who treated her the 'old fashioned' way like a gentleman from the very beginning, making her feel like a princess.
She still thinks that it's not nessesary, but she also says, that it's VERY VERY NICE!!! By the way she earnes quite a bit os salary, and now she takes him out from now and then, no problem, but every time he argues about it.
What women were fighting for is to be treated like valuable members of society as they weren't even alowed to vote, they were not fighting to 'pay for dates' No woman EVER given up the concept of a man being a Gentleman in any country, that's an easy way out for those men who don't want to be gentlemen.
If you read stats you'll see how many equal jobs pay differently depending on gender. It is a well known fact that some retail corporations pay their managers w/significant difference depending on gender.
A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (28 December 2009): To be blunt,," In my country it's socialy unacceptable, it's embarassing to the point as u said, that there will be no date if a guy has no means at that time."
That is the point America is not your country is it?? As you continue refering to "your country" as another country. Other wise you would simply refer to "the country I came from"
What you have missed was the entire "women's lib" movement in this country where women demanded to be treated as equal with men including paying for dates etc. This happened way back in the 1970's-1080's so for the last 30+ years men have accepted and learned to NOT take the "protector", "leader", " buyer" role in relationships.
For men the only safe course of action is allowing women to pay whenever the woman want's to pay as Alot of women are adamant about paying their "share".
You can disagree with your daughter all you want to but,,, SHE IS RIGHT !! Most women have given up the "Gentleman" aspect of a relationship for the "equality" and women being equal to men. Many times men showing they are a "gentleman by insisting on paying for meals, being the "leader-protector" can cost the man a relationship with the woman as the women see it as the man assuming control in the relationship.
Women wanted complete equality and they got it. You can not change that.
"Women in US are still paid less than men, it's a well known fact." NO you are wrong it is NOT a well known fact, women have sued enough in the court system in America that most all pay for the same job IS Equal. There are millions of women who make more than I do. There are special career programs that are exclusively for females male applicants are rejected.
I can fully appreciate the country you came from was where America was in the 1950's in regard to how men treated women. That is not how America is in 2009 however.
As I stated earlier to your sentence "in my country",, Honey,, as long as you immigrated to America legally and are a LEGAL American citizen,, THIS IS YOUR COUNTRY. Where ever you came from doesn't matter it is simply "the country you came from". You are making a distinction that this is NOT your country (America) more like you are here on vacation/holiday. You have willfully set yourself apart from America so, you don't get to complain when people say, "if you don't like it here, go home then".
There is an old phrase, "when in Rome, do as the Romans do."
Well Sunshine,,, you are in "Rome", Learn to accept things are different than the country you came from.
I may sound harsh, but it sound's very much like your Daughter and friends have tried to tell you this before and you were not listening.
As you have been shopping countries,, " ..i traveled to more than 20 countries and certainly have my opinion wether positive or negative about each of those countries.." Were you treated the same way when you made derogotory comments about those other 20 countries by the citizens of those countries ?? (I would bet in some of those countries you would be put in jail for derogotory comments about their countries??) You don't get to "comparison shop countries" if you don't like a country's customs that's fine,, but learn to accept it or maybe go back to "your country".
American's like most all countries have some nationalism and pride in their country and don't appreciate other's critizism. How would you feel if People went to "your country" and complained about your customs and beliefs ??
"When in Rome........"
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (28 December 2009): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThanks for answering very much!! I guess my post isn't as exciting as sex questions, i don't think i'll get any more answers.
That was I thought that everyone entitled to their own opinions, but from the reaction i get i don't want to bring any aggrevation into any social gathering, ussualy i watch out and stay away from political discussions and so on.... You're right -'stereotypes' in sociology called cultural trates, they didn't form from thin air, and i am alo being carefull about judging about someone depending from what country this person is from.
I know not every men in US makes his date split a bill w/him, but it's not out of the ordinary,it's actualy a very comon thing to do here. In my country it's socialy unacceptable, it's embarassing to the point as u said, that there will be no date if a guy has no means at that time.
O,well, i'll try not to stress about it anymore, i just feel at this moment that i m deeply dissapointed w/my friends response to the point that I doubt that we'll continue to see each other.Thank again, made me feel better
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reader, DeadEyeDick +, writes (28 December 2009):
 my family immigrated here from Ireland, I was born here, but was the first in my family that was, but I relate as growing up, Id watch some of the shit they went through, they came here legally, but it took my grandpa many years to get the whole family over here, legally, I know they all look at people that came here illegally poorly,because it took blood, sweat,and years, to bring our family over, and nobody came all at once, so they were split up for a long time, I kind of have an attitude towards people that come here illegally, then talk about it! but I don't see how coming here legally makes you any different then anybody else, if your legal, talk about whatever you'd like! everyone else does, and everyone in America is so sensitive anymore about being politically correct, the simplest observation is viewed as being "racist" ive always thought stereo types are funny and true, I mean I don't get offended by them, if they are ignorant and hurtful, then it's not cool, but generally stereo types arent made up, right? but anybody who lives in America has to be able to think outside the box, because everything in America is done within the box, the government and the media, spoon feed junk into our minds, until eventually your not debating if it's right or wrong, but your debating which part of the junk is right or wrong, they get everybody so up in arms, fighting with each other, that nobody has time to actually form their own opinion, thats what ive seen in my 32 years on earth, so your going to find alot of defensive and opinionated idiots!! I hold the door for my daughter and my ex, as well as my mom, and any other man or women, because I was raised to, it's polite, its respect, if Im taking someone out for dinner(I dont if i cant afford it)but I pay, because Im the man, and I was raised that way, I had no problem with my ex paying for anything, she made more then I did, but I most certainly made up for it in other ways, so maybe I sit in the middle, but I would never watch a women or child try and struggle lifting something heavy, when I could do it, and it wouldn't even make me break a sweat, I thought that was common sense!!!
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