A
male
age
36-40,
anonymous
writes:Right so this is a toughie. I'm hoping you guys can help me...cause I really need it!!I met a girl several weeks ago at a club. A real stunner. Beautiful green eyes, blonde hair, lovely figure, very high cheekbones, full lips. She was chatting with a girlfriend. I was with my blokes. one of em dared me to walk up to her and start chatting. Modesty aside I'm a pretty good lookin lad, but still i got cold feet around this girl. Surely she had a bf. Anyway, I screwed up my courage and walked over to her. She was sweet, open, and seemed flattered. After chatting for a half hour or so I asked if she wanted to dance. She said yes and we spent the rest of the night together dancing, drinking and laughing. At the end of the night I asked for her number and she gave it with a smile.Fast forward a couple weeks and we been seein each other about 3 or 4 times. I am getting suspicious as to why a girl like this hasnt a bf. SHe said she was just picky. One of my pals was getting suspicious too and thought she was pullin a crying game on me, and that she was really a he. I hadnt slept with her but on the third date we did get a bit hot and heavy in my car and I can assure you, she was a she. Finally, the answer came out. And it threw me for a loop ever since.This girl said she modeled on the side. Did a few pics for some web sites. Nothin too outrageous but cheesecake kind of stuff. You know in lingerie and swimsuit. I was goin over the pics with one of the guys and he noticed something: a couple of pics she posted were of a different girl. This girl had brunette hair, totally different lips, much bigger nose. Still had a stunning body but totally different girl. I said to my friend that I guess somebody made a mistake someplace. But then me friend looked closer. A mole on the side of her belly button matched up exactly with the location of a mole on this other girl's body. A scar on her shoulder was also on the other girl's shoulder. We then looked at the eyes. My girl's eyes were wider but the gaze looked familiar. My friend then tried an experiment. Bein a bit of an artist, he downloaded the pic into photoshop, and started playing around with this other girl's face. He enlarged the lips, set back the jaw, took an inch of the nose, and colored the girl's hair blonde. Well what do you know? It was my girl. Now it made sense. She wasnt always a beauty so she never got a big head. And she was still shy and still looked her herself like she was when she was much plainer.Next date, she saw I looked upset. We was sittin in a pub, I had a pint in front of me. She pushed me until I told her about what I found out a couple nights before. I asked her straight out, "Did you have plastic surgery?"She was silent for a while, staring at me. She then spoke slowly with some anger in her voice. She said she had. She wanted modeling so bad that she got it done little by little. First the jaw, then the nose, then the lips. Then the hair. She said it was a rotten thing to do to look up her photos liek that and to play around with it, but then said with a smile maybe my friend could have made even more pretty if he was the surgeon. I laughed. She then asked me the big question which I am bringin here today: "Does it bother you?"Im an honest bloke, no one ever said I wasnt, so I told her first not really but then said I wasnt sure. We ended the date not saying much, I took her back to her flat and havent talked to her in a day, trying to get my head straight. I know it shouldnt bother me, shes the same person inside. At least thats what my mum would say. But it does bother me. I mean, its like the girl's lips I'm kissin were made by a doctor, her nose is the product of a knife, her eyes which I gaze into were nipped and tucked. And also it bothers me that she felt she wasnt good enough so she had to change. It bothers me that the person I am getting to know felt she had to change.So enough of me, its your turn. Be honest now. Would it bother you if your girl's face wasnt the one she was born with, and was actually created by a doctor instead of God? Waiting for your wisdom, SeanP.S. Please dont call me out as a superficial cad just lookin for some kitty. Im serious about this and I want it to be a relationship. I just want it to be with a real person. Thanks.[Mod note: as answers to this question may reflect societal and cultural norms, it should be noted that the question originates from the New York City area in the USA.]
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female
reader, llifton  +, writes (15 November 2013):
 i mean, compare your average looking man to johnny depp or david beckham or whoever you consider ridiculously attractive. if you saw him in a bar standing next to a plain looking man; your average, run-of-the-mill dude, would you not find yourself wanting to be with the the insanely good-looking guy if you had the chance? over the average guy? come on. or would you see all the women flocking to the plain looking guy? not a chance. women are the same exact way. it's just human nature. and just like men have a preconceived notion of beauty in women, women have the same in men. women tend to be attracted way more to tall, alpha male type men. and those with more money. so i don't care if you're a man or a woman. we can be equally as "shallow." however, i don't consider it shallow. it's just natural. you can't blame a guy for wanting what he wants. of course he was leaning towards a really beautiful woman over the more average looking one. who wouldn't? that's not him being a douchebag. it's called human nature.
if you choose to let these things bother you and make you believe you will never find a suitable mate unless you change yourself and your appearance, then that, to me, seems more like a problem within oneself. if someone chooses someone else over me in a bar, i say that's their loss, because i'm the shit. my self worth certainly isn't certralized in how much attention i get from others. i know my self worth.
A
female
reader, llifton +, writes (15 November 2013):
perhaps she did get tired of being considered "plain" and average looking. however, are there not millions of men who get over-looked by women for the very same thing? you can't really get mad at him or blame him for finding someone more attractive than someone else. and if she stayed her "plain" looking self, she would have found a man who loved her for who she was all the same.
some people are born with natural beauty, while most of us are not. but we can still have full confidence in ourselves for who we are, regardless of how much attention we get from the desired sex.
i'm sure you're a beautiful woman. but you started to make yourself believe otherwise because you thought men didn't find you attractive. why let what someone else thinks effect you so much? who you are and what you have to offer the world is way more important. have faith in your own beauty and not how some man responds to you when he sees a little bump on your nose. love yourself. your whole self. that's beautiful. that's attractive. that's all i'm saying.
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A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (14 November 2013): "while he was simply saying he wants an all-natural woman."Yes, but he called her "plain" and "not a beauty" when he saw a photo of her when she was natural. What this tells me is that he expects a woman to be naturally perfect in every way, meaning have ALL the physical qualities of what's considered stereotypically attractive. Since it rarely occurs that someone is perfect naturally, I think he has his standards set too high. Physical perfection is what he considers beautiful. Any less is plain to him. That's why he's so disappointed to find out she's not natural. Is she superficial for getting those surgeries? Maybe. But maybe she also got referred to as plain one too many times, and overlooked because of it. Maybe she got tired of going to the trouble of applying makeup everyday only to still be passed up for "better" women, so she got surgery so she could wake up looking perfect. This is my thought.I mean no offense to either llifton or OP, honestly. This is just how I perceive this situation. I'm the female anon who responded yesterday who had the broken nose, by the way. I can see both sides, yet I still lean toward his girlfriend for the reasons I listed before. I tend to be biased on topics like this, since I've dealt with feeling inadequate, due to an imperfection of my own that isn't even natural. Yet I'm still often judged and passed up for it.
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A
female
reader, llifton +, writes (14 November 2013):
in all fairness, i think it's being a little harsh calling him superficial and judgmental. in actuality, technically, would not the girl who got all the surgery done be the superficial one? while he was simply saying he wants an all-natural woman. i can relate to this. in fact, my ex used to always tell me she was going to get a boob job. i told her i supported whatever she thought would make her happy, however, i preferred her just how she was without the work done.
i, personally, wouldn't prefer to date a woman who had had a ton of work done, either. i want a woman who recognizes her natural beauty and flaunts it. who loves herself exactly how she is. i find comfort/confidence in your own skin extremely sexy. and for me, a woman who felt the need to change her entire appearance (note: not even just one thing or another, but the whole face to the point of resembling another person) demonstrates a lack of self-esteem and confidence. learn to love your face and your body with what you were born with. we are all beautiful in our own ways.
anyway, all that being said, i see where you're coming from. there is absolutely nothing wrong with having surgery done. and props to the person who can go through with it, as i'm sure it's pretty painful. but it's a preference of mine. and it sounds like it's a preference of yours, as well. you want a natural beauty. and you're allowed to feel that way. and you're not horrible for it. if this is something you can't get past, that's completely up to you and understandable.
however, on a side note: how you went about discovering her surgery was a little crappy. i'm sure there were better ways of bringing this topic up lol.
anyway, good luck.
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A
female
reader, pinktopaz +, writes (14 November 2013):
Besides not wanting to be called superficial...I'm really bothered by the fact that you thought she was a "fake" somehow because she didn't have a boyfriend! Where is the logic behind that? If you're attractive, you're supposed to be with someone? If you're not involved, you might be a tranny? You basically said because she didn't look the same before explains why she doesn't have a big head? This is why women are so insecure and feel the need to change their looks!
You liked her "enhanced" looks to begin with, she's still a real person. I don't see why it makes that much of a difference. But she may be dumb if she gives you a chance still after the last time you went out. Just for future reference, asking a woman "have you had plastic surgery?" is really rude.
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (14 November 2013): It only matters if you think it matters. Everyone feels differently about plastic surgery. My guy friend refuses to date any girl who has had plastic surgery. When I asked why, he just said there's no particular reason, he just doesn't like it. And that's fine. I've dated a man who had minor plastic surgery. I've seen his "before" photos and he's more attractive now. That's fine. I don't see anything wrong with getting plastic surgery as long as you do it responsibly. He could afford it and wanted to make himself more attractive. Nothing wrong with that. Girls use makeup to contour & highlight their face, giving a similar affect to plastic surgery. If anything good plastic surgery looks a lot less fake than makeup. It's just permanent and requires less maintenance.
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A
female
reader, YoungButNotNaive  +, writes (13 November 2013):
 "Would it bother you if your girl's face wasnt the one she was born with, and was actually created by a doctor instead of God?"No, this wouldn't bother me, supposing I was attracted to women in the first place. (I'm a straight, married woman.) Anyway, I look at it this way: I'd rather be with someone who used to be unhappy, but is happy NOW than someone who is currently unhappy. The only thing I would worry about is someone who has had as many surgeries as your girlfriend has an addiction to plastic surgery. (Yes, it exists.) There are women that start out with just a nose job or boob job, but then they start finding other things they don't like about themselves, so they keep having surgeries to correct these perceived flaws, only to keep finding more.Look, I'm trying not to judge you, similar to how you're trying not to judge her. I'm finding it very hard for this reason:First you say,"She wasnt always a beauty so she never got a big head. And she was still shy and still looked her herself like she was when she was much plainer."Then you say, "And also it bothers me that she felt she wasnt good enough so she had to change." Do you see how this sounds hypocritical? You said she wasn't a beauty before, but isn't beauty the reason you approached her in the first place? Then you say, "It bothers me that the person I am getting to know felt she had to change."This is irony. It bothers you, yet you wouldn't be getting to know her if NOT for the fact she changed herself. You would have deemed her as "plain", and therefore would have passed her up.
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A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (13 November 2013): It wouldn't worry me at all, depending on what the person looked like NOW. If the person still looked good, it wouldn't matter at all. She was improving herself, for herself. People have moles removed, or loose weight, or cut their hair, or colour their hair, people wear different clothes to change how they look, get fake tans, shave their legs, have their teeth whitened, get tattoos, piercings..... It doesn't matter how far she took it, she was just improving herself, creating herself, and that is a great thing. If you don't like the end product, don't be with her, but if she looks good, and you enjoyed her 'essence' then be with her.
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A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (13 November 2013): what exactly did she do with her jaw?!! And eyes? you cant change shape of eyes, really, well, there are some surgeries that open Asian eyes, but she is not Asian, isn't she? You can take extra skin that make your eyes look sagy, I had it done.I don't really understand why it turns of. Its not like she was a different sex. Also, you couldn't understand why she doesn't have boyfriend, why is that so? What does plastic surgeries have to do with having a boyfriend or not. What does anything has to do with having a partner or not. Ugly people have boyfriends and girlfriends also, you know.Its not that you are superficial, its just insecurity screams from your post. You cant believe that a beauty like this talks to you, you are upset because she has done something. Her surgeries are not even about you. That's her body, take it or leave it. And the fact that you were discussing her with you buddies....And why you have this idea that not sensational looking people act differently? Its all depends on a person. Through my life I ve met not attractive physically people who had no respect for others and treated everyone harshly, and I ve met beatifull people who were kind and laid back, and wisa versa. It all depends on a person.
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A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (13 November 2013): "But you're the type of person that has made her feel the need to change as your post is plagued with implications she wasn't good looking beforehand."This is spot on. I'm sorry, Sean. I'm not trying to judge you or call you superficial, but it is what it is. The fact is, you wouldn't have approached her had she looked the way she did before the surgeries. Maybe she got tired of being ignored and passed up by guys for being "plain looking", as you called her. Yes, in case you're wondering, I'm a "plain" woman myself. I broke my nose when I was 18. I was living on my own, working low paying job, and didn't have insurance. So I never saw a doctor, and it healed on its own leaving a bump on the bridge of my nose. 7 years have passed, and I can't tell you the number of guys who have rejected me for it. They didn't say anything, but its one of those things you just know. I still look like I did before from the front. So when a guy first sees me, he doesn't notice. But I've had it where a guy has been checking me out until I turn to an angle where he can see the bump on my nose. Then he just looks away and refuses to look at me again. Guess what? That hurts my feelings, and there isn't a day that goes by I wish I had the money to fix it. It wasn't even how I was born, but people who don't know me aren't aware of that. So I get ruled out for something that isn't even how I look naturally. How do you think that makes me feel? My point of telling you this is to try to help you understand why a woman would want to change her looks. She also picked a career that is about looks. I've got news for you. Hardly anyone is "perfect" naturally. Even if they haven't had plastic surgery, they are wearing a good makeup that looks natural, they dyed their hair and/or wearing hair extensions, go tanning to even out their skin tone, the list goes on. If you can learn to accept this, you'll be a lot better off, seeing as though you want to date REALLY good looking women, and very few are naturally this way.
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A
female
reader, So_Very_Confused +, writes (13 November 2013):
HOW is she NOT a REAL PERSON? Is she an android? or made of wood? (DATA wanted to be a real person as did Pinocchio)
Am I NOT a real person because I’ve had plastic surgery to enhance some things that needed some help? Am I not a real person because I dye my hair?
A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet would it not? IF we called a ROSE stinkweed… would it still look and smell like a ROSE? You bet it would.
Is she real? YOU bet the insides of her are the same as they were before she had some cosmetic work done.
Do you know why she FELT she wasn’t good enough? Because guys like you have deemed her NOT a beauty before the enhancements. WOW.
I think you need to leave her and let her find someone who will love and accept her. YOU yourself admit that you know it should not bother you but it does. We can’t control how we feel only what we do with those feelings. I don’t fault you for your feelings. They are what they are and you are entitled to feel any way you want. I think it’s a bit misguided and you are probably missing out on what could be a wonderful relationship but leave her to find someone who will not judge a book by it’s cover.
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female
reader, chigirl  +, writes (13 November 2013):
This could be what you need to hear in order to have a real relationship: don't discuss your lady with your friends as if you were discussing a video game. It's a person, not a game. Treat a lady with respect both to her face and behind her back.
Now, would I be bothered? I wouldn't have gone about it the way you did, all the scheming and plotting and all. But never the less, I think it would bother me. Depends on several things though. If the cosmetic surgery was done out of necessity, both physical necessity and social necessity. Say for instance you removed a huge mole poking out on your forehead. I'd be fine with it being removed. Say your teeth were sticking out and pointing in all directions, but you could still eat. I'd be fine with them having been corrected.
And, personally, I don't have a problem with people who have cosmetic surgery. I just would prefer to be in a relationship with a real person, that'd all. Tons of men like fake boobs and fake blonds, and fake this and that. Each to their own. But I wouldn't want a man with fake muscles, rather then that he was skinny. I wouldn't want a girlfriend who had fake boobs, rather then that she was flat chested.
However, as much as I don't like it, a person is more than their body parts combined. Sure I like tall, muscular men. But I'm in a relationship with a man who is the same height as me, and thin. And I'm very happy with his looks, because I don't want some shallow prototype of any body, I also want a person inside who can make me laugh and have a great conversation with.
If I was single, and I met this amazing woman who I get on so well with, but she was fake from head to toe.. Well, if I really liked her I probably would be in a relationship with her. All that matters in the end is that I am happy, what everyone else thinks doesn't matter. I would worry more about the persons psychological state of being then. Just like I wouldn't want to enter a relationship with a person who has severe mental problems, or a drug addiction, I wouldn't want to enter a relationship with someone I felt was self destructive. Because that also ends up tearing me down. I can handle a lacking self confidence, but I can't handle depression. I'm not a doctor. If she got surgery because she's fixated on being "perfect", and if she's not mentally balanced.. If she'd pick on the looks of our future children, if she'd pick on the way I look, if she has a need for everything to be "perfect" in our lives and post "happy happy" pictures on facebook every 10th minute about our "perfect" lives... Then no, I wouldn't handle it.
So, I think you need to look at the bigger picture. Where does the surgery fit into the bigger picture? Is it a small piece of the picture that, although not real, fits in nicely? Or is the rest of the picture also fake, fixed, and filled with "problem" areas that she wants corrected?
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A
female
reader, Honeypie +, writes (13 November 2013):
 I don't think you should have told her that you and your friend played around with her picture in photoshop, that was downright CRUEL.
Asking her about plastic surgery I can understand because you kind of had an inkling after seeing her "before" and "after" pictures.
Personally, I don't really "get" plastic surgery when it's for 100% vanity, but what I might see as vanity (nose job on a nose that is working fine and looking fine for instance) - might be the difference between a career and NOT having a career for a girl. Unlike Cindy Crawford, many models have changes done because they are TOLD it will HELP them in their career. Now take Cindy Crawford, she was told she would never make it big with the mole on her face, but she told them screw it, this is MY face so she kept the mole and had an AMAZING career.
My guess is the girl didn't have the same attitude as Cindy Crawford. She might have been a 9 before but if she was constantly told she was a 6 (or a 9) - BUT could be a 10+ with surgery here and there, you BLAME her for falling for it and getting it done? YOU can't tell me, that that even the ugliest girl doesn't WANT to look her best?! Surgeries are a drastic and permanent solution. Not everyone can afford or would do. This girl did. HER CHOICE.
The surgeries and the hair dye is NOT what defines her. YOUR mom us right.
And no, the doctor didn't make her lips, HE took what was already there and enhanced it. The hair dye didn't make her a different person, but it changed the COLOR of her hair. Are you aware HOW many women DYE their hair? Actors? Who are naturally blond, but the roles calls for a brunette? Ordinary women? Blondes who are tired of not being taken serious dye it red? Or brunettes wanting to try new things, dye theirs black or blond?
What about all the women who apply make up in the morning? Style their hair? Get hair extensions? Those who wear spanx to look slimmer? Or the girls with the push up bras who are "only" a B but looks a D?
You can't see past the surgeries to see the real girl, which means you need to be honest with her and LET her go. She surely doesn't need another person JUDGING her looks. It's not like she can reverse it, even if she did, GUESS WHAT? IT would be MORE surgery!
It bothers you that YOU THINK she felt she had to change, guess what Buddy, I BET IT bothers her EVEN MORE that all YOU seem concern with is HER looks.
Sorry, You ARE a shallow Hal.
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A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (13 November 2013): This is going to sound harsh, but coming from someone who has had surgery too, this is what I think:
It bothers you that she felt the need to change? But you're the type of person that has made her feel the need to change as your post is plagued with implications she wasn't good looking beforehand.
Everyone has the right to feel good about themselves.
Serious question here: Do you just feel ripped off? Because you thought you got a good looking girl but naturally she turned out to be ugly (or uglier than you thought?)Now everytime you kiss her you can't help but picture her as the 'uglier' girl & think you can do better?
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female
reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (13 November 2013):
 Is it the bait's fault the fish fell for it?
She had plastic surgery on her hair? Wow, never heard of a haircut being called plastic surgery.
Anyway, to analyze your reaction to the physical appearance in the photos you saw:
"This girl had brunette hair, totally different lips, much bigger nose. Still had a stunning body but totally different girl." "She wasnt always a beauty so she never got a big head." "when she was much plainer"
And then you add this: "she felt she wasnt good enough so she had to change." She didn't actually say that, did she? She thought she could improve her appearance, so she did. And it worked, didn't it? You basically called her not a beauty back then.
So I say, rock on, woman! Do what makes you happy with yourself, and if it annoys the guy who expects people to wear labels so that he doesn't get 'fooled' by a surgeon, well, there are plenty of guys who would be happy to enjoy your current physical being (hopefully along with your personality and intelligence as well) without feeling let down.
If you focus on exterior beauty then don't be angry or upset when someone does what they can to improve their appearance.
She is a real person. You are the one stuck on exteriors.
I think you will have to give up on this one, you blame her for taking advantage of the God-given skills of plastic surgeons.
By your logic, someone who had both a breast removed due to breast cancer, should have left the scar and had the skin sewn up over her ribcage, with no nipple reconstruction or implant. I mean, that would be a breast created by a surgeon? The one that God created was trying to kill her, after all. Maybe she shouldn't even have the breast removed, or chemotherapy or radiation? God created that breast and here she is, messing with it, getting rid of it AND then having the gall to have a plastic surgeon recreate one!
I know, that's different, she was at risk of dying if she didn't remove the breast that God gave her. That's a life-saving surgery, not merely cosmetic. But actually, only the breast removal is life-saving. The reconstruction of the breast, now, that is cosmetic surgery, purely vanity, surely, to try to recreate a breast? How shallow of her to think she should or even could try to fool people with that breast. Shallow and vain.
By your logic, being with a person who has had a breast reconstruction isn't a real person.
And so, there we are. You don't want to be with someone who has taken steps to improve her appearance. Your threshold appears to be using a plastic surgeon. So be sure to include that question early in the dating process and you can then safely eliminate the 'fakes.' Problem solved!
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A
female
reader, sugarplum786 +, writes (13 November 2013):
 Don't let it bother you. Question is would you still have dated this woman before her surgery, if yes, then its the same person.
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (13 November 2013): It doesn't matter what we think.
We won't be the ones making love to her.
If it bothers you then don't go there.
You said yourself that you're a good looking lad. So you won't struggle to find a natural stunner.
You're better off going your own separate ways than her having you look down at her for her choices in life.
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male
reader, Fatherly Advice +, writes (13 November 2013):
 My perspective may be as unique as yours. I do have a bit of experience to back it up. There was a girl in my high school class that was more of a friend than a love interest. She was popular and involved in all the right groups. One Saturday our drama group got together in the morning to build a set. She showed up without make up. I didn't recognize her. She had terrible acne scaring. Like the Beatles song Elinor Rigby She wore a face that she kept in a jar. Sure it was fake but it was also necessary. Now your gal has a career in modeling her appearance is how she puts food on the table. The surgery for her was a job requirement, or at least an enhancement.
The surgery is as much a part of her past as the acne was part of my friends past. The good news is that it is permanent. It won't be changing back every night when she takes off her face. It doesn't make her less of a real person. It's just an experience in her past that is now a part of who she is.
But if you can't accept that you are entitled to your own feelings and how I feel should not affect your decisions as much as how you feel.
FA
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A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (13 November 2013): To be honest, not trying to be mean, but you wouldn't have approached her as she was before so I don't know why you're 'complaining'. Also, I'm surprised you didn't notice the lips, as a qualified plastic surgeon even when it's done well you can always tell ;).
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