A
female
age
41-50,
anonymous
writes:My boyfriend and I have been together for nearly a year. (He's in his early 40's and I'm in my early 30's.) We recently got pregnant, but I had a miscarriage. Though this pregnancy was unexpected, we had discussed wanting to have kids together in the near future before we found out the news. When I was pregnant, I brought up the subject of getting married. He explained then that he didn't believe in marriage and had no plans of getting married any time soon. (He's been divorced before, and so have I, but never at any point did he tell me that he never wanted to marry again up until this point. Neither of us have kids.) I explained how important it is to me, but the conflict was left resolved. Since the miscarriage, he's expressed interest in wanting to get pregnant again just after the new year, but he hasn't mentioned marriage. I personally think the commitment of marriage and having a baby together go hand-in-hand, so I'm not sure why marriage is such a hesitation for him, while having a baby is a "no-brainer." It seems to me that it's the perfect time to get married - when we want to start making a baby. He knows I have no interest in big weddings, dresses and rings; I'd rather focus on love between us than all the expensive BS that goes into a wedding. Eloping is my style. I even suggested a pre-nup if he's concerned about finances. So why would my love be hesitant to marry me, but be more than willing to have a baby with me?
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female
reader, So_Very_Confused +, writes (8 December 2011):
 “warm up to the idea” and wanting a baby before marriage??? STAND your GROUND. NO MARRIAGE NO BABY… I rarely stand this firmly on something but in this case I will. I personally am a bit old fashioned and think that babies walking down the aisle with the mommy and daddy is just WRONG…
I raised my sons with “you can’t have a baby if you are not married” well by the time they were 12 they were asking how single women got pregnant… thankfully they both still agree that marriage first baby second….
I truly think IF you have a baby with him before marriage he will always find a way to NOT marry you.
STAND YOUR GROUND.
A
reader, anonymous, writes (8 December 2011): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionOdds, thank you for providing this perspective; It seems to be on par with where he stands.
We'll see how things develop in the coming months. I suppose my biggest concern at this point is the timing. How long should I wait for him to make a decision? He still wants to move forward with having a baby soon, but I don't want to get pregnant again until we're married.
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female
reader, Miamine  +, writes (8 December 2011):
 I can hear the anger, upset, pain and sarcasm in your voice. Your hurt about how he feels and you think it's either some type of bad reflection on you, or there is something wrong with him, or how he feels or the relationship itself.
Sigh.. I feel like I know the guy, what he is saying is nothing new to me, that's how most guys I know act and feel. Guy's I know don't want to get married, but the women I know don't care. If it's time to get married and it's the right thing to do, the women have no problem going out and buying their own wedding ring and dragging the man along.
Maybe it's you who needs to take a break from this whole wedding thing. You came here, and first you just wanted to get wed as a sign of commitment before you considered children. You've talked to him and he's clearly expressed his feelings. HE DOESN'T BELIEVE THAT MARRIAGE MATTERS, IT'S ONLY A PIECE OF PAPER, and as both of you know, it often ends in divorce. You talked to him and he has said, OK not interested in marriage, but I'll do it for you because you like it. He has said he loves you and wants a baby, all of this he said before and he is saying it again, and again, this is what he wants, you and a baby and he'll get married if that's what it takes. He didn't lie to you in the beginning, yep, sure maybe someday when the sun dies out and he's on his deathbed he might think about marriage and want to hurry and do it. But today aint that day. But he will do this and more for you.
But you want more, not good enough he'll do something to please you, you want more, you want him to be happy, willing and dancing. Next, you'll want more than a small wedding, you'll want a big one...
"sees himself spending the rest of his life with me (yet marriage is still in question?)"
But I thought you only wanted to get married for children. Now it sounds you want to get married no matter what. Sounds like you are changing your mind about what marriage means to you. He's been married and divorced, why should he want to do that again, if not for children and because the woman demands it. My parents never married again, you mention marriage and both of them start laughing.
He probably wants to move forward with the pregnancy, because to him that's a life-long commitment. Marriage isn't, it's a piece of paper. Don't mean to be rude, but you don't mention anything about the kids you may both have from previous relationships. If you both have none, then what's your commitment to your previous husband, what duty does he owe his previous wife. He could marry you tomorrow, and divorce, and do that every year with a different woman, until he gets bored. Nothing to stop him or you marrying over and over again. So that's why baby's mean a commitment to him, but a piece of paper doesn't.
He's not saying these things to hurt you. If that's not commitment and love, then I don't know what is. A man throws away his beliefs and his own desires and needs, he puts you first and decides to do what you want. But still it's not enough, you want him to ask, get down on one knee, put the engagement ring in a champagne glass, have a 100 piece jazz band playing in the background, and then yep, you'll believe that the guy is in love. He wants kids with you to keep you make sure he's with you for life. Kids make the difference, not paper, but kids do better when the parents are wed, happy and in love.
Step back, have a break from all this fuss, forget about it all for a while. You need to work out why, even though you've divorced, engagement, wedding, and all that fuss, is so important to you, more important than you've actually been able to admit to us. You wanna fix the first mistake, by doing this marriage with him so perfect? Are you really a romantic, who is trying to act like she doesn't really care about the trappings when she does.
I reckon the guy loves you, but how about you. Do you love him? Maybe this guy aint right for you, and that's fine, best to know now. Or maybe your just pissed of, because he's a man, saying and behaving the way a man acts and it's never flattering, but usually it's honest.
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male
reader, Odds +, writes (8 December 2011):
 "He still wants to move forward with getting pregnant again soon, and keeps saying that we could get married after we have the baby. Why after we have the baby and not now?"
I think you're trying to imply concern that he may be trying to put if off until you drop it, or even trick you. I think that's far from the case. What it is is normal, human hesitation and the desire to put off something unwanted. Kind of like how much easier it is to wash the dishes when the tax forms haven't been filled out yet. Or, for that matter, how easy it is to watch TV when the dishes aren't done.
His thoughts, at this point, probably amount to trying to decide if you value him as much as you value the abstract idea of marriage. Or maybe he's already worked that out by now - either way, it's crossed his mind. Your best bet to getting him enthusiastic about this is to find some way to reassure him that you want marriage for *him* and not for the abstract concept of marriage.
That's a fine distinction to make, but it's an important one. Remember, he does *not* equate marriage with being together forever, and his viewpoint is every bit as valid as yours.
On the other hand, he has no question in his mind about the desire to have children with you, or your fitness as the mother of his future kids. So he doesn't hesitate on that point.
Reassuring him that the marriage is your way of wanting to be with him, and not just something for the sake of a piece of paper, is something you'll have to individualize to your own relationship. I don't know the guy, so I don't think I can help with that one. But give it a shot.
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (8 December 2011): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionHe says he wants to have kids with me because (in no particular order) he's in love... we're compatible and just get along all the time (which we do, minus the subject of marriage)... sees himself spending the rest of his life with me (yet marriage is still in question?)... thinks I'll be a great mother. Again, my conversation with him this evening spelled out the following: he doesn't believe in marriage BUT wants to make me happy AND is open to getting married BUT he needs to warm up to the idea again AND is vague as to when that might be. He still wants to move forward with getting pregnant again soon, and keeps saying that we could get married after we have the baby. Why after we have the baby and not now?
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female
reader, Miamine +, writes (8 December 2011):
"He does realize that marriage is important to me and said that he would get married if it would make me happy, but he also explained that it's going to take some time for him to warm up to the idea again."Translation... man wants to keep you, and man wants kids with you. He doesn't like marriage, it's a waste of time to him. Marriage is important to you, and he wants to keep you happy. He's not celebrating now, but he's willing to do a wedding if it will make you smile.That's as good as your gonna get.. he'll get wed, if you need it so bad... you love him, he loves you, he's willing to do what you want. Don't worry that he's not acting happy and dancing, it's not his favourite thing.Give him space and time, keep the relationship loving and sweet, stick by your bargain, small wedding, arrangements so he won't lose if you divorce, and make sure you don't nag or push him and he'll probably do it. How long to wait, I'd say a least a month or so before you discuss any wedding planning. Make that 3 months, yep, long enough to give him time, and short enough so he won't change his mind.
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female
reader, Miamine +, writes (8 December 2011):
"He does realize that marriage is important to me and said that he would get married if it would make me happy, but he also explained that it's going to take some time for him to warm up to the idea again."Translation... man wants to keep you, and man wants kids with you. He doesn't like marriage, it's a waste of time to him. Marriage is important to you, and he wants to keep you happy. He's not celebrating now, but he's willing to do a wedding if it will make you smile.That's as good as your gonna get.. he'll get wed, if you need it so bad... you love him, he loves you, he's willing to do what you want. Don't worry that he's not acting happy and dancing, it's not his favourite thing.Give him space and time, keep the relationship loving and sweet, stick by your bargain, small wedding, arrangements so he won't lose if you divorce, and make sure you don't nag or push him and he'll probably do it. How long to wait, I'd say a least a month or so before you discuss any wedding planning.
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (8 December 2011):
Have you talked with him about why he wants to have children with you?
I'm concerned that he misled you about his thoughts about marriage in the beginning of the relationship. It sounds like he just told you what you want to hear. He sounds like someone who won't be responsible in the long run.
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (8 December 2011): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionSo after confronting him this evening, he explained that marriage doesn't mean anything to him beyond a piece of paper and that he's committed to me. He does realize that marriage is important to me and said that he would get married if it would make me happy, but he also explained that it's going to take some time for him to warm up to the idea again.
Warm up to the idea? I'm still confused...any guys wanna give me their thoughts as to what this means?
Obviously, I need to give him some time and space to work this out in his head, but how long should I wait? I'm definitely holding off on getting pregnant until this is resolved.
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A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (7 December 2011): A lot of people these days want to live with a long-term partner, have a sex life, have kids, but never get married or merge their finances.
When a woman does this she is a liberated independent woman that many people admire. But when a man wants do the same thing, he gets called an immature commitment-phobic bad boyfriend & father.
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reader, anonymous, writes (7 December 2011): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionOdds, I think your point seems to make the most sense, knowing his personality. I suppose my biggest issue with all of this is that we DID talk about marriage at the beginning of our relationship and he did mention wanting to get married again someday. I'm just terribly confused that he wants a baby now, but not marriage. Maybe he's changed his mind since we started dating? And if so, why? I realize that marriage isn't the ultimate commitment; after all, I'm divorced too. But I think that celebrating our bond together in preparation of having a child would just honor our relationship. Since I originally posted this message, I briefly spoke with him saying I wanted to discuss this subject again, and he responded, "Oh god, really? ugh...guess we'll talk about it later."We'll see how the conversation goes, but it's insulting to me that the person that supposedly loves me feels so burdened when the subject of marrying me comes up. It makes me question his motives for wanting a baby with me.
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reader, anonymous, writes (7 December 2011): I think before you consider having children together you need to resolve the conflict of marriage.
One or other of you will HAVE to back down or end the relationship.
You need to work on your communication together, perhaps cousnelling will help with that, or perhaps you just need a weekend relaxing and hearing each other out without an argument.
There are alternatives to marriage...
What about having the relationship blessed?, and you changing your name? . The blessing wouldnt be a legal ceremony but it would be a commitment ceremony.
Would something like that meet you both halfway? Are you both willing to meet halfway?
From my point of view, My ex didnt believe in marriage, and we had 2 children together. When he decided the grass was greener (and firmer and pert and 15 yrs younger) elsewhere he left.
AS we werent married I was left with 2 children and NOTHING else. Our kids were young, and I was a "housewife". The house was in his name so he got to keep it. Even now 9 yrs along, I am still chasing him for proper child support.
Marriage would have meant I was in a much stronger position. I will NEVER settle again without marriage.
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female
reader, Miamine +, writes (7 December 2011):
Hey, OP, you could show him this post.. as you see, the aunts and uncles have done the arguing for you both and highlighted the most important points.
Maybe, somehow, with a lot of love and determination, you both could sort things out in a way to make you both happy. Marry or not to marry, to each side the argument is vitally important.
Myself, I'm in the corner with the kids, because they are the ones that matter in all of this.
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reader, anonymous, writes (7 December 2011): I think it's good to discuss these things at the very beginning of a relationship. If marriage is not in their plans and you want that then you know not to get too involved with them.
You have to decide whether you want what he is offering which is possibly a family of sorts without being married. He may have lost financial status due to his first divorce or there may be other reasons why he doesn't want to marry again, you need to ask him what his reasons are. Whatever the reasons you need to be clear with yourself whether you can be happy with this or not. It's only a year relationship so it might be better to end it if not.
Don't add children into this situation until you know that this is what you want. There are no guarantees whether you're married or not, but you don't want to start a family in a situation where you're already unhappy.
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (7 December 2011): The ACT like Love is a VERB- the ACT of marriage does show a deeper level of commitment to honour and uphold values that seem dying in todays world.
I find Marriage to be something of beauty, ultimate love, respect and honour. Even the VOWS, not just words, but VOWS, PROMISES hold meaning and value. A declaration to the world.
Just moving in with someone- not the same.
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female
reader, So_Very_Confused +, writes (7 December 2011):
"AS a side note, he probably hasn't thought of it, but just having kids with you and acting like a husband for a few years will make you common law spouses."
depends on the state... VERY few states recognize common law any more.
I get why a woman wants to marry and why Odds says what he says and it's true a divorce in any state is pretty simple if you want one... I've had two and I'm working on my third. GETTING Married is no guarantee of permanency...
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male
reader, Odds +, writes (7 December 2011):
The problem is (and ask him, I'm sure he'll agree) is that marriage is not a "commitment." Every state in the U.S. has no-fault divorce. You can literally walk away and take his children anytime you like, mail him the divorce papers, and that's it. What kind of security is that? What kind of commitment?
Prenups are no help either. They are routinely thrown out. In all likelihood, the more favorable you make the terms for him, the less likely the prenup is to actually get used in any future divorce.
There are only two meaningful differences between having children in or out of marriage: if he's married, he has a 15% chance of getting custody upon divorce (which drops to basically zero if you're a decent mother); on the other hand,if he's married, he is the "presumptive father" of any offspring - meaning if the kid isn't his (not trying to cast aspersions on you, just speaking generally), he is still liable for child support upon divorce.
What, exactly, does he gain by getting married? A man who wants children wants a legacy, he wants to be a father, and he wants to pass on his values to the next generation. Marriage used to ensure that; in its modern incarnation, marriage laws arguably make it less certain - and are at their very best only a marginal help.
That's why he loves and trusts you enough to want children with you, but distrusts the marriage system (that's an important distinction - he doesn't distrust you, he distrusts the system). Marriage isn't a commitment anymore. He probably assumes (correctly, in my opinion) that the better mother of his children is the one who will be with him whether married or not, rather than the one who makes children contingent on marriage.
AS a side note, he probably hasn't thought of it, but just having kids with you and acting like a husband for a few years will make you common law spouses.
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female
reader, Miamine +, writes (7 December 2011):
Many men don't want to get married nowadays, especially if they have been divorced. But then they feel hurt when the woman refuses to put them on the birth certificate or refuse to give the baby their surname. That's just the way it is. And who can blame them, they can get sex of a woman, they can get love, the can live with a woman, and get every single benefit of marriage. Why should they pay money on a wedding, or make such a commitment, when they lose nothing if they refuse, but may become financially liable if they divorce.
Anyway, like I said, that's the way it is. But your situation won't be helped by discussing why men think like this. Have you explained what you expect from marriage (pre-nup, small wedding etc) Have you explained to him why marriage is important to you, and why it's a good idea to have children within marriage.
If he still refuses to get married, are you going to still have children, are you still going to stay with him?
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reader, anonymous, writes (7 December 2011): Marriage for a woman, still equates security, fidelity, a deeper bond of friendship, love, commitment, devotion. Especially to someone who highly esteems marriage.
I think its time for Couples Counselling because it has come to the differing standards of what the value of marriage and children bring to a couple.
I see no other way around this issue other than it be addressed in counselling.
This way you learn how to communicate, listen, validate each others points of views. Learn as you grow together and better come to a win/win situation.
Bringing a child into a home where you are having doubts and wonder when the shoe will drop because there is no cemented security that marriage does provide a woman with old family values, is not a safe or loving home that will offer stability.
COUNSELLING ASAP
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male
reader, anonymous, writes (7 December 2011): He's been very clear with you about not wanting to get married to you. I don't think his decision is at all based on how you marry like eloping vs a wedding. He doesn't want to get married to you and having a baby with you isn't going to change his mind.
Now that he has made that clear to you, then you can decide if having kids out of wedlock with him is something you can be happy with. Don't do it hoping one day off in the future he will promote you to his wife because it's unlikely, especially if there is pressuring and guilt tripping involved.
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female
reader, aunt honesty  +, writes (6 December 2011):
 Everyone has different opinions on marriage. It is not a big deal any more for a couple to live out of wed lock and have families as it was years ago. Off course if it is important to you, well then it is a big deal.
I guess he has been there and experienced marriage and divorce and he has lost his belief in it. It sounds like he is committed to you and wants a family with you and to spend his life with you. But he does not want marriage.
Before you start having children you need to ask yourself just how important it is to you, and you need to talk to him about how you feel. If he refuses to marry you, well then you need to ask yourself what is more important to you marriage or this relationship. It is a tough decision I know but it is something you both need to talk about and be open and honest about it.
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